Bill Moyers: What is up with Obama continuing drone bombing in Pakistan?

[Helga Scow Stern]

As happy as we are with our new commander-in-chief, we must be vigilant and raise hell if something stupid, destructive, inhumane, and wrong is being done.

Here are some crude notes taken as I listened to the program:

Guests are Marilyn B. Young, professor of history, NYU, author of Bombing Civilians: A 20th Century History, ; and Pierre Sprey, former Pentagon official, contributor to America's Defense Meltdown: Pentagon Reform for President Obama and the New Congress.

The fact that the bombing is being carried out by unmanned, robotic aircraft, drones, brings extra problems. All the issues of bombing are multiplied with drones. Bombing is always politically popular because none of our own lives are lost as we decimate others. Using drones guarantees even less protest and scrutiny on the homefront. Nobody sees the devastation on the ground, except those hit, and they "turn rigidly hostile to our cause". We are dealing with a society based on honor. The Pashtun, 40 million strong, are an ancient people, spread across Afghanistan and Pakistan, they don't even recognize that border. They have a rigid, admirable code of honor, much stronger than their adherence to Islam. It is a matter of honor to resist being invaded, bombed, occupied, and killed. They are willing to die in unbelievable numbers to do that.

It's clear that the airstrikes are contributing to the destabilization in the region. It's clear that before the bombings, such an organization as the Pakistan Taliban didn't exist.

It doesn't work to first "fix" security, and then establish the government. Never works, and will work even less with the Pashtun.

Banner in Pakistan after Obama's election, Obama's First Gift to Pakistan, a few days after a drone bombing. People in America don't have any sense of how dangerous this is, bombing in these traditional Pashtun areas. We are forcing them to break the pact made that the Pashtuns would be left alone to govern themselves. This is incredibly dangerous, because it is putting Pakistan on the horns of a dilemma. As their crumbling government falls apart, the fact that they are a nuclear-armed country, could bring catastrophe, a nuclear war with India, for instance.

What is Obama doing, talking about respect on Arab TV, and condoning this bombing? Pentagon must have come to him, saying how essential it is to continue the bombing. It's not necessary for Obama to walk into the same trap as LBJ and Vietnam. In the main, the American public intelligent enough to respond, evaluate what is going on.

They'd applaud any senator or congressman who had the guts to say this. Can't deny "war on terror" without risking political disaster.

Their hearts sunk when they heard Obama talking this way in inaugural address.

60 thousand troops in Afghanistan, what Obama has promised, is a recipe for defeat. The Russians, more brutal than we, had 150,000, and they did not succeed. So what the hell is Obama thinking?

They show recording from McNamara, with faulty thinking of bombing Vietnam into submission. The moral dimension of bombing that destroys more civillians than military targets: stupid thinking, that you can destroy enemy morale, and that the bombers would always get through.

Has been proven thumpingly wrong in history, resoundingly to be a faulty military strategy.

Does it seem that Obama believes he can escape the outcome in Afghanistan, that GW Bush did not escape in Iraq?, Moyers asks.

Yes, he does think he can make it happen better, otherwise why has he signed off on drone attacks? No new thinking going on. Surrounded by people who tell him, we just need more troops. People beyond Karzai are much worse.

NYT said Afghanistan could quickly define the Obama presidency. They hope it's not true. Sprey's more pessimistic. He's already committed. Must find incredible political will to reverse course.

Jeez! It reminds me of a dream a friend had before the November election, a stunning dream, where Obama's main message was, We are at war with Afghanistan. And how betraying this felt.

Let's hope this very intelligent man can listen to reason beyond the old broken, dangerous strategies relied upon in this region.

[SergeyDovlatov]

1. The system is on the rails, you have to be especially brave ...

to buck the status quo.

Maybe Obama wants to spend his political captial trying to help the economy as opposed to fighting military industrial complex.

[Helga Scow Stern]

2. Yes, thanks for putting it into that perspective, I had thought of that,

but it still doesn't make it any easier to swallow. What good is our survival if at the death of innocents across the world?

I just don't think our collective soul can sustain this kind of dichotomy any more. We are crying out for consistency and integrity above all else. God, it is only basic sanity.

[RollWithIt]

6. Or maybe, as he's always said, the real "war on terrorism" which is being renamed, exists in...

Afghanistan and the tribal regions of Pakistan. I mean, anyone who has ever read maybe one book on Afghanistan or Pakistan would understand the importance of the region. If only Bush had been smart and finished this from the start.

[SergeyDovlatov]

11. importance of the region for what? oil pipelines?

[RollWithIt]

13. As I said, just one book...

Kind of went over your head?

[SergeyDovlatov]

14. dude, you are out of your league. I grew up in Central Asia and a

lot of my friends served in afganistan in the 80s.

I know about the region first hand.

[RollWithIt]

16. Huh? All your friends are Russians?

Whatever. Stop lying.

[SergeyDovlatov]

18. Lol. I am half russian half uzbek and grew up in Tajikistan, USSR

of course I have a lot of russian / uzkek / tajik / kyrgyz friends.

Я из города Дюшанбе. У меня много русских / узбекских / таджикских друзей.
Приятно познакомиться дорогой американский друг!

Here is a reconciliating thought. I was somewhat brazen in my previous posting. It was just the irony that somebody is asking me to read a book on afganistan when I lived next door to afganistan.

[navarth]

31. welcome to DU, Sergey. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

33. ...

What the ... FOX! Comrade?!? :-) :hi:

Я из города Дюшанбе. У меня много русских.

[jeanpalmer]

19. The "war on terrorism" is a phony war

Bush had to devise it because he got caught asleep at the wheel on 9-11.

What he should have done is focus on Al Qaeda, and Bin Laden in particular, and those involved in the planning of 9-11. With a narrowly focused police action, using intelligence, small military and police units. Instead he started a regional war. Big mistake. The rest of Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9-11. There was no reason to attack it.

Now Obama wants to go deeper into the quagmire. He's doing exactly what he accused Bush of doing -- taking his eye off the original target, Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. In place of attacking Iraq like Bush, Obama is just substituting Afghanistan. The result will be the same.

Anyone who has read history knows the fate of armies that try to subdue the local population in that area. Obama apparently wants to find out the hard way. I think the guests on Bill Moyer's show were correct -- Obama is creating his own Iraq.

[Hippo_Tron]

36. We're still going to build bombs whether or not we drop them on Pakistan

Slashing the military budget in half would be a fight against the military industrial complex. Stopping drone bombings in Pakistan isn't.

[Uncle Joe]

37. But he may fall in to the same trap as LBJ.

While Johnson would go on to spend his political capital to do great things for civil rights, he failed to fight the military industrial complex; of which Dwight Eisenhower warned against in his farewell address, thus we became bogged down in the swamps of Vietnam and Johnson became so unpopular he didn't run for reelection; which resulted with Nixon coming to power.

I would hate to see history repeat it self.

[navarth]

3. yes I'd like to hear the answer to that too. n/t

[Helga Scow Stern]

4. This is a response I received after the inauguration from a young Pakistani friend,

a single mother living in New York City:


Gaza and its people are on fire; Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan and many parts of Pakistan are all suffering. I don't know what Obama coming into power means, what I do know is that I am very cynical. My people are being killed, looted as if they were less then cheap change. It seems that there is no regard for their/ our life. Its bloody free for all! So much blood continues to spill, I wonder what will it take, perhaps more? What I do know is that this isn't about religion. I know there are people on both sides whose hearts are shattering and crying out for all of this to finally stop. From watching democracy now, its clear that there is much discussion in Israel then there is here in this country. Its sad that the US has so much power. Smtimes I can't reconcile how and why I live here.
Lately I have been taking my daughter to protests and peace walks. It saddens me so much to see her trying to comprehend death and destruction. She is always asking, talking about someone or the other's death. Her ears pick up the word death and blood so quickly and with such intrigue, it scares me. Its difficult to shelter her from all the violence around us, no matter it permeates somehow; too many children have been killed!

[EFerrari]

10. Very long time no read you.

I hope things get better for Pakistan from here on out. :(

[Helga Scow Stern]

23. I didn't have anything to say until now....

But I have watched what others have had to say, and have been happy to see your frequent posts, speaking out.

And I have a thank you card from Andy on my ancestor altar.

[napi21]

5. I don't know what the target was in Pakistan and I don't you do either.

I hate the killing of anyone, but I admit, if Bin Laden were to be killed or captured in one of these attacks I wouldn't shed any tears! Maybe I just have a vindictive bone, but he has made a lot of videos saying he wants to kill all westerners ya know. Before I condem Obama for authorizing the drones, I will wait to hear what the target was.

[EFerrari]

8. We know he bombed Pakistan because that's where the dead people were

when the dust cleared.

[napi21]

12. Of course that's WHERE! Not WHY! n/t

[EFerrari]

15. Sorry, I misread. The reporting says there were 8 suspected fighters

and the rest were civilians. And now the families of those people are our enemies. I don't think this strategy is going to work for Obama.

[ClayZ]

24. You and me both.

There must be a BETTER way! I say, end the violence!

Drop a net on them or something. Drop food. QUIT KILLING CHILDREN.


I really do not want to have to march in protests again this year.


I will keep my peace flag flying!

K and R

[Grey]

7. It was a great show....

Bill asked some important questions.

[EFerrari]

9. Just on here now. n/t

[LuckyLib]

38. This is worth watching all the way through. We are wading into another quagmire,

picking up Bush's "war on terror" and drawing in Pakistan to boot. As the speakers emphasized, Pakistan is a nuclear player, so when we get our hands dirty there, we're in big trouble. What a mess.

[EFerrari]

17. "By calling it a war, we have glorified al Qaida".

Boy, is that the truth.

[Radical Activist]

20. I'm surprised I never heard about this issue

until after Obama took office.

[seven eagle]

21. Dream

I forgot all about the dream i had. I remember it now Obama was declaring war with Afghanistan and he was on TV and it was
in Sept. or at the beginning of school. It was very matter of fact and it made me feel that we were entering another Iraq.

[Helga Scow Stern]

22. Thanks, seven eagle, for recounting this dream.

Back to school seems like at the beginning, like now?

AND WELCOME TO DU!!!

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[spanone]

25. gates & petraeas....bu$h* babies

[AllentownJake]

26. It was his idea to begin with?

Seriously were some liberals not paying attention during this election

[AllentownJake]

27. It was his idea to begin with?

Seriously were some liberals not paying attention during this election

[ClarkUSA]

28. Probably Barack is attacking what HUMINT tells him are Bin Laden's Al-Qaeda strongholds

He said he would do so during the campaign trail, with or without Pakistan's approval.

[dcindian]

29. Because the innocents who are being killed by the US don't vote.

Or are not part of his family. I am sure if it were in one of the US cities it would not occur and that makes it simply wrong.

[elleng]

30. Where did THIS come from?

'It's clear that before the bombings, such an organization as the Pakistan Taliban didn't exist.'

[debbierlus]

32. Kick.

[Township75]

34. If you pay attention, you will notice it isn't nearly as outrageous when a Dem is doing it.

Innocent civilians, war policy, and other things really just don't matter and are in fact irrelevant. The reason is simple - Democrat. When I think of that, I really don't care about who gets blown the fuck apart, how old they are, or if they even deserved it or not.

(that is sarcasm)

[Helga Scow Stern]

35. Did anyone see Dan Rather on Rachel Maddow this week?

He was talking about this from a military point of view. I think I heard him say, When the snow melts in the mountain passes , there's going to be a lot of killing .....did anyone else hear that?

[zulchzulu]

39. Well we could just send our troops into Waziristan to get slaughtered...

:crazy:

I'm not crazy about the Afghanistan war from the perspective that fighting the Pushtan in Waziristan is pretty hopeless... and doing it via hand-to-hand combat would be bordering on suicide.

I love Bill Moyers. But on this issue, what is his solution? Leave the Pushtan to arm or join Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Waziristan? Wave our Utopia flag and offer a peace pipe while they just ask us to lean our head forward and stay nice and steady so they can behead us?

OK... leave Afghanistan... right? The Taliban should be allowed to slaughter women who dare laugh, let alone know how to read...