Shit. They cut high speed rail !

[Laura PourMeADrink]

I have never, ever understood why we can't be like Europe - where you can
easily and comfortably get from major city to major city on high speed rail !

http://t4america.org/blog/archives/657

UPDATED: (7:30 p.m. 2/6/09) A source claims that that the Senate agreement reached this afternoon contains NO changes for the transit or highway amounts, with the intermodal competitive grants and high-speed rail both cut in half. No change for Amtrak. In light of this development, we recommend halting calls on the possible $3.4 billion cut to transit. We’ll have the final word tonight or tomorrow.

snip

For targeting purposes, the Senators reported to be in the room are Ben Nelson (D-NE), Mark Begich (D-AK), Tom Carper (D-DE), John Tester (D-MT), Mary Landrieu (D-LA), Evan Bayh (D-IN), Jim Webb (D-VA), Mark Warner (D-VA), Michael Bennett (D-CO), Claire McCaskill (D-MO), Jeanne Shaheen (D-NH), Mark Udall (D-CO), Joe Lieberman (I-CT), Susan Collins (R-ME), Arlen Specter (R-PA), Mel Martinez (R-FL), Lisa Murkowski (R-AK), and George Voinovich (R-OH).

[xchrom]

1. quelle surprise. nt

[elleng]

2. We are much LARGER than Europe!

.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

9. So

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

31. taking the train in Europe is too expensive

It is much cheaper to fly between most cities and I suspect that would continue to be the case here.

[HooptieWagon]

45. Huh?

I took a high speed train from Genoa to Milan - first class, $8. I didn't check air fares, but I can't imagine they would be as cheap. This was about 5 or 6 years ago.

[Joe Chi Minh]

53. He must be thinking of the UK, where we have hucksters like Branson

who've taken over the railways - which had always been grossly underfunded, in comparison with the nationalised, continental European countries.

Now the railways are grotesquely inefficient and incredibly expensive. We can't seem to build a train and track that will take trains than go faster than the steam train, The Mallard. They are so packed in the rush hour, a lot of passengers have to stand in the corridors - I believe (I'm not sure), including first class.

We also had a spate of crashes and derailments causing multiple deaths, so I believe they had to re-nationalise and rebrand the company that maintains the tracks. The tax-payer, incidentally, had to pay for their folly, so that the shareholders could still receive dividends. Shades of the bail-out bonus scam.

[elleng]

57. Some history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak

[Joe Chi Minh]

64. Thanks for that, Ellen.

[Sultana]

88. UK is so expensive, I am studying here for a semester...

Hot Damn, I took the Underground from the HR airport then the train to where I am staying now, in total it was about 32 pounds.

The Underground was nice (at first till it started filling up) but the train was so boring and long (but the interior was nice).

Can't wait to go to some EU country where the exchange rate isn't so bad (I think).

:P

[Hieronymus]

89. I had much the same experience. One goes from one city center to another

city center ... no taking taxis to the airport.

[Hieronymus]

35. Someone always brings that up in a discussion of high speed rail. In the

19th and early 20th century the US had very efficient trains all across this big country.
As someone who uses the high speed trains in Europe, they're fabulous.

[elleng]

56. The U.S. still has very efficient trains all across the country.

Its provided by the same railroads that did so in the past. In the '70's those roads sought relief from their obligation to provide passenger service, and the U.S. established AMTRAK. The former railroads allow Amtrak to use their rail and their facilities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak

[Hieronymus]

61. Amtrak is damn near useless where I live. One must change to buses for

part of the trip, and, because passenger trains yield to freight, a short trip takes hours.

[TheWraith]

67. So? In the 19th and early 20th centuries trains were all we had.

I'm a proponent of high-speed rail too, but the fact is that while it might be convenient, it's never going to replace cars and airlines entirely. The country is simply too spread out for that. In Europe you might be able to walk from your home to the nearest mass transit station, but what happens here when the nearest station is 5 miles away?

[silverojo]

83. My nearest station is 25 miles away

Not everybody lives in major cities....

[TheWraith]

91. Nor do I. In fact, I live 30 miles from a big city.

Not that big, either, less than a million people. But the nearest "mass transit" of any kind is a little over 5 miles from here, in the form of a local bus system.

[Hieronymus]

84. For most people the nearest airport is at least 5 miles away.

[TheWraith]

90. Yes, but aircraft have a few advantages over trains.

Higher speed and unlimited routes, for starters.

[Hieronymus]

94. Actually, trains have less limited routes. At 200 mph, and taking into

consideration the time traveling between a city and an airport, plus check in times, trains are very efficient.

[TheWraith]

96. A few years ago I went to Las Vegas...

Relaying Buffalo to Atlanta to Las Vegas was about 8 hours. Considering travel time to a station, even a non-stop high speed train run would have been 16 hours.

All things considered I'd actually prefer the train if the accomodations were properly comfortable, but they're never going to fully displace air travel for speed. High speed trains are best suited to runs where the flights might not be as efficient, or where you can hit a number of towns on a circuit, like running across New York State.

[Lorien]

70. Er, our rail system was ONCE the envy of the world

then Big Oil took over and decided that building interstates would be a better way to line their pockets. Anyone who has used the EU and British rail systems know that the American system is a f*cking joke. Enjoy gridlock much?

[Spider Jerusalem]

79. Continental US, less Alaska, Hawaii, Long Island, etc, is about 2,700,000 square miles

Continental Europe is about 3.5 million square miles, and has more than twice as many people. The United States IS NOT 'much larger' than Europe. The US has many areas that are much less developed and built-up than Europe, but this is not the same thing.

[elleng]

80. What's 'transcontinental' worth in the U.S?

.

[defendandprotect]

3. ...because of the oil industry.... no competition for gas-guzzler permitted . . !!!

[Gregorian]

4. Because rubber, gas, steel, asphalt all lose with efficient rail.

They killed that in the previous century. And it was because if they can sell you a new car every year, there is big bucks for them. You build one rail, and you're done.

What a stupid country that we can't demand what's best for us. Well, I shouldn't say stupid as much as comfortable. Hey, give someone a car and they'll never get on a train. But that's all about to change I hope.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

11. What makes us so different as human beings than europeans?

I mean that seriously. Why do they, as a majority seem to
be so smart compared to us. And, like you say, do things
that are good for the people.

[dflprincess]

14. I recently heard a comedian (can't remember who) point out that

the inscription on the Statue of Liberty is very inspirational until you start thinking about the state the country is in and then it dawns on you that we're the descendent's of "the wretched refuse" mentioned in the inscription. He speculated that that may explain why Europe seems to do things like human services and transportation better than we do.

[Psephos]

16. So smart that they caused the deaths of a hundred million in wars in the 20th Century

I can live without that kind of smarts.

[dbmk]

21. I actually think that might have something to do with mellowing our approach to many things

and the "restart" aspect is not to be ignored either.

But in general thats a rather weak stance. It happened 60+ years ago. That is hardly a reason to dismiss ideas.

[Psephos]

29. I see your point...but also believe that cultural underpinnings are resilient

Sixty years ago is not very long compared to the persistence of cultural ethos.

What prompted my original reply was the strange post by the person who thinks Euros are somehow smarter and superior to us. Different - yes. Superior? Smarter? They've had their civilization for a lot longer than we've had ours, yet European history does not provide comfort to those who love peace or value free thinking. I suppose that could be generalized to world history.

Deeming certain cultures to be superior and smarter begets bigotry and prejudice. These attitudes are the seeds of oppression and war.

[Gregorian]

22. Wars and kings and hardship.

We never had the Black Plague or famine. We've never had any hardship at all. This has been a country of relative ease. Petroleum plays a huge factor. And I think the fact that we're like the generation X country. A fresh clean country. Granted, we come from Europe, but it was all left behind. An experiment in freedom. I often replace freedom with free for all. And I mean that in the irresponsible sense. Anything goes. In a way we are like little kings here. I heard a speech that was given back in the 70's regarding peak oil, where it was mentioned that because of gasoline, each American has the equivalent of 300 slaves. Every person has the power and comfort of what kings once had. And now, instead of a ruling powerful one, we have many powerful ones. And they are directing where we will go, unless we as people stand up. But we don't because we're warm and full. And this is what happened to our rail system. We had them. In many towns across the country there were electric trolleys. We know the story. The corporations didn't like it, and soon people were given the chance to have their own "trolley", or automobile. Luxury. I think an old continent with history is one with memory. We have no national memory. And we broke with Europe in every way. But I think what we're discovering is that all of the science and gadgets and comforts will not replace the simple love in life. So maybe, and it's my hope, we will go back to being Europeans. Valuing good food and culture. And humility.

[illuminaughty]

63. That sums it up for me.

We've chosen comfort over culture and we have an indentity crisis. Unfortunately, most Americans will never understand why our lives are so empty.

I miss that "real food" and love of life I found in Europe.

[AZ Criminal JD]

66. I guess you forgot about that little Civil War

About 500,000 dead and whole regions of the country devastated. No, "we've never had any hardship at all."

[davepc]

60. Cause all the European idiots finally killed each other off in the teens and 40s.

[Hieronymus]

95. Sounds like the Bush administration's argument about "old Europe".

[Hello_Kitty]

37. I hate driving. I'm sick of it.

Yes, it's convenient but I'd sure love it if there were more trains where I live.

[Critters2]

42. I don't think of it as convenient. Public transit would be at least as convenient. nt

[Gregorian]

59. I commuted by bike for a decade. Ten miles each way.

It was glorious. The sights, smells. The only part I disliked was the cars.

I've learned to literally despise the automobile culture. In fact I have just spent fifteen years buying and selling properties in an attempt to find a place that is devoid of automobile noise. I did it once, but had to move. Otherwise it is pervasive. And offensive. Most people have learned to live with it, and are unconscious of it. But once you've lived with silence and beauty there is no going back.

In 1976 I had a girlfriend who lived in Tehran, and was going to school here. I will never forget what she said. At the time it was meaningless to me. She said we're "car crazy" here. She looked around and all she saw was people in cars. Nobody walks in LA.

And we're paying for it. It is probably the single most significant factor in the downfall of this country. And I might add, the environment. We're killing everything with this monster.

So there. I've spilled my guts on this subject. I will say one more thing. Before I was commuting by bike, I had a neighbor kid come up to me and tell me I ought to be riding my bike, not driving. And something clicked. I thought it would be horrible. But rain, snow, heat, I enjoyed every day. We could have such a beautiful country. And I might also add that I was healthier then. But it's an addiction. We're addicted to the comfort that not having to use our bodies brings. But we're wrong. There is no better comfort than being in shape, and smelling the flowers as they fly by, and more than anything, the companionship of others as they join in. 'That doesn't happen in cars.

[Lorien]

71. I find high speed rail and systems like the Paris metro and London

underground 1000 times more convenient. No parking, no sitting in traffic for endless hours on !-4, no clueless tourists driving 20 mph on the freeways, no foaming at the mouth local SUV drivers riding my tail...just a calm, quiet trip, reading a book, sipping my drink, daydreaming as I watch the countryside roll by-it's bliss by comparison.

[janx]

74. I know the feeling--right here in NM!

I used to have to get up at 5:00 and scream down the highway to my job. Now, because of a combination of the Rail Runner and a commuter van, I get to sip...and read...and enjoy the countryside! :hi:

[RollWithIt]

5. Well, we can't get everything we want all at once....

2nd and 3rd tier wishes take time and sustained popularity.

[Gregorian]

6. Yes. We're just starting. I think the bills are going to get better.

Not even a hundred days. Wow.

So right you are.

[Still Sensible]

7. Not a good thing, but they really didn't have enough money

allocated to it to make much of a dent anyway IMO.

[proud patriot]

8. crap

that sucks ..well we'll get it eventually.

[amborin]

10. VERY little funding for mass transportation of any kind

[Lex]

12. How short-sighted

and stupid can they possibly be?

[ProSense]

13. This is speculation. I don't think high-speed rail was cut.

It's speculation that they reduced the the funding, but even that isn't clear.

[karynnj]

17. Given that Specter was the co-sponsor of the 2008 bill with Kerry,

you might be right. It also might be that they cut the money, but allowed enough for the work that could be done within a short near term period - with the idea that only part of it belongs in the stimulus bill.

[NYC_SKP]

18. I hope you're right.

You usually are! :hi:

.

[blm]

23. If Lieberman was involved, he'd cut high speed rail just to fuck over Kerry - Lieberman and Clintons

hate Kerry and have thought NOTHING about screwing over the country as long as they feel they've hit Kerry in some way. The Bushprotecting wing of the Dem party needs to go.

[paulk]

24. sure...

:tinfoilhat:

[karynnj]

26. Lieberman was a co-sponsor of the 2008 bill Kerry sponsored

He, like most of the MA to DC corridor Senators have always been strong supporters of rail. Lieberman likely does resent the strong support Kerry gave Lamont, once he was was the Democratic nominee - but there are issues (obviously not foreign policy) where Kerry and Lieberman agree.

[Psephos]

15. high speed rail would require massive takings of land and huge cash to do it

You can't use current tracks and rights-of-way, because high-speed rail needs straight lines and smooth grades. So for most of the routing, you have to start from scratch. The politics would be ugly and brutal.

Meanwhile, major cities in the US are farther apart than those in Europe, which diminishes demand while pushing up costs.

High-speed rail can work in regional settings here (NE corridor, SoCal, C/SE Texas), but I've yet to see an unbiased economic analysis that says it would be anything less than astronomically expensive, and require large, ongoing government subsidies to implement it on a national scale. Which is another way of saying that people who don't ride it would have to pay dearly for people who do.

jmo

[Hardrada]

19. Do they have this in China? Or the former USSR?

[Psephos]

20. national high-speed rail? no n/t

[HooptieWagon]

46. I believe China has some.

IIRC, Russia has only standard rail.

[Psephos]

48. China has some regional (coastal) - but I was referring to national. n/t

[iamthebandfanman]

69. japan has some also

correct?

seems like i remember watching a program about high speed rail in asia and europe one night..

[karynnj]

27. The plan in the bill written last year did not create a nationwide

network connecting all major cities. The point was replacing air and cars for city to city travel for those pairs where the distance causes it to make sense.

[Psephos]

30. True, however, my reply was tailored to the remarks of the o.p.

Meanwhile, "makes sense" is a values term. It might make political sense, but not economic sense. Or make sense from the perspective of carbon impact, but not on land use impact. Etc.

Personally, I'd like to see regional high-speed rail, and would gladly use it. However, I don't think it should be built unless it can pay its own way in the long term. Otherwise, we'll be sticking future generations for the bill on something we use now. I thought that way of thinking was supposed to end once we took over both chambers of Congress and the White House.

[karynnj]

41. By pay their own way, shouldn't the standard be that they

operate with no more than the level of subsidy given to cars (al the highway, bridge repairs) or plan (the cost of airports, TSA, and air traffic control). The Democrats did not run as libertarians.

[Psephos]

47. I'd be ok with that, if the number of people using bears relation to the number paying

Otherwise, it's a rip-off scheme that subsidizes the few at the expense of the many.

Meanwhile, my comment has nothing to do with being "libertarian." How did you come up with that? Libertarianism is a philosophy emphasizing minimal government. I'm quite ok with government spending on public goods with high utility and wide utilization. I'm not ok with putting stuff from our wish list on the national credit card. Throughout the campaign, we heard a lot about "pay-go." Was I a sucker to believe it?

The real suckers will be those in the future who are going to be stuck with the bill for stuff we want now. Of course, we always justify what we want by saying it's something we "must" have now, due to whatever (perpetual) current "emergency" is "forcing" us. Like the people of the future won't have "emergencies" too? The actual emergency they're going to have is paying back all those trillions, and they will be well and truly screwed.

[karynnj]

50. Your point taken

Sorry - I should not have added that. The proposal I saw - that was not in huge detail - seemed to be for a public good of high utility.

[Hello_Kitty]

38. Like Phoenix to Vegas or L.A

It's ridiculous that your only choices are to drive or fly.

[Ikonoklast]

34. I've read that acquiring the rights-of-way would cost one trillion dollars.

It would be the largest government give-away since the first give-away to the railroads, as the government is the only entity large enough to do the acquisition.

The issues of passenger rail funding will be addressed in a Transportation bill at a future time.

[Hello_Kitty]

39. Interesting. I wonder what type of land most rights of way are

[Lorien]

73. Post your source. nt

[Hieronymus]

36. You have made the Republican argument for them.

[Psephos]

49. Yawn. Come back with an actual argument instead of a cliche insult.

Maybe there's an economic or environmental case to make for rail, and I'd be interested to hear it, but your unprovoked insult adds nothing but bad karma.

[tucsonlib]

44. "large, ongoing government subsidies"?

You mean like the gazillions of dollars the government currently gives away to the airlines and the auto industry? I, for one, would love to see my tax dollars used to build something for a change. Something future generations would thank us for. The longer we wait to build it, the more expensive it will be.

[Psephos]

51. You mean something like the Interstate Highway System

Or the airport network?

Things that the overwhelming majority of taxpayers already use and couldn't do without?

If the gazillions actually were going to the auto industry, why are they all on the verge of bankruptcy, and why are the airlines two steps behind them?

Your opinion is not based on the actual economics. Let's discuss those instead, without bias. I'd be all for rail (I love using Amtrak in the Northeast) but I need to see a cogent feasibility study and some hard numbers.

[JBear]

52. The Southeast Corridor...

is currently all owned by CSX. There is no land that must be bought. I think that the environmental impact study recommended places that they purchase land to widen current right of way, but this impact was minor. The biggest cost of the SE Corridor was stringing the catenary and laying new track on land that is not being used at the moment.

This REALLY should happen!!

:bounce:

[Psephos]

78. I'd be all for it :)

It would be a great match with the recent burgeoning of urban areas in the Carolinas, Virginia, Georgia, etc. My guess is it wouldn't be terribly hard to figure out a connector for the NE corridor, either.

Do you have an idea of what areas CSX's ownership extends to?

[Lorien]

72. Nonsense. The mag-lev system can be placed in the medians of every major

freeway and highway. Nice GOP talking points though.

[Psephos]

77. Right...because there are no bridges, overpasses, service lanes, median woodstands, etc.

and pylon-elevated track is soooo cheap compared to running on the ground.

Four miles of it cost a billion dollars more than a decade ago in downtown Detroit. It's called the PeopleMover - google it.

I won't even go into the legal, property, and liability issues involved. Interstate medians are not federal property, btw. Furthermore, the complex embedded power system adds significant costs and thorny engineering issues as well (read $$$).

Take your "GOP talking points" cliche over to freeperville, where they believe that unprovoked rude cliches are valid substitutes for civil argument of the pros and cons of an issue. You'll fit right in. ;-)

[Every Man A King]

86. So we never should have built all these highways

criss-crossing the USA? The fact that its a huge public investment is good, not bad. Reaganomics is dead, we have been living off the legacy of the New Deal and the cannibalization of the lower middle class for too long.

[Every Man A King]

87. So i assume that you think all roads should be Toll Roads?

Or do you think its ok for the government to 'subsidize' roads?

[PVnRT]

93. How about those otherwise useless median strips down interstates?

Might as well build something there, rather than waste money and gas cutting them all summer long.

[Life Long Dem]

25. So the inclusion of a high-speed rail provision Kerry won is out?

If so any word from Kerry or is MSM playing the fair and balanced no fair doctrine game. As if they were not - I ask. :silly:

[liskddksil]

92. According to the update rail has not been cut

by this amendment.

[LittleBlue]

28. First, I want proof that people would even take rail.

My city passed a referendum to build a multi-billion dollar rail system when the current one isn't popular.

[Hello_Kitty]

40. People have been known to change their behavior when gas gets costly enough

When it was $4 last summer I have never seen so many people riding local buses. And I live in a place where nobody rides the bus if they don't have to.

[janx]

68. I know I did. As soon as it was possible to combine the Rail Runner

with a shuttle system to get me 75 miles to work, I did it! I used to drive down and back twice a week and was, at one point, paying $200.00 a month for gas!

Now? $16.00! ;-)

[JBear]

54. I would!

I would much prefer to take a train do downtown than to wait for an hour at an airport, fly, wait again to get out of the airport and then have to rent a car to drive into town where I would be paying to park.

The ONLY argument that holds water relative to the "people won't take the train" meme is that too many cities are completely inaccessible without a car. South of DC, the only cities that are really accessible without a car are Atlanta, Charlotte and to some degree Richmond. That needs to change too!

:bounce:

[AlinPA]

32. What an interesting group of senators in the room. It is interesting how many new people

are in there. Voinovich (R) and Martinez (R) are getting out of the Senate; Collins (R) and Specter(R) could be helpful at times and their seats are at risk in more Democratic leaning states. Hmmm.

[SoxFan]

33. I doubt Shaheen would cut rail funding

New Hampshire has been fighting to get commuter rail service from Manchester and Nashua to Boston re-established. Not high speed per se, but it's in the same ballpark.

[janx]

76. It's a lot better than having to drive!

State and regional commuter trains are the way to go, IMO. We don't have to insist on a high-speed EuroRail type of system to make a difference.

[SoxFan]

85. I agree completely!

When I was in high school, before I had my driver's license, I'd take the MBTA's commuter rail from Haverhill into Boston and spend the day down there. It was great to have that option.

I've also used MARC, and it sure beats trying to find a parking space on Capitol Hill!

[Unsane]

43. I only support HSR on a regional basis (NE corridor, SoCal, Texas triangle, PacNW)

it would help alleviate traffic in those regions and lower commute times

[Undercurrent]

55. A Eurail Global Pass is Much cheaper than airfare

* Unlimited rail travel in 21 European Countries
* 15 or 21 consecutive days over 3 months
* 1, 2 or 3 months consecutive travel over 3 months
* Saver pass available for smaller groups of 2 to 5 people traveling together
* Discounted fares for passengers under 26 years of age (see Youth), when traveling in 2nd class


European Countries offering the Eurail Pass for rail travel:

# Austria (including Liechtenstein)
# Belgium
# Croatia
# Czech Republic
# Denmark
# Finland
# France (including Monaco)
# Germany
# Greece
# Hungary
# Ireland
# Italy
# Luxembourg
# The Netherlands
# Norway
# Portugal
# Romania
# Slovenia
# Spain
# Sweden
# Switzerland

[leftofthedial]

58. get used to disappointment.

we won't see real health care reform either.

If government actually works for the people, the repukes are finished forever. All this churn is the keepers of the status quo scrambling to make what's wrong go away without fixing it.

[liskddksil]

62. According to update Rail is unchanged for now!!!

This according to Transportation 4 America.

Senate compromise preserves transit funding — for now
It appears the Senate compromise on the stimulus package keeps transit and highway funding unchanged. Neither the high speed rail funding or competitive grants for any mode were reduced, as was originally thought to be the case. We’re suspending our appeal to make calls for now

http://t4america.org/blog/archives/658

[janx]

65. Wanna see something COOL? I just have to show off...

It's the New Mexico Rail Runner Express! MEEP-MEEP!



http://www.nmrailrunner.com/

[harun]

75. We can't get high speed rail like Europe because unlike Europe we have obstructionist

Repukes. Dem's really want this they can get it though.

[KakistocracyHater]

81. yes I keep thinking of all the jobs rail lines would create

that are unexpected/not factored in. If there will be food served that would add some farmers' to the jobs created, if there are bathrooms that would add cleaning services, the mail might shift over more to rail, local train stations would be built there's more jobs.

[Tektonik]

82. We need high speed rail along the CA coast and Wash-Bos

Just getting lines along these two corridors would be HUGE.