Is it redistribution?

[busymom]

Here me out.

If you don't pay taxes because you earn too little (for whatever reason) then you will be given a check that is not a rebate....

If you earn 200k/year, you will pay out over 42% of your income to social security and federal taxes....if you live in a blue state, you will also pay state taxes, be subject to the alternative minimum tax, not be able to take your children or the interest on your home off on your taxes...and despite the fact that you pay not just a higher percentage of your income in taxes...but a good sized dollar amount, you won't get a penny and you will be seen as the bad guy for going to 8 years of college (with loans that you are also still paying off) and working 80 hours a week for the last 10 years. The American dream?

I 'get it' that people who earn more feel resentful. My brother will get a rebate check....but he doesn't pay taxes because he earns too little. He didn't graduate from high school, doesn't have job training, lives with 3 other guys and plays computer games all night and is 35. My sister will get a tax increase, no rebate and she has worked so hard that it makes me upset for her.

There has to be incentive for hard work too.

Don't we all want the opportunity to earn more if we work hard and play by the rules?

There has to be a middle ground...

[tekisui]

1. Nice post, rush.

:eyes:

[busymom]

2. So...you value talking about all sides of issues?

Good to know....Hannity

[tekisui]

6. I dismiss the right-wing memes that framed your post.

[alwysdrunk]

140. Right wing meme's? The OP was citing real life examples.

Just ignore the question and resort to labels so you don't have to discuss it.

[tekisui]

147. Those people may be real, but their 'facts' are right wing propaganda.

[CTyankee]

3. In what state can you not take dependant child deduction and mortgage interest deduction off of your

FEDERAL taxes? Some new rule about blue states nobody has ever heard of (except you)?

[busymom]

9. Minnesota! If you are in a blue state, earn more than 150k then

you are subject to the alternative minimum tax and can't deduct children or mortgage interest.

[Every Man A King]

31. Anyone bumping up against the AMT

is getting plenty of exemptions, and probably being very creative with them too.

[busymom]

43. Nope. You are dead wrong.

Educate yourself on this issue. My sister own a modest home and has no other deductions...no big investments except her retirement fund which she and her employer pay into each month. That is it...no vacation home, fancy cars, hidden money accounts...nada...nothing.

[joeglow3]

111. Educate yourself

AMT gets middle income people in high taxing states, as state income taxes are not allowed as a deduction in calculating the AMT.

[CTyankee]

92. The state of Minnesota has the power to say what your federal deductions

will or won't be?

[joeglow3]

112. No, they dictate THEIR state taxes...

...which are not allowed to be deducted for AMT. Thus, high taxing states tend to throw a lot of their middle income citizens into the AMT.

[CTyankee]

123. I am not sure that is the case in blue Connecticut. n/t

[damonm]

115. Not so at all. My wife and I are in CA,

earn >$150K, have never been hit with the AMT, and DO deduct children and mortgage interest.
Unless CA is no longer a Blue State, wich would be HUGE news to us...

Sounds like you need a better tax preparer - I got people.

[Bettie]

4. The incentive for hard work is a better life for your family....

So, you pay more taxes, but you have more.

My DH and I have worked hard and we know that it is our duty to pay our taxes. Even after paying taxes, we still have more than many people ad your sister probably does too.

Sounds like a bunch of neo-con claptrap to me, frankly.

[busymom]

15. So how much is enough....

in your opinion. How much should someone be allowed to earn after investing so much time and money in their education and profession? Seriously, this is a woman who will get out of bed at 3am and go into the hospital to operate on someone with no health insurance and not complain about it...not once. I have so much admiration and respect for her.

And if she had more money, she would spend it too...that would stimulate the economy too. Or...does she not deserve more?

[Bettie]

74. I'm not sure I understand your question....

How much is enough? Enough taxes? Enough money?

She's "allowed" to earn whatever her employer is willing to pay her, but she's obligated to pay taxes on that income. That is how the system works.

My point is that I don't see taxes as a disincentive to work. Would your sister work harder if she paid less in taxes? Is she working less because she pays more? Did she take a job paying less because she didn't want to pay more taxes? I don't think so, she's doing what she does (and she sounds like an admirable person, really).

Even after taxes, your sister is probably doing better than some people, not as well as others, just like the rest of us. Taxes pay for the infrastructure and, yes, for the less fortunate among us.

[busymom]

86. taxes can be disincentive

and so can exorbitant malpractice rates. Just try and find a trauma surgeon or OB to deliver you in some places in Florida and Georgia. When you have to wait an extra couple of months for the doctor appointments because your doctor has decided to scale back because it isn't worth all of the headache, paperwork and effort, and the hospital has cut back on hiring docs to save money.....then come back to this thread.

It can be disincentive.

[Moostache]

141. AMEN and thank you!!!

This whole concept that people need to be "incentivized" to work by reaping disproportionate rewards is a canard!

No one in their right mind (no pun intended) would EVER say "you know what, I am capable of and have the opportunity to make more money, but damn it, I just don't want to pay any more in taxes, so you know, fuck it...I guess I just won't do anything instead...yeah...THAT will show them! Ha...they'll be sorry soon...sorry when I am gone..."

That is crazy, but it is the essence of the "argument from incentive" that gets trotted out whenever tax cuts, rebates or fair taxation burdens is involved...

Look at it another way - who NEEDS the social services and protections of civilization more - a worker getting laid off and scraping by on sustenance level hand-outs or a business-owner / high-paid employee who relies on the infrastructure of the state and city to arrive at work and on the social order of society to not be mugged, killed or captured by roaming bandits? You MAKE more from the system and its attendant accompaniments, then you SHOULD PAY more to the system, period, end of discussion.

[Mass]

5. Everybody pay taxes: if not income taxes, payroll taxes and sales tax.

Those who do not pay income taxes were kept out of help while they are the ones who were going to spend it first: they need it.

It is not a bonus. It is an help to get the economy running again.

if you need an tax incentive to do the right thing and build yourself a comfortable life, you're pretty mixed up.

[busymom]

14. And some people pay more than their fair share.....

I'm not talking about CEO's who screwed their employees and made millions each year.

[Clio the Leo]

27. And $10 worth of sales tax costs a LOT more to some people...

.... than it does to others.

There are always tax DEDUCTIONS for donations made to charitable institutions ...... just a thought.

[busymom]

45. Not if you pay the AMT there aren't.

But...some people donate anyway even though they don't get a tax deduction...they do it because they believe in the cause.

[Fovea]

7. Ok, I have heard you out.

Is your sister earning more than your brother?

You should not have had to pay a penny for 4 years of college,
the corporations and government who can't exist without knowledge workers
get your knowledge for too little. You work too hard.

That is not generally taxes, that is private debt.

How big is your sister's house?
How many cars do they own?
Cable?
Broadband?

You are fundamentally confused.
There should not be an incentive for you to work two full time jobs.

[busymom]

12. Yes.

My sister earns more than my brother...earn is the operative word here. She works 80 hours/week, went to 8 years of college and trained while earning next-to-nothing for 5 more years. She owes $160,000 for her educational debt which she can not take off on her taxes, has 3 children (and gets not tax relief for that) and is subject to the alternative minimum tax.

She and her husband each have used cars, they live in an average middle class home and they do not take big vacations or purchase a lot of big things. Every extra dollar they get they put into a college fund for their children or retirement.

She is a surgeon...and a good one...she is passionate about it...but even though her salary seems high to me, after she pays taxes etc it's not that great for what she does and how hard she works.

I guess everyone here wants communisms...you know..surgeon earns the same as shoe salesman, etc. My brother wastes his nights playing video games, works a very...unusual and low-paying job, and is content to live his life from moment to moment...At 35, he's got nothing put away for retirement and he refuses to even think about taking on even an extra part-time job because he wants his free time. My sister can't even talk to him anymore. She basically works two full-time jobs.

[Every Man A King]

22. Your family sounds like alot of snobs except for your brother n/t

[busymom]

24. My 35 year old pothead brother who plays video games

all night is your hero? LOL Then color me snob. I love him, but it doesn't mean that I have to agree with his lifestyle....and...my sister is a snob for working so hard all of these years and coming in in the middle of the night to treat patients with no insurance and not complaining...about anything except how high her student loan payments are (that she'll be paying until she retires), how much she pays in malpractice insurance and how high her taxes are?

She and her husband drive used cars (hers is 9 years old!)...but they are hondas, so...that probably makes her anti-american too.

[endarkenment]

39. wow you've got the whole litany down

malpractice pot heads student loans

turn off the hate radio

[busymom]

52. Turn off my FAMILY!

[busymom]

28. Ha...what's even funnier is that

he is a hard core, pick-up driving republican with a Bush sticker on the back of his crappy, rusty, falling apart Mazda pick-up truck. He voted for McCain, which I told him was against his self-interests....and my sister....voted for Obama.

Go figure!!!!!

[Fovea]

134. Red baiting herring

thank you for playing.

[Still Sensible]

8. A valid point, but

the tax relief included in the Recovery Act is not in the form of a rebate check a la the Bush tax cuts. It is via a reduction in payroll tax taken out of the paychecks of people who are working. As such, yes people that don't earn enough to pay income tax will get $25 or more in each paycheck.

[treestar]

10. Some people don't need incentive to work hard, in fact, they love it

They in fact could work less and leave the work for others to do, but hog it all. How many people I've met who brag about how many hours they work I can't tell you.

We have a national, puritanical, fanatical attitude towards the concept of work. People have gotten ulcers and bragged about it.

We need to learn to get a life.

I'm not going to be judgmental towards your brother. If he earns little, it is because his labor is worth little on the market. That's not an advantage. Somebody is going to end up with the lower paying jobs. It is dumb to be resentful of those who have less than we do.

[busymom]

13. I'm not resentful....

But I bet you want your doctor available to you if you are sick.....even if they already put in their 40 hours? Should they be compensated for that or ... not. Pay doctors less...but then wipe out their 150,000 + in debt and get rid of malpractice.

[treestar]

23. I'd rather have several doctors

Each of them working 8 hours a day. I don't want a burnt out tired doctor, that's for sure.

Better to have 3 doctors working 8 hours each. Instead of two working 12. One extra job, and they all make a living.

[busymom]

25. Agree...then....

eliminate all medical school debt and malpractice.

That being said, my sister would argue that the more procedures you do, the better you are at them...and you have to operate a lot to get really good. She actually worked over 100 hours/week during her residency which is insane to me. She defended it though by saying that it was the only way for her to get skilled. As a resident, she was already paying back some of her student loans and they didn't earn much...especially for the city that they were living in at the time...

In Germany, for example, doctors earn less...but they don't have to pay for their education, can't be sued out of the ass so don't pay malpractice and take more years to complete residency training because they are paid enough during their training to live on...there, they work 40 hour weeks for longer periods of time.

In the US though, we have strapped people with such educational debt that they can't afford not to work harder and earn more. It's too bad. But it is how it is...so in the spirit of fairness, I say we eliminate student loan debt for everyone.

[Every Man A King]

30. Wouldn't getting rid of "all medical school debt"

be re-distribution? What about all of those poor docs who worked 3 times harder than your sister and paid their loans back already. Why do you hate hard working doctors?

[busymom]

33. Educational debt for everyone

has increased across the board something like 400% the rate of inflation over the last several years. It would suck for docs who have already paid off their debt...but I'd rather see all educational debt for everyone...doctors, lawyers, teachers...you name it...at least cut in half. Anyone who works hard to further their education and better their lives should not be saddled with huge student loan payments.

I have a friend whose daughter is a teacher who currently owes 2 times her annual salary in student loans....she went to a good state school....but it's ridiculous that she has to live at home with her parents after finishing college and starting a real job.

Why do you hate people who work hard so much?

[Every Man A King]

34. Hey im the communisms guy

I want free education for all. But you only want to help the lazy doctors who haven't paid off their debts already.

[busymom]

40. oh bullshit...I want to help everyone...doctor, lawyer or indian chief

I just don't believe in taking from those who have more to give to those who have less. I believe in creating jobs with living wages, capping executive salaries, universal healthcare, and low-cost education for all. I also believe that hard work should pay off financially though whether you are Bill Gates, a scientist, teacher or doctor...and I believe you should compensate people for their knowledge. I don't think a McDonald's drive-thru employee should earn the same amount of money as a Biology professor who has a PhD and did years of post-doc, for example. I guess that makes me a snob....oh...and I worked the drive-thru for years to help pay for my husband's education early in our marriage...just so you know.

[endarkenment]

42. what about pakistani chefs?

why do you leave them out?

[busymom]

46. so true...and iraqi businessmen....

[Every Man A King]

56. Where is the government going to get the revenue

needed for universal health care, and low-cost education for all? FYI you don't want Bill Gates hard work to pay off... you want to cap his salary. You contradict yourself constantly.

[busymom]

66. Bill Gates didn't run microsoft into the ground,

take a government hand-out and then slink off into the background with his final bonus. He worked hard, brought a great product to the market and built a company here that has stimulated our economy. No comparison to the banking fraud.

[riqster]

138. The crux or your argument:

"I just don't believe in taking from those who have more to give to those who have less"

But you're OK with taking from those with less to give to those who have more. That's the paradigm of the last eight years, taxing the middle class and not taxing the rich. It's worked real well, eh?

[treestar]

71. That is just an argument for specialization

Not working more hours. Even if the doctor has done the procedure a zillion times before, they are more liable to make mistakes in the fifteenth hour of their work.

In fact a beginner can be better, at least in the law, a beginner may have their first case, but they will look at it from all facets and really look into it deeply, whereas the "mill" law firm will look at an individual case as just one more case and look at it superficially and push it through the mill and miss many nuances that may exist for it.

[CTyankee]

100. You didn't mention how high the taxes in Germany are.

We can't have the things you mention that the
Germans without paying the kind of taxes the Germans pay. I personally agree with you that higher education, if you qualify, should be "free" (that is, paid thru taxes). But the Republicans are the ones who are demonizing the tax issue.

It would be a good idea if we adopted the German or French system of higher education, child care and health care. Our standard of living would be higher. I don't know how German surgeons get the training your sister said she needed by working all of those hours. It would be interesting to find out.

[busymom]

105. They are, but it feels more worth it.

Every tax payer from the bottom to the top of the pay scale benefits from the taxes...your children will have next-to-free college, healthcare...you name it...

You pay more in taxes, but don't resent it because you also benefit...Germans have a system of a sort of socialized democracy...but it works there because one group isn't paying in a higher percentage and amount while not benefiting at all.

[CTyankee]

130. And do the German surgeons put in the kind of hours your sister did and does

to get trained and improve their skills? You have stressed this as a reason for some resentment that you feel for her having to do this in our system without due reward. If the German surgeons have to do it, aren't they essentially in the same boat as your sister --they pay more in taxes but work much harder than say a shop clerk who may just put in 9 to 5 hours a day.

[Every Man A King]

29. Get rid of malpractice ?

why so when your overworked materialistic sister chops off some poor guys wrong leg, there are no consequences? No thanks ill take communisms.

[busymom]

36. I bet you will....

Maybe I could hook you up with my brother.

If a surgeon chops off the wrong leg, it's one thing...but in medicine it isn't "if" you get sued..it's "when"...Too many frivolous lawsuits are filed and are settled out of court simply because the hospitals don't want to go to the expense/bad press of dealing with litigation. Post-surgical infections happen..it's not necessarily the fault of the doctor or the hospital...there are risks associated with anesthesia and you have to sign a consent form...it's life.

My sister was named in a suit several years ago by a woman who found a lump in her breast on self-exam. It was so small that when she went to her gyn, the gyn couldn't find it...so they did a mammogram...and it wasn't visible on the mammogram. The gyn told her to continue her monthly exams and come back if she noticed it again. The woman noticed it again about a month later and went straight to a surgeon (my sister)...who removed it. It turned out that it was malignant...

And...she sued the gyn and radiologist for not noticing it sooner. My sister said it was so small that even on first and second examination she was unsure if she felt something AND that it didn't show up on a second mammogram.

There was no damage to this woman. It was caught at an extremely early stage, she did not require chemotherapy or a mastectomy...she wanted my sister to testify that there was malpractice involved and that she "could have died". My sister told her no way and then she tried to include my sister in the lawsuit.

What a waste of money and time....

[Every Man A King]

38. "frivolous lawsuits"

Where have i heard that before? lmao

[busymom]

47. I don't know...where? It's a pretty common term.

[treestar]

75. If an insurance company settles a case, it is because they think

the jury will make an award. That there is a risk the jury award will be greater than the settlement amount.

If the jury makes an award, it isn't a frivolous case.

If people need an incentive to work, don't doctors need an incentive (threat of malpractice) to do the work right rather than negligently and carelessly? Or anyone else?

[busymom]

83. If a hospital or group settles a case it is also

because they don't want to go to the expense of litigation and bad press.

There have been plenty of jury awards that were frivolous, btw.

[treestar]

144. Now you are going beyond the system. The jury award can't

be a "frivolous" case. If the jury found the defendant negligent and awarded damages, they were convinced. And they were the deciders. There is no way to appeal a verdict claiming it was "frivolous."

[NYC_SKP]

11. Yes, it is "re-redistribution", making up for 8 yrs of Bush redistribution.

Unfortunately, it is impossible for it to be done in an absolutely equitable way.

:donut:

[KansDem]

88. Actually, hasn't it been 28 years of Reagan/Bush redistribution?

Didn't the attack on the middle and working class begin under St. Ronnie?

[NYC_SKP]

102. Absolutely correct, and with not enough reversal during the 8 years midstream.

While we did better under Clinton, we gave away far too much to globalism and IIRC unions did not fare as well as they might have.

"Buy American" was seen as a right wing mantra, I'm hearing it more from the left, finally.

:patriot:

[KansDem]

116. Good article on this whole era...

When Reagan rolled out Supply Side Economics in the early 80s, dramatically cutting taxes while exploding (mostly military) spending, there was a moment when it seemed to Wanniski and Laffer that all was lost. The budget deficit exploded and the country fell into a deep recession – the worst since the Great Depression – and Republicans nationwide held their collective breath. But David Stockman came up with a great new theory about what was going on – they were "starving the beast" of government by running up such huge deficits that Democrats would never, ever in the future be able to talk again about national health care or improving Social Security – and this so pleased Alan Greenspan, the Fed Chairman, that he opened the spigots of the Fed, dropping interest rates and buying government bonds, producing a nice, healthy goose to the economy. Greenspan further counseled Reagan to dramatically increase taxes on people earning under $37,800 a year by increasing the Social Security (FICA/payroll) tax, and then let the government borrow those newfound hundreds of billions of dollars off-the-books to make the deficit look better than it was.

--more--
Common Dreams

I found this article succinct and informative...

[NYC_SKP]

137. Wow, I've never read it. A very succinct description of what happened.

Fucking Greenspan.

I never trusted him, had a tenure longer than many supreme court justices.

It kind of confirms my suspicions and mistrust of one huge wing of our party, too, sadly.

[Kashka-Kat]

16. It's NOT a "tax rebate" for anyone - it is a loan from China

There are no taxes left over to rebate!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. Of course it is and it's Grrrreat!

The problem is that it still isn't adequate. Capital is so disproportionately rewarded in this country that moderately progressive tax policy won't correct our self-destructive imbalance.

What social benefit is there to your brother working 80 hours a week? Better to have two people working 40. It's not simply resentment, it's the reality that the pie is only so big and there are those of us going hungry and cold for want of a slice.

The GDP per capita is $44,000 in this country. Families of four who gross less than $176k aren't getting their fair share.

[busymom]

20. well...

it's not my husband and...I'll be sure and tell my sister that once she has hit her 40 hours a week she may no longer operate...even if it is your kid who comes into the ER!

The pie is only so big...and I agree that we have to pay living wages...and I mean real living wages...but then we have to work at making education more affordable for everyone and putting a cap on CEO salaries, etc. By taking more money from people who are doing things right, we are cutting off our nose to spite our face.

[wyldwolf]

18. of course it is. The better question is "so what?"

EVERYONE benefits from "redistribution" in some form.

[John Q. Citizen]

19. What rebate check do you imagine your brother is getting? You didn't say what that was.

[asdjrocky]

21. You're forgetting about the poor tax that only the poor pay.

[Every Man A King]

26. Here me out we don't want no communisms n/t

[Every Man A King]

32. Suck on this

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

[endarkenment]

37. the OP has confused marginal and effective rates

it is a common confusion with the hate radio crowd as they are spoon fed disinformation

[busymom]

48. wrong. speaking of disinformation...

[endarkenment]

53. The effective tax rate on 200K is around 25%. nt

[busymom]

58. I included social securtiy

and state taxes...those are all monthly deductions.

[endarkenment]

61. The effective tax rate on 200K is around 25%

and you did not include state taxes in your OP:

"If you earn 200k/year, you will pay out over 42% of your income to social security and federal taxes....if you live in a blue state, you will also pay state taxes"

You argued that not only is the effective tax rate on 200K 42% for federal taxes (it isn't even close to that) but that figure did not include state taxes.

Social security adds 7.5% on the first N (104K this year) then a much smaller % on the rest for medicare. Call it a boost of around 5% effective and that will get you to around 30%. Nowhere near your 42% number.

[busymom]

67. I have looked at her tax return...

I don't have the total breakdown in my memory, but it added up to 42%.

[lumberjack_jeff]

151. I think most doctors are self employed.

Their SS share is 15% of the first 104k.

[Every Man A King]

49. Yea but the reason i posted that link

is to show how low top-rates are when you campare with the past.

[endarkenment]

57. indeed.

And oddly, there is a strong correlation between prosperity and high progressivity in tax rates.

[endarkenment]

35. turn off the hate radio

your numbers are way off. The effective tax rate for 200K is around 25% not 42%. Turn off the hate radio. The effective tax rate on billionaires is around 17%. Turn off the hate radio.

[dbonds]

41. So are you saying the people paying taxes would swap places with the people out of work?

Didn't think so. This is such a false argument that it is hard to respond to. Greed drives capitalism, that is the one of the early stated tenants. So people just get carried away and have the individual priorities above the group. Both have to be cared for though. That is why there has to be regulations because greed as the motivator only produces people who want more and more and don't think about the group. You are not redistributing money here. Both are paying their fair share, then the lower income is being brought up to a minimum level of existence.

[endarkenment]

44. and smoke a lot of pot and play halo all night

[dbonds]

50. Who? The unemployed?

That sounds like you are stereotyping someone. Maybe you need to see what a family crisis is really like instead of listening to republicans living in their mothers basement.

[bunnies]

76. You probably should actually read the thread.

Specifically here. -------> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8159268&mesg_id=8159392

[dbonds]

79. My statements were purposefully in the general context, not specific.

Of course you can find a specific case to falsely color a general point, but the argument is about the general group, not a specific.

[bunnies]

81. Gotcha.

I thought you were specific to the OP's situation. My bad! :hi:

[busymom]

51. The lower income

should be brought up to a minimum level of existance by giving living wages in this country...not by tax rebates. It could be that paying living wages will reduce the amount of money earned at the top, but so be it. That is more fair than arbitrary tax rebates etc. People deserve to earn wages that will allow them to live, put away for the future and should be guaranteed health care insurance...period. But...I still believe a college education should be worth more in dollars and cents for the time and money invested...

[dbonds]

54. I agree with all that.

I don't think anyone is suggesting leveling that out where both groups are the same.

[POAS]

60. So you ARE in favor of redistribution of wealth! n/t

[busymom]

63. No. I believe in adequate compensation for all people

at both the bottom and top ends of the spectrum.

[POAS]

70. But you said

"It could be that paying living wages will reduce the amount of money earned at the top, but so be it."

Less at the top because the government mandates more at the bottom is redistribution of wealth.

Likewise More at the top because government decides that certain types of income is to be taxed at a lesser rate than other types (ie capital gains) is redistributive.

[busymom]

87. No...it isn't...

People should be compensated adequately for the work that they do. It is FAIR that the people who are the backbone of the company earn living wages with good benefits...what is left over is adequate and fair CEO pay...how little or much that might be. If it is in the multi-millions, so be it...if not...that's ok too.

[POAS]

96. You ignore the fact that

to have a "living wage" structure it must be enforced by the government and is therefore a government redistribution of wealth. If that is not redistribution then tell me what it is!

You also did not make any comment about my other point with regards to a tax structure that favors the wealthy by capping taxes on capital gains. Do you favor this kind of redistribution where those that work and earn a paycheck are taxed at a higher rate than those that rely on investments?

[busymom]

104. ok...

We already have a minimum wage that is enforced by the government. That wage needs to be raised to a good $15/hour. That's my opinion. That isn't govt. redistribution of wealth, it is the government protecting the rights of the worker to be able to live and to buy the products that they are selling (which, ultimately, would help the economy!).

Regarding capital gains taxes....I don't know....and I say that because these investments protect people in the future for retirement and...because the capital gains tax is progressive. Quite frankly, I think I would lower taxes across the board for everyone to add more stimulus to the economy...and I'd do away with a bunch of the bullshit programs in washington...and...I'd get rid of corporate loopholes and offshore companies/investments that avoid US income taxes...and...people like Daschle wouldn't be getting big posts in my government.....after ripping off Uncle Sam while we are stuck paying out the ass.

[POAS]

113. You just exposed a basic

flaw in your knowledge of tax law.

Capital gains tax is NOT progressive, it is a flat tax. Income tax is progressive in that it taxes increasing rates of income at increasing rates.

What is also missing from your argument is that any form of taxation and government spending IS redistribution of wealth. Some people pay more and some receive more. You may disagree with the particulars of that redistribution but none-the-less it is all redistribution.

If your sister begins to get a tax break for repayment of her college loans that takes money out of the government that must be replaced by another person's tax or by borrowing and passing the debt onto later generations.

By the same token if the government forces my employer to pay a "living wage" they have decided how the wealth of the company is to be distributed rather than relying on the "free market" to set the distribution rates.

The fact seems to be that you want redistribution on your terms and want it to reward those you deem worthy but refuse to acknowledge your bias on this subject.

[busymom]

119. I thought that capital gains were taxed at 15% but 5% for

the lowest two income brackets? Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not an expert on this.

[POAS]

152. Yes they are taxed at

15% but that is a flat tax and is not scaled for higher income levels.

If you make $150,000 in capital gains that is all taxed at 15%, if it comes from a wage for the tax year 2009 you pay 10% up to $8,350, 15% up to $33,950, 25% up to $82,250 and 28% on the balance of that $150,000.

In those figures you'll probably notice another fact that supports the idea that capital gains flat rate hurts the lower income levels.

Suppose you managed to accumulate enough wealth to supplement your income with capital gains $8000 a year (a modest sum) then all of that would be taxed at 15% therby increasing your effective tax rate assuming your total income is below about $33,000.

On the other hand, if your income from capital gains is more on the order of $200,000 while you take a job paying, for example, $80,000 a year you have essentially lowered what your effective tax rate had your entire income come from wages of $280,000.

Ther are of course details that this leaves out and is only intended as general outline of how a low capital gains tax is an effective way of redistributio of wealth.

[CTyankee]

108. I live partially on investments. I inherited my mother's investments as her only living heir.

I am retired due to some health problems. I do not regard myself as being needy at all. I am lucky to have the income that I have. But I live modestly, in a modest house and I drive an old car.

Not everyone relying on some investments are rich. That is just fiction.

[POAS]

117. Sorry if that was implied

however many rich do rely on capital gains rather than a wage, which explains all those stock purchase plans given to executives, and by getting the bulk of their compensation from capital gains their tax rates are much lower than a wage earner.

[busymom]

120. I wonder if there is a way to separate those out.....

Someone living from investments made is fundamentally (or at least in a moral sense) different than a ceo with stock purchase plans...It must be possible to do away with corruption and greed without hurting people who are playing fair.

[POAS]

153. I suppose one way

would be to exempt Capital Gains up to a certain dollar amount provided that the overall income does not exceed a certain differnet combined level.

We already do that for Social Security (and may in fact already do that for Capital Gains but I done' have that information). Social Security is not taxed unless your total income from all sources surpasses a certain dallar amount and then it becomes taxable.

I'm sure the accountants could figure out a fair way to do that.

[busymom]

55. Greed drives capitalism..that's true...

but don't you also think that it is human nature to want more? We all want more...of course we do... Every single person here wants more, me included. Vacation home in the bahamas? I'll take it...big screen tv? If you insist. I'd love some of these things and if I could find a way to work harder and earn more money to buy them...well, I just might...and I don't begrudge the people who do. I'd like to be one of them some day! LOL

[dbonds]

59. Some people take greed to levels that become harmful to others.

That is where regulation comes in. Not the normal levels you are referring to. But this also brings up another problem, credit. It lets people feed the greed by selling their future, and too many in the US have fell prey to this.

[busymom]

62. I agree. Let's find common ground here...

CEOs who earn 30 million dollars a year, pay their employees next-to-nothing, don't offer health insurance AND take govt. bailouts for running their companies into the ground should be limited dramatically in their earning potential.

Surgeons who took out student loans of ~150,000 to go to college for 8 years, did residency training while working 100+ hours/week for another 5 years with limited pay, who come in to operate in the middle of the night on people regardless of whether they have health insurance, should not be hated on. They should not be lumped into the same category as the asshats who helped destroy the financial health of this country. I adore my sister. She works hard and she deserves every penny she makes and more.

[Every Man A King]

64. No. I want to know where the government is going to get the money

for the Universal Healthcare and Low Cost Education for All which you support upthread.

[busymom]

65. Cutting waste, and

getting rid of off-shore tax shelters for big businesses for starters.

Also...not everything will be able to be funded...we might have to make some hard decisions about certain things...

[Every Man A King]

68. What waste?

What programs do you want to cut?

[busymom]

73. Well, for starters,

I wouldn't be occupying Iraq. Actually, I wouldn't have gone in the first place. I would not be paying govt. money out the ass to private companies to rebuild Iraq...with no-bid contracts.

I would not allow a medicare prescription drug plan to pass without being able to haggle for drug prices with big pharma.

I would get rid of a lot of the bureaucracy that increases costs...

And...good-bye earmarked projects, congressional perks, and government bailouts of corporations.

I think we would have been better served to invest the bailout money in new industry. America has a huge problem. We don't make anything anymore...not really...we aren't on the cutting edge of producing new technology, we import our scientists and engineers. We need to get back to a stronger foundation for our country.

Personally, I would go through the government's 'books' with a fine tooth comb and cut out every single road to nowhere you can imagine.

[dbonds]

78. You do realize that the cost of Iraq has been borrowed.

Cutting it won't bring us more money, just less in debt.

[busymom]

84. yes...and no....

Borrowed on the backs of our children, who will be burdened by higher taxes regardless of the jobs that they do....and...our higher national debt does cost us in interest and in the perception around the world that America is going down fast.

[dbonds]

69. I wouldn't lump them in with the bad guys.

How does that number get up to 42%. I make 75k a year, I am not married and don't own a home so I end up paying the max rate. I pay about 25k for 75k in salary. Is it the matching SS that the employer pays that makes it that high? I am not hurting at only 50k of bring home money, and I pay more in taxes than some of my friends make. I would trade my 75k job for a 200k job at 42% though. I would still come out way ahead. With that extra money I could buy a house and get more deductions that would leave me with more money. I would not be hurting or penalized and I would have more than I needed. The thing about greed is it ends up with us wanting more than we need. I do think 42 percent is high though, but it is my understanding that under 200k will get tax cuts, and 200k to 250k will stay the same.

[Lyric]

72. What kind of "check" will your brother be getting? You haven't made that clear.

If he hasn't worked, then he isn't going to get any tax money back.

He also can't be getting any Earned Income Tax Credit money, since that money is ONLY for people who have worked, and even then, you have to have dependent children in order to get more than a pittance.

Are you talking about the stimulus checks? Well how much is that going to be for a single guy--$300? The purpose is to stimulate the economy, so if he goes out and spends it on video games, then at least the money was used for its intended purpose. Spending "stimulates;" saving/investing does not.

So what exactly is the problem, other than your personal resentment for your brother, which has nothing to do with public economic policy?

:shrug:

[Kashka-Kat]

77. Its just words - 'socialist'/'wealth redistrib' is the new 'terror' - most democratic societies

incl. our own employ some facets of 'socialism'/ 'wealth redistrib' to soften the harsh edges of capitalism - as you recall social security was started bc elderly people were dying in their homes in the 30s. I forget when the progressive tax system was established but its been around many decades - people w/ larger incomes pay proportionately more.

It was argued that adding some socialistic elements to our system was necessary to preserve capitalism. All these arguments still hold 70 yrs later. Don't be afraid of the words or the demonization behind them !

[bunnies]

80. You actually resent people who make shit money...

over what... a meager $1000 tax return?! How dare anyone living below the poverty line actually get back money they desperately need?! How DARE they?!

By the way... how big of a free money stimulus check did you get from the Govt last year? huh?
Know how much people under the poverty line got? NOTHING. ZERO. ZIP.

Clearly you have issues with your brother but thats YOUR issue. Dont spread your hate all over everyone else.

[AtomicKitten]

82. I thought the resentful "redistribution" meme only resonated with wingnuts.

I am appalled at someone posting this here at DU (the avatar should be a clue), but dipping into the hate well of the rightwing is beyond the pale. The poor have suffered for decades in America and will be devastated in the upcoming financial storm. I am so disgusted that anyone calling themselves a Democrat would frame the discussion this way. Ugh.

[bunnies]

95. I hear ya.

Because, you know, its so damn rewarding to live under the poverty line. People like that (which I'm one of right now) really have things made. Clearly - I should feel guilty about my few hundred dollar tax return. Greedy, selfish, douche that I am.

My heart goes out to those eeking by on 160k a year. Dont even get me started on those poor millionaires. Property taxes on all those houses?! So unfair. :hi:

[busymom]

98. Look...

No one is saying that it is "fun" to live below the poverty line or that you are a selfish douche...

At the same time, people "eeking by" on 160k per year probably went to several years of college, are in it up to their eyeballs in debt and also made big sacrifices to get where they are....that is not to belittle where you are at all...and I mean that.

If your neighbor next door comes to your house and says "look, I know that you make $2/hour more than me and it's not fair. Write me a check for $50 right now" you'd have to think about it...is the person who earns less than you entitled to a cut of your check? Maybe you think so.

I think...wages should be more fair in this country from the bottom to the top...but not that we should be pointing to those who earn more than us and saying "give me a cut". I don't earn $160k...not by a long stretch....looooong....but I don't begrudge someone who has worked hard to earn that money of a single dime.

[bunnies]

106. I'm not getting a cut of your check.

I get my own earned money back and nothing else. What in the world makes you think I get more than I earn? :shrug:

[busymom]

118. I don't...

but...I would cut you a check...if I had it to give! LOL

[bunnies]

lol.

:hug:

[busymom]

126. I don't know if I can help you in any way...

but if you need something typed or entered into a database, etc, I could do it...for free...just to help you out. PM me if there is anything I can do.

[bunnies]

133. Thanks, busymom. I really appreciate it.

I'm incredibly touched by the kindness and generosity of your offer. Unfortunately, I'm a graphic artist / web programmer. ugh.

Thank you though... I mean it... you made me teary. :loveya:

[AtomicKitten]

103. cue Monty Python

Large Man with Dead Body: Who's that then?
The Dead Collector: I dunno, must be a king.
Large Man with Dead Body: Why?
The Dead Collector: He hasn't got shit all over him.

:hi:

[busymom]

85. No I don't.

I, personally volunteer with the homeless once a month, donate to charities that are close to my heart and do a lot....but I also believe in personal responsibility for people from CEOs down the scale.

People under the poverty line didn't get anything from the govt. last year? hmmmm. I would beg to disagree. Medicaid, state aid for families (health insurance for kids), food stamps...those are all valuable things that our government gives to people who are living below the poverty line and I dont' disagree with that at all. That is not nothing.

Do I have issues with my brother? Yes. I think he has no work ethic...and he voted for John McCain but is happy to apply for every social program he can get his hands on. You'd have a problem with him too.

[bunnies]

89. Not every person under the poverty line takes those things.

And I specifically asked about the free money that poor people didnt make enough money to qualify for. Due to an injury, I myself was one of those who got nothing. And due to that same injury and a lack of health care - I'm under the poverty line again this year. So yeah.. I'll get a whole few hundred dollars back from the federal gov't and I'll use it to pay my heat bill for the next couple of months.
Something tells me that its a 'benefit' most people would rather live without. I ask for nothing else from the gov't.

Your brother? Yeah, if thats the case, he sounds like a real ass.

[busymom]

93. But you should...

That is what it is there for, and that is what you and I and everyone else pay taxes for...at least part of the reason anyway. There is no reason that in a country this 'great' that a hard working american should not be offered healthcare insurance as a part of their benefits packet....it's ridiculous that this isn't the case. No other industrialized nation treats its workforce like this. Of course some of these things are benefits that most people would rather live without, but you should look into the help that you can get. It's one of the good things that comes out of our tax dollars. Being injured and losing income is different than staying up to play computer games all night and not aspiring to better yourself by working. It's not.

Should you get a tax refund? No. You should have been receiving monthly compensation until you could work again along with healthcare from the very start. That, in my opinion, is how things should be fixed. It would have meant more than just a couple of hundred bucks and would have given you security from the start instead of this terrible stress....and it is help everyone should qualify for regardless of income...

[bunnies]

97. I *am* working. 3 days a week.

I cant afford not to. And I dont have kids - therefore I dont qualify for any gov't aid whatsoever. My tax refund money is all I get and believe you me... I need it. What *should* be would be nice but thats just not how it is.

[busymom]

99. Then what needs to be fixed

is the system itself...and not a system of tax rebates.

You said you were injured...if it was on the job, you might be eligible for some workers comp...if not, maybe you are eligible for some govt. disability until you can get back on your feet?

[bunnies]

109. I'm screwed either way.

I have tendinosis so bad that my I'm down to a 5% range of motion in my right arm. Without treatment - it just continues to worsen (my fault for having no insurance) = the gov't tells me to screw.

See, I can still do computer work - forget that it worsens the condition. Maybe when I lose the use of my arm all together...

[busymom]

121. Can you go to a govt. hospital?

Do you have the ability to get any kind of workman's comp or temporary disability until you are on the mend? It is certainly not your fault...and I know that public hospitals/clinics aren't necessarily desirable...I've been a patient there too...but it is better than nothing....

[CTyankee]

114. My brother was the same way and always voted Republican. He died at age 67

after a lifetime of drinking/smoking/getting fired from good jobs and then living with, and off, our parents and not working period. He ruined his health, had two strokes and had to be put in a nursing home for his care. After 3 years there he had a third stroke and it killed him.

I was as angry with him as you are with your brother. I tried to help him get health care, he wouldn't go. I lived half way across the country and worked full time so I couldn't just up and move there to be his nanny. I feel terrible about what happened to him but he would NOT help himself. He was a bright, healthy guy starting out and was tops at being a CPA. He had every advantage that a middle class white male growing up in the 50s had and he just threw it away.

I don't know if anything can be done about men like our brothers but I do understand your frustration and your anger. I have had lots of that, plus regret for it when he died.

[busymom]

122. I feel the same way....and it makes me sad...

I love him, and I'm angry with him. It's also always my mom who bails him out of his messes financially. He also doesn't take care of his health...he just won't help himself and I want to go and kick him in the pants sometimes. He blames everyone else for the circumstances in his life....and...my sister and I grew up in the same house with the same circumstances...it's not like we don't understand and get it...but at some point he also has to do some things to help himself. I worry about what his future will bring...and your post gave me chills!

I'm so sorry for you about your brother. I don't want regret either...any advice?

[CTyankee]

135. I have suffered regret and actual guilt for not helping my brother more.

And for being angry with him and really giving him hell some times. After I saw what the first stroke did to him I realized he was no longer able to function, couldn't drive and food shop for my mother who by that time was widowed. It was an impossible situation. The 2nd stroke put him in the nursing home where I could visit him when I came to see my mother (4 times a year).

He did lose his older daughter 22 years ago when her step grandfather went on a rampage and shot her and others before killing himself. But his irresponsibility had begun years earlier. Maybe her shocking death just sealed his fate, tho it was no fault of his. Maybe he just gave up and didn't care any more.

I wish I could give you some fabulous advice, but I can't. At this point I truly don't know what I could have done differently, apart from leaving my husband, grown kids and grandkids to just move down to Dallas and take care of everything. AS it was, I did the best that I thought I could at the time.

[busymom]

143. My brother...

lives in Dallas too.

I have been trying to encourage and motivate him...find the good in what he's doing and encourage it. He is very sensitive to any perceived criticism though. If I tell him his hair cut looks nice (he had to cut it for his job...it used to be down to his behind) he tells me I don't accept him for who he is...He's 35, wears all black and black chains etc..and when I once asked him if he wore it to an interview for a job he told me that if the employer can't accept him for who he is, he doesn't need to work for them.

It makes it hard.

I love him...I don't want to see his life go down the tubes like this. It's just...hard....

I give him money for bdays and Christmases and also send him gift cards to restaurants and fast food places too....I just worry about ... his future.

[CTyankee]

148. Good luck. Hope he turns around at a certain point.

He's younger and has a way to go toward maturity. He might just make it. You never know.

My particular place in tragedy shouldn't affect you. It is just one person's story. People can change. Have hope...:hug:

[Occam Bandage]

90. You can either have an economy that works well and leads to job growth for everyone,

or you can have an economy that ensures that the stupid and lazy are unsuccessful. Me, I'd rather pull a few undeserving people up than push a few million deserving people down.

[ecstatic]

91. blue cross blue shield just wrote me about a rate increase

An extra 35/month. I barely use their service as it is. My sister is getting everything paid for free of charge through Medicaid. I agree that there should be a middle ground somewhere, at least for healthcare.

[busymom]

94. We got an increase from them too.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

101. The incentive is earning 200K and up per year.

My combined tax rate (SS, Federal, City, State, etc.) is about 25%, and I make *far* less than your sister, plus I live in NYC.

Personally, I'd rather make more and pay a lot in taxes than make a little and pay fewer/lower taxes.

[busymom]

107. Until you make more....

and realize how hard you had to work to get there, how little is left over after taxes, SS etc, that you are stuck with the AMT, and ... that you are stuck working your ass off to pay student loans and can't stop working or work less....

[Starbucks Anarchist]

110. How little is left over?

I guarantee that what your sister has *left over* is at the very least four times what I make per year *before* taxes. Yes, she deserves to be well-paid, but I don't want to hear any sob stories about someone "struggling" on six figures.

And I'm sure she knew the debt/education risk before taking the job. It couldn't have been a surprise.

[busymom]

124. Seriously, why do you care? She works hard for her money...

damned hard...and I bet if you were sick at 3 am that she would get out of bed, come into the hospital, treat you with respect and kindness, operate on you and see you every day until you were well regardless of your insurance status. She doesn't have a sob story...but she does deserve what she earns and shouldn't be resented for it.

[Occam Bandage]

125. Most everyone works hard for their money.

I don't see how that figures into the equation either way; it isn't the government's role to ensure that taxation is based on level of job difficulty.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

131. Exactly.

I'm sick of this idea that only people who slaved away in school worked hard.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

129. I just said she should be well-paid.

Did you even read my previous post?

and I bet if you were sick at 3 am that she would get out of bed, come into the hospital, treat you with respect and kindness, operate on you and see you every day until you were well regardless of your insurance status. She doesn't have a sob story...but she does deserve what she earns and shouldn't be resented for it.

Great, but isn't that her job? :shrug:

I don't resent what she gets paid. I resent the idea (even if she didn't say it herself) that she's somehow struggling with her post-tax income. She knew the debt/education risk, so she can't be surprised by that.

Your OP seemed to be an RW-ish attack on poor people, implying that they're lucky because of the fewer/lower taxes they pay.

BTW, my dad is a doctor, and I have never once heard him complain about the taxes he pays.

[riqster]

127. On the other hand, Reeps have been restiributing wealth for years

...taxing folks like me more heavily while cutting taxes on the rich. Somehow nobody ever calls them on it.

I guss it's OK to redistribute wealth, as long as you funnel it up instead of down, eh?

[busymom]

128. No..it's not...either way.

[riqster]

132. ALL governments re-distribute wealth. ALL governments tax and spend.

It is what they do. Without government, the rich hoard their wealth and the rest of the population have little or nothing, regardless of how hard we do or do not work.

Stop regurgitating Joe-The-Unlicensed-Plumber's talking points and read some history other than books by Rush.

[CreekDog]

150. sounds like you disagree with your avatar

pity. :eyes:

[baldguy]

136. Refunds or stimulus checks should be distributed according to who will be more likely to spend it.

It shouldn't be thought of as a reward to those people it is given to, its meant to get as much economic activity out of each dollar spent as possible. Thats the whole point of a stimulus.

[Unsane]

139. I wish I made enough money to have to pay 42%

[blueclown]

142. Sounds like somebody who listens to a lot of talk radio.

How many hours of Limbaugh and Hannity to you listen to a week?

[Lorien]

145. 42%? More like 18-24%

Try a little honesty, OK?

[Thrill]

146. Last I checked everyone pays SS and Medicare out of their check

so yes they deserve a rebate

[CreekDog]

149. Everyone pays taxes, Social Security, Medicare, Sales Taxes

why you refuse to recognize those things as taxes is troubling.

and nevermind that even those who paid relatively little in the past year, may have paid a great deal throughout their lives.

[demo dutch]

154. All Social policy is redistribution.. seems to work in Europe quite well but

yes there needs to be incentive for hard work. However, some point your brother will turn 50 and he will have nothing, let alone be able to support a family and if that's the kind of life he chooses so be it.

[ItNerd4life]

155. Yes it is. Amazed how some people thrive on kneejerk reactions

instead of trying to understand your concerns.

Most Democrats believe that redistribution is fair because the 'haves' keep getting big pay raises while the working class is barely getting even. If you look at pay increase over the last 30 some years I believe lower & middle income people incomes have grown by 30% but the 'executives' have grown by over 150% (after inflation).

This is the real problem. Until working class, middle class, and executive class pay is balanced somehow, it is only going to get worse.
So, the easy solution to most Democrats is to just tax the 'executives' more and redistribute instead of coming up with a way to solve the underlying problem.

Some people do talk about 'executives' cannot make more than 100 times the lowest paid employee within a company or subsidiary. And they can't make more than 20 times the average wage. This idea has merit and would really need to be fleshed out, but it does get at the underlying problem of 'executive compensation'.