CLUE: Obama and Reid are BOTH "Centrists".

[bvar22]

After the smoke clears, there will be some minor adjustments in America under Obama/Democrats, but the way America "Does Business" will remain pretty much the same. The few Democrats who support fundamental change have been shut out of the Obama Administration.

After 4 years of Obama and The Centrists:

*The US will still have a very large army stationed at permanent bases inside Iraq "to protect American Interests".

*The US will be bogged down in an expensive quagmire in Afghanistan fighting a "War on Terror".
(The Defense Industry LOVES quagmires...Spending without Ending.)

*Military Spending will INCREASE.

*Programs that benefit the Poor & Working Poor will suffer cuts (witness the current cuts in the "Stimulus"). There will be much Democratic hand wringing in front of the TV cameras, but they will blame the Republicans ("We NEED 60 votes"), and then catch their Corporate Sponsored Jet to a "fact finding" vacation is some exotic golf hideaway.
(Please don't remember that the Republicans NEVER needed 60 votes).

*A complicated, expensive, "Affordable Health Care" package that benefits the powerful Health Insurance Industry will emerge. The new health care system will be more trouble than it is worth, and will funnel BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars (subsidies) into their already bloated pockets. This "Affordable Health Care Package" will make it harder or impossible to bring true Single Payer Health Care to the USA.

*There will be some sort of Commission that will White Wash the abuses under the Bush Administration. No RICH, WHITE Men will suffer the slightest inconvenience from these commissions. Democrats will close ranks with Republicans to protect the system.

*There will be some token legislation that will appear to impose some form of regulation on Big Business, but it will be toothless, and so full of intentional loop holes that nothing will really change. (SEE: "Protections for Taxpayers" in the Wall St Bailout).


The US is going to see about as much change as when the "Democrats" took the majority in 2006.
After all, THAT is what it means to be a "Centrist" (Moderate, Pragmatic, Blue Dog, DLC, New Dem)....NO fundamental change!

Those are my predictions.
They are based on the actual performance of the Democratic Party over the last 30 years since it were invaded by Corporate Stooges (DLC) masquerading as "Centrists".
I pray that I am wrong.
Please bookmark this thread so you can force me to Eat my Words at some future date.

[Blue_In_AK]

1. I fear you're correct, Bvar22.

Obama's likable and I want him to succeed, but I've been concerned all along that he's too centrist and wants to "get along" too much to accomplish the radical changes that at least I think we need. Of course, I'm not running the government, so what do I know?

But, anyway, you're not alone in your concern.

[NV Whino]

2. I agree with you

I said all of the above before the election. But what choice did we have. :shrug:

[Jennicut]

3. Obama is not a centrist. He is left of center.

A centrist is Nelson of Nebraska. There is a difference.

[bvar22]

9. That would depend on where you are standing.

I'm sure Newt Gingrich sees Obama as Left of Center.
If you think Nelson is a "Centrist", then please name a conservative Democrat.
He may call himself a "Centrist", but Nelson is a Pro-WAR/Anti-LABOR conservative.

If Obama did not want Reid as Senate Majority Leader, Reid would not be Senate Majority Leader.

[Jennicut]

23. Nelson is a conservative Dem, therefore he is in the center

Obama is to the left of Nelson. A conservative Republican is much more conservative the Nelson.

[w4rma]

25. Nelson isn't a "centrist" He's right of center. Look at the election results.

Nelson is located right on the edge of the far-right Republican Party which is only supported by about 42% of America.

[Jennicut]

29. I found this info on Nelson

I would say he is a very, very conservative Dem, almost a Repub. But he is not "far right". I don't like him, Nebraska could do better.


http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/ben_nelson.htm

[wyldwolf]

49. Centrist's don't have to occupy the exact same position

If you life in central ohio, there is south, east, west, and north central.

[amborin]

56. Obama is not left of center...

saying he's left of center is a right wing meme

would be great if O were left of center, but sadly, he's not

Kucinich might be considered left of center

[anonymous171]

4. There is one difference. Obama has a spine. Reid does not.

If you're going to be a Centrist, at least be a strong centrist.

[bvar22]

18. You know, I have to agree with you.

LOL.

Obama never promised to be anything but a Centrist.
He does it with CLASS, and in spite of my policy differences with him, I greatly admire and respect him. He is a great spokesman for America.

[Eurobabe]

50. I wish Harry Reid woul just go away.

:eyes: He does strike me as totally spineless

[ProSense]

5. What? Obama is not Reid. "Permanent bases"?

Under the Obama-Biden plan, a residual force will remain in Iraq and in the region to conduct targeted counter-terrorism missions against al Qaeda in Iraq and protect American diplomatic and civilian personnel. They will not build permanent bases in Iraq, but will continue efforts to train and support the Iraqi security forces as long as Iraqi leaders move toward political reconciliation and away from sectarianism.

link

[bvar22]

8. I made my prediction.

You are free to make yours.

I see permanent US Bases and an occupation force of 70,000+ US military personnel stationed in Iraq in 4 years and that is NOT including private contractors. That would NOT contradict anything Obama has "promised".

They don't need "to build" any permanent bases.
The permanent bases are already there.

[ProSense]

10. You're claiming Obama is a "centrist" based on your predictions? n/t

[bvar22]

17. No.

I'm claiming Obama is a "Centrist" based on his performance in the Senate, and his Centrist campaign.
He has appointed a cabinet full of Centrists, and has enacted a Centrist policy of Working with Republicans.
My predictions are based on Obama/Democrats past performance, not the other way around...(which I stated in the OP).

Centrism is OK....if you're Half-Republican

I'm ALL Democrat.

[ProSense]

22. "Centrist" based on his performance in the Senate, and his Centrist campaign." What?

Yeah, everyone ran out and voted for Obama because he was "centrist."

Nonsense, not only are the labels stupid, but you seem to be implying that Obama is interchangeable with Feinstein, Landrieu, Lieberman, Nelson (FLA) or Schumer. Democrats chose Obama over Hillary for a reason.

[bvar22]

27. Obama ran a Centrist Campaign by anyone's standards.

*More Free Trade

*A larger military

*Expand the War in Afghanistan

*No firm promise to end the Occupation of Iraq

*NO Single Payer Health Care

*Reach Across the aisle and build "consensus" with Republicans


IN the Obama's last year as a Senator:

*He voted FOR Immunity for the Telecoms after promising NOT to do so.
*He voted FOR a No Strings Attached Bailout for Wall Street CEOs after promising he would NOT do so.

You can hardly call those votes "Liberal".
It is kind to call them just "Business as Usual"....Centrist.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[ProSense]

28. "*No firm promise to end the Occupation of Iraq" "*NO Single Payer Health Care"

Keep the spin to a minimun.

[FrenchieCat]

6. Well, he's not Dennis Kucinich, if that's what you mean.

I remember last year around this time, you really couldn't bring yourself to imagining anything beyond a Kucinich or Edwards Presidency. It appears that you have progressed a bit since, but not by much!

What is "ironic" is you believing that Edwards was a more progressive candidate than Obama, when it was only that Edwards talked enough shit to get some to believe him to be more progressive....after his failed centrist campaign of 2004.

My point is that yes....I will bookmark your post, and if given the opportunity, will ask you to eat your words.

[PurityOfEssence]

15. Still the Edwards hatred and the skewing of facts

Watch Edwards' stump speeches from early '03, and it was ALL about populism. The theme was always about how the Bush Administration was systematically transferring the tax burden from wealth to wages. He wasn't some Johnny-come-lately to populism. That's why, when Dennis Kucinich was asked by Jon Stewart on "The Daily Show" in 2003 who he was closest to of the other candidates, his unhesitating response was "John Edwards".

Picking up the banner of the poor is a total loser in American politics: the rich hate you for it, and the working- and middle-class feel threatened. The Reagan years illustrated this over and over, and did the same thing with affirmative action.

The very heart and soul of John Edwards' rhetoric from the beginning of his first Presidential run was about economic fairness. It was overwhelmingly so. It was not an afterthought or revisionism.

The reason why many of his supporters believed in him was his fight against Ashcroft, his economic populism, and his ability to admit mistakes and still stand by his actions. He didn't duck the fact that he'd voted for the Patriot Act; he brought it up on occasion and pointed out some of the mechanisms in it (like tapping INDIVIDUALS instead of PHONES) that kept pace with technology. He also decried the usage of it by Ashcroft and admitted that, in its whole, it was not a good thing.

Edwards started the dialogue about health care in the '08 cycle. Obama is a beneficiary of Medicine Incorporated, both for political funding and his wife's livelihood. There is NO chance for single-payer health care or meaningful controls to health care costs because Obama is completely committed to corporate, for-profit medicine-for-money. He is unwilling to shake the system because he's benefited from in mightily. Whether he "believes" that only the godly profit motive is possible as a delivery system for the maintaining of people's VERY LIVES or not is really not an issue; he's beholden to them, and he's not going to change. He is WAY to the right of Edwards on this, and his record proves it over and over again. Of the the three major Democratic candidates last cycle, Obama's health care plan was the only one that didn't cover EVERYONE.

Like Obama for what he is, but stop selling him as a progressive. He's not. He's a bit to the right of center, he's a corporatist, he's a theocrat, and he's not going to change. I'm glad that he gives a damn about labor, I'm glad that he gives a damn about women's rights, but he's far too beholden to the corporatist overlords to shake their evil grasp on the public throat. I'll take what I can get, and he's about the best we can get after almost three decades of Little-Orphan-Annie-eyed reactionary atavism, but I'm not going to eat the shit and call it ambrosia.

Take a hint from many of the other Obama stalwarts: the NEW party line is "he never was a progressive; you're a loser for not listening carefully enough", instead of the "just hope and have faith; all these suckings up to the right are just positioning for that holy moment when he shows his true progressive stripes" horse shit that's been spewed far and wide.

[bvar22]

16. Last year at this time, I KNEW we were going to get a Centrist.

That writing was On the Wall over a year ago.


America was going to be given the choice between:

1) a ProWar/Anti LABOR/FreeTrading Democrat
OR
2) A ProWar/AntiLABOR/FreeTrading Republican

I didn't like it then.
I don't like it now.

I was never a big Edwards fan. Since I am Issues Based and not a member of the personality cults, I merely moved from Left to Right during the Primaries.
I was actually grateful that I didn't have to move further right than Obama.

But lets get over the name calling and cheer leading.
Which of my predictions do you disagree with?
I went down on paper.
You can do the same for that day in the future when you make me eat my words.

[Jennicut]

24. pro war? Obama was never for the Iraq war.

[bvar22]

47. When he was in state government in Illinois,

he opposed the IWR (which was Federal Legislation). He trumpeted his 2002 opposition throughout his campaign, and justifiably so.

However, since he won his seat in the Senate, he has voted FOR every single Iraq War Supplement, and every single increase to the supplement without any strings attached.
He has NEVER used his soap box to question the criminality or morality of the Occupation of Iraq.

During his campaign, Obama promised to:

*Continue the Armed Occupation of Iraq indefinitely.
He has promised only to "withdraw some troops at some time in the future if conditions permit.....hopefully within 16 months."
Best guesses from the experts put the number of residual troops at about 70,000 which is 1/2 the size of our military forces there today....and this does NOT include the paid Mercenaries.
According to Obama, their "mission" will be to "provide security, train Iraqi Forces, and protect American (Corporate) Interests."...(which is the EXACT same military mission they have under Bush).


*increase the size and budget of the military.

*Escalate the War in Afghanistan/Pakistan
(He has already fulfilled this promise with the authorization to bomb civilians from drones).



Better buckle your seat belt and go read the fine print.

[The River]

7. Being In The "Center"

is OK with me but the "center" in American politics is way
to far to the right of true center. Our "left" is
considered rather centrist in most of Europe

[Life Long Dem]

11. Regardless. Is Reid able to do his job? I think it took him 15 minutes to say 3 words yesterday.

[biopowertoday]

12. I think your predictions are spot on regardless of which label folks want to squibble over.

[cilla4progress]

13. Hey!

He IS the President of ALL the people. I think we've seen his true colors about his position this past week. He is definitely a pro-government interventionist on the economy, and an engager on the international scene. I have no second guesses! :)

[MarjorieG]

14. Key is gov't that works, and look what we've just been through. Lots of ignorance everywhere.

We'll plant the seeds of green jobs and energy independence, affordable health care to all will be a patchwork and unavoidable. Can't move mountains of uncaring stone overnight.

The public too has been ill-informed all these years, and these legislators want to get re-elected. Obama needs to educate and fight the media will doing it from the bully pulpit

[AtomicKitten]

19. You're right. He's not a progressive. He's a traditional liberal.

What seems to cloud perspective is that he has surrounded himself with RW-leaning centrists, in particular his economic and foreign policy teams. Nobody is going to argue their proclivities.

However, what matters is how he governs. At three weeks in, I don't think anybody can make that call accurately. Some people view the ideological spectrum narrowly; there is a mile between DLC/centrist ----> progressive.

I will judge him by his policies as they unfold, Magic 8 ball predictions notwithstanding. You could very well be right, but then again you could be wrong. My guess is it will be a mixed bag.

I'm looking to him to prosecute BushCo for war crimes. On that I will judge him with no wiggle room for rationalization or compromise.

[glitch]

20. I agree he's a Centrist, but I am very glad he isn't a corrupt Fascist.

As long as he cleans the Fascists out of our government I'll be close to happy. We are at least turning away from that mad dash off the cliff.

And I am hopeful that as he deals with the utter Nihilism of the Fascists he'll grow more Progressive. I had hoped that he would start out further along that path but at least we are now moving in the right direction, even if it's slow and even if it probably won't (IMO, and with any luck I am wrong on this) be enough to save us.

He does have a heart and a brain and that's a big advantage over most. He is going to have to overcome that University of Chicago education, but he's young, I think it will happen. Hopefully, in time to enact the major corrections we'll need.

So at present I am still hopeful and willing to be patient. But that doesn't mean I won't squawk when I see what I believe is a mistake being made. And I truly don't believe President Obama would have that any other way.

[Hippo_Tron]

21. The left wing is not a major political force in the United States

They were during the 1930's, which is part of the reason Roosevelt governed as he did. But until there is a serious left wing force there will not be a US President that is left of center on the world scale. You can't govern if you don't have supporters. Obama is left of center on the United States scale but not the world scale.

[boomerbust]

26. After 8 yrs. of Bush

Bernie Sanders is a centrist.

[Danger Mouse]

30. So what's your solution?

[Danger Mouse]

39. Huh. No solutions offered.

Duly noted.

[bvar22]

51. Well, some of have other things to do on Saturday night.

(Stretching and Yawning)

OK Danger Mouse.
Here is your solution:
If you didn't cash out your 401K and sell any suburban property your owned in 2006, it is probably too late now.

But you can still..

"Blow up your TV.
Throw away your paper.
Move to the country,
Build you a home.
Plant a little garden.
Eat a lot of peaches."


"Question Authority.
Think for yourself."

Stop sending donations to the DNC, DCCC, and (especially) the DSCC. If you Work for a Living, they will use your money against you.
Find Democrats who consistently support LABOR (Anti-Free Trade), oppose the WAR and vote against Mooney for War, support Single Payer Universal HealthCare, and support Impeachment of the Bush Administration....send your money directly to them.

Think and Read outside the Democrat vs Republican Box.



After you do all that, shoot me a PM, and I'll give you the pass word for Phase 2.

[Jennicut]

31. Obama is liberal

At least according to this website http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm

[CreekDog]

32. Obama's not a centrist, he's the most liberal president we've had

on issue after issue.

[mdmc]

33. bookmarked

wouldn't it be cool if you did have to eat your word? We would all love to see that happen.
alas

[bvar22]

35. I would LOVE to eat those words.

Care to make your own predictions?

[mdmc]

45. sure thing my friend

prediction -
Obama will get re-elected.
prediction -
re-election will be the most progressive thing Obama does.

That is all I really want or expect out of him. :(

[BlooInBloo]

34. Oh that's a cute try we haven't seen yet! Obama = Reid.

Very very slick.

[bvar22]

36. I didn't say that.

I said they are both "Centrists".

But I'm not interested in the labels.
I'm interested in the Policy.

I made some predictions.
Lets hear yours.

BlooInBloo's predictions for 4 years from now:

1) The Status of the Armed Occupation of Iraq:

2)The Status of the Escalation of the War in Afghanistan:

3)The Status of Health Care in America:

4)The Status of Regulation and Accountability of Corporate America:

5)The Degree to which the Bush Administration will be held accountable:

Lets hear them, BlooInBloo.
I went down on paper, and I stand by my predictions.
What are yours?

[Jennicut]

37. Predictions, are you a psychic?

No one really knows how Obama will govern in every aspect, all we have is his Senate record to fall back on and campaign promises.

[bvar22]

40. Exactly my point.

Thanks.

[Jennicut]

42. Right, so you are making predictions based on what, your gut feelings?

What if your gut has indigestion?

[bvar22]

48. NO.

Based on his performance in the Senate, and his campaign....
just like I stated in the OP and enumerated through this thread.

[BlooInBloo]

38. Oooh! Do you double-dog dare me?

Look at the BIG SCARY internetz man!!!!!

BWAHAHAHA!!!!!

[tide72]

41. If you are correct and the economy is still in the tank in 2012...

then I would expect the US to take a sharp turn to either the right or to the left, depending on who gets their message out more effectively. The only thing that happens when you're in the middle of the road is that you get run over.

[depakid]

43. The difference is that Reid is akin to a Quisling (a collaborator)

Obama is more interested in forming consensus. Unfortunately, sometimes the results end up to be the same.

[bvar22]

53. I really wish ....

...Obama was as concerned with forming a consensus with the Left as he is with compromising with Republicans. 8 years of Clinton triangulation with Republicans had the net effect of moving the country further Right....to the delight of conservative Democrats.
And now, Obama has brought them all back.



The Left has been stiffed again, hence my predictions in the OP.

There is no greater graphic representation of the REALITY in Washington than these 2 recent debates in the Senate:
1) The No Strings Attached Bailout of Wall Street Banks.

2) The Obama Stimulus Package (Why oh Why do the Democrats use Republican Frames?)

Anyone who watched these two spectacles can have no lingering doubts about who our government (Democrats & Republican) really works for.

NOW we have Your Children’s Money too !!!
And there is not a fucking thing you can do about it!
Now THIS is “Post-Partisanship” !
Better get used to it!!
Hahahahahahahahaha!

[Bonobo]

44. As long as YOU say so.

[uponit7771]

46. I respectfully disagree, Obama might be centrist in implementation and planning but not views ...

...relative to what we've had for the last 30 years.

[LWolf]

52. That's seemed obvious to me all along.

Which is exactly why I've never been swept up in the incredible emotional catharsis and euphoria that Obama's election seems to have brought to others.

Authentic, positive change didn't "win."

[cherish44]

54. Centrists positions get a bad rap

Apparently there are lots of people on both the right and the left who consider it wishy-washy to be a centrist. I personally consider centrists as having a lot of maturity and common sense but I know many disagree. Bottom line if politics continues to a contest between conservatives, liberals and centrists to see who can be the most obstinate, we're not going to get a damn thing done.

[depakid]

55. A bad rap for what? Crashing the world economy?

Contaminating our food?

That doesn't sound very mature to me. Sounds more like a child trying to please an abusive parent.