Why I am 42 and still rent instead of owning my own home:

[ddeclue]

Even though my salary did go up dramatically in the 1990's by the time it was close to enough to start buying a home, the home prices quickly accelerated out of sight and I never did buy a home because I couldn't afford to do so even as a single guy with no kids on an engineer's salary.

Home prices here in FL accelerated even faster than the rest of the country and were going up 15 to 20% a year while my salary has gone done 25% off the dot.com bubble high and gotten stuck at the same level for the last 6 years. Meanwhile everything (housing, insurance, gas, food) has gotten more expensive.

During the late 90's and through the Bush administration speculators have combined with greedy bankers and greedy but foolish investors to make risky loans and drive up the prices for all others in the market while passing off the risk to third parties like so much processed meat product sausage disguising the real content of those investments.

The real solution to the housing bubble is:

1) Total banking and investment transparency and accountability - the GOVERNMENT and NOT private accounting firms should be auditing the banks and Wall Street. When private accountants get involved, they eventually get co-opted by those they are supposed to be auditing.

2) A return to community based banking and to break down all these mega giga nation wide banks like BofA, Wachovia/Wells Fargo, etc. into local banks and require them to keep all loans they make and to keep that risk on their books instead of passing it off on unsuspecting investors through accounting games and less than full disclosure.

Being able to pass off bad debt to others as an investment meant there was no risk to the greed heads making these bad loans and they got rich while the rest of us got screwed.

3) Housing NEEDS to come back down to affordable levels, people deserve to live in decent houses, not overpriced, over valued, under sized, under featured ones. People deserve a yard and some space from their neighbors, not being packed in like sardines into these pitiful "row house" like developments that have been built by greedy developers here in Florida that pack too many houses onto too little land and chop down all the trees. These houses all look alike and make any sense of "neighborhood" impossible.

4) Developers should be banned from developing any more than 10% of the homes on a piece of land over 10 acres. More importantly they should be banned from vertically integrating the housing industry - builders should not also be in the business of buying and selling the land or arranging the finances- houses should be built individually by property owners. When builders vertically integrate to do finance and land buying and selling, that's when we get the bad loans, the overpriced homes and the crappy cookie cutter developments that destroy the environment and destroy our quality of life.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

1. Your decision has certainly been validated.

[Phx_Dem]

44. Not necessarily. It depends where you live.

I certainly wouldn't have bought a house in California where you get 1,000 square feet for $1 million. But we bought our home in '96 with a 5.25 percent fixed interest rate, and we have very affordable monthly payments. We have a ton of equity -- even with the house market collapse -- that we would not have if we rented.

It's not about not buying, it's about buying smart and not letting some jerk lender scam you into a ARM loan that you wouldn't be able to afford in a few months.

[pnwmom]

49. I think you're right. If you can get a conventional mortgage and hold

the house for a number of years, you're probably going to be in a very good position in the long run. It's kind of an enforced savings plan, at the very least.

[ddeclue]

68. But the problem is complicated in that it is hard to find any kind of decent job

where housing is cheap.

It usually means living in the sticks in the Deep South or in the Midwest (where they don't really even have "sticks" to live in) where good jobs are scarce.

The big reason people have moved to California and Florida and boom cities like Atlanta, Dallas, and Phoenix in the 1990's was jobs. There were lots of good jobs to still be had in these places.

Doug D.

[pnwmom]

94. True. The people I know now that are in a forced move situation

are lucky in that sense -- they are transferring from one low-cost area to another. But the new location, for whatever reason, has a lot more jobs in the field of the higher-income spouse. So if something happens to her job after the transfer, she'll have more options than if they remained in their original location.

[MercutioATC]

2. Wait 6-12 months. You'll never have a better opportunity to buy.

On a 15-year note, you'd have it paid off before you retire...and you'll be getting the tax breaks in the meanwhile.

[marions ghost]

29. I'm wondering if that applies to building...

I'd like to try to get something built on a lot that I already am paying on.

Before this in my area it was hard to find a builder because there was so much demand, and it was really hard to find an honest builder. I tried and all I heard were horror stories.

I'm trying to figure out if this would be a good time or would the same (or worse) kind of excess profits be reaped by contractors now feeling pinched?

[MercutioATC]

31. You'd do better buying existing housing stock.

Acting as your own general contractor, though, you could pick up labor at a significant discount (out-of-work laborers).

[marions ghost]

37. yes but

the lot couldn't be liquidated very easily. And I've been hoping to live there for years now, paying bit by bit.

I still think I could build more cheaply than buying as the home values are staying fairly stable here and seem pretty high to me. I've done extensive remodeling before (salvage really) and feel confident interacting with various subcontractors, but to actually build I think I'd have to have a general contractor or site manager. I know exactly what I want and have someone to draw plans, so that part's not hard. Passive solar, solar H20, high efficiency appliances, good insulation, not a big house but maybe 3 bedrooms. Other than that, bare bones modern, no special finishes, standard construction. Would need well and septic.

I guess what I need to do is start doing all the extensive research again since the downturn has changed everything. My previous experiences with builders (from quotes to actual projects) have been discouraging. Never found one that didn't want to gouge. I'm wondering if it's a better time now or would it be the same or worse than before the crash. I know contractors should get laborers more cheaply but I'm sure they'll just skim that off for themselves. There is little to no regulation of building in my area. It's buyer beware.

Anyway...thank you for your advice. I'm appreciative of any morsels on this subject at this point. My dream is slipping away and I need to get up the confidence to act. It's hard to know what to do in the current climate.

[pnwmom]

50. We're in a similar position.

We wanted to start planning for our last house, and we have the lot. We want a "green" house that we can grow old in, and that can manage the transition from a younger family to a family with (hopefully) lots of visits from adult children and grandchildren. But is now a good time to start, or should we wait? Unfortunately, our financial crystal ball has been really murky lately!

[marions ghost]

61. right

exactly. It might not be the best time, but then if you wait, costs will just go up and the window might be missed. I sure wish we had done this a couple of years ago. It's trickier now financially. And it's hard enough dealing with builders who are fat and happy in an unregulated climate, but how is it when they're really hungry? The gouging and skimming might even be worse.

Recently we had to get a hanging cabinet replaced in the kitchen where we are now as it fell apart and bit the dust (it's a 70's house). The guy we finally got to do it had to fabricate it from laminate boards to fit the space. He used obviously recycled materials --some of the boards were grooved for some other job and he didn't even fill them. They're 3-4 inches long, visible & structurally on the supporting lower horizontal part of the box, about 12 of them all together. We will have to fill them ourselves and try to sand and paint. We didn't refuse the box outright because the guy took months to get back to us (he does full kitchen installations so of course that took precedence). And then we got the bill--no discount there. You'd have thought it was the most finely crafted deluxe wood. We'll be shorting him to cover the insult of sub materials, but we didn't want a crappy job (we knew him to do reasonably good work). This is not encouraging. Needless to say when we do go to build, this guy will not be installing the cabinets. (Of course they don't care about repeat business so it doesn't matter). An obvious rip-off on a small job really makes you nervous about the bigger ones though. This is just one example of the many we have had.

Yes, you're in the same situation. It's not a common situation as most people are buying/selling existing housing, but the question remains--is building a dicey proposition right now? I'm sure this depends somewhat on the area but I guess I'm asking whether there are any good builders still left standing who are willing to do a project the old-fashioned (honest) way or will they be out for even more profit? We've had every scam in the book run on us by contractors and subcontractors in remodel situations. Forget all the wrangling we just want to get er done. At this point our dream of a moderately sized "green" house (right it's for the long term, not thinking of moving again) seems elusive.

This building/remodeling stuff doesn't operate the same way as other services, so the logic of "you'll have more and better choices & prices if the market is depressed" doesn't seem to hold IMO.

Just commenting...but it helps to know others are thinking the same way. :)

[pnwmom]

91. I'd love to know if you ever get going on this.

Feel free to p.m. me if you ever want to vent.

[marions ghost]

97. thanks pnwmom

it takes a support group to build or remodel in this country (esp if you don't have a friend or family member qualified to do oversight for you)...I think there is a real need for homeowners doing remodeling or building to band together--I guess I am actually thinking of some kind of advocacy organization for the homeowner. It has been nothing but negative for us for fifteen years. When stuff happens, there's nobody to turn to. We had a huge roof repair and guttering job done --everything, even downspouts replaced. The guys installed all the gutters at the wrong angle, admitted this was wrong, but the owner of the business refused to fix it. So now we live with rain pouring backwards towards the house everywhere. You can't take them to court--a) is too expensive and b) they always win. An honest lawyer will tell you NOT to take them to court. There is nowhere to go.

I will remember your offer. This needs to be the year we move on this. If I can help you at all let me know. :hug:

[cascadiance]

95. "Missing the window" implies we'll be getting into "housing bubble" mode later again too...

Which I HOPE that Obama and the Democrats find ways of legislating new regulations on the mortage and building industries so that we don't repeat another bubble monster again. People shouldn't have to "rush in to cash in" on a "window" for housing. It should just be more like investing in CDs (perhaps a little more riskier than that), but an investment that's regulated enough, so that in most situations one can count on a steady return, and the average salary in a given area can get a reasonable house, so that we don't have to worry about the housing market being overpriced again. If we don't we'll repeat this same frickin' mess all over again!

I think if the housing market has some form of forced stability through regulation, and renews home buyers' confidences that they aren't going to get screwed again, that greater feeling of security would bring back a lot of buyers that might otherwise stay away, and have it so that the market will have a lot of buyers again. If all of those buyers are more sticky about not overpaying for a given house, then hopefully we can have a healthy market again, and not one that will spiral out of control.

[marions ghost]

98. Right

yes --they are going to have to give home buyers or builders REASONS to have confidence. Real meat, real teeth in regulation.

I agree, "people shouldn't have to feel like they have to "rush in or cash in' on a window for housing".... ABSOLUTELY.

But they've got us all like pigs at the end of the trough now....all we can do is squeal and trample each other.

The only positive in all this is that the bulk of the population sees the damage that has been done now. They are learning the hard way.

[cascadiance]

92. That's why I moved from San Diego to Portland.... I figure the same thing...

As a 50 year old renter (I'm further along than you) in San Diego, I figured that if I wanted to buy in the current market down there, I'd be forced to retire there not to risk losing a very big part of my investment and my life savings in a house. And I wasn't prepared to settle down there with that cost of living, and the increasing threat of fires (along with high insurance rates), etc.

I figure in about a year from now, up here where cost of living is cheaper, that hopefully the housing prices will have leveled off, I'll have saved more money to get a better loan, the government will have hopefully fixed a lot of the infrastructure as you note here by then, etc. and I won't have to worry about getting "trapped" into a bad investment then.

And hopefully we'll also have our job security a little more solid then too by that time as well. If all of those click, then perhaps the prices will level off again, people will start buying again, but we'll have safeguards against a mad rush balloon effect again, so that we can just count on a steady (albeit small) growth in value of the equity we start gaining from a house then. That way, you aren't as limited as to how much you get "locked in" to your house and your mortgage then.

I don't look at buying a house as a "get rich quick" investment vehicle, and nor should anyone else in the future. That's what has contributed to us getting in the trouble we are in now, so we need that notion to have ended by a year from now. If you want to start doing more high risk gambling, you should either go to the Casino, or perhaps even some areas of the stock market, but not expect Uncle Sam to bail you out, if you throw money away stupidly there.

[sunnybrook]

3. Home buyers also have a responsibility

McMansions destroy the environment.

I also rent for some of the same reasons you mentioned.

[MADem]

4. Maybe, in this market, it's time for you to buy.

Hey, I was forty when I bought my first house (I had a family manse, but that's not the same). Thinking of my friends and family, most of them were pushing, if not past, forty when they bought their houses. The exceptions are couples who bought shortly after starting families.

[ddeclue]

7. Except that I'm single and currently I'm unemployed

and have been going through unemployment spells over the last year or so that have obliterated my financial situation and prospects don't look good for the future.

Maybe if I can get a good job, it would make sense but I still think housing prices are going to fall at least another 30% before they start back up.

Doug D.

[MADem]

11. Poor you! Of course, in the old days, they'd give you a loan ANYWAY!

I didn't mean "this minute," but now's the time to start looking if you're interested in home ownership.

Having a job is key, certainly.

[ddeclue]

14. Poor me? I hope that was sincere...it sounded a little mean...

I suppose they would have made me a no income verification loan but that would have been an insane thing for me to be dumb enough to do and I would have had to come up with some kind of a meaningful down payment which I've never been able to scrape together - everytime things start looking up then something happens to screw me over. 1993-1994, 2001-2002 and now 2008-2009 have been bad spells.

[MADem]

54. It was totally sincere.

Wow, I guess we need more of those "emoticons" here, or something.

I've got three relatives out of work, and I'm doing my part to help "carry" them. It sucks for them, and it's tough for me and the rest of our clan, but you can't turn your back, now, can you?

Hope things look up for you soon.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. I agree that housing needs to come down to affordable levels...

As someone earning a more than adequate salary yet still unable to afford a home in anywhere near a safe neighborhood, it's absolutely absurd. I could've gotten a loan I could barely afford before, like everyone that's in this mess right now, but I played it safe and now values are way too high around here. And since rent here is also outstandingly high (I pay $1600/month for a 1BR in a mid-level suburb), it's near impossible to achieve a full 20-30% downpayment that they're now asking for (which would be in the neighborhood of $80-120k).

Still, the "people deserve a yard" and anti-row house development comments are misplaced. With our population rising, not everyone is going to get a single-family house with a yard - it's just not feasible.

[ddeclue]

9. I disagree about the row house stuff...

It's not a lack of land that is a problem in most places (except maybe south florida), it's greedy developers who are creating an artificial scarcity of land (much like diamonds are an artificially scarce commodity) through their vertical integration of the industry.

[Jennicut]

6. I bought my first home at 26. In fact I still live in it 8 years later.

We brought a small "starter" cape at only $137,000. I am so glad we did. Its a fixed 30 year mortgage too. We are staying in this house a long, long time.

[ddeclue]

8. You must live in some small town in the midwest or something...

Housing prices haven't been that low in Florida for a long time.

[asphalt.jungle]

21. I'm not sure, but I think the "cut" part is for Connecticut

which is still an amazing price for New England (and NYC's neighbor). I wonder if she lives out of the way (a Storrs like place).

[Jennicut]

58. Connecticut. A small town called Terryville. Northwest CT prices are cheaper then the rest of CT.

The prices are always less here in Litchfield County because frankly there is not much up here. Its all small towns except for maybe a larger town called Torrington until the Mass border. Its the least populated county in CT.



I think the housing prices have gone up since 2000 but its still a good deal here compared to the rest of the state.

[ddeclue]

74. That explains it!

I've only ever been through the I-95 corridor part of CT where everything seems very expensive.

[Jennicut]

59. LOL. I have never been to the midwest but would love to go. FL prices are terrible!

Considering I live in CT and its high here for everything I was surprised when relatives told he how bad it was in FL.

[ddeclue]

73. I always thought that CT was just as expensive if not more than FL.

People always joke about CT being where Wall St. bond traders live....

My brother lives in Hackensack NJ and works in the city and we've been over to CT a few times and it always seems very expensive looking from what I can see.

[Jennicut]

86. That is southern CT. CT is small but there are very different parts of the state.

Southern CT is essentially like an extension of New York City, its like New York's suburbs and lots of commuters from NYC live in Stanford, Norwalk, Greenwich, Westport. Most people I know do not want to live anywhere near there. Traffic is heavily congested and its expensive to live there. But the further you get up to Mass the more it changes and becomes less populated and there are even still some old farming towns left in CT. The Northwest and Northeast are not heavily populated by any means. Northern CT identifies more with Mass, hence the split loyalties between those sports fans in CT who love the Patriots and Red Sox and then those who love the Giants and Yankees.

[joeglow3]

82. I live in Nebraska and love it.

Sure, the politics blow, but we have a great house that I bought when I was 23. The employment here is nice and prices are reasonable. We did not have the huge run-ups in real estate prices and, therefore, have not seen that big of drops.

[PatGund]

10. Yep!

Turn 43 next week, made more than my father ever did, and there is not a snowball's chance in hell I'll ever be able to buy a house.

The middle class doesn't have the earning power it once had.

[elocs]

12. Well, I'm 56 and I've never owned a house and have never been interested in owning a house.

I am perfectly happy and content with what I have.

[pnwmom]

20. Do you have children? It's harder to be content when you have

dependents with their own needs -- like being able to attend the same school district for a number of years, form stable friendships, etc.

[Saphire]

96. Home is where the heart is. I've raised three and have never owned

my own home. We've lived in the same place for years for that reason, but when the move does come, the kids really look forward to the change and challenges.

Living in a military town doest hurt, either. Lots, and I mean lots of families on the move here, so it's nothing new or surprising when it happens. Just part of life.

[stopbush]

13. I've owned two homes (I currently rent) and I wonder if owning a home makes sense for most people.

I say that because America's workforce is being forced into becoming more mobile. As jobs evaporate, people are forced to relocate. Traditionally, buying a home has gone hand in hand with staying in a place long term. That means having a job in that place that also has long term potential.

The housing bubble that has just burst was a chimera that violated that principle, turning what has traditionally been a long term investment into a short term profit generator.

Looking toward the future - where Americans will continue to relocate 5 - 10 times over the course of their working life - one wonders where a 30-year mortgage on a single-family home fits in. Unless the economy evolves to the point where the majority of jobs are sit-at-home-on-your-computer gigs that anyone can do from anywhere (making it easy to switch jobs while not switching the location in which you're sitting), how is one to square the expense of buying a home with the fact that one may be forced to move out of said home before a down payment has been recouped through one's house value increasing, let alone making the significant profit that comes through inflation/increased value over the course of a 30-year mortgage?

[ddeclue]

16. We really DO need to evolve into a telecommuting society.

It's the only thing that makes any sense anymore in terms of social stability or any kind of quality of life.

I have an engineering degree from a good school and good skills but my career has turned me into a high tech migrant fruit picker. I have moved at least as often as my father did in his Army career if not more as an engineer (at least 12 times since 1992) and how am I ever going to be able to meet someone, marry and have my 1.9 kids etc. like I'm supposed to be able to do?

I am now looking at having to relocate out of Florida to find another job - I am TIRED of starting my life over again and again and having to make new friends all the time.

Doug D.

[pnwmom]

23. Sorry to hear about your troubles, dedeclue.

I think the unemployment numbers for engineers must be undercounting a lot of people like you.

[ddeclue]

25. They are undercounting everybody...

unemployment only counts people COLLECTING unemployment - once your benefits expire or if you don't collect them for some reason they don't count you as "unemployed" even if you don't have a job.

[sunnybrook]

30. I fall into that category

The nonprofit I worked for suddenly lost funding for my position, which was unfortunately funded by the owner of a mortgage company! I have not attempted to collect unemployment because I worked part time. Luckily I am a high achieving non-traditional honor student and I have extra scholarship money to live on for awhile. But it is a scary feeling, I can tell you, knowing that I have got to find a job, have no income and within a month or two won't even be able to make rent. I am looking for work every day and the situation is bleak. I know we are all a little freaked about the economy, but it is so hard to hear the constant drumming about the economy and being without a job. Scary indeed. A day at a time.....

[pnwmom]

48. Good luck, sunnybrook! n/t

[sunnybrook]

52. Thanks!

:hi: I know adversity builds character, just hope we don't all have too much "character building" in store. I've heard my Mom's stories about the Great Depression. Lets hope this is a blip that our great new Prez, with our support, can turn around!

[pnwmom]

18. If you have children, you could compound the moving problems for them

if you don't own a home. Not only would you have to move if you had a major job transfer, but you'd have to move -- and possibly, at short notice -- at the will of whoever you rent from. And moving out of a rental often means having to change schools, which is the hardest thing for children.

And how does constant relocation work when there are two partners needing jobs? I think the U.S., as a matter of policy, should be doing whatever it can to encourage job and neighborhood stability, not passively accept more and more instability.

[ddeclue]

22. Another EXCELLENT point..

It's hard enough to meet the right girl but it's even harder these days because inevitably she's got her own career and her own financial problems and there's no way for just one person in a couple or a family to move without disrupting the other one's career.

I basically just went through this where I tried to take a new job in South Florida for a few months last fall and caused me and my gf to basically break up because she didn't want to move there.

[pnwmom]

26. A married couple I'm close to are going through this now,

because the only way for her to keep her job was to accept a move out of state. So now he, who makes half of what she does, is forced into the position of "trailing spouse" -- trying to start over without a ready job in a new place. The only thing that makes them feeling better is that both their kids are out of high school now -- so that they don't have to deal with their kids' misery, too.

Which reminds me of another whole set of complications. The woman with the job transfer has an ex-husband, too. So how could she have taken the job if it meant separating her kids from him?


P.S. Sorry about the gf. Sounds like you've been through a LOT.

[stopbush]

35. Well, I do have kids, and it isn't easy to keep moving.

We have relocated 5 times since 1998, and three of those moves were long distances (2,500 miles, 400 miles, 300 miles). It's really hard on the kids, but they do eventually adapt. Having their own cell phones and an unlimited long-distance plan helps in the transition!

Hopefully, the move we made a year ago will be the last one for a long time. I'm now living in an area where the job market better matches my career. If this gig evaporates, there's the potential of finding a new gig within 30 miles. That was a tough proposition in my last two positions where I lived out in Buttfuck and the job I had (with an arts institution) was pretty unique for the area.

[pnwmom]

46. The couple I know who are moving now are in a situation similar to yours.

They don't want to move, but -- on the other hand -- at least they will be in a place with more job options, in case this transfer doesn't work out for some reason. The town they've been living in for the last 10+ years is going nowhere fast.

They are so grateful that their kids are done with school, so they don't have to rip them away from their friends. On the other hand, they were figuring that their young adults would move farther away from them -- not the other way around.

[marions ghost]

62. all those moves with kids....

:grouphug: I could not have done it. You are tough. Good luck.

[ddeclue]

72. As a military brat I went through this on a regular basis in the 1970's

but when it came time for High School my dad retired from the Army so we could go all four years to the same school.

It's got upsides and downsides but I actually think moving is tougher on OLDER not younger kids because when you are younger you have fewer outside friends and it is mostly just you and your family.

[pnwmom]

15. On the other hand, first time home buyers shouldn't be disappointed

if the best value isn't a new home at all -- but a used home.

We've had three homes and they've all been used. They required some work, but if you want more value for your dollar, and a larger lot in a closer-in neighborhood, that's the way to go.

[ddeclue]

17. I actually PREFER old homes.

They are usually built better, have more personality and individuality and are all around nicer.

I lived in a 100 year old + farm house in TN in the late 90's, a 70 year old duplex in down down Atlanta in the early to mid 90's and now I live in a 50 year old house in Orlando. They have been so much nicer than corporate anonymous generic apartments or corporate anonymous generic late model houses.

[PM Martin]

42. Homes built from the early 1950's until the late 1970's.

are very well built and reasonably sized.
The wannabe mansions of the past decade are part of the problem we have today.

[pnwmom]

47. Our first house was a fifties house, our second, a sixties,

and our third, early 80's. So it feels really new!

[spooky3]

53. someone told me yesterday that her 22-year-old house

was getting "old" and she and hubby knew they'd have to start replacing stuff, so they might move.

I live in a house that's almost 70 years old. Wonder what she thinks when she comes to visit me! :-)

[pnwmom]

55. Move instead of buying some new appliances? Or floor covering?

I have trouble even imagining that mindset.

[file83]

56. It will be interesting to see how the homes built from this last decade hold up

over then next 20-40 years.

[SpookyCat]

19. CS and I rent a lovely apt in SF, and can't imagine buying.

I just turned 41, CS is 39. We have no intention of leaving SF, so we will not own a home. That's the reality here.

We make a good living and have good credit, but even then a mortgage here would be so huge it would destroy the quality of life that we enjoy now, and make it near impossible to save for retirement. For us, it makes more sense to rent and save for the future.

Everyone is different,there's no one size fits all. For us renting is the way to go. I have run the numbers, discussed it with financial advisers and this is our best option.

I found for myself the balance between quality of life now, and a comfortable retirement, assuming the whole ship doesn't sink, which I really don't believe will happen.

Good luck to you, and to us all!

:hi:

[ddeclue]

24. Ok for the acronym challenged what is "CS"?

I tried to get it from context but I have no idea what you mean.

[sunnybrook]

32. I don't get it either

City Slicker? Cute Sweetheart?

[SpookyCat]

36. HA! Sorry!

Comrade Snarky, my husband.

I type too fast...

[pnwmom]

27. I think the key difference for many is having children.

Schools, friends, etc., are easier if you can stay in the same place for a while.

[SpookyCat]

38. That's generally true but our apt is a long term type place.

Many apts are transient in nature, true, but in SF there are those like the one we got, where people tend to get in and stay a while.

With our rent control here, if you score a nice place, it actually pays to stay put. We were HUGELY lucky, right-place-right-time with ours; a dear friends' uncle moved out and referred us, so we got a place I still can't quite believe we have. Most of the tenants here are 15+ year folks, and many previous tenants have left here, let's say feet first, which is pretty much what we plan.

As I said, every situation is different and every city as well. SFs tenant laws are pretty darn good, almost draconian if you're a landlord I suppose. LOL!

[pnwmom]

45. Rent control I'm sure helps with stability! Unfortunately, most cities

don't have it.

[ddeclue]

76. I think offering tax breaks for companies that allow telecommuting

would really help.

[AlCzervik]

28. we're in our 3rd home together and this one is 5 years from being paid off

we were lucky for once in timing and when we sell i will be happy to be free of homeownership.

we bought a lesser house than we could afford, we put 24% down and got a plain old 15 year fixed. We've been lucky and we know it.

[On the Road]

33. I Made a Similar Decision, Doug

about 7-8 years ago living in the DC area as a newly divorced single father on a telephone company salary. Looked like I had missed the boat, it was just too expensive.

Now things are becoming affordable again. If you have any inclination to own, and don't mind doing some renovation, right now is a great time to look.

Baltimore is a great market. I just saw a 6 bedroom 3 bath house advertised for $59,000. Needs work, but should be worth over $200k with renovations. If you don't want to go to auctions, a lot of wholesalers advertise on Craigslist.

[hedgehog]

34. A recent article in the New Yorker suggests that the housing bubble is only

the leading indicator for problems with the economy in Florida:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/02/09/090209fa_fact_packer


Essentially, the article suggests the entire Florida economy is based on people continually moving to Florida into just built houses. The problem is that eventually people stop moving to Florida.

[ddeclue]

78. Thanks NY'er now tell me something I don't know like: Sun rises in east sets in west - film at 11..

We've known that for years, decades even.

Florida's economy is so totally tied to the up and downswings of the national economy that it is truly insane.

Everything is based on tourism and housing development.

There is some high tech down here but not like California has always been or like Atlanta was in the 1980's and 1990's.

When the national (and world) economy tanks - guess what people stop doing?

Going to Disney and the attractions and going to Florida's beaches.

That totally kils the tourism market down here - hotels, restaurants, attractions, resorts, boat charters, scuba and surf gear rental and sales, etc., etc.

This only multiplies the downturn effect on our other main industry:

Real estate development - these unemployed people from the tourism industry stop buying houses and businesses stop buying commercial properties as well. Add to this all the vacation homes and snowbird condos that don't get sold and Florida real estate gets nuked.

Finally our whole tax base down here is tied to sales and property taxes - we have no income tax - and when these downturns happen our tax base totally evaporates because sales to tourists are way down and real estate values are way down.

Our legislature tends to overspend in boom times when they think they are rolling in the dough and never saves enough in a trust fund for the lean times when the tax base is bad. Worse yet, whatever has been saved is usually invested in some Wall Street stock investment of some sort and when the economy goes down, the value of these assets has gone down dramatically as well.

This means that instead of the state government being able to spend into the economy during lean times, it has to cut back too, only furthering our economic problems.

I think Florida is just a somewhat cheaper version of California with hurricanes instead of earthquakes. They seem to be having very similar problems in CA.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

39. Given the type of mobility your job requires, you would be CRAZY to buy

That's the one thing about real estate, it is a very illiquid asset. Unless someone anticipates being in a house AT LEAST 5 years, it's almost always better to rent.

I think home ownership has been oversold to many. Today's labor trends require more and more people that are able to quickly relocate themselves to where the jobs are. People who own real estate where the jobs AREN'T see their values droppping.

[AlCzervik]

40. we've relocated twice, from Mass to Texas and then to California.

[pnwmom]

51. Today's labor trends can be a nightmare for two-career families, divorced

parents, and families with school age children. Selling a house can be the least of your problems when you're forced to move.

I wish government would actively work to promote stability, rather than the opposite.

[ddeclue]

75. Yeah I've had some divorced friends from work over the years

and they truly have mobility issues when it comes to work. They can't leave the area - sometimes by court order - without losing their kids and the ex is usually a psycho who hates them and won't do anything to make the situation easier when they need to find a job.

Doug D.

[Fire1]

41. Had you been in another state you might have had a house

by now. Places like Florida, California and New York have been out of reach for the avg. american for years. It didn't just start in the last 8 years.

[ddeclue]

65. This is probably true... housing is cheaper in Georgia and much cheaper in AL and TN.

but I wanted to live in FL.

[freemarketer6]

43. Housing prices are basically still water-falling with some sporadic

relief by buyers hoping to catch a bottom. I would be very afraid to buy a house right now unless I had megabucks behind me. I think if you wait a while you may see another 25-30% reduction in housing prices. Inventory keeps building up. With builders now building nothing, the build up of inventory should continue, although at a declining rate as families are finally are forced to buy something. Things are bad. My daughter just moved from Vegas, where she rented a house. Half the houses on the street were in foreclosure.

[omega minimo]

57. DEVELOPERS OWN THE LOCAL CITY COUNTY GOVERNMENT. GET THEM OUT.

[marions ghost]

63. how?

local governments always cave to developers. Always. I've been part of citizen efforts to bring in people to help planning departments do a better job. Gets all kind of feelgood press. But the developers just laugh. Because there's no regulation. no real teeth...just polite suggestions. And then everybody goes back to doing what they were doing, and the building and lamenting what is built repeats in an endless cycle.

I live in a sensitive watershed area. The area is subject to periodic droughts. You would think I could get some answers when I ask the county how the local building boom has affected the watershed. Talk about crickets. The only honest guy at the planning dept said outright he didn't know (or care). The others scurried furtively into their offices. 'Go away you nasty environmentalist' was basically the answer to my questions.

I've seen people try to influence local govt re. responsible development. I've never seen it succeed. That being said, the time to break the cycle and finally stop putting up with it may never have been better.

We need to get the houses and neighborhoods we need, NOT what they decide to give us. But it won't be in my lifetime and I'm not that old. I've already waited 20 years for the promised mass transit system which still doesn't exist. They just dig in and hold out knowing that the citizens can't really sustain the opposition. I've done my time beating my head against the wall. There's all kinds of feel good lip service but no results. It's up to the next generation and go-od luck.

[omega minimo]

69. sounds familiar

ours has gotten SO blatantly corrupt and planning is currently under attack from within the City leadership, so people are pushing back.

"That being said, the time to break the cycle and finally stop putting up with it may never have been better."

[ddeclue]

66. ABSITIVELY!!!!

:)

This is true all across America..especially in FL.

There is no development "plan" down here, it's whatever the developers say it is.

We stopped them from putting up another high rise condo in downtown Orlando that was going to block out the sun across Thornton Park by a email campaign to the City commission that embarassed the developers and commissioners into re-thinking their plan last year - I bet those developers are glad we did that to them now given the huge slump in condos here in FL.

On the other hand, they've gone along gung ho in planning to build a new arena, a new arts center and in renovating the Citrus Bowl for which there is no sports team to the tune of 2 BILLION dollars here in Orlando and now they are running into the hard concrete wall of finances when the tax base has dried up and the economy has slumped (as we told them it would over a year ago) and they are having to scale these plans back and delay them. Of course Rich DeVos will get his new arena no matter who else gets screwed.

Doug D.

[omega minimo]

70. Gotta have that arena

so they can go to Vegas and spend THEIR billions on temples to themselves :puke:

We need election reform

The one bright spot of this $$$debacle is it's slowing them down and forcing the public to reconsider priorities.

Like survival.

[marions ghost]

83. congratulations

in banding together and having some effect against developers and commissioners...who never give any thought to impact, function, appeal, future use, etc...if there's a plot they can build something on they will.

Of course we all like to see public access facilities such as arts centers and sports facilities built ...but well, 2 billion! OK that's boondoggle, pork barrel, somebody's excess profits...if there ever was one. Have any local writers or journalists written about this (scathingly?)

:thumbsup: for your efforts. I got discouraged with it, but love to hear of where it has worked.
Still, there are no real sensible controls and it's always a battle. Why does sensible development have to be such a fight? (answer: greed)

And then they wonder why everybody's not so proud of this stuff they build.

[omega minimo]

87. one reason is greed and another is

"Why does sensible development have to be such a fight? (answer: greed)"

when you think you've seen it all and know they're slime beyond doubt and then they pull more ILLEGAL crap and get away with it, thanks to their connections...


they wear people down. but enough of a group can throw a wrench in their wretchedness.

:thumbsup:

[loyalsister]

60. Nothing is absolute

In my small midwestern urban area, environmental groups have recommended vertical building to - guess what keep the trees and help coordinate water drainage most effectively as we are dealing with an increasing population.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

64. After decades and decades of home ownership

my octogenarian folks rented a 2-bedroom apartment in Portland, Maine. The rest of the family was pretty shocked, but this particular building is full of other elderly couples/singles. Even though the rent gets increased every year, the perks outweigh the cost. No more snow shoveling, lawn mowing, pricey upkeep and repairs. And darn nice neighbors.

I got verrrry lucky in 2000. Bought the 2-bedroom condo I had been renting with a 30-year fixed and was paying around $800/month. I refinanced 4 years ago with a 15 year fixed and mortgage will be paid off in 7 years. So by then figure I'll be paying around $3,000 a year in property taxes and about $400-$450 a month in condo fees. I'm staying put! However....I don't see full retirement in the near future at all.

[Brewman_Jax]

67. I understand

in metro Atlanta, the prices started going skyward after the 1996 Olympics (IMO, the one of the worst things to happen to the area) and I had just gotten gainfully employed again. Buying a house wasn't an option then. Too many of my friends, esp. those married and planning for children, had to move into the far suburbs and exurbs. Like the real estate saying goes, drive until you can afford it. A few got into new subdivisions that were vertically integrated as you say in paragraph 4 and got deals they could live with. What savings those that moved far got were consumed by increased transport and maintenance costs. For the ones that moved to get away from the city, the city moved out to meet them. The old 2-lane roads weren't widened to meet the extra demand and the traffic is hideous! I could go on.

I still rent. I don't want to have to move out to East Bumblefuck or the West Boonies 'cause that's what I can afford. My parents still live in our house and aren't in great health so I stop by most weekends. My other brothers live out of way, have unstable job situations, and aren't very dependable. I don't have time to look after a house and parents--the gods forbid that I have to add a long drive to that. :hide:

I agree with your #3-#4. The evening news has the aftermath of a few houses inhabited in a partially-completed subdivision and the rest is open uncompleted PVC farms. Building materials being stolen and homeowners feeling stuck. It's not pretty. :(

[ddeclue]

71. I used to live in Atlanta from 1984-1996 and still have friends there

and know the situation you describe well. I wouldn't mind moving back to Atlanta if I could find a good job and afford a decent house. I really consider it to still be my home town and I miss Manuel's Tavern, Georgia Tech and my Atlanta Braves.

Orlando is just like Atlanta only coming up 30 years behind it as far as how development is being mismanaged down here. It won't be long until they have the same traffic problems that Atlanta has.

[Brewman_Jax]

77. You know the area

I'm in Dunwoody, one brother is in Kennesaw, friends (single) moved to Stockbridge, Lilburn, Snellville--drive 'til you can afford it. One guy I know tried intown (Grant Park) and bought a fixer-upper, but spent an insane amount of time working on the house. Between that and a partial-travel job and 2 break-ins, he had enough. He sold it after about 3-4 years and moved back to north Fulton co. It's like no middle ground, unless money is not a problem--you either have to live in the damned boonies and drive forever, or find an intown affordable fixer-upper and work on the house forever. :hide:

The running joke my Grant Park friend had was if he didn't stop into Lowe's or Home Depot at least twice a month, they'd send a "Get Well" card, because he "obviously" wasn't feeling well.

[ddeclue]

79. Sounds like me and my friends in the early 1990's in Atlanta.

We redid our hardwood floors in our run down old houses and some other things. I did my floors even though I rented because they were in such terrible shape.

[Orsino]

80. "The government" as accountant comes with its own set of problems...

...but I see no alternative that could provide anywhere near the transparency.

[joeglow3]

81. So, as a CPA in a Big Four, I was co-opted????

Don't buy it.

[ddeclue]

85. Used to be the Big EIGHT...

Tell it to Arthur Anderson.

:eyes:

[joeglow3]

89. Ironically, I worked for Andersen.

What you had was a small group (10-20) people who followed the law (at least,per the Supreme Court), but managed to drag down an entire company and put 30,000 of us out of a job. ANY large group of people (priests, police officers, politicians, etc.) has some crooked people. Even if the government were to audit companies, you would still have roughly the same percentage of bad apples who will dick us all over.

[WI_DEM]

84. Boy I'm glad I'm still renting too.

[gmoney]

88. I bought a house in 2001 when I was 37 and single

not a good move... if I'd kept my humble little 1 bedroom apartment and stayed out of debt, things would have been so much smoother, I'm convinced.

[zulchzulu]

90. I live in a home in Madison, WI that I would never be able to afford in San Francisco

I moved from the Bay area (where I rented for $3,000/month) to Madison, where I have lakefront property that would easily cost over a million in CA... you decide on whether you want great weather all year or not essentially...

[pnwmom]

93. There are some advantages in buying that haven't been mentioned.

If you purchase with a manageable fixed rate mortgage, and are able to remain in the house for at least several years, you'll have more stability in your housing costs.

Yes, you have to sell if you need to move. But you won't have to move at the whim of a landlord.

You can alter the home to suit. We have allergies, so that's important. (I realize that some rental owners will let you make alterations, but that's money you've thrown away. Also, you might have to return the apartment to it's original condition.)

You can have any pets that you want. Many landlords forbid them.

[mnhtnbb]

99. I encouraged my 21 yo (very mature) son to buy a new townhouse

in Feb 08. Rents kept increasing. He never wanted to go to college (works in IT) so we (his parents)
loaned him money for his down payment and let him use money his grandmother left him for the rest of the down to buy down his 5.5% mortgage to a monthly payment level he could afford.

The townhouse is in a new development in Cary (NC) five minutes from his work. He loves it.
He's thinking about getting a roommate for the second bedroom--so he can save about $400./mo
on his mortgage.

I took title with him so he can't decide to sell it and buy a fast car with equity unless I agree!

:rofl:

On edit: I'm going to encourage him to play with TurboTax when he does his taxes this year
to see what the effect would be on his taxes if he decides to rent his 2nd bedroom.