Cartoon Poll--Racist?

[tekisui]

Poll question: Cartoon Poll--Racist?

[Captain Hilts]

1. Ignorant on how govt. works as well as racist and violent. Fire the bum. nt

[vaberella]

2. Second choice. No doubt about it. n/t

[AlCzervik]

3. with all this publicly i bet people actually bought that rag today.

every time i've been in Manhattan i've been given one for free, offered actually and i always decline.

The Weekly world news was a better publication.

[vaberella]

55. It's free...so I don't think people went out to buy it.

It is a rag, no doubt about it.

[babylonsister]

111. It's now free? Didn't used to be. nt

[vaberella]

125. I'm starting to think it runs both ways.

I also get the Daily News free around my way, although it's not free. I think you can get it free in some places but they also sell it at stores. I know I've gotten it free, maybe I got the bootleg I'm in up in Harlem. ^_^

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. Other: A Blatantly Political Cartoon Aimed To Mock The Stimulus Bill As Crafted By Morons; But

that can be taken as racist by those who choose to do so even if that wasn't the creator's intent.

[damonm]

9. This.

I think Hanlon's Razor again applies; I'm unsure of racial motivations in making the lame-ass cartoon, but I can certainly see how it can be taken as such.

Hanlon's Razor = "never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity".
And as stupidity is a more common human condition than evil...

[Occam Bandage]

11. This. nt

[last_texas_dem]

20. I agree

Judging by the cartoonist's past work, there is ample evidence that he is an unfunny right-wing hack in the league of the dude who drew "Mallard Fillmore" (albeit slightly more artistically talented). There is also evidence that he regularly employs the schtick of tying some weird story in news to mock Democratic policies. I haven't seen any evidence from his work that he is blatantly racist.

At the same time, I'm amazed that no one at the NY Post picked up on the fact that the cartoon was likely to be interpreted as racist, regardless of the author's intent, and had a second thought about running it. Then again, maybe they did think of that and thought it might be a good way to sell papers...

[bunnies]

23. Yep. nt

[Uncle Joe]

30. On the other hand if a stupid, political cartoon without racist intent is seen

by enough people through out the nation as a racist slam, it de facto becomes racist, cartoonist intent or not.

[damonm]

32. Stipulated.

[Uncle Joe]

35. De facto.

[Solomon]

44. LOL The regular crew of racism deniers.

Find every conceivable reason except the real one. You guys kill me.

[damonm]

50. Missed something...

Namely, Uncle Joe said even if it wasn't so in intent, it became so in application. He didn't deny it being racist.
And all I said about it was to invoke
Hanlon's Razor = "never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity".
And as stupidity is a more common human condition than evil...
I'm prepared to believe that this cartoon may NOT have had racial intent behind it at first. That doesn't make it less stupid. And it doesn't mean that it isn't racist - but I'll default to beleiving stupidity as a first position.

[EFerrari]

47. That's how art works. It doesn't mean anything until someone looks at it. n/t

[Uncle Joe]

51. I guess the question is at what point does "art" become hate inciting propaganda

and do you make a distinction?

[EFerrari]

54. Art has always been used or appropriated by propagandists.

The paper had the right to print the cartoon. People have the right to register their response to it.

[Uncle Joe]

56. I agree on both counts, and that's why I and many other people are responding. n/t

[Enthusiast]

52. The creator's intent was racist. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

61. No, It Wasn't.

Not a chance.

[Enthusiast]

66. It was racist! Why would they

put two entirely unrelated subjects in one cartoon? It was racist in its intent.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

76. No, It Wasn't.

Not a chance.

[Common Sense Party]

84. DON'T TAKE AWAY OUR OUTRAGE!!! IT'S ALL WE HAVE!

President Obama did not author the stimulus bill. I am amazed that so many here choose to ignore that. Darn those pesky facts.

[Enthusiast]

93. The author of the toon had one objective

that was to insult Obama and all black Americans. Simple as that. I can't understand you defending it.

[Moochy]

103. You have not read enough of OMC's worthless contrarian shit yet then.

re: "I can't understand you defending it. "

[kwassa]

96. and who made you arbiter of what is racist or not?

Fully 80% of the people who answered the poll think that it is racist.

Over time I've seen you deny the racism in a number of incidents where most thought it existed. This seems to be a particular issue of yours.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

97. "Fully 80% of the people who answered the poll think that it is racist."

Fully 80% of the people are being guided by emotion rather than logic.

Being able to be perceived as racist, and actually BEING racist, are two different things. Logic dictates the former is the case while the artist meant it to be far more harmless.

[kwassa]

99. Oh, I see now.

you are logical and the vast majority of people polled are not.

What a convincing argument!

oh, what, you haven't made an argument?

Check back when you have one.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

100. No.

The vast majority of people answering the poll are doing so out of emotion rather than using logical deduction.

It is clear when using critical thinking and logical deduction that the artist (especially based on his past work) was just taking the most current sensationalist news item and incorporating into a knock against the stimulus bill, portraying that the bill was so badly written that it was done by a chimp. Granted, it is easy to see why those using emotion see racism in it, since it isn't a far leap whatsoever to see the toon in a racist light. But just because it easily can be perceived in such a way does not make it racist in original intent or design. The intent was that which I spoke, regardless of how easy it is to perceive it as otherwise.

That's just the way it is.

[kwassa]

104. Your analysis is way off.

Citing critical thinking and logical deduction does not make it so.

Assigning emotion rather than logic to those who disagree with you denigrates them without making an argument on your part. That is what is called an epic fail around here. It is basically an ad hominem attack.

You've made your analysis of the cartoon. Others have analyzed it differently. Many see racism in it, including me.

The cartoonist did indeed incorporate the sensationalist story of the chimpanzee who was getting shot as a knock against the stimulus bill, but the logical deduction to be made here is that the individual the chimp represents in the cartoon is Obama. He is the individual strongly identified with the current stimulus package, therefore, he is the chimp. To create a caricature of Obama as a chimp is racist.

Got it?

[Bluerthanblue]

105. who was the 'chimp' supposed to represent then?- the chimp is ONE

person- not a group of morans- Why that tragic incident to dis Obama, and not expect it to be seen as blaitent racism?

That people defend it as acceptable, especially here on DU blows my mind.- (what little is left of it)


Sorry OMC, but you are blind on this one-

:hi:

[Hippo_Tron]

123. Intent is a difficult thing to prove since you don't know what the creator was thinking

I think a better argument is that the cartoon is racist whether or not the creator intended it to be.

[ecstatic]

62. "can be taken as racist by those who choose to do so"

And the "those" you refer to are blacks, correct? :eyes:

[THUNDER HANDS]

63. blatantly political? in what respect, charlie?

how does the stimulus bill and the chimp story even relate to eachother?

Shouldn't there have been two dead chimps if they were talking about who crafted the stimulus bill - Pelosi and Reid?

It seems pretty obvious to me that it was a mockery of Obama.

As for inciting violence, I don't think that was his intent, but I definitely think the chimp was supposed to be obama.

[alwysdrunk]

65. Only took 4 posts to get it right

Seeing something that isn't there. I hope we don't have to get used this over the next 4-8 years....

[Common Sense Party]

83. Oh, get used to it.

People LOVE seeing things that aren't there. There will be a LOT of this, much more to come.

[dbmk]

74. If Moron and ChimpanzeeApe/Monkey was generally seen as synonyms I'd buy it

But I just don't see it. My mind does not jump from Chimpanzee to Stupid or the likes.

And I have a hard time accepting that would be the thought process that lead him to tie the two things together.

And the text and image does not specify a group of people as being responsible. But one person - and there can be little doubt as to whom that would be attributed.

[ItNerd4life]

108. Bush was a moron. Bush was depicted as a Chimp. Get it? nt

[Moochy]

102. Of course you give the benefit of doubt to a racist

Par for the fucking course.

[gulliver]

122. Yup.

[8 track mind]

5. woah.....

where the hell did this come from?

[tekisui]

7. Today's NY Post.

[8 track mind]

10. Unforgivable. I hope they have to answer for it. n/t

[Rebubula]

58. Monkey Attack

A chimpanzee attacked a woman and tore her face off. The cops had to come out to shoot the animal to death. This occurred in NYC.

This cartoon may be racist (may) - but it is also a play on that story.

I do not see it as promoting violence.

A stupid mixture of subjects to be sure though.

[Cha]

6. Stupid, Violent, Racist,

and just fucking Ignorant.

[Mira]

8. K&R - in extremis - I am outraged.

[Clear Blue Sky]

12. Congress wrote the bill.

I don't see calling Pelosi or Reid a chimp as racist.

[tekisui]

15. The original structure came from Obama and it is widely regarded as

Obama's bill.

[Heidi]

13. We need a poll for this sh!t? (nt)

[tekisui]

16. Unfortunately.

Many deny what the cartoonist was clearly suggesting.

[Barack_America]

14. Plus there's a woman in critical condition, fighting for her life, due to that chimp.

That cartoon is tacky and awful even if the artist had no racist intent.

[vaberella]

57. Yeah...I heard she lost both her hands and her face was ripped apart.

Shit....man, that's awful.

[hedgehog]

17. Above all else, just palin dumb.

[Beacool]

18. He meant that even a chimp could have written the stimulus bill.

He wasn't equating Obama to a dead monkey.

Didn't we call this guy a chimp for years now?





:eyes:

[tekisui]

19. Did we ever depict him as being shot twice in the chest?

[Beacool]

24. If that chimp had died when Bush was still in power,

to quote Palin, you betcha'. Someone would undoubtedly have made the connection and we would have laughed mightily at the joke.

I think that it's a poor attempt at a political cartoon since it's not that funny, but to think that it was inciting violence against the president is a stretch.

;)

[PretzelWarrior]

46. we would have been laughing if it was Bush? umm. problem.

I think you're way off if that's your thinking. Hey, I agree with the viewpoint expressed by some that this guy was simply pulling from the recent bizarre headline of police gunning down performing chimp as a way to talk about his view that the stimulus bill was bad and could have been thrown together by a chimpanzee.

But don't lump me in with one who would have laughed at a cartoon that many would construe as insinuating violence against the president.

[Beacool]

53. It's convoluted thinking.

Some times a cigar is just a cigar.

:shrug:

[bunnies]

33. Oh but Bush "looks like a chimp" so it was ok to call him that.

Never mind that its the same argument racists use when justifying equating black people with monkeys. :banghead:

[THUNDER HANDS]

64. he also walked like a chimp too

with his arms all bowed to the side and his shoulders hunched up.

[dbmk]

71. No, he implied that a chimp wrote it.

Not that it could have.

[psychmommy]

73. i didn't. i won't let my kid wear monkeys or watermelons on her

shirt. she was traumatized and didn't understand. during the campaign i was able to show her why. racism runs deep in this country. black folks don't play around with the simeon references.

[Beacool]

85. I can understand that, but personally I love monkeys.

I have a little Curious George hanging from my rear view mirror. I have several stuffed monkeys that people have given me and I thought the sock monkey of Obama that some poor misguided soul created was cute, I only wished that they had made a blonde version one of Hillary.

I also like watermelons and have a summer top with a watermelon slice done in beads on its front.

But, since I'm not AA, I don't feel negative about either of these things.

:shrug:

[psychmommy]

98. i don't feel negative about them.

but, i am aware of the stereotype. i have a white friend she"s younger than i am. she comes to the hospital when my daughter was born. she brought me a rose and my baby received a stuffed baby monkey with pacifier and diaper. i know she didn't mean anything negative by it. i later told her and she was crushed. never crossed her mind but, she understood when i told her. i enjoy watermelon and chicken also. i am not wearing these things on my clothes so some racist fool can say something out of the way to me. i showed my daughter the video with the old dude and the monkey-little hussein. now she understands. when someone says something sideways to her she will know what is what.

[Beacool]

106. Isn't that sad?

It's sad that due to some historical racist crap your daughter could never wear a t-shirt with a monkey on it (even if it's Curious George) because it could be given a different meaning by some jerk. A girl of another race or ethnic group could wear it without a thought in her head about it.

BTW, I would have loved the chimp with the pacifier and diaper. I don't blame your friend, since I like monkeys, I too probably would have never thought about it.

I do have a silly anecdote about stereotypes. I was raised in various countries and went to boarding school abroad, so I wasn't aware of some things. I remember being in FL as a teenager trying to figure out how to buy a watermelon. An AA man was right next to me buying one too. I didn't think anything of it and I asked him how does one pick one. He was nice about it and showed me how to pick a sweet one (you tap them and hear the sound that it makes). My mother scolded me when I got home because she said that he could have taken it the wrong way and be insulted by the question. Well, I must have looked clueless enough that he took no offense, but I learned my lesson.

:D

[psychmommy]

116. haha.

we have to remember that everyone isn't hateful and laugh sometimes, like with the monkey with the diaper. things have to be taken in context. i gave in a little and got her jammies with a monkeys on it and my mom got her blanket with a monkey on it.

[mvd]

21. If not racist, the violence implied is still inexcusable

But I voted racist and inciting violence, as well as being irresponsible. The NY Post knows the history behind this imagery and African Americans, and they are right-wing.

[jberryhill]

36. A chimp was shot to death by police yesterday

...it was a top story, and the cartoon appears to be a reference to a specific chimp.

[mvd]

40. Yes, that's why I voted how I did

:hi:

[MadMaddie]

79. So why link the Stimulus bill to the shooting of the monkey?

Two totally unrelated events.

Unless you use the monkey as a metaphor for lets' say a "black man" who happens to be the US President.

[dmallind]

22. I don't get it.

If it's supposed to be Obama sure, but he didn't write the stimulus bill.

[Beacool]

26. That's the point, it wasn't meant to be Obama.

The cartoonist thinks that the stimulus bill is such a mess that a chimp must have written it. Now that the chimp is dead, who's going to write the next one?

It's a lame cartoon....

:eyes:

[tekisui]

27. He developed the frame of it, and they call it Obama's Stimulus Bill.

:shrug:

[mvd]

28. Yep

I just don't see the "even a chimp could have done the job" angle. Any way I look at it, it's offensive in some way.

[Chulanowa]

25. Wow. What the fuck?

Even if we're looking at a simply racist cartoon... I have no idea what point it is trying to convey.

I hold that it's racist - perhaps unintentionally so - but even if it weren't, it's easily one of the worst politicxal cartoons I've seen. Even Mallard Fillmore doesn't bring me this level of confusion-by-stupid.

[jberryhill]

38. Take a look at this picture

This is the chimp that was shot by police yesterday:




The point appears to be that the specific chimpanzee shot yesterday was the author of the stim bill, as a means of criticizing the stim bill.

The reference is so obscure, though, that the cartoonist should have thought about what it might suggest to others.

[Chulanowa]

39. Yeah, I gathered that much

I also figured the joke was an attempt at the whole "an infinite number of monkeys" thing.

I know what the cartoon is referencing. It's just a terribly shitty cartoon

[jberryhill]

42. Agree - big time stupid /nt

[SIMPLYB1980]

29. It sure is. Saw that shit this morning.

:puke:

[backscatter712]

31. Is the Pope Catholic? n/t

[Jennicut]

34. I find this offensive on 3 levels....its violent, its racist, and it mocks what happened to the poor

woman in Stamford Connecticut when Travis the chimp attacked her. Its been all over our local news and it was a real tragedy. Its disgusting on all levels.

[demokatgurrl]

48. I agree, it's sickening. And racist. And inciting violence. And even

anti-police. All at once.

[Jennicut]

59. And making fun of a situation where a woman is almost dead

does not sit well with me.

[DevonRex]

37. IMO, the toonist is well aware of the double meaning.

Anyone with a pulse is aware of the double meaning. Therefore, it was intentional racism and incites violence, as well.

[Ioo]

41. NO- It is a play on another current event of the monkey being shot

relax

[jberryhill]

43. Chimps are APEs not "monkeys"

It's a madhouse, I tell ya'.

[dbmk]

69. Yeah, but how do you think he went from seeing that

..to applying it to the stimulus bill?

What thought process triggered that?

[Life Long Dem]

45. They are doing a reversal of what we did to Bush but

comparing Obama to Bush with these cartoons seems more of a race than the truth. As if someone is sitting waiting for Obama to slip up.

And waiting, and waiting... getting anxious a little...I have a cartoon for you!

I just can't wait to give it to you!:rofl:

[Bobbie Jo]

49. Disgustingly Obvious. nt

[alwysdrunk]

60. I gotta say no racism or violence intended

I mean, just think about it. Do you really think a political cartoonist would just come out and call Obama a monkey knowing all the shit it would stir up? That would just be stupid. Times are hard, you think he would really risk his job like that? I mean I don't know anything about the guy who drew it but it just doesn't make sense. It would be too over the top and well, stupid.

[tekisui]

75. Of course a cartoonist would.

Look at all the attention he and the NY Post have gotten. It was racist and violent.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

67. Not even remotely racist.

It's using the recent chimpanzee attack story to launch an attack on the stimulus bill; it's got nothing whatsoever to do with race.

It's author may, for all I know to the contrary, be racist, but this cartoon is not evidence to that effect and it is not, itself, racist.

[dbmk]

70. But how on earth do you get from chimpanzee

..to "the one that wrote the stimulus bill"?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

92. Because of the well-known "monkey with typewriter" meme, of course.

And, more generally, connotations of stupidity and randomness.

And it would probably be fairer to say "ones" rather than "one", I think.

[Liberal_in_LA]

87. I disagree. The cartoonist used the chimp story to hide his racism. The chimp story was going to be

his cover for the racist cartoon he wanted to publish. Just my opinion. :hi:

[dbmk]

68. I can only see one thought process leading to this.

"Hey, they shot a monkey. I can make this about Obama."

The violence is from the story about the monkey. Thats not minded towards Obama or anyone or the essential part of the thought process.

I pick choice 1.

[H2O Man]

72. Racism plus

an attempt to incite.

[depakid]

77. Curious that the author didn't sign it

Usually things like that are a clue as to intentions/

[LiberalPersona]

78. When I first saw this

I thought it was referring to Bush instead of Obama. I mean Bush was always compared to a monkey and he kept pushing his own stimulus plans.

[debbierlus]

80. Violent, hateful, sick.

[Froward69]

81. Other

as if the "cartoonist" had placed a typewriter sprawled in the frame then the racist insinuation would not be there... I for one "read that" before I learned of the racist angle. i can see the bigotry now. it was just too subtle before

[Zodiak]

110. For me, it was punch-in-the-face obvious

But I am from the south and know the dog-whistles when they blow.

[Hutzpa]

82. wow!

38 people vote not racist, gotto admit, never thought I'll see the day
when folks at DU are voting against blatant racism.

Nice!!

[hay rick]

86. What's really amazing to me.

The Post obviously thinks the majority of their readership a) will not be offended by the cartoon and b) will find it humorous.

Pathetic.

[Danger Mouse]

88. I think it's racist but am open to other interpretations. At the VERY least it is tacky as fuck.

The woman almost died that was mauled by that chimp. It's not a funny story, yet the NY Post, of course, being the shit rag that it is, has to crack jokes. Typical Rupert toilet paper.

[Lucian]

89. Racist to the highest degree and insinuating violence towards our president.

Anyone who says otherwise have no business on this website.

[petronius]

90. Lame cartoon, but not racist or aimed at Obama

The point is that the stimulus is so bad it must have been crafted by an enraged ape; it's a feeble attempt to use a current event to make a statement.

Pretty tragic story to joke about however - maybe he'll work in the Buffalo crash next time...

[Raster]

91. Do you even have to ask?

[BuyingThyme]

94. Why don't they just pretend the cartoon is in reference to

Bush's being politically dead?

[tekisui]

95. Wow. Someone said they loved the cartoon.

shocking.

[bridgit]

101. other: scratchy, wannabe cartoonist void of line-work composition or import...

with so little real talent they couldn't make money in; or hold a bona fide job in the arts and so settled for whoring at a shit-box rag

[merh]

112. if that had been an option, I would have voted for it

I picked racist and violent.

you know what is scary? 2 voted that they like it.

[ItNerd4life]

107. Other. Bush was moron. Bush was depicted as chimpanzee.

Author thinks the stimulus bill was written by morons.

As Holder said: 'We're all a nation of cowards when it comes to discussing racism'.
Why: Because people won't talk about it if evertime somebody says or does something they are called racist.

[LynnTheDem]

109. Extremely.

[Numba6]

113. To even ask the question shows an ignorance about racism -- & those 70 odd outlier votes can only be

from klan members.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8213555&mesg_id=8214125

Even "progressives" showing racism is as American as apple pie

[tekisui]

115. That's what has me dumbfounded.

That it even had to be asked. I am amazed at the number on DU who are either racist or so horribly ignorant to racism that they don't see it.

[Seldona]

114. Racist cartoon, insinuating violence towards our president.

+1

[Luminous Animal]

117. NY Post: Look At Today's Political Cartoon! (Monkey posing as obama!)

That is the title of the thread discussing this cartoon on the white supremacist discussion board Stormfront.

Got it.

Hardcore racists immediately recognized that the monkey represented Obama AND they lauded the cartoonist for his bravery.

Maybe some of the apologists here could head on over to Stormfront and convince them that they are mistaken.

[Starry Messenger]

118. That's pretty much what I figured would happen.

It's not rocket science.

[Luminous Animal]

119. I wish I would have taken the time

to find it on the first day. It really would have helped in shutting down many of the apologists.

[Starry Messenger]

120. Well, probably better not to link to StormFront anyway.

But that leads me to ask--are there people here who have never heard of Stormfront? I can see not wanting to go looking for that kind of shit, but I've had it pop up on random internet searches for other stuff that would seem otherwise innocuous (the Irish famine).

[Luminous Animal]

121. I wouldn't link to Stormfront.

But I did go looking for their reaction and the thread was very easy to find.

[Hippo_Tron]

124. Equating a black person with a monkey is racist

It is entirely possible that it was not the cartoonist's intent to do this. I don't have a clue what his intent was because I can't read his mind. But it was taken as racist by some and rightfully so, because the stimulus bill is associated with Obama.

And for those saying we did the same thing to Bush, it's not the same thing to call a white person a monkey. George Allen would still be a Senator if he the person he had called Macaca had been white.

[Mass]

126. If this is not racist, this guy is a moron not to see it will be seen as racist.

May be he should stop drawing political cartoons.

[Politicalboi]

127. I think it was racist

He knew what this would cause.

[Adelox]

128. I think this is TREASON

I think this was racist and treasonous. ( I was not allowed to vote in your poll)