Sen. Gillibrand to Latino Group: I now favor Path for Citizenship for Illegal Immigrants

[SuperTrouper]

http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/93206/-em-ny1-noticias-exclusive---em--gillibrand-changes-immigration-stance/Default.aspx

Her new positions:

1. Will ask President Obama to stop deportations immediately
2. Wants to create a path for citizenship for illegal immigrants
3. She will oppose deputizing local police to enforce immigration laws.
4. Supports federal fundsa and tax incentives for so-called sanctuary cities.

Wow, meet the new Kirsten Gillibrand. Hopefully these are not election year conversions. Best of luck to the new Senator from NY

[Romulox]

1. "Pandering". nt

[SuperTrouper]

2. I'm giving her a chance. Hopefully she makes NY proud...

[AtomicKitten]

5. Nate Silver weighs in: "I don't know if she'll be an especially good Senator for Democrats."

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/01/is-kennedys-loss-conservatives-gain.html

Friday, January 23, 2009
Is Kennedy's Loss Conservatives' Gain?

More on this later on, but if as is widely anticipated, Kristin Gillibrand is named today as the junior senator from New York, this is not a terrific outcome for progressive Democrats. Gillibrand, statistically speaking, has been one of the more conservative Democrats in the House. Moreover, she is a somewhat proud conservative, being a member of the Blue Dog caucus. In a state like New York, which is capable of electing and re-electing a very liberal senator, that's a somewhat underachieving result for the Democrats.

And I know the objection/counterargument: Gillibrand was representing a relatively conservative district in upstate New York; perhaps she will change her stripes and become more liberal upon representing the entire state. I don't doubt that's true to an extent. But Gillibrand's R+3 district wasn't that conservative by any means, especially since an upstate New York sort of conservative is different from an Alabama sort of conservative. I think, in other words, that her conservativism (or moderateness, really), is in substantial part a matter of her personal philosophy rather than merely an attempt to position herself politically.

I also don't doubt that she'll be effective, compelling and popular, and may turn out to be a very good senator for New York. I just don't know that she'll be an especially good senator for Democrats.

-- Nate Silver

[wyldwolf]

3. who doesn't?

[Romulox]

6. Me? nt

[wyldwolf]

7. when "you" matter on a political level, let me know

[Romulox]

8. And when "you" developed a sense of shame, let ME know, k?

You know that shame is a normal (and healthy) human emotion, don't you?

[wyldwolf]

9. I have a wonderful sense of humor. It's the pile on of this new Senator for "pandering..."

... when every elected pol, past and present, I can think of has done it, that I have a low tolerance for.

[Romulox]

10. Freudian slip or malapropism? "Humor" and "shame" are distinct concepts.

:hi:

[wyldwolf]

12. neither. I just found what you were writing to be unintentionally funny

[Romulox]

14. The idea of you feeling shame is funny? I guess only to those that know you! nt

[wyldwolf]

15. no, the fact you hold yourself up as an example to elected officials is

[Romulox]

17. I did no such thing. But I did waste time arguing with a center/right ideologue. nt

[wyldwolf]

18. Since the topic of conversation was an elected official, and you said *you* don't pander...

... most would agree you did exactly as I said.

[paulk]

11. or you could call it representing her constituency

now that that constituency is the entire state, rather than a conservative district...

[wyldwolf]

13. when Kucinich flip flopped on abortion and flag burning, was he representing his constituency?

When Paul Wellstone flip-flopped on DOMA, was he representing his constituency?

NO, THEY WERE PANDERING LIKE THE CORPORATE FASCIST TOOLS THEY ARE/WERE!!

(how was that? believable?) :)

[dsc]

22. I have actually been consistent as have others on Kucinich

In his first run, Kucinich had a substantial problem with strong pro choice voters precisely because they didn't trust him. By his second run he had the new position for 4 years so it was less of an issue. I had similar issues with Kucinich on gay rights as he converted on those in 2003 too.

[wyldwolf]

28. despite our differences in the past, you have always been consistent and fair

[paulk]

25. pretty good, yeah

you had me going there for a second...

;-)

[Romulox]

16. Is it clear that amnesty really redounds to the benefit of the people of New York, taken as a whole?

[paulk]

26. it's the liberal position, isn't it?

[Romulox]

29. It's the position of meat-cutters, agri-business, and multi-national corporations. nt

[paulk]

30. you are absurd

.

[Romulox]

And you are the master of nuanced debate! nt

[paulk]

58. and you aren't?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8159823&mesg_id=8159838

[Romulox]

38. And you are the master of nuanced debate! nt

[pampango]

39. But it's not the position of Rush and the Minutemen. Strange bedfellows on both sides. n/t

[Romulox]

40. It was the position of Bush-Cheney, to be sure. nt

[geek tragedy]

27. Pandering to liberal groups is good.

It's what causes good legislation to get passed.

[AtomicKitten]

4. Her very recent makeover by Schumer is fab-u-lous.

:eyes:

[Still Sensible]

19. Actually, I think its just because her constituency has changed

before the appointment she was representing a very conservative district, now she is representing the whole state of New York. I believe it's likely in both cases she is/was accurately reflecting the views of those she represents.

[AtomicKitten]

20. Nate Silver: "Gillibrand's R+3 district wasn't that conservative by any means ..."

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/01/is-kennedys-loss-conservatives-gain.html

* snip *

And I know the objection/counterargument: Gillibrand was representing a relatively conservative district in upstate New York; perhaps she will change her stripes and become more liberal upon representing the entire state. I don't doubt that's true to an extent.

But Gillibrand's R+3 district wasn't that conservative by any means, especially since an upstate New York sort of conservative is different from an Alabama sort of conservative.

I think, in other words, that her conservativism (or moderateness, really), is in substantial part a matter of her personal philosophy rather than merely an attempt to position herself politically.

[Still Sensible]

21. No question that's true

as is the fact that her record is in no way the Blue Dog record of some democratic office holders in the south and in my state, Oklahoma.

That said, generally conservative people, republican or democrat, have been strongly opposed to anything that would give illegal immigrants a path to citizenship. I would have to see a poll of her district specifically, but I'd be surprised if there was a majority of support for what was at the time the democrats and Bush position on the issue.

[Hippo_Tron]

32. Does Nate Silver mean R+3 in 2008 or R+3 in 2004?

Because there's a big difference.

[AtomicKitten]

34. Um, Nate Silver was dead-on during the election, so I think he knows what he's talking about.

[Hippo_Tron]

35. I'm asking a simple question

Was Gillibrand's district R+3 in the 2004 election or R+3 in the 2008 election?

[AtomicKitten]

36. There is no reason to believe Nate Silver is not working with current figures

considering he followed them so excruciatingly close throughout the election. However, if you aren't convinced, perhaps you could inquire via email.

[Hippo_Tron]

60. I don't think you understand the reason I asked the question

I looked it up and you are correct that Silver was using 2008 figures. But in 2004 Gillibrand's district was R+8 which is substantially more than R+3. Gillibrand was elected in 2006 which means that her district was still R+8 at the time she was elected and during most of the time that she served in congress. It's not like she could predict the future and know that Obama was going to lose her district by a substantially smaller margin than Kerry did. Additionally 2004 was a Republican year and 2008 was a Democratic year. Members of congress that aren't in safe districts live day to day in survival mode. They hope that the next election will be favorable to their party and they do everything to prepare for the possibility that it won't be.

Gillibrand's positions were a strategic calculation based on how best to survive for as long as possible in a district that isn't favorable to Democrats. Every politician's positions are to a certain extent based on these types of calculations. This is far more so the case when you represent a district that isn't favorable to your party.

When Gillibrand was appointed to the Senate I predicted that she would drop the border fence and the NRA shit. I was right about the border fence and we'll see about the NRA when and if there's any gun legislation that comes up. That is simply what happens when your constituency goes from R+3 in a good year and R+8 in a bad year to D+10 in a bad year and D+25 in a good year overnight.

This is not to say that Gillibrand is some kind of champion for progressives because she most certainly is not and will not be. But she will be no more right wing than Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer.

http://www.swingstateproject.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=932

[ClarkUSA]

23. She and Mitt Romney are political opportunists separated at birth.

[Cha]

24. What-ever.

OT~I like your new moniker.

[Hippo_Tron]

31. Told ya so

Blue dogs are just Democrats who act like Republicans because their constituents are Republicans. Take their constituents out of the equation and they become just like any other Democrat.

[AtomicKitten]

33. She's hardcore Blue Dog

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/01/gillibrands-record-shows-shes-true-to-the-blue-dog-creed.php

Gillibrand's Record Shows She's True to the Blue Dog Creed
By Elana Schor - January 23, 2009

Rep. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY) is headed for a big promotion this afternoon, with New York Gov. David Paterson expected to tap her as the state's next senator. But aside from her experience on Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's 2000 Senate run -- and her summer job in the office of very Republican former Sen. Al D'Amato (NY) -- what do we know about her?

Aravosis points out her less-than-stellar record on gay rights and stunning 100% rating from the National Rifle Association. But here are a few more votes where New York's new senator showed her centrist stripes as a House Blue Dog:

- Gillibrand split from the majority of fellow Democrats in 2007 to support a $100 billion Iraq funding bill without a timeline for troop withdrawal. (Clinton opposed the bill, along with President Obama.)

- Gillibrand was the only Democrat voting against Rep. Maxine Waters' (D-CA) proposal last year to help states purchase foreclosed homes and offer them at discounted rates to low-income families.

- She did stand apart from 41 House Democratic centrists in 2007 to oppose the "bipartisan" Protect America Act, which enabled the Bush warrantless wiretapping program to continue with minimal judicial oversight ... but Gillibrand voted last year to give legal immunity to telecom companies who had assisted the wiretapping regime, despite her earlier vow to oppose such a shield. (President Obama, it should be noted, flipped his stance in the exact same fashion.)

Here's the piece you commented on above in which boywonder Nate Silver disagrees with your assessment:

Friday, January 23, 2009
Is Kennedy's Loss Conservatives' Gain?

edited for link: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/01/is-kennedys-loss-conservatives-gain.html

More on this later on, but if as is widely anticipated, Kristin Gillibrand is named today as the junior senator from New York, this is not a terrific outcome for progressive Democrats. Gillibrand, statistically speaking, has been one of the more conservative Democrats in the House. Moreover, she is a somewhat proud conservative, being a member of the Blue Dog caucus. In a state like New York, which is capable of electing and re-electing a very liberal senator, that's a somewhat underachieving result for the Democrats.

And I know the objection/counterargument: Gillibrand was representing a relatively conservative district in upstate New York; perhaps she will change her stripes and become more liberal upon representing the entire state. I don't doubt that's true to an extent. But Gillibrand's R+3 district wasn't that conservative by any means, especially since an upstate New York sort of conservative is different from an Alabama sort of conservative.

I think, in other words, that her conservativism (or moderateness, really), is in substantial part a matter of her personal philosophy rather than merely an attempt to position herself politically.

I also don't doubt that she'll be effective, compelling and popular, and may turn out to be a very good senator for New York. I just don't know that she'll be an especially good senator for Democrats.

[wyldwolf]

37. only when you islolate a few issues throught the eyes of the left... otherwise...

http://www.ontheissues.org/NY/Kirsten_Gillibrand.htm

[tomg]

42. Thanks for the link. I know my

Rep, Mo Hinchey, is one of the best in the House, but actually seeing it on a map made me feel great.

[AtomicKitten]

52. Good grief! She's a consummate Blue Dog, 100% NRA rating, anti-LGBT until 5 minutes ago.

I have no idea why some people here at DU continue to try to whitewash her record.

[wyldwolf]

53. Good grief! You've joined the fantasy-based community

Where a very small subset of the Democratic party decides what is cool and what isn't.

100% NRA rating

Like Howard Dean?

anti-LGBT

Like, oh, Blue Dog Howard Dean?

[AtomicKitten]

54. Why does the truth worry you such that you'd continue to try to white-wash her record?

She's a Blue Dog, son. It's on the record. Perhaps you think I'm unaware of Howard Dean's record? I can only surmise that's why you're offering him up here, but that's the reason I didn't support him in 2004. Ooops.

[wyldwolf]

55. are you saying Howard Dean isn't fit to be a Senator?

She's a Blue Dog, son.

So?

It's on the record.

It is.

Perhaps you think I'm unaware of Howard Dean's record?

Don't really give a rat's ass. But if you are aware of it, then you know their positions on the two issues you despise Senator Gillibrand on are near identical.

Now, are you saying Howard Dean isn't fit to be a Senator? Oops... mom.

[AtomicKitten]

56. Embrace her Blue Dogginess, son, and quit BS'ing about her record.

And, no, I will not support any Blue Dog because I abhor their ideology on many things. You? Ha! Now that's the point here, isn't it? Embrace what you support. Your efforts to white-wash Gillibrand's record lead one to believe that it embarrasses you in some way. I'll leave you to your inner struggle.

On edit: Regarding your title of the above post: are you saying Howard Dean isn't fit to be a Senator? ... nice inflammatory provocateuring, son. Proves you are a dishonest opportunist and completely bankrupt in this discussion. Now run along and smooch your Blue Dogs Are Awesome poster and embrace the centrism--->wingnuttiness you admire so.

[wyldwolf]

57. How have I BS'ed about her record, mom? Perhaps you can point it out to those reading

You've made several hysterical accusations that don't seem to be supported by anything I've written.

[olegramps]

41. If this is her position then I guess that I am out of touch.

1. Will ask President Obama to stop deportations immediately
2. Wants to create a path for citizenship for illegal immigrants
3. She will oppose deputizing local police to enforce immigration laws.
4. Supports federal fundsa and tax incentives for so-called sanctuary cities.

1. Illegal aliens that invade our country are not to be prosecuted? I guess we can roll out the carpet for all the terrorists that want to destroy us. Is she nuts?

2. This may have some merit. But it sure seems unfair to those who desire to immigrate and do so legally. Why don't we just throw open the boaders be flooded with people willing to work for peon wages. I am sure that would get the suppport of the greedy corporate bastards.

3. Seems like she is on the side of the law breakers. Some of the most vicious gangs are comprised of illegal aliens that will stop at nothing and have murdered hundreds if not thousands in their gang wars to control narcotics smuggling.

4. Now we should reward cities that assist those who are breaking our laws.

This is nothing more than pandering to the Hispanic vote. Maybe I am totally out of touch, but I don't support any of these provisions.

[wyldwolf]

43. "Illegal aliens that invade our country" - ya know, you can make your points...

..without taking such a Republican tone...

[SuperTrouper]

46. I see your points, but now Gillibrand has to change some of her positions if she is to survive 2010

[Starbucks Anarchist]

48. Yes, I remember all those Mexicans in Al-Qaeda.

:eyes:

[LanternWaste]

44. Good for her...

Good for her... I think that human beings are more important than imaginary red and blue lines on a map.

[olegramps]

49. If you saw your job disappear to an illegal immigrant you would change your tune.

Hundreds of thousands good paying jobs in construction were taken by illegal immigrants who were willing to work for half what American citizens had been making. The situation were so gross in our area that a guy with years of experience as a foreman and super was turned down for a job because he didn't speak Spanish. We have been told how Americans wouldn't do certain jobs like in the meat packing houses. When Swift was raided and the illegals arrested, the next morning there were five Americans applying for everyone of those jobs. It seems to me that the greedy bastards that run these companies what to create the same situation in our country that exists in Mexico and what fuels the Mexicans' desperation.

[LanternWaste]

51. Sorry, chief....

Sorry to disappoint your projections chief, but I happen to place a larger priority on human beings than on imaginary red and blues lines.

The only jobs I've lost, I've lost to younger, less experienced, lower-waged Americans.

[Thrill]

45. Someone gave her the nickname Mitt Gillibrand

It seems to fit. :)

[wyldwolf]

47. Or Kirsten Wellstone or Kirsten Kucinich

[w4rma]

50. Even more of a corporatist than before. This is a very pro-corporate, wage-suppressing position.

Given her history, it was obvious that this would be the type of issue she would "change" on.

[SuperTrouper]

59. Gillibrand La Perra Azul...it sounds worse in Spanish than English.