Dean attacking Clark may help out Kerry

[zulchzulu]

It looks like Dean and Co. will be blasting out on Clark full throttle in the coming weeks and months.

I'm guessing this will help out Kerry because the hits Clark takes on some of his record may make people who like Clark for his military record finally look at Kerry's for his.

Clark will have to go on the defensive against Dean and both of them will be giving each other black eyes.

If Kerry can stay out of the mudfight, he may gain more support.

On edit:
I was talking with someone who recently has become interested in the election (like most people), and he was for Clark because of his military background. I asked him if he had heard of Kerry and his military record and he apparently hadn't.

I mentioned that while I like Clark (he's second on my list this week), I preferred Kerry because he has been a Democrat for over 30 years with a stellar progressive record to prove it.

It opened this person's eyes that Kerry was someone to look at as well.

My take is that a lot of people are pretty soft on all the candidates.

[GainesT1958]

1. Clark and his people will not attack Dean...

Only defend their man...and successfully, I'm sure.

B-)

[thedudeingeorgia]

2. Dean attacking Clark

I don't think that Kerry will be the beneficiary of Dean attacks on Clark; I believe that Clark, himself, will benefit from the personal attacks simply because people will ask themselves why Dean wasn't openly critical of Clark until Clark has started to eat away at Dean's support nationwide....

I think that Howard Dean sees the writing on the wall. Based on the latest polls, Dean and Clark are in a dead heat nationwide simply because Democrats nationwide see Dean as a modern day Michael Dukakis and probably have also asked themselves "Who is the last Democrat from the North to win the Presidency?" For those of you who don't know, it was JFK, over 40 years ago....

[bearfartinthewoods]

4. which DUers is it that has that very complimentary quote by dean re clark?

i bet that will be a keeper..

[adadem]

9. Maybe

in these times...people want another JFK (John F Kerry).

I'm not discounting Clark...I can cast a vote for him...I just wish he had been voting Democratic for a (much)longer time and that he had some domestic policy experience..still, I think he can do it.

[Renew Deal]

3. I don't think people for Clark will haev a problem.

He might have to fight for people on the fence and undecideds. Clark can slam Dean on this in a debate in a big way. All he has to do is call him a partisan politician that only cares about himself (or the party) and doesn't care about the country. That would hurt Dean in a big way.

[zulchzulu]

5. Clark has to start showing up for debates

I understand your point, but Clark not making the debates recently is troubling, imo.

[adadem]

10. I agree

opting out of Iowa may come to hurt him...I hope not.

[KittyWampus]

32. "Start" Showing Up At Debates? He Participated In 3 or 4 Already

[blm]

6. Nah...Kerry's engaged in a battle. He won't sit it out.

Kerry and Clark know what they're doing. Kerry will take most of the heat and will keep attacking Dean's lies and inconsistencies. Clark will benefit but I don't doubt that both men are aware of that dynamic.

[sandnsea]

7. Dean is the attacker

Hopefully it'll make people see that and step back and take a second look altogether. That can benefit Kerry. He has had to take it to Dean because of these attacks. It has allowed Clark to benefit from his "high-road" campaign. If people make that connection and reject Dean's attacking campaign, then they'll take a second look at Kerry. I don't see Clark getting into any mudfights just yet, so it'll be a choice between the known and the unknown, Kerry and Clark. We'll just have to hope Kerry can get out his strong record of fighting for all the things people care about all these years.

[Hep]

8. Pay attention. Kerry attacking Clark too

You have to read the articles when they're posted. The facts shoot huge holes in your "theories"

[zulchzulu]

14. Where?

The only thing I've seen Kerry say about Clark is that he would not attack Clark...

Post your links.

[Hep]

16. All to happy to help anyone who is

so fixated on opposing Dean that they don't even pay attention to their own candidate:

Kerry, too, was taking notice of Clark's progress -- and fighting back with themes similar to Dean's. Unlike Clark, Kerry is also competing in the Jan. 19 Iowa caucuses, where most recent polls have shown Dean ahead but in a fight against Rep. Richard A. Gephardt (Mo.), who has pinned his hopes on a late surge there.

Kerry flew from Iowa to Manchester on Tuesday night and was up early Wednesday with an anti-Clark message. "Unlike some other candidates, I have 35 years' experience fighting for the Democratic values of the party," he said, "never having voted for Richard Nixon or Ronald Reagan or others. I've been a Democrat all my life."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63270-2004Jan7.html

[blm]

17. Not an attack. Kerry differentiating himself and noting longetivity of his

opposition to Republican presidents.

Dean attacked Clark saying he was a Republican till recently when the record showed that wasn't true.

[mouse7]

18. I don't believe YOU even believe that

Dean and Kerry said the EXACT SAME THING.

You can't even convince YOU there was a bit of difference to what Kerry and Dean said.

[blm]

19. Dean said Clark was a Repub 25 days ago. That was not true.

He was an independent. Kerry said Clark was a newly minted Democrat. True.

Funny, on such a majorly important issue like the Iraq war, I pointed out how deceptive Dean was in labeling himself antiwar and labeling the others prowar based on a slight difference and you show no outrage.

You show outrage for THIS?

Some proportion to your outrage would be nice to see.

[mouse7]

22. Kerry said he wouldn't attack Clark. He attacked Clark yesterday

Where is YOUR outrage?

[Hep]

23. As long as kerry masks it with

"like SOME candidates", people can claim ignorance and not feel guilty for their double standard.

[blm]

24. That's not an attack. He differentiated

while EMPHASIZING his own record of longetivity in OPPOSING Republican presidents.

Dean attacked by using a lie and did not differentiate his own ACTUALrecord which turns out to be more GOP/corporate friendly than any of the other candidates.

[Hep]

27. Wow

The double standard BS is so thick you need a freaking CHAINSAW to cut through it.

[blm]

37. So you say.

Kerry's statement was meant to highlight HIS long record, Dean's statement was used to label Clark as a Republican. Big difference to fairminded people.

You can see the difference in the way the Clark camp accepts Kerry's differentiating but are still pissed with Dean's attack.

[Hep]

21. Even you

Can't take a leap like that feel good about it.

[blm]

25. I don't leap. i use accuracy and logic.

Hyperbole is the Dean's camp forte.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mouse7]

28. Accuracy... like that USA Today article with quotes from GOP e-mail

which you posted everywhere under the banner of Dean attacks?

A GOP staffer writes a GOP e-mail and sends it to GOP members on a GOP mailing list, and you claim it's a Dean attack.

[blm]

39. USA Today said the quote was from Dean

and the point of the article was that Dean was attacking EVERYBODY and doing it LONG before any of the others.

You are attempting to divert the topic because you know Dean played it mean early and relentlessly and unfairly, even while Kerry was off the trail.

Do you even KNOW your candidate? Most everyone knew about this back then and everyone SHOULD know that Dean was for Biden-Lugar resolution for use of force in Iraq. You didn't know any of this stuff. Why are you so committed when you don't even KNOW serious matters about your candidate?

Maybe you should bother to research some of these matters instead of trying to dog those who know things about your candidate that you don't want to hear.

Here's an at-the-time review that quoted Dean the same.

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/000177.html

Thursday :: Apr 24, 2003

Dean Mouths Off About Gephardt's Plan

With fellow Democrats like Howard Dean, who needs Karl Rove? After Dick Gephardt took the risky and yes, bold step of proposing a universal health care program to be paid for by rolling back President Bush’s heretofore ineffective first-year tax cuts, Howard Dean, who hasn’t yet proposed his own plan, was the first to break Ronald Reagan’s 11th Commandment: thou shall not speak ill of a fellow party candidate.

Other Democratic hopefuls have not put out health plans. Former Vermont governor Howard Dean, a doctor who is expected to make health care a centerpiece of his campaign, called Gephardt's plan a "pie-in-the-sky radical revamping of our health care system."

Ugh. Karl will use that, and he doesn’t even have to think of it himself. And frankly, let’s debate the idea first before we call something “pie in the sky”.
>>>>

http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/21086613.html
>>>>>>>
Gephardt has said he could pass his plan with support from moderate Republicans in Congress.

The congressman traded charges over the plan with fellow candidate Howard Dean, the former governor of Vermont.

"What we don't need is another pie-in-the-sky radical revamping of our health-care system that has no chance of ever being passed," Dean said in a prepared statement.

"Gephardt's plan is not a pie-in-the-sky proposal," said Erik Smith, Gephardt's press secretary. "It is a plan shaped and informed by his years of national leadership in health-care public policy."
>>>>>>

[Feanorcurufinwe]

29. How can you compare that to Dean's flyer attack?

:shrug:

[Hep]

30. Compare?

Where did I do that? I was just pointing out that Kerry is by no means above the fray WRT Clark. I was refuting an assertion, and I did a damn fine job. No need to read any more into it.

Also, I'm still waiting for proof that the flyer attack was Dean's. Waiting and waiting and waiting. If DU were an ER, I'd be dead six times over by now waiting for a substantial argument from Dean critics.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. There is a big, big difference

between differentiating rhetoric, and posting attack flyers on cars at a rival campaign event.

As far as the idea that the flyers didn't come from Dean: they said they were, the media reported it that way, and the campaign has not disputed it. If it wasn't theirs, they would have said so by now.

[Hep]

33. Missing the point 101

Thanks professor for the first lesson in missing the point.

Someone said Kerry has never attacked Clark. I proved them wrong. Now you're talking about flyers on cars. There's a word for this kind of debate tactic, but I don't want to get deleted.

Show me where the campaign said the flyers were theirs. Stop trusting the media just because they support a theory of yours, and not denying a claim is not admitting guilt.

Next?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

34. I guess you got an A in that class

because you either missed or ignored my point.

Kerry's differentiating rhetoric does not rise to the level of an attack. You may disagree with me, but it is pointless (pun intended) to accuse me of missing your point. I got your point, I just disagree with it.

I don't know where I read that the flyer said it came from Dean and I don't have time to do a search for it right now. But even if what I read was wrong, my main point is that the Dean campaign has not disavowed this, as they would have if it didn't come from them.

[Hep]

35. Ignored your point? It's called

refusing to allow you to hijack the discussion.

And here we are again. The Double Standard. Kerry saying, "Unlike SOME candidates" is not only an attack, but it's on the level of a fifth grader. What you're faulting Dean for is having the balls to come out and say it like a man.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

38. We disagree. I think it is an honest disagreement.

If you care to characterize in a more ugly manner, that is your right.



___

"Dean ... having the balls to come out and say it like a man"

lol -- I'm not going to 'touch' that one -- :eyes:

[Larkspur]

11. Clark skipped the last 2 debates and was campaigning in NH

when Kerry and Dean were at the debates, so I'm not surprised by this NH poll changes.

When Dean returns to NH to campaign full throttle, those poll drops for Dean will reverse to climbing again. Dean's a great campaigner and Clark can't keep up with him. I assume Kerry's will change, maybe for the better, after he returns to campaign in NH.

[Hep]

15. deleted

by me

[Bread and Circus]

12. Despite his anemic campaign, I really like Kerry -- I think he has

real cred on a lot of things. For this time in History, he
is my second choice.

If Edwards weren't a trial lawyer, too young, and no FP XP
he would be my third. In that light, Gep is my #3 right now.

Clark is my top choice! Still!

[molly]

13. Kerry is still my number 1

Clark is second and Edwards is third - Gep did very well on Hardball.

[creativelcro]

20. Clark's mini-boost in the polls is fake

Simply, it's "the grass is greener etc" factor because he did not show up at the debates. He'll have to show up at some point, and then people will remember that he's no "greener" than the others...

[LuminousX]

36. Not fake, just not as significant as it first appears.

I believe, and this is a belief based on a very brief analysis so I hold open the option to alter and change this belief as more analysis is done, that Clark's rise in the polls come from two key sources.

1. More people are looking at the candidates and he genuinely appeals to some of those undecideds. They will stay with him to the end.

2. He's the hot topic right now. So some undecideds, feeling pressure not to appear uninformed when asked who do they support, say they support Clark. Some will stay others will either not bother to vote or vote for whoever their girlfriend/boyfriend/mother/father/whoever is voting for.

The rise is real, but not as steep as it appears. Only election day will give us the real numbers.