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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:04 AM
Original message
Paul Krugman has no concept of Politics
Edited on Mon Feb-09-09 11:13 AM by Kurt_and_Hunter
Pangloss was the philosopher in “Candide” who maintained that this is the “best of all possible worlds.” Whatever example you threw at him—disease, famine, war—he would think up a way to cast it as the best possible thing.

If you start from the proposition that Barack Obama is the “best of all possible leaders”… the smartest and most effective human being who has ever drawn breath, then certain conclusions follow.

The latest Panglossian argument is that if the stimulus bill is puny and ill-targeted and endangers us all by failing to recognize the magnitude of the deflationary risk it is still the best of all possible outcomes.

Since it will barely pass, that proves that nothing better could pass and that the President has done a masterful job of wringing the best possible response from congress, given the politics of the situation.

And when an economist points out the flaws in what the Obama administration is doing it is said that he is clueless about politics… cannot understand the political realities of the composition of Congress.

There is, however, an alternative explanation of events that has the virtue of bearing some resemblance to reality: The administration has displayed, on the economy, a deficit of both understanding and leadership.

Here is what I assumed would happen when president Obama was elected… starting November 5th we would have seen a maximal effort to lead America toward a set of economic solutions. A large transition office should have been full of top economic minds crafting a comprehensive plan that would be revealed in President Obama’s inaugural address. This effort would have been leak-free and generated a measure of suspense and hope.

“I don’t know what they’re going to come up with but I support it because we need to do something.”

Whatever was laid out in the inaugural address after months of anticipation would have been 90% of the way to enactment, carrying the full hope and emotion of the transition of power.

Say Obama had laid out a 2.5 trillion dollar program: 500 billion of relief (aid to states, food stamps, unemployment), one trillion of demand-side stimulus (infrastructure, consumer debt interest relief, payroll tax holiday, short-term income tax rebates up to $250,000), 500 billion to recapitalizing the lending sector and 500 billion of direct intervention in the housing market.

That program would have enjoyed great national momentum and passed with a few face-saving tweaks. (And had he proposed a mere 100 billion program it would have enjoyed great national momentum and passed with a few face-saving tweaks.)

That’s the politics. That… is… Leadership. Congress is not a rigid input-output system... a mathematical set of fixed quantities. Congress is a body composed of human beings with constituencies and shifting political interests who can be led.

It never crossed my mind that Obama would NOT commit the full prestige and emotion of his ascendance to power to a daring and comprehensive package, but he didn’t. We will all pay some price, large or small, for it not being done. As the saying goes, you only get one chance to make a first impression. Every subsequent move will now be harder than it needed to be, opposition more reflexive, difference-splitting more accepted.

Going forward I hope that something will be learned.

(Obama is doing great on everything else, but the economy is THE thing——that thing upon which both the Obama Presidency and the future fortunes and direction of the nation and the Democratic Party hang.)
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. Nancy Pelosi and David Obey told him they were writing their own
bill.

This isn't Obama's plan, it is Pelosi's plan. They refused to let him and the best minds in the country write it.

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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. No, Obama backed off and let them do it.
He gave an outline to them to fill in. Pelosi's plan was not horrible. It was a bit overloaded with pork. The Senate version is to light. It needs to come together in the conference committee between the House and Senate. This is how politics and passing bills works.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. That begs the question: Why isn't it Obama's plan?
I don't question what you say. I question how it comports with the notion that there has been effective planning and leadership.

Saying, "Here, you guys write something" is an fairly obvious mis-step.

Obama is probably a good salesman but took office without a broad coherent plan to sell. It's an unforced error, and one that should be learned from.

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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
38. Oh, Like Hillary Did With Healthcare Reform in 1993?
Dictating to congress on what to put into a bill does not work very well.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
2. Sorry that is just rubbish. A $2.5 trillion plan would have passed easily?
you know that there are still republicans in the senate and house right? How would we get 60 votes in the senate with a $2.5 trillion plan right after the reports of the waste $700 billion bailout?

The real world doesn't play out as you described in your perfect scenario. If Obama has revealed a secret $2.5 trillion plan in his inaugural address ....it would not be pretty at all.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. He would have been impeached, with an agonized Ben Nelson casting the deciding vote
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. I'll listen to anything Krugman has to say when he recants his support of outsoucing
Until then, Mr. "In Praise of Cheap Labor" can bite me.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. you are distorting Krugman's views--he's pro-union, pro-labor
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. No he's not. I've heard Krugman speak in praise of outsourcing more than once. nt
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. And I have already sent you a link to the article HE wrote
http://www.slate.com/id/1918

Extolling the virtues of sweatshops. He has never owned up to the role HE played in this debacle, telling Americans that outsourcing was a good thing and would lead to better jobs here.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. thanks for that
I started researching Krugman after I saw you post this and dayum he is pro free trade, pro cheap labor, pro insurance mandates, etc., etc.

I'm fine with less than purism but the impression some have here of Kruguman definitely does not resemble his record, and I think it bears mentioning in this ridiculous Krugman-off going on around here.

Thanks for enlightening me.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. The man was an advisor to Reagan, fergodssake.
Yes, people can change and Krugman did to a certain extent, but he's still got a long way to go before he can truly be considered a liberal.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. Does the name Larry Summers ring a bell?
He was also on Reagan's council of Economic Advisers.
Oh by the way, Obama has just hired on Martin Feldstein, who was Reagan's Chief Economic Adviser.

Why don't you try something more substantial, since this line of bullshit isn't working? Go ahead I won't come back to check on you.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. great article!
unless you fit into this catagory, I suppose -

"Such moral outrage is common among the opponents of globalization--of the transfer of technology and capital from high-wage to low-wage countries and the resulting growth of labor-intensive Third World exports. These critics take it as a given that anyone with a good word for this process is naive or corrupt and, in either case, a de facto agent of global capital in its oppression of workers here and abroad.

But matters are not that simple, and the moral lines are not that clear. In fact, let me make a counter-accusation: The lofty moral tone of the opponents of globalization is possible only because they have chosen not to think their position through. While fat-cat capitalists might benefit from globalization, the biggest beneficiaries are, yes, Third World workers."

--------------

Have you ever spent time in a true 3rd world country? The situation is never as clear cut as folks like you make it out to be. Often the line between being "exploited" and starving is a very narrow one. Which is not a defence of said exploitation, but an acknowledgement that the world isn't as black and white as you would like it to be.

Which is really the point of Krugman's article...

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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Have you noticed that when you outsource jobs and reduce wages
In the country that is the #1 consumer of manufactured goods, eventually the whole thing comes crashing around everyone's ears as it is now? Can't have cheap labor in an economy that is based on consumer spending and unending growth. Have you also noticed that low wages combined with lax regulations in the producing country and here lead to things like lead in toys? Did you know that India has imposed a blanket moratorium on Chinese-made toys because of the safety issues, while we're just getting around to it here? Meanwhile you have people like Erin Burnett on CNBC admonishing us that being concerned with lead in toys is bad because that means we'll pay more for the toys. Not that anyone is buying toys, or anything, right now. Yep, that cheap labor that Krugman praised is working out real well, for everyone. :sarcasm:
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. you are simplifying
that's ok, it's what I expected -

based on your mischaracterization of Krugman's article.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. No, it really is that simple
Krugman et. al., made a cottage industry out of using fanciful bullshit-ese to bamboozle people into accepting outsourcing.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. Imbalance Between Production and Consumption Nations Is Why We're In This Mess
You cannot have never-ending consumption and expect a healthy economy.
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Every Man A King Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. yep he is still a free-trading moron n/t
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. Neither do you
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Baikonour Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. Yawn.
More long-winded off-the-mark Krugman hate.

Next!
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Too long-winded for you to read, obviously
Replying to the subject line without reading the OP is fraught with peril

(That's okay. We've all done it)

:hi:
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Baikonour Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. If you want people to read your posts, try using less sensational titles.
:hi:
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. LOL!
Wow, are you off the mark.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. You start your post with a reference to a philosopher so enthralled by his philosophy
Edited on Mon Feb-09-09 01:11 PM by Occam Bandage
that he is unable to see the world for how it is. You then link that to an exceptionalist view of Obama, in which he can do no wrong and all he touches is gold.

You then post the following words: "Say Obama had laid out a 2.5 trillion dollar program...that program would have enjoyed great national momentum and passed with a few face-saving tweaks." Your justification for how Republicans and moderates would have supported such an enormous bill is that it would have been proposed by Obama, who is an exceptional figure for whom a supportive touch transmutes bills into political gold.

Surely I do not need to hammer my point home any further, my good philosopher.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. my thesis is that incoming Presidents get incredible latitude politically
my thesis is that incoming Presidents get incredible latitude politically when dealing with the Number One problem facing the country if they lay out exactly what they want in a coherent way.

It has nothing to do with Obama's magical personal qualities. It has to do with his electoral margin (which is considered large by contemporary standards), the magnitude of public concern with the crisis at issue and the history of when presidents wield the most political power.

That is right out of the gate before being slowly dragged down into minutiae.

A president with a mandate can do almost anything provided he ties it directly to himself. There's an element of risk because the new president mst equate his plan failing with him failing. Nobody wants a failed president two weeks into a term. (I think that was even Bob Kerry's stated reason for casting the winning vote on the Clinton tax increase.)

The current bill will pass with 60 votes. A 2.5 trillion package would have been whittled down to 2.2 and passed with 60 votes.

(Or with 51 votes if Obama led forcing a for-real filibuster with intense pressure on Republicans to not obstruct. It's extraordinary for a man with such political capital to be neutered by malleable senate rules.)

That's practical, not pie in the sky. Presidents tend to get one magic wish right when they are inaugurated and it shouldn't be wasted. (Even Bush got his giant tax cuts through the Democratic Senate despite losing the election!)
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specimenfred1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. You guys got a manifesto?
Repukes all have 'em, why don't you?
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themaguffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
16. Krugman is an economist. Can you grasp that?
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. "Yes, I am going to marry a carrot."
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blueclown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
25. Another great progressive getting thrown under the changemobile.
For daring to question Obama.

Why can't you people address his points and not lob character attacks at him?
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Why can't you people read the OP? n/t
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. There's nothing progressive about Krugman's pro free trade, pro cheap labor POV.
If he's going to continue to lob cheap shots at Obama from the comfort of his NY Times Op-Ed column vis a vis centrism, Krugman's got some 'splaining to do himself.
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Quezacoatl Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
28. I think Krugman understands politics
Obama's doing exactly what he said he would and I think he will succeed but there are many voices from the right trying to define the plan on their terms.

The President NEEDS voices from the left to be heard too. I suspect the President is not unhappy with Krugman's views at all. I suspect he welcomes them and may even encourage them.

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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
29. Obama's mistake was that he expected the GOP to accept his moderate stimulus proposal as is.
Obama is kind of naive on the subject of the GOP, IMHO. He believes that you can actually reach a consensus with them.
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carpe diem Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
30. with all due respect...
I think you are out of your mind if you think Obama could have proposed a 2 trillion anything and gotten it passed...I think you're doing some magical thinking Moday morning quarterbacking...
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. And we never went to the moon, slashed taxes insanely, passed civil rights acts or invaded Iraq
Obama is greatly over-estimated on DU except when it counts. Then he's as helpless as a baby in the face of the mean Senate rules and wing-nut radio hosts.

Presidents pull off really big things--good and bad--all the time.

Under the circumstances a first-rate politician would have had little trouble moving such a package if he had the will.

And Obama is a first-rate politician.

Also, I don't Monday-morning quarterback. I mean what I say. The phrase "what I expected" doesn't mean "what I today wish I had expected."

It means what I expected at the time. I am not an Obama sycophant but I have considerable regard for the man and genuinely assumed he would do some really obvious things.



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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
31. on the contrary: Krugman is a political economist....the emphasis is on politics
that's the type of leftist economist he is

a salt water economist
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specimenfred1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
34. Barf.
Another person who's smarter than Nobel Prize winners, LMFAO!
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Another person laughing at the person who didn't read the op.
Or any of the other comments on the thread.
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