Catholic Church is attacking Obama already; threatens to close Catholic Hospitals

[Miss_Underestimated]

I attended Catholic Mass with a friend this evening and was horrified beyond belief, slthough it was to be expected. Instead of the usual sermon telling us what we believe, this week the priest spent in excess of 30 minutes on FOCA. The Freedom of Choice Act, which will soon cross President Obama's desk. He praised the Bush administration and said that we should pray for Obama because he would need it due to the trouble he would be getting from the Catholic Church. The priest elaborated on how FOCA would force all hospitals to provide abortions and then he went on to describe in gory details what a partial birth abortion is and added that it would no longer be required that an MD administer an abortion, that other lesser trained individuals could do so.. Then he said passage of FOCA would result in all Catholic Hospitals closing down. Then he elaborated on how members of the congregation should write to their Senators and Representative and warn them against passing this Act. A group of acolytes passed out sheets of 3 postcards containing the following message:

At this time of serious national challenges, Americans should unite to serve the good of all, born and unborn. The Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA), the most radical and divisive pro-abortion bill ever introduced in Congress, would create a "fundamental right" to abortion that government could not limit but would have to support. FOCA would overturn many existing widely-supported policies, including laws protecting parental involvement and conscience rights and those preventing partial-birth abortion and taxpayer funding of abortion. Please oppose FOCA or any similar measure, and retain laws against federal funding and promotion of abortion. As your constituent, I would appreciate a written response telling me how you would vote on these matters.

Name, address

Congregants were ordered to fill out and sign their names to the postcards and turn them back in to the acolytes immediately, and the priest said that the church would put stamps on them and send them off this week.

After googling "Tax Exempt Status" I found that this church should have its tax exempt status pulled according to the following:

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/overview.htm

6. No Political Activity For or Against Candidates Permitted
Church tax exemptions are in jeopardy if an organization engages in direct political activity either against or on behalf of a political candidate or in an attempt to directly influence the passage of particular legislation. Churches and religious organizations, just as any other tax-exempt charitable organization, are free to comment on any social, political, or moral issues. They may not, however, speak out for or against political candidates if they wish to continue being tax-exempt. Losing tax-exempt status can mean both having to pay income taxes and that donations to the group will not be tax deductible by the donors.

More: Backlash Against Tax Exemption Policies

Court Cases:

United States v. Christian Echoes National Ministry
Branch Ministries v. Rossotti

[FrenchieCat]

1. Aww Geez.....

[janx]

2. ...

:hug:

:rofl:

[Danger Mouse]

4. I'd hit it.

[Sultana]

17. Perfect, lol

[tabbycat31]

3. tax the shit out of them

that would fill a big hole in our budget.

[Critters2]

5. The church hasn't violated its tax exempt status.

Churches cannot take a stand for or against a party or specific candidate. They can speak out against legislation and take stands on issues of public policy.

Obama is not a candidate. We are free to speak against the president, even from the pulpit. I did it during the Bush Administration. Now I have to allow the same freedom to the other side.

[davidinalameda]

9. thank you

for bring some facts to this discussion

[Miss_Underestimated]

11. This is considered lobbying and therefore places the tax exempt status in

question

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:d1b8k190T4gJ:www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf+tax+exempt+status+churches&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=safari#7

see pages 7-9 for explanation

[Critters2]

13. No, it doesn't.

The IRS is very clear, with those of us who deal with these things professionally, about their interpretation of this. What they always tell us--and AU gives the same advice--is that we can do nearly anything but endorse or attack a party or candidate. I've gone to IRS workshops on this. I know how they interpret it.

Churches are allowed to lobby. Hell, most denominations have offices in Washington chock full of lobbyists. Mine does, and we're a small denomination.

[elleng]

12. ???

"or in an attempt to directly influence the passage of particular legislation."

[Critters2]

15. Fine. Call the IRS.

Watch them yawn.

[lynne]

37. You need the rest of the sentence for its meaning -

- "Church tax exemptions are in jeopardy if an organization engages in direct political activity either against or on behalf of a political candidate or in an attempt to directly influence the passage of particular legislation."

Key portion of the sentence is "EITHER AGAINST OR ON BEHALF OF A POLITICAL CANDIDATE". No Candidate = No Foul.

[elleng]

55. Not sure about that;

OR IN AN ATTEMPT TO DIRECTLY INFLUENCE THE PASSAGE OF PARTICULAR LEGISLATION.

Where does the quote come from?

[genna]

56. I thought so. Churches can say abortion is wrong...fight this legislation

Now, I doubt doctors or nurses will be forced to perform abortions. I think that is over the top.

[BlooInBloo]

6. wtf are you talking about? They attacked him loooong before he was elected.

Besides - only fools care what churches say.

[Miss_Underestimated]

7. congresspeople take seriously the mail they receive and numbers make a

difference, not whether or not the mail is coming from church people

[mmonk]

33. Unless its Democrats ignoring pleas from the activists in their base.

[defendandprotect]

36. We need to get money out of our elections -- and that includes corporations . . .

in any way that they participate -- from privatized debates to the money

they throw into the system legally --- and illegally, buying our elected officials.

When citizens individually give money to candidates there is NO way to have any

leverage over what those candidates/officials do. When lobbyists/corporations give

money you can bet they have leverage over them.

So giving money to candidates via internet -- EXCEPT for Howard Dean -- simply leaves

any citizen giving with no way to influence the outcomes.

Obama I think got something over $800 million thru the internet -- !!!

So -- when elites/corporations give you can be sure they get something back.

When individual citizens give you can be sure they'll have little influence.

[defendandprotect]

35. Come on . . . these are printed postcards . . . ? Someone must ask who's organized this -- !!!

[napi21]

8. I don't know where you are, but I grew up in Pgh. There were 4

catholic hospitals. THEY ALL CLOSED! Not because there were any forced procedures, but because of LACK OF MONEY! They're all gone now. I've lived in 5 different states and there were NO Catholic hospitals in any of them. The hospital business just got way too expensive, and a hospital cannot keep up without hugh investments in new very expensive medical equipment!

I suggest whatever hospitals this priest was talking about, he was floating this "they're all close" balloon so he'd have an excue when they do close, even it would have had NOTHIBG to do with frowned upon procedures.

BTW, I don't believe ANYONE will be FORCED to perform an abortion! He's obviously ignoring the "C" in FOCA!!! The word is CHOICE sir, NOT mandatory!!!!

[LiberalFighter]

21. Have they paid off all the lawsuits yet? That might be one of the real reasons.

[atreides1]

23. You might have a point

The church is being forced to close these hospitals because of its financial instability, and instead of telling the truth the powers that be will use FOCA as the reason why they are shutting down their hospitals.

[CatholicEdHead]

10. It is a national push with a postcard drive

The Archbishop of St Paul/Mpls has pushed this in his recent letter in the weekly Archdiocese newspaper.

You plug this type of crap to get ahead in the church if you are clergy.

:puke:

http://thecatholicspirit.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1100&Itemid=108

[defendandprotect]

38. If they want tax-exempt status, they have to NOT engage in politics . . .

[rwheeler31]

14. Where do you live, this is nutty.

[Thrill]

16. The election results should prove how irrelevant they are when it comes to Obama

:)

They threw everything during the election

[shrike]

47. Obama won the Catholic vote n/t

[Thrill]

58. I know. Thats why I said the Catholic Church is irrelavant against Obama

[shrike]

59. Gotcha n/t

[shrike]

48. self-delete

[ChazII]

18. No surprise here. n/t

[defendandprotect]

19. A few things: First, what in the hell do we need the RCC running hospitals for....????

Nationalize the hospitals --- and get rid of religious fanatics and their screwed

up notions of life -- refusing information about condoms to AIDS patients!

Turning away women who are having a miscarriage because they might have self-induced

an abortion!! Denying all church members the right to freedom of conscience, even

in regard to how many children they will have!!!

I think the Catholic hospitals are standing in the way of sanity ---

and I think the sermon attack Obama really says what Randall Terry is saying -- i.e.,

that the anti-abortion movement has failed.

They failed in the begging by warring on women and women's health --

and they failed in the end when they decided that "pro-life" should murder clinic doctors

and clinic personnel!!

And I think they know there isn't going to be room for any more sermons attacking homosexuals!!!

I hope that anyone who heard such an attack would walk out on the sermon -- wouldn't they????


This is a failed church with many questionable things having gone on since the time that

Pope John XXIII -- beloved by the world -- instituted Vatican II to make the church a democracy

and gave the Church a compassionate and humane face. Pope John XXIII told members to decide

for themselves whether or not to use birth control using their own personal consciences.

Pope John also made clear that you didn't need middle men for forgiveness -- you didn't

need confessionals. The right wing fanatics within the church who want to keep control over

women's bodies, who want to keep the war on women going, rose up to take over the RCC.

As someone said a long time ago "this is the last yelp of a dying mule."


PS: If they're politicizing the church --- then we're headed towards taxing the church!

[LiberalFighter]

22. I wouldn't necessarily say they should nationalize hospitals

but rather at the least make them non-profit like they use to be.

[bluedawg12]

26. Catholic Hosps are "Non-Profit" presently - except they send the poor to collection,

own outside businesses, some not related to medicine, buy up other hospitals and act very much like a business with a rw theocratic agenda.

[defendandprotect]

34. At least not profit -- but nothing wrong with nationalizing hospitals, either . . .

especially if we want to get to single payer health care ---

and SANE drug pricing -- !!!

[caraher]

27. Yes, getting religion out of the hospital biz is probably good idea

I have a friend who was raped and went to a Catholic hospital (she didn't realize until she got there). She wanted a morning after pill - no dice. She made sure to announce her intention to have an abortion should she be pregnant on her way out the door...

She was not, fortunately... but her treatment added insult to injury

[salguine]

20. Why? Did Obama pledge a crackdown on institutionalized child molestation?

[Lugnut]

24. Yeah, hello?

There are NO Catholic hospitals left in this area as all of them have either closed or been purchased by health care corporations. The local churches are in the process of following suit. There used to be 25+ parishes in this area. Within the next year-and-a-half there will be 3. The Catholic church in this area is on the verge of irrelevance.

[pmorlan1]

25. I would have walked out

How creepy. I would have walked out. Who knows someone else whose sitting there uncomfortable may just walk out too. It actually makes me think of the lyrics to Alice's Restaurant


You know, if
one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and
they won't take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony,
they may think they're both faggots and they won't take either of them.
And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in
singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an
organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said
fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and
walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.

[Hekate]

28. The Catholic hospital in my area was very well-regarded & had a wonderful birthing center...

It closed a number of years ago for financial reasons that had nothing to do with issues of reproductive choice. My orthopedic surgeon's office is across the parking lot from that former hospital, and at least one of my 3 shoulder surgeries was done there.

The number of hospitals everywhere is diminishing -- and it's all due to money. I'm sorry, but this campaign by the Catholic Church in the US is bogus, it's specious, and I wonder how many of the priests are aware that they are peddling a falsehood? (or, to be fair, a half-truth at best)

Hekate

[shrike]

49. You might be interested in what I posted down thread

Considering the source, it's an interesting piece.

Rumors aside, FOCA legislation no threat to Catholic health care

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0900402.htm
By Nancy Frazier O'Brien
Catholic News Service

WASHINGTON (CNS) -- Internet rumors to the contrary, no Catholic hospital in the United States is in danger of closing because of the Freedom of Choice Act.

As a matter of fact, the Freedom of Choice Act died with the 110th Congress and, a week after the inauguration of President Barack Obama, has not been reintroduced.

But that hasn't kept misleading e-mails from flying around the Internet, warning of the dire consequences if Obama signs FOCA into law and promoting a "FOCA novena" in the days leading up to Inauguration Day.

The Catholic Health Association "is strongly committed to opposing FOCA and (the board) is unanimous that we would do all we could to oppose it," said Bishop Robert N. Lynch of St. Petersburg, Fla., an elected member of the CHA board of trustees since June 2006.

"But there is no plan to shut down any hospital if it passes," he added in a Jan. 26 telephone interview. "There's no sense of ominous danger threatening health care institutions."

[rug]

29. Right wing propaganda has hijacked the church on this issue and, as usual, it's wrong.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0900402.htm

[moriah]

30. FOCA would not cause Catholic hospitals to shut down.

Catholic hospitals are private entities. There is no law that can be made that would force them to perform abortions.

The proposed law specifically says that *government* cannot interfere or deny a woman's right to choose, nor can it discriminate against a person who chooses to exercise their right via "regulation or provision of benefits, facilities, services, or information".

The moment that the Catholic Church constitutes "government" in this country is the moment I take a hike. Literally. To Canada.

[4lbs]

31. Sorry, you aren't allowed to apply facts and logic when it comes to religious fervor.

n/t

[Enthusiast]

32. Why didn't Bush outlaw abortion?

They had a majority for 6 years!

[WinkyDink]

41. Bwahaha! Because it's merely an EXTREMELY CYNICAL election-year "issue" to get the one-issue voters!

[Enthusiast]

44. Exactly! My point exactly.

They have no intention of changing abortion laws.

Funny how The Democrats enacted the fair pay law as soon as they got a majority.

[WinkyDink]

45. When I taught, a number of my "gifted" juniors were RW'ers. I once told them not to hold their

breath waiting for a Republican President to ask for a repeal of Roe v. Wade.

[Enthusiast]

53. And now there is a fervor surrounding

abortion and Obama, as if he is somehow responisble for an increase in the rate of abortion. These people can allow themselves to be convinced of anything.

[gmoney]

39. Yes, let hundreds die of illness and injury instead!

We'll show them... shutter our multimillion dollar hospital and crawl back into the dark ages.

[defendandprotect]

40. No . .. do what other countries have done . .. NATIONALIZE the hospitals . ..

[WinkyDink]

42. How Christian!

[tritsofme]

43. FOCA could not clear the Senate in this Congress. It would be a very close vote in the House as

well. Though there probably are the votes for narrow passage there.

FOCA is far too controversial for President Obama to expend much political capital on so early in his first term.

This is just bullshit scare tactics by the church.

[shrike]

46. Rumors aside, FOCA legislation no threat to Catholic health care

I don't normally post stories from Catholic News Service, but considering the source, this story is interesting:

Rumors aside, FOCA legislation no threat to Catholic health care

By Nancy Frazier O'Brien
Catholic News Service

WASHINGTON (CNS) -- Internet rumors to the contrary, no Catholic hospital in the United States is in danger of closing because of the Freedom of Choice Act.

As a matter of fact, the Freedom of Choice Act died with the 110th Congress and, a week after the inauguration of President Barack Obama, has not been reintroduced.

But that hasn't kept misleading e-mails from flying around the Internet, warning of the dire consequences if Obama signs FOCA into law and promoting a "FOCA novena" in the days leading up to Inauguration Day.

The Catholic Health Association "is strongly committed to opposing FOCA and (the board) is unanimous that we would do all we could to oppose it," said Bishop Robert N. Lynch of St. Petersburg, Fla., an elected member of the CHA board of trustees since June 2006.

"But there is no plan to shut down any hospital if it passes," he added in a Jan. 26 telephone interview. "There's no sense of ominous danger threatening health care institutions."

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0900402.htm



There seems to be a mish-mash of fact and rumor going on here: it's definitely true the bishops got this postcard thing going; something I I did not agree with, btw.
A lot of people, clergy included, apparently fell for the crazy rumors mentioned in the article. People I know were telling me all sorts of things; I wondered where the heck they were coming from. Now I know.

[Jackeens]

50. Let's do a deal with the Catholic Church...

...when they stop covering up child abuse, sheltering abusers and preaching hate against sections of society then we'll listen to their thoughts on social issues.

Deal? ;-)

[rvablue]

51. I call BS on this post: "Congregants were ordered" .... c'mon.

[Miss_Underestimated]

52. It was a form of coercion. The priest has the power to excommunicate

members of the congregation and he made it a deliberate part of the service to have members publicly accept the postcards, fill them out and turn them in as he observed them.

[rvablue]

54. Riiggghhhttt........n/t

[cooolandrew]

57. Oh man religion just keeps dragging us into the swamp. The poor the sick that's all their business >

should be it's meant to guide their own lives not dictate other peoples.