We Are Still Divided (but the division comes from within)

[berni_mccoy]

I've seen the fighting going on here and it's disturbing. I wonder if we will ever heal as a nation. What are we fighting over? In my opinion, nothing worthy of a fight. At first I was puzzled by what was going on. We WON! What is everyone here fighting each other for? Certainly there has been trolling going on. Certainly, many have fallen victim to believing what is spoon fed by the MSM.

But there is a greater divide among the members of Democratic Underground. And the division comes about from an internal struggle to truly believe in what Obama campaigned on and to never trust a single Republican again. I find myself internally conflicted on this issue, and I see fights breaking out all the time here.

There are some here who are absolutely adamant that we should, in their words, "Fuck the Republicans". A part of me agrees.

There are others here who are also unwilling to allow others to criticize Obama because he's barely had a chance to prove his platform. A part of me agrees with this as well.

I've come to the conclusion, however, that we are not going to see the Democrats in Congress and an Obama Administration turn away from Republicans. One of Obama's goals was to heal this nation, not continue the poltical tactics that divided us. We need all Americans to focus on doing what needs to be done. And because Democrats don't have 60 seats in the Senate, this means politically, that we are going to need (some) Republicans to go along. We aren't going to get 80-vote majorities on a stimulus bill. We are going to get one or two centrist Republicans to cross the isle. And the reason is simple. They don't want to trust us either.

How sad is that? We've become so divided that we are willing to throw out any good that might be accomplished for the sake of some sort of vengeance or payback. And believe me, I'd love nothing more than to see more Republicans lose their place in our government. They truly FUBARed this nation. But I'm not willing to sacrifice the future and the world and the country that my children are going to inherit in order to get that payback.

Many feel that this means there will be no justice. I do not equate vengeance with justice. I believe justice *is* coming for those who committed crimes and for those who divided this nation. Working with whatever Republicans we need in order to solve our current crisis does not mitigate that justice needs to be served.

This is what Obama has promised. I believe he will deliver it. And I am willing to wait and see before passing any sense of judgement on him or the Democratic leadership in Congress. It took eight (and more) years for the GOP to truly destroy this nation. It's going to take just as long to repair it.

[Adelante]

1. Recommended

:thumbsup:

[Starry Messenger]

2. Nice post berni.

I'm in "wait and see" mode myself. Some days I feel like the Democratic Party is like Charlie Brown to the Repubs Lucy with the football. We trust too much. I would like to see this all work out as you and others say. But I appreciate it more when people on this website champion progressive causes. If I wanted to read about being supportive of the right wing, I would read elsewhere. And often do these days. Knowing we might have to do it is not the same as liking it. :) My .02 and YMMV.

[berni_mccoy]

3. I like your peanuts analogy.

[MadHound]

4. I think part of what you're seeing is a dynamic within the party that has never been resolved

That's the break between the left wing of the party and the rest of the party, the moderates and conservatives. The left wing wants some payback for all their hard work before and during the campaign. They see other factions getting their reward, yet the left really isn't getting their share of the pie.

Meanwhile a fair number of centerists are stating that hey, too bad, Obama ran as a centerist, he's going to govern as a centerist, and once again, too damn bad for the left.

This truly irks the left, especially when folks like Kucinich have been so right on the issues for so long, especially when the left has done so much for the party, especially when they see corporatists, centerists and Republicans getting included in the big tent, but they're being left out in the cold.

Frankly, as a centerist, that's the risk that Obama takes, he's going to get blasted from both the right and the left. If he had made some sort of concerted outreach to the left, much as he did with the right, then I doubt he would be getting hammered as hard as he is. But since he in essence snubbed the left, they will be quick to jump on every single fault, and 2012 might wind up being a repeat of 2000.

[Still Sensible]

6. I think you are right. And there is something else

The far left have lived through 28 years of seeing the FAR RIGHT become more and more powerful and "get their way" virtually unchallenged the last eight years. To some extent, they want their turn to have their opportunity to "get their way."

Unfortunately, politics and events conspired to give the right wing of the GOP the opportunity to do this to America. The irrational anointing of Ronald Reagan by both the right and the middle launched the era. Successes that he certainly deserved partial credit for--such as the fall of the Soviet empire--he was sainted, despite the fact that that "fall" came as the result of policies of seven administrations.

Riding that popularity, the GOP went into the 90's about to gain their first majorities in a half century. Only a third party candidacy to split conservative votes allowed Bill Clinton to win the White House. And to stay there for a second term, he pretty much had to try and govern as a "republican-lite" in many ways and be fortunate to face a weak candidate.

Once the popular Clinton (who took an incredible beating from the RW, including impeachment over lying about a blowjob) left office, we got Bush, who would likely have been a one term president were it not for the fact that 9/11 happened and set up the ideal situation for the GOP and RW to parlay fear, fear, fear into a cowing of both the media and much of the opposition. They parlayed that into a second term and finishing the deregulation and bank/corporate favoring legislation job that started in the Reagan 80s and accelerated in the Gingrich 90s.

The good news is that it took about six years for the tide to rightfully start to turn on the Bushies and Cheneys. The media started to grow a pair (though many remain eunuchs), and the opposition finally started finding their voice. Wins in 2006 and then getting democrats back on top in Congress and the White House in '08 is hopefully the start of dragging the country back to the left. The first three weeks have seen some events that should give the more liberal among us hope. On some issues, there have been signs that the administration is not ready to move forward as fast as some would hope.

As a center-left/left-center democrat (I know I'm more liberal than Obama and less liberal than Kucinich), I feel pretty good about what I've seen so far.

Unfortunately, the events and politics have not yet conspired to give the far left the payback opportunity they so want after watching their fundie and RW counterparts screw us for the last 8 years.

[stillcool]

7. The 'left' the 'center', the 'right'...

are just more labels, designed to divide. There is no 'we'. It is a foreign concept, and very unpalatable. We love to have our enemies, wherever we can find them. Except of course where they are. The media is so good at managing perception, and we just love to play along.

[Sequoia]

5. "A house divided against itself cannot stand" Abe Lincoln

and a verse in the Bible somewhere.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. What no one likes to admit

It that clearly staking a 'center' position always means dividing the two sides. If one is committed not to being correct, but to being 'the center' then one must by needs make division, and stand at the center of that division. The center is not an actual place, one can not say 'I'm a centerist' and mean anything without reference to both sides.
A person can have a moderate postion here and there, but a person who is always in the center has to measure both ends and walk to that center. And in fact, it is the centerists who make the wall that divides. The word 'centerist' is best replaced not with 'moderate' but with 'opprotunist'.

[berni_mccoy]

9. Interesting. You see someone who is willing to listen and compromise as an opportunist

While I see them as someone who wants to solve problems.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. No. that is not what I said, now was it?

I said someone who is committed to having the position that is in the center has to look both ways to know what the center, is, what their position is. Such a person takes the middle as a tactic, and that is just making a division. If one happens to see both sides, that is one thing. But when one says 'I am always at the center' they are by definition allowing others to establish their position, and stating that other opinions are 'out of balance'.
My position in life is most often that of broker of compromise. Listener to all. That does not mean that my opinion is staked out in relation to the opinions of others. Taking the place of a mediator does not mean I have to actually BE the center, just see it. Big dif. I don't have to hold that place, just find it. And rather than put myself in the middle between to parties, we all come to the center as one. If I staked out the center and said 'that is me' I am forcing both sides to come to me, not to agreement.

[Sequoia]

14. Now what would ole Honest Abe say to that.

He was talking about slavery, and as we well know it did divided the country. I wonder what sort of people were "center" on that issue.

[GinaMaria]

13. a quick question for you

Does the center move or is it fixed? I've been playing with that for a while. Is it the median or the mean?

Are there two polar and extreme opposites fixed on a political continueum with an exact center that is fixed? so that it can be defined and people can determine if they are left or right of it. The definition never changes as it is always the spot half way between the two ends.

or

Does the Center change as things shift. So for example if people/voters showed a clear move to the left, would the center become the 'average' or mean of a certain populations' view? So if the country moved left the center would shift left too? The definition would constantly be changing.

Does the distinction impact the discussion?

[ulysses]

10. I'm not interested in vengeance.

The fact that I'd like to see conservatism as an acceptable mode of political thought plowed under and used to feed growing things like the shit that it is aside, I want 11/08 to still mean something the next time the GOP comes to power. I want the next dittohead to run the Oval Office to have to deal with working on reversing what *we* did for a couple of years before he gets to start ruining the country again.

It took eight (and more) years for the GOP to truly destroy this nation. It's going to take just as long to repair it.

Longer, if he keeps insisting on including the same stupid motherfuckers who destroyed it in the process beyond their elected numbers.

[GinaMaria]

12. I posted some of this yesterday but it fits in better here

there are a few things going on here. The forward focus of most human beings, our urgent economic/political situation and the Changing democratic party.

1. It's very common for people to look forward and focus on achieving goals. This can lead to a feeling of 'we have so far to go' and 'we aren't getting any where'. We sometimes need to remind ourselves to stop for a moment and look back at all we've done. But in doing so, we gain an altered perspective (usually). I've tried to keep track of weekly progress here http://journals.democraticunderground.com/GinaMaria

2. It's desperate out there. People are suffering now and needed relief before yesterday. Depending on your situation the urgency translates to 'not moving fast enough'. If you are not one of those who have lost your job, benefits, savings, home etc., you are still bombarded with daily messages about layoffs, unemployment numbers, bankrupt businesses, collapsing industries, economic recession/depression, obstacles in government and our culture/society that minimize the forward progress in our minds. It's like the balancing of scales and it can feel like the obstacles to progress far outweigh positive forward movement, or for every step forward we take two steps back. Again, the best antidote I've found for this is to take a moment to look at accomplishments weekly.

3. There are many people who formerly identified themselves as republican or moderate conservatives or even fiscal conservatives that walked away from the Republican party over the last few years over the neoCON agenda abandoning their core beliefs and political philosophies. It is not surprising that more than a few may have migrated to the Democratic Party and to this board. The independent voters have always been the most mobile and it makes sense that we have an influx of independents as well as conservatives. While these people are not freepers they are more conservative than the progressive (read VERY liberal) people who 8 years ago flocked to this board. There has been and probably will be a great deal of disagreement between the two (or more) groups. The more conservative among us may not agree completely with President Obama's plans. The more liberal among us may not feel comfortable with President Obama's inclusion of the opposition especially neoCON inclusion. We will eventually need to make some decisions as a party. Can we merge the wide range of views into one party? Will some split off? This conversation is coming quicker than I ever expected.
It has been brewing a while, but seems to be near boiling over currently.

I believe awareness is the first step. Knowing this is what is going on, we can consciously make decisions through analysis and alignment to a bigger picture. This is something we need to start talking about now. It needs to be a rational discussion with the understanding that we have to do our own reach across the aisle.

Do we have what it takes to stretch the label of democrat to include, conservative democrats, moderate democrats, green democrats, social democrats, fiscal democrats, progressive democrats, Christian democrats and every other faction represented in the voters who voted for President Obama. This is a tall order, but if we find a way, to stick together or at least work with each other, we could redefine party politics and possibly move from a 2 party system to a multi-party system. This needs a lot of thought and discussion. It would not be surprising if this was a global shift and not unique to our country.

In the meantime, we need to work to find out the other person's point of view and work together to see the progress made. As more people with different political beliefs begin to join in here, giving others the benefit of the doubt will become increasingly important. We can all make an effort in these tough economic times to be more generous and patient with each other. Many DUers are going hungry, or losing their homes, jobs, cars etc. We need to stick together and look out for each other. No one's future is certain.

I would ask everyone to be more patient, and really extend that to people you feel are foolish or counterproductive. They may or may not be, but they probably think the same of you. It's time to start reaching out and understanding where people's perspectives were born. We are facing many things right now that require us to look out for one another. The more we care about each other the more likely we are to come through this with minimal damage.