Why all the yelping from the right side, that those who "play by the rules" are left out??

[Peacetrain]

I do not understand them at all.

The people being addressed in the money to help with mortgages also "played by the rules."

As I listen to it..they are taking part of the money already allocated, and giving it to people who are living in their primary residence to try and keep them out of foreclosure.

This is not someone flipping to make a buck, or speculators. When you speculate, you live by the sword, you die by the sword.

These are homes of people who took the advice of the "professionals" and have been burned in a ponzi scheme that will now have their mortgages resetting to a point that they cannot pay it.


So what if they have a bigger house than me, it is not skin off my nose, but a family losing their home, is.. it hurts the neighborhoods, it hurts everyone else s home value also. (this is apparently the only thing that reaches those people).

THEY DID PLAY BY THE RULES..

[tekisui]

1. Really. And what are they suggesting?

That those who are well off right now be rewarded with tax payer money? How would that make anything better?

[Peacetrain]

2. They are all over the TV, saying that the mortgage bailout hurts

those who "played by the rules" What ever that is supposed to mean.

[moez]

3. I guess....

that is, if the rules say go out and buy more than you can afford to pay for....

[Peacetrain]

4. Home values of a couple of years ago were

built on shifting sand.. people were paying a fortune for NOTHING..because speculators had run it up.

[moez]

8. In my own neighborhood

I saw just as much from kids that thought they "deserved" the same kind of house that their parents had to work 20 years to afford. Then - they "deserved" to fill it up with large screen TV's and top of the line furniture. Finally, they'd top it off with a Lexus or two in the driveway...

Sorry... I can't muster a lot of sympathy for those types...

[Peacetrain]

10. What do I care if the neighbor has a big screen TV?

That is not the point. Many of these subprimes, (again playing by the rules) were shoveled at people by the "experts"..


That big screen tv, that is the same old chestnut (that turned out to be a big fat lie) that Reagan used , talking about people on welfare buying steaks, when he was standing in a grocery line. It never happened.

Oh there are speculators, and no one has sympathy for that lot..

But wanting the neighbor to fail because they have a big screen TV and I don't is cutting my own nose off to spite my face.


Let me edit to add..Many low income families get a big screen TV, from the rent to own places at 5 times the cost you or I would pay.

[lxlxlxl]

5. Your assuming that the logic is critical and rational...

The GOP was successful in convincing them and the majority of Americans that do not follow economics that the current downturn and credit crunch was a result of subprime mortgages going to poor people that borrowed more than they can afford. In their mind, this crisis is a result of poor people being given help. That is the reflection and source of their miserable politics, therefore (from their irrational position) they claim that people that 'played by the rules' are not getting help.

It wont make any sense to rationalize an irrational argument. You are giving them more credit than they deserve.

[Peacetrain]

6. I just wish one of these so called "newspeople" would

stand up and tell them, those caught did "play by the rules". That type of word twisting just drives me nuts, because you have those who are running around now thinking someone is getting something that they did not.

[lxlxlxl]

12. i know...i know...

everytime i hear someone say a variant of 'the crisis is a fault of poor people borrowing too much' i just want to scream.

the ACTUAL DATA about what caused the crisis points to real estate investments and house flipping as being a bigger chunk of subprime data, but it doesnt seem like our press have figured that out. It seems analogous to them pushing "the arabs did 9/11' because it was easy to get away with.

[Peacetrain]

17. I hear that.. the problem was the investing community using real estate

to be their latest dot.com.. and the joe blow got caught in the middle of those soaring house prices.

[shraby]

7. It's their divide and conquer strategy. Keeping Americans

mad at perceived "inequities" so they can hope to make people jealous of others. I've seen this song and dance many times in the Republican playbook. Before the Dems came to power, it tended to work well for them..not so much now, but they're hoping.

[Peacetrain]

9. Lets just hope peope have wised up.. you are right

about it being part of their playbook.

[treestar]

11. And what if they lost their jobs?

The right is so damn selfish. Me, me, me, and the claim they never did anything wrong. And that anybody who ever did anything wrong should suffer for it on principle.

They were lucky as far as I'm concerned, not pure and never wrong. It could easily be them. Judgmental pricks.

[Peacetrain]

15. I hear that.. This just get to the very core of me

We paid 30,000 for our home, 30 years ago.. Last year it would have been 150,000 now maybe 120,000.. How is some family just starting out supposed to come up with those kinds of out in the ether bucks, especially when real wages are still at 1974 levels.

[endarkenment]

13. divide and conquer

the Republic Party has staked out obstruction and nay saying as their strategy and are banking on prolonged economic disaster as their road back to power. Their nightmare scenario is that government intervention is seen as effective in limiting the scope of this disaster, and that the recession/depression is perceived to be under control and recovery underway as 2010 rolls around. In order to hedge their bet here they are exaggerating 'winners and losers' for every program hoping that they can sow disaffection even within their nightmare scenario. They are way way out on a limb. In 1934, after a similar effort to obstruct Roosevelt, with the depression still in full swing, the Republics were sent into congressional exile for decades by the voters.

[olkaz]

14. My wife and I played by the rules.

We bought a small, modest house that we could easily afford, while others were getting NINA loans "buying" houses that they knew that they couldn't afford.

Look, I don't want people to end up on the street, but there is a legitimate point to be made here. When people (or corporations for that matter) are boneheads, you shouldn't always save them just for the sake of saving them.

I don't have any problem helping folks who ended up with loans with really stupid terms (buying houses they should have been able to afford with a normal non-balloon/arm, etc), but bailing out people who were blatantly stupid/greedy does infuriate me.

I mean, really, if these folks end up with these houses, paying about the same as we pay (for our modest starter house), what message does it send to me and my wife?

[Peacetrain]

16. That is my point , so did the people caught in this mortage mess.. they played by the rules also

This is not about speculators, this is about people caught in a housing valuation that was run up as the latest thing on wall street to prime the pump for investors. Lets just be honest here.

See my post #15, the value of my house just went off the charts, and how is some family who is just starting out supposed to afford that?

[olkaz]

19. Like I said, I have no problem with helping people who went into this with good intentions...

I just want to make sure the right people get the help. That's all. The folks who did their due diligence and were able to make their payments before the world went haywire.

I realize it's a nuanced point, I don't think we disagree, I just want to make sure the right people are being helped, not those who were insanely reckless.

[Peacetrain]

22. I guess I might be a little more sympatheic to the plight watching my home grow

in value at such a rate. My husband and I, it was hard for us to scape it together to buy our house, and when we get ready to retire, I would love to see a young couple, starting out have it.... wonderful old house, close to schools, good neighbors.. but how could they afford it?

And see, it works that way with us, how can we then turn over a wonderful house for a young family, without having the money to buy the next OVERVALUED property.

It is a vicious cycle.

So families bought over their heads, because in most cases that was what was available. And the professionals advised them.

Again, give help to those people who were not speculating, and just caught in this vicious vicious run up of property values by the investing community looking for their next dot.com

[progressivebydesign]

27. there is no way to know who went in doing what.. the speculators should be excluded.

perhaps there is something in all this to keep the speculators and flippers from profiting from this bailout. The ones that bought tons of homes as investments then let them go to bankruptcy, those are a major problem in all this. There is no way to find out who "played by the rules", and it just sounds like a republican talking point.

[olkaz]

28. Really? Absolutely no way at all?

I won't feign competency in the extreme innerworkings of the crisis, but it would seem to me that somebody who does know could come up with an algorithim that can, with a reasonably high degree of accuracy, make the distinction. There have to be telltale signs of abuse.

Republican talking point or not, it can't hurt to try to help the right people.

[progressivebydesign]

26. Who are you to decide who played by the rules?? You are only listening to GOP talking points.

You don't know if the people in foreclosure lost their jobs. Considering we lost 3 MILLION jobs in one month in America in the past year, one month alone.. you have no idea who lost their homes because of it. Some of these "we played by the rules' arguments sound an awful lot like republicans crying about welfare. Isn't that the exact same reasoning? Isn't that what they say? "I work hard and these people do nothing for the money that I pay in taxes!!!"

Isn't that the same thing? Guess what? I played "by the rules" whatever that is supposed to mean -- what rules? They took out loans that they were approved for, so where is that not playing by the rules? My own mother-in-law got us into an interest only mortgage a few years ago that would go to adjustable this year, because she felt it was a good deal and we could always refinance. She worked for a reputable firm, and we took out the loan. Luckily, we sold the house and got into a fixed rate loan last year. But.. you know.. it took a year to sell that house, and my husband LOST his job in the meantime. Had it not sold we would have been one of the people being bailed out.. and smug people would be shaking their finger at us saying "YOU didn't play by the rules!!", so you should lose your house! We played by the rules. Things happen.

Would you rather have your town flooded with more and more abandoned homes so that your local economy falls even further into shit? Or perhaps if you need to sell your home for whatever reason, would you rather have a balance market? Or would you rather try to compete with empty homes at a fraction of their worth? How about your home value? Would you rather not go underwater in value becuase of the influx of foreclosed homes near you? How about tradespeople in your town? Would you like them to lose their livelihoods and homes as well because there people are losing their homes?

Guess what? It's called looking out for your neighbor and doing what's right to help others, even you are lucky enough not to need that help. I am in a fixed mortgage, and doing fine now. I have NO qualms about this housing plan helping others. I am self employed and I WANT people to keep their houses and use my services.

[Still Sensible]

18. They are just trying to get traction by dividing people

and the theory is based on their long held assertions that like to characterize anyone getting any assistance as being irresponsible, lazy freeloaders at the expense of taxpayers.

[Peacetrain]

20. I have a theory on news people and commentators.. that

they actually used to be part of the "mainstream" working joes.. and they still think of themselves as such (I am not talking about your local anchor here) .. and when they look at their own bottom line, they think the rest of the country is in line with them..

When they get out and see how people are trying to pull ends together, they are SHOCKED..

[footinmouth]

21. We played by the rules

So what? A lot of the reason we're in such good shape is simply luck. We've been fortunate to keep our jobs, fortunate to be insured, fortunate not to have huge legal bills or disastrous home repairs.

We bought a house we could afford & never ran up a lot of debt. We put money away for retirement. Yet with all our careful planning we're probably just one financial disaster away from insolvency. So many people did everything right, played by the rules, yet were forced into refinancing to pay off medical bills, home repairs etc. Everybody's not out there buying electronics.

I don't begrudge those who need some help. In many cases, it's just life that got out of control.

[Peacetrain]

23. Yep, that is how I see it too..

[Life Long Dem]

24. All you need to understand is

is that they're not from the same world as we are as far as reality goes.

All I'm allowed to say is that the majority base this on the state of the world as it really is rather than as you might want it to be.:yoiks:

Is it the homeowners fault for this economy? And isn't the economy the whole problem? What happened was the economy, and that means a number of things such as offshoring corporations, immigration - Visas, borders, or technology replacing workers took the buying power away. Or corporations looking for cheap labor.

[progressivebydesign]

25. People are too stupid to understand that this helps everyone....

If someone in our town saves their house, guess what? That helps all of us. It keeps more houses from flooding the market, keeps more people employed, keeps kids in school, and it will revitalize the towns. People, even here on DU, are complaining about why THEY don't get anything out of it, or the people who have already lost their homes. The point is when we lift up even ONE person, we are all lifted. The cycle has to stop somewhere, and we all benefit from saving even 3,000 homes.

And at this point I don't care if someone didn't play by the rules, and took out a mortgage they couldn't afford... it's all academic at this point. When authorities come across the scene of a terrible accident, they take care of the injuries first, get the cars out of the way, and then find out later why it happened. I think of this as first aid for our housing market, and frankly the practice that got so many people in trouble has been curtailed -- now we just have to get help to turn things around.

[Numba6]

29. They pull up anything to try to disrespect, deride, denounce any action Obama takes to pull him down