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chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:09 PM
Original message
Santelli, you and your GOP ilk are the real moral hazard.
How apparent did this yahoo make the key element of Republican philosophy. What's mine is mine and all you "losers" can pound sand. Never mind that most of these jerks' living standard is dependent on robust consumer spending specifically including monies spent by these self-same losers. Never mind that this crisis has, at its root, the mega greed that doles out undeserved multi-million dollar salaries and bonuses to Santelli's cohort but not his neighbor who had the temerity to add an extra bathroom after being importuned to do so by the hucksters in the banking business.
How awful must it be to never be able to relax for fear that somewhere, someone was thinking up some way to get some of their money. Well 8 years of that morally bankrupt, economically suicidal thinking is more than enough .Rick, take your big mouth, your shriveled heart and your limited brain and STFU.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. And there you have it. Rec'd with thanks. nt
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chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
7.  That means a lot coming from you. eom
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
33. And there you have it. Indeed.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. K and R
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. The First of the Seven Deadly Sins.
Wealth without work;
Pleasure without conscience,
Knowledge without character;
Commerce without morality;
Science without humanity;
Worship without sacrifice;
Politics without principle.

======================

Or is it two?
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chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
11.  There's a lot of wisdom in your post. eom
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
31. Credit Gandhi, not me.
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chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
32.  Yeah, he was prettty smart. But you get thanks for sharing it. n/t
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. Sorry, the idea that there should be a McMansion on every lot..........
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 11:31 PM by Double T
is just pure American insanity. The Realtor, the broker, the mortgage company, the buyer and the investment bank are all to blame for concocting these bad deals. NONE of these irresponsible, lack of do-diligence bastards should be bailed out!!
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
25. Yeah in a perfect world, bad behavior would have consequences.
Too bad we have to clean up everyone else's mess.
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HowHasItComeToThis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. THE ONLY ANSWER IS TO ATTACK REAGONOMICS ON EVERY FRONT
ESPECIALLY KUDLOW
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chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
13.  I remember Mathews ridiculing Dr. Dean's call for reregulation.
Too many of the media cognoscenti bought into this the market solves everything bs that Reagan popularized.Kudlow is a prime example of how these fools keep believing this junk, even when the great Greenspan has publicly acknowledged that he was wrong when thinking that the market was self correcting. I'm with you. This goes back to Reagan and the GOP effort to dismantle the very mechanisms that brought us out of the Great Depression. And here we are again.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
29. and do so BY NAME
Our President isn't going to do that, though; he's hailed the memory of Saint Ronny too many times and too many of his economic team were and are part of the problem.

Over and over he plays to the sinister bloodless cult of government haters; he repeatedly says how the recovery can't be done without the indispensable involvement of the genius of private enterprise. This is a time for government intervention--and I say this as a pretty solid capitalist--in ways that immediately create as many jobs as possible. The term "shovel-ready" is valuable, but its endless evocation makes me think of someone who's shoveling shit. The perfect set of projects would be the ones with the fewest materials costs and heavy on wages. Yes, industries need to be goosed by goods being ordered, but it seems that getting individuals making money, keeping afloat and spending is more important.

Sure, much of the repeated honorifics about private enterprise are too ease fears of governmental intervention and creeping socialism, but after awhile, it can't ALL be just to sooth the fears of the market ideologues, after awhile it betrays a corporatist bent that leaves a nasty taste in the mouth and a sinking feeling in the stomach.

This is an emergency. As such, it's time to put aside certain pettinesses, but it's DEFINITELY time to name the enemy, and the enemy is reckless deregulation. That's PRECISELY why we're here.
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specimenfred1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. I watched a little of the MSNBC whores trying to sell him today
TV is like a bad sitcom now, they create tension in every episode and try to sell it. The next day/episode is based on the previous episodes numbers, if it did well the TV whores play it up, if it bombs the TV whores just pretend it never happened. It's pure fascist fiction at this point, an ongoing disgrace to journalism.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Ambinder hit it-the Outrage Industrial Complex (OIC)...
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. I wonder how these nutjobs like it...
...that one of their own, Hank Paulson, was the biggest wind against "moral hazard" in modern times.
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chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
45.  The Frontline piece on PBS captured his ambivalence of
doing what needed to be done and his incompetence in doing it. One thing that should be clear from this crisis is that the masters of the universe who populate Wall Street were absolutely as greedy as we thought they were. The surprise is that so many of them are as dumb as a sack of hammers.
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relayerbob Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
9. He's well beyond a moral hazard
He and the other harbingers of doom are creating an atmosphere of perpetual fear, that is driving the markets down.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
12. "Let them eat cake"
That's what Santelli's screed sounded like to me, and that's what I told cnbc when I emailed them yesterday.

It really feels like the war against working/regular people has escalated.
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napsi Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
14. Well, perhaps I am ignorant but
the last time I looked there are plenty of people from
teachers, fireman, small business employees, factory workers
etc... that have their money tied up in 401k's, SEP'S
etc...... and other retirement funds which are invested in
"Wall Street". Perhaps we should not be so gleeful
at the demise of the stock market? The rich are not the only
people "invested" in the market.

Personally, I don"t give a shit anymore. The whole govt
is out of control.
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chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #14
15.  Who is gleeful about this?
I'm 62 years old. Any thought that I could retire this year is out the window. I'm not one bit gleeful that the greed and stupidity on Wall Street has made that impossible. But I refuse to listen silently to sanctimonious asses use their platform on CNBC to call all those who are in financial trouble "losers" while voting for the policies that have caused the crisis.
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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
16. Santelli is somewhat right.
The Obama plan sucks as it stand so far and is inherently unfair. I do not oppose helping out distressed home owners at all but the plan as it stands is to selective and leaves the people that have been following the rules out in the cold. When they deserve a break just as much as the others do. Heck even more so because they DID follow the rules.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Why don't you explain how.....because Santelli the Republican Wall Street Whore is wrong
about what this plan does, and I'm pretty sure IF you respond, you will be wrong too!

Now, I'm waiting for your response.
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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Hey I'm still waiting for your response to me the other day as well.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Link...
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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. see
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. I see....and the link confirms that
like I said, you don't understand what the plan does.
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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. then why don't you explain it with facts.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Because I didn't attack the plan and lacked facts while so doing...
you did.
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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. Simply offering to be a contrarian isn't much of an argument.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. It's not an argument, it's simply a contradiction.
No, it's not.

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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Funny, I was thinking the same thing.
When I posted my reply, I sensed I was about to be led into some inane circular arguement.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. Are you sure you are not eligible?
I think you may be if they are with Freddie or Fannie.

"People who got plain-vanilla conforming mortgages and who have never fallen seriously behind on the monthly payments might qualify to refinance at lower interest rates -- even if they owe as much as the house is worth."

"It provides a path to refinancing for people whose loans were securitized by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac. Millions of homeowners have mortgages that were securitized, but not by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac. They might find it difficult to refinance, whereas their neighbors who got similar loans securitized by Fannie or Freddie might have an easier time qualifying for refinancing. Most borrowers won't know if they have a Fannie or Freddie loan until they ask the servicer."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/money/400948_real21.html

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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I'm with citimortgage.
So I doubt that I'm included in that category (how would I find out?). Citi actually bought my mortgage from the original lender because I guess the original lender sold too many bad mortgages.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. I guess you call your mortgage company?
My guess is if you get a 30 year fixed and you put down 20% your odds are good.

But it also sounds like they are determining who gets helped by how strapped they are too.

There should be a lot more details coming out, but since I think I read that 50% of mortgages are with Freddie or Fannie, that gives you a not bad chance.

Don't knock Obama yet...he may be able to help you out.

Me on the other hand...I don't get bupkis.
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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-09 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. Why not?
Is it because you don't have a mortgage or you don't qualify. Which I would then still find inherently unfair, unless your super rich of course. In which I would say good for you, now go take care of yourself. ;)
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
35. *I* followed the rules, but I don't begrudge others getting help.
I don't want my neighbors out in the cold, even if they did fuck up.

Maybe as a gay man with no kids, I'm used to paying for things I don't directly benefit from.
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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. I don't begrudge them either.
Edited on Sat Feb-21-09 01:30 PM by AyanRand Is Dead
I do find it disappointing though that this plan like so many other focuses so little on the average guy and will still eventually provide the vast majority of American wealth to Wall Street. You know the people that are already rich. The same people that hate the poor and squeeze the middle class.

It's very short-sighted IMO to only help those that can barely help themselves, because in the end if those people are that deep underwater they'll end up just breaking even after paying their mortgage and their bills so they'll actually have very little discretionary cash left over to kick back into the economy. But if families that are more stable are allowed to participate, they will have a much more significant portion of income left at the end of the day to put back into the economy.

That would provide for a benefit for those whom were responsible and also allow for a much more effective stimulus to be provided to a very broad spectrum of the economy, because people all have different needs and spending habits. Yet still provide large amounts of help to the primary ailing industry in the form of everybody being able to pay their mortgages on time, while minimizing the obscene amount of profits in which the Wall street pirates saw during the boom era.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
40. What rules? That they are lucky enough to still have their jobs?
What is this obsession with rules and who should be rewarded? supposing some of those people in bad shape now did "follow the rules." what is the rule, that you pay your mortgage? They were given these mortgages, they broke no "rule." What if they got sick, or were in an accident? That's their fault for breaking some "rule?"

This is to save the country from going into the crapper, not to judge inidividual people and dispense rewards and punishments. Why are some people so hung up on that? If the whole country goes down, so do all those who obeyed every single rule and never made any mistakes and never had any bad luck.



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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
17. 75 billion for homeowners, 2 trillion for banks?
Does that sound like a fair or equitable deal?

The Obama plan doesn't go far or broad enough to help the citizens of the United States.

If you want to talk about trickle up economics if you open up better and more fair refinancing for more Americans your going to end up with a much better stimulus for the economy than any infrastructure project could ever do.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Please explain your suggestion......
and 2 trillion to banks is not part of the Obama plan!
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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. I simply think that government should be representative of the will of the people.
And NOT the will of financial institutions. I understand that the billions of dollars that have gone to the banking institutions is not all President Obamas fault. BUT he did support the plan while he was campaigning for President and he did seek the release of the funds to be provided for the banks prior to entering office, and finally he is seeking to enact a TARP II with a name rebranding. Sorry but no amount of marketing is going to sell that bad idea.

So far all I see is yet another redistribution of wealth going from the middle class to the Wall Street class and the welfare class. Now I'm not really taking issue with providing assistance to the welfare class. But considering how much weight is being placed on the backs of the middle class as it is right now, by disproportoinately helping the wall Street pirates. I think that something is going to break real soon!

This plan, along with what's been tossed out for the TARP II. Once again leaves middle America out in the cold. WE COULD USE A BAILOUT AS WELL!!! WE WORK HARD AND WE'RE BLOODY WELL SICK OF SEEING OUR BLOOD,SWEAT, AND TREASURE GO EVERYWHERE ELSE, BUT OUR OWN TABLES. Sorry... you see breaking point.

Giving money to speculators and greedy dopes that oversized their homes and drove up prices chasing after a 1% no interest loan is wrong. But helping families that have suffered job loss stay in their homes, FANTASTIC! Helping families that didn't buy a supersized house but were misled into a bad loan, FINE!

But hey you know what?! Helping out people that paid their mortgages and went with a little less here and there so that they could stay in their homes. Now that would be a novel idea!
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Methinks you are on the wrong website. Santelli is a right-wing prick and 100% wrong.
The people that are having their houses foreclosed on are "losers"? Really? What are we, 12 years-old? This bill helps those that need help, and NOT those that over-extended or are speculators...And exactly how is one supposed to pay one's mortgage when one;s job has been eliminated? Does that make them "losers" too?

Fuck that bullshit.

Santelli made his money trading derivatives, in other words, profitting from someone else's sweat...fuck him and his right-wing class-war invective...Funny how he didn't say a fucking word when the "losers" on Wall Street needed a free hand-out...

You know the most obvious dead give-away that someone is a republican? Their total hypocrisy...and Santelli REEKS of it...
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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Me thinks that you didn't even read my reply before responding...
Edited on Sat Feb-21-09 03:39 AM by AyanRand Is Dead
Where did I say losers?! huh? Was that a canned response? I'm not championing Santelli as a human being, and I am aware of the embarrassing irony of a former derivatives trader lecturing other about the moral hazards of a redistribution of wealth. But I do see where he has a fair point in how this plan is selective in deciding who are the winners (in this deal)and who are the losers (in this deal). You see that wasn't derogatory, it was an expression!

Anyways you've brought me totally off topic my previous suggestion didn't have anything to do with Santelli for goodness sakes. It was about equality and providing programs that offered more equality to a broader swath of the public. Santelli would never propose anything like that.

Do you understand what my point and opposition to the plan is now? It's about it's lack of inclusiveness for the broader spectrum of the populous!

Do you get that?
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chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #28
34.  What part of the public should be included in the plan that
isn't included now?
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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Almost everybody
Every family and individual not making over a 250,000 (This is president Obama's classification of the middle class not mine) and owns a single primary residence should be allowed the opportunity to reduce their mortgage with a lower fixed rate. The program could even apply a narrow but excellent credit range scale to accommodate and reward individuals slightly that have been responsible in diligently paying their mortgages.

Keep the first time home buyer credit, but get rid of subsidized mortgage payment plan except in the cases were families faced involuntary unemployment, but even then the subsidization should not be for more than 1 year.

Take the funding from what would have been yet another bank bailout and offer it to the people. After all if we supposedly live in a consumer based economy. Getting the money back into the hands of the consumer and allowing them the opportunity to save their homes and extra income from reduced mortgages will offer a massive stimulus to many sectors and levels of the economy and not just the "housing sector" or the "auto industry". But instead real people will have extra real money to spend every month.

Like I said 75 billion for the people and trillions of dollars for the banks is nothing more than a repeat of trickle down economics. I would've thought that most people here would've understood that?! :shrug:
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
41. To the people who work at the bank it does
there are many lowly workers at these institutions. Many work for GM. That's why we bail them out from time to time.

Who cares what is "fair" to each individual when we are trying to save the whole system? We don't have time to look into each individual's behavior with a fine tooth comb to decide whether they broke any laws or just had some bad luck or got caught up into this society and just happen to be the first ones to suffer from its mistakes.

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
39. It only matters to them what happens to them
Yet they are so short sighted that they think there can be millions of homeless starving people surrounding them and it will still be OK for them.

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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
42. Where Was Rick Santelli When All of These Mortgages Were Written?
I'll tell you. He was singing the praises of the free market. That's where. No other multi-trillion dollar market that sells directly to the consumer is unregulated like the mortgage industry was. No other.

The time to scream was back in 2004-05, not now.

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chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-09 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
50.  The big guy next to Santelli that parrots his bilge is called
Edited on Sun Feb-22-09 08:00 PM by chieftain
"Wolfman".Not a very important factoid in the greater scheme of things, I admit. But it struck me as yet one more example of the macho juvenility that is a key element in the RW make up. So now in addition to telling Santelli and Wolfman to STFU, I will add GTFU.
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