The pie-chart on the radio crap-

[diamondsoul]

Ok folks, listen up. Someone decided to throw this at me in another thread that wasn't too kind to their candidate, as if I should be embarrassed for some reason.

I'm not embarrassed, and in point of fact, I'm proud of my candidate. I'm completely and totally embarrassed by the people who have opted to ignore the very important statements that accompanied the use of said pie chart! From the WaPo transcript, page three linked-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59300-2004Jan6_3.html


KUCINICH: It's interesting to hear Governor Dean's assertion about how he won't balance the budget -- or how he will try to balance the budget when he refuses to admit that there needs to be cuts in the bloated Pentagon budget.

I don't see how in the world, when you have something that at this point takes up about 50 percent of the discretionary budget...

CONAN: Congressman Kucinich is holding up a pie chart, which is not truly effective on the radio.

KUCINICH: Well, it's effective if Howard can see it.

KUCINICH: Fifty percent of the budget's taken up by defense: How you going to balance the budget if you refuse to cut the bloated Pentagon budget?

People, do you GET this? Does Howard Dean GET this?? FIFTY-freakin' PERCENT of our "discretionary spending", this ain't chump-change and I'm stunned that so many people would ignore this important information to focus on the way it was presentend and smear my candidates intelligence. THIS is the kind of foolishness that got us into this mess, people not paying attention to the message because they were too busy attacking the messenger.

GROW UP, people! More than that use your brains and think about what Kucinich did in that debate- he risked his own reputation to make a solid and important point to the other candidates in this race. He concedes that there is a chance he'll lose the race, and he's trying to HELP YOU! Even if he wins, again USE your brains, folks! How many of these candidates will remain in congress if their Presidential bids fail? How many of them will have a direct impact on the legislation he wants to see passed, including cuts to the Pentagon budget? Oh but hey, let's not use a little logic here and care about the American people because it's all about image, right? Kucinich doesn't look, sound or act "Presidential", right?

SHOW ME any candidate who has taken the lead as often and with as much personal risk as he has in this race. Please, I'd like to see one of them show me as much leadership potential as Dennis Kucinich has shown me. I'd like just one of them to put US above themselves the way Kucinich does repeatedly. And most of all I'd like to see Dennis Kucinich get the respect and the credit for that they way he deserves instead of BS smears like this one.

**Mods, please let me know if any of this is considered "personal attack" and I'll be glad to edit. I'm angry and it shows, but I tried to keep it pretty general and not outside any rules.

[Atlant]

1. I want you to know...

> CONAN: Congressman Kucinich is holding up a pie chart, which is
> not truly effective on the radio.
>
> KUCINICH: Well, it's effective if Howard can see it.

I want you to know (and I'm a Dean supporter, BTW) that I thought
this crap about "the pie chart on radio" was just about the cheapest
shot I've heard in this entire campaign. I understand EXACTLY
what Dennis meant here and what he was trying to accomplish, and I
know I might have done the exact same thing he did.

I just wanted you to know that.

Atlant

[janx]

3. I'm a Dean supporter too and feel exactly the same way.

It WAS effective because Dean could see it.

Very cheap shot for people to be bringing this up.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

45. thanks, I agree

I can't stand Dean, but I'll stick up for him when they smear him with cheap shots (like Ted Kraphole's dumb-ass "raise your hand if Dean can win" question at the previous debate.

[Lestat de Lioncourt]

2. This is a sad and cheap shot to a great man.

Lay off D.K. already! He's put up with enough of everyone's crap!

[Mistress Quickly]

4. my 2 cents

disclaimer: I haven't said anything about any candidates in any of the threads because I have not made up my mind yet

but

I just don't think it was that strange that Dennis Kucinich had a pie chart to use for reference, and to show Howard Dean.

If you are speaking before people and use notes, but they aren't going to / can't see them, that doesn't make it odd.

He made his point. He said pie chart, and everyone listening with half a brain had an image of a pie chart in their head and could follow along.


on edit: jeez I should read it before I hit post

[Hep]

5. Why would you even bring this up?

This is such a non issue that I can't believe any Kucinich supporter would actually draw attention to it by talking about it.

[diamondsoul]

11. Uh, Hep??

Did you read the whole post? What I emphasized was the MESSAGE and the way people are ignoring it to focus on petty attack items instead.

The whole rant is about people ignoring sane rational messages just to be malicious and petty, and there are two more prime examples right here in this very thread.

I don't give a flying FIG if people think DK has a chance at the nomination, he damned well deserves credit for working his butt off to get the truth out there, and that message deserves to be the focus of the people who claim to be "progressive" and "liberal" Democrats.

[Atlant]

12. I give him that credit.

> I don't give a flying FIG if people think DK has a chance at the
> nomination, he damned well deserves credit for working his butt off
> to get the truth out there,

I give him that credit.

In a better world, I think I could easily be a DK supporter.

There are several people in the campaign that deserve better than
they've gotten.

Atlant

[diamondsoul]

25. Thank you Atlant.

Sorry to ignore your kind words in favor of the bashers. Outrage does that to me at times.

Can I make a point here? After watching Wellstone's successes, I'm completely convinced that unless people like you and I support candidates like Kucinich whenever we have the chance, it will NEVER BE a "better world". It's up to us to make one, and we can't do that without a struggle or risk.

Not trying to insult you here, just presenting a different perspective on the "better world" idea. It gets bandied about a lot, and I thought it was a good time to point that out.

[cryofan]

40. It is a big deal! Have you not noticed that the pie chart story got lots..

....of play in the media. Many major newspaper reprinted that story. And what happened to the beautiful Knight Ridder story from the day before that made DK look like the next coming of Lincoln? That one went exactly NOWHERE.

So, yes, this pie chart story is important because of the play it got compared to the KN story......

But I guess I am the only person who seems to care about that aspect!

[diamondsoul]

47. No you aren't.

Should I write something similar to my seeder as an editorial, maybe? Seriously, if you want to help, make a realistic suggestion about how to reap the benefits of the coverage.

[blm]

92. No you aren't. The media has purposely chosen their candidate and

all other candidates are to be marginalized unless it's more fun to mock them and their efforts.

[brainshrub]

6. I agree. But...

Look, I nothing for love for Kucinich. He is a great man who has the integrity, intelligence and courage to be a wonderful president.

But did he need to bring a pie-chart to a radio debate? Couldn't he have just said: "50% of discretionary spending is used up by the military" without the chart?

Not only did he not need the chart to make his point, it made him look like a fool.

That's just the way I feel about it.

[diamondsoul]

15. You won't know if it was needed

or not until we find out if it made any sort of impression on the other candidates. THAT was the purpose for it. Dismissing it as foolish without waiting to see if it accomplished anything is what is really foolish, imo.

No offense, and I appreciate you stating your impression without being insulting.:toast:

[janx]

22. It didn't make him look like a fool--we couldn't SEE him!

Joking aside, his saying "Howard can see it" was the point. He wanted to get something across to Dean and used a chart to initiate the conversation.

People making a big deal out of this or saying that Kucinich is a fool for doing so surely must have better things to do with their time.

[MuseRider]

7. I thought it was hysterical.

My husband and I both sat here and laughed, we thought it was brilliant and funny and typical Kucinich. It was a means to differentiate himself that was possibly a risk (CNN sure thought he was not too bright) but an important message.

[Atlant]

14. Don Henley got it right...

> CNN sure thought he was not too bright

Don Henley got it right:

Dirty Laundry

I make my living off the evening news
Just give me something that I can use
People love it when you lose
They love dirty laundry

Well I could have been an actor
But I wound up here
I just have to look good
I don't have to be clear
Come and whisper in my ear
We need dirty laundry

Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em all around

We got the bubble-headed bleach blonde
Comes on at five
She can tell ya 'bout the plane crash
With a gleam in her eye
It's int'resting when people die
Give us dirty laundry

<more>

[MuseRider]

17. Yup

he certainly got that right. Thanks.

[DrBB]

8. Kucinich's "Pie chart" moment

...was actually a great moment for him, I thought--his little comeback ("It's effective if Howard can see it") was, I thought, quite deft and funny--made what could have been a real gaffe into a display of wit.

Actually, I thought the whole crew came off really well, compared to the debates--what I saw of them--earlier in the season. They all seem to have gained a lot of confidence and I thought this moment illustrated that pretty well. I really didn't get any sense of rancor or back-stabbing attempts; much more a sense of people on the same side disagreeing on details but essentially all on the same team. Maybe this sounds naive, but I was really expecting something much more vitriolic. Only thing that really pissed me off was when Lieberman went on about how we have to be nice and cooperative with Republicans. Even that wasn't as bad as it might have been....

Anyway, I thought that was a great moment for Kucinich and made his point all the more effective--a jab at Dean, to be sure, but it did seem to me he was more concerned to make the defense budget's increasing blotage part of the dialogue.

For the record: I consider myself a Clark supporter.

[KissMyAsscroft]

9. It's easy to be a "risk taker"

when you have nothing to lose.

[underpants]

10. Yeah I'd like $2 on the three-legged horse in the fifth race please

Kucinich? Please

The commentator was doing what he was supposed to do, commentate. Holding up a pie -chart(give me a second while I stop laughing) on a radio show is not going to cost DK anyway because he never had a shot at the nomination. I know many of you love what he says and I agree with some of it but to ever have thought there was any way he could be on the ticket is beyond wishfull thinking. He has brought up some good points and layed himself out for this he and Sharpton and Braun have been candidacies to voice what has not been said. I can't explain Gephardt and Lieberman or what they thought they would accomplish so I give more credit to DK than them.

[Desertrose]

31. underpants....

your undies are looking a bit dingy...maybe you should use bleach.

( This is to counter your "$2 on the three legged horse in the fifth" comment- makes about as much sense as yours too)


And did you miss the part where he mentioned the pie chart was for Dean...now I thought THAT was hilarious.

Peace
DR

edit clarity

[underpants]

42. Well at least he didn't wave at Stevie Wonder

which this is on par with.

Remember that?

[redqueen]

55. Stupid crap

~Well at least he didn't say Job was in the New Testament.~
(Said with all the maturity of a six-year-old sticking their tongue out.)

Which is what your comment is on par with.

Is the whole MEANING of this thread getting ANY clearer?

[underpants]

69. No it's not

and you aren't helping any. Apparently I originally tried to make a joke and comment on a joke to the wrong crowd. But then look who they are supporting, the irony is thick 'round here.

[redqueen]

72. "I originally tried to make a joke"

Most people experienced with text-only conversation understand the need for emoticons if the humor is not self-evident.

Given your other comments, it's a wonder you expected anyone to know this was your idea of a joke.

[underpants]

82. Some people don't need it

but if it helps

:bounce:

"Oh" redqueen says "that changes everything.......what the hell was I talking about...."

[redqueen]

86. Heh, pretty much!

*blush*

[Desertrose]

56. are you saying Dean is blind?

damn,thats pretty funny underpants....

Oh, no wait...you weren;t saying that...well then I guess it ain;t exactly on a par with the bush/stevie thing...
DUH!

Clorox is good but don't use it straight

:evilgrin:
DR

[underpants]

70. It is

but thatboat has apparently already passed you by as did the joke......as with Dennis.

[Desertrose]

87. Nah, I got it...I smiled....

...but my joke about Dean was equally as funny ...
Maybe I should have said a braille pie chart for Dean..

now THATS even funnier LOL

and by the way...you may have missed that Dennis MADE the joke about Howard needing to see it..



Maybe try some Oxy-clean for the grungies??

Peace
DR

[diamondsoul]

13. And look to the two posts above this one

for a perfect example of the nonsense that may just cost us the election.

Ladies and Gents, I never ASKED for your Primary votes, nor your assessment of Kucinich's chances of winning the nomination. It is NOT "easy to take a risk when you've got nothing to lose" and the statement doesn't apply to Dennis Kucinich anyway. He's got a career in te US House of Representatives to lose, he's got the faith of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of supporters to lose, and he's got a Primary nomination to lose.

Once again, SHOW ME ONE other candidat who has taken these kinds of risks selflessly and determinedly. Spare me the Kucinich bashing and if you can't then bugger off my thread!

[redqueen]

18. They can't

So mocking and insulting is the next best thing to admitting most candidates are a bit on the cowardly side.

[MuseRider]

19. I say

good for you! He has his career to lose and he has been there before. This guy will take risks because he believes in them. I wish I could say that much for myself sometimes. Nothing but guts, intellegence and integrity. If you do not like him or believe in him then fine but he should be given his due, he is fighting for us often at his personal risk.

[underpants]

20. So do you want an answer or should I just bugger off?

The reason that I can't give you another candidate who took these "risks" (interesting way to put it) is that none of them would have done anything quite that uh un-thought-out so as to create your own embarrassing headline. At least I would hope they wouldn't but then earlier this week who would have thought someone might show up at a radio debate with a pie chart?

My point was (and I thought I put some nice things about DK in there) is that getting all wound up about DK, in terms of getting the nomination, is a waste of energy as is getting upset because someone said something mean about your candidate. Truth be told it comes of as being quite Dean supporter- (no nicknames) -esque. There I said it.

[diamondsoul]

23. There is absolutely NOTHING

wasted in supporting Dennis Kucinich in this Primary. I'm not the least bit "wound up" about his getting the nomination, as a matter of fact. I'm "wound up" about my fellow citizens acting like ignorant jackasses and ignoring something critical to the future of this nation's fiscal health because they'd rather act like school-children and ridicule the messenger.

I'm not upset because someone "said something mean about my candidate" I'm upset because people continuously put the focus on petty stupid sh*t instead of the content being brought up. I'm sick of people acting stupid and then whining about the mess we're in!

Fer criminy's sake, if you refuse to listen to the rational messenger just because you think his methods are whacky, you've got nothing to bitch about when people like Bushco wind up in charge!

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[diamondsoul]

46. "...don't use a visual aid at a radio address."

Why not if the person the visual aid is meant for is sitting right in front of you?!

Maybe you're right. Maybe Dennis and I have been giving the rest of the country's citizenry too much credit. Maybe they are all so assinine they can't see the forest for the trees and would rather focus on the petty side-swipes than the facts presented.

"Like I said in my original post it is good to have candidates who will cut to the chase and state what needs to be said but the reason they are able to do that is because they aren't really in the race."

That is complete bull-shit. Was Wellstone in the race when he won his Senate seat? Guess he was, since he won, huh? Was he a conventional politician? Did he do some whacky stuff to make a point? This superficial qualification that if they speak about the subjects that need to be addressed they aren't viable is just enough to make me puke.

For God's sake, man, look around you! This disaster isn't going to be fixed by someone who follows the standard political format. You're doing the same "in a better world" stuff brought up earlier in the thread. Well as long as people like you, and people who are too scared to step up and MAKE a better world outnumber the rest of us we're all f*cked.

Yeah, you betcha I'm bitching. Not whining because that happens when I'm sad, right now I'm just pissed off and disgusted. It's the same shit I hear from the other candidates "Yeah, I want this for you but I'm not ballsy enough to stand up and demand it on your behalf, but vote for me anyway because I'm better than Bush!"

F*CK THAT! Better than Bush doesn't mean shit to me when people are still without healthcare, when kids are still living on the streets and in cars, and depending on free school lunch programs just to have a decent frigging meal. Meanwhile FIFTY G-DAMNED PERCENT of our discretionary spending is flushed down the toilet via pointless military spending!

We have soldiers ON THE F*CKING BATTLEFIELD with no body armor because of this BS and nobody has enough guts to stand up and say this is wrong except Dennis Kucinich, and BAMMO, let's all insist "But he's too fringe to win!". Yeah, this has turned into a total rant about all the bull-shit that is plaguing me right now. If any of it makes just ONE person get off their wimpy asses and fight for what's right then it's worth it.

[underpants]

48. Because the debate is not directed to fellow candidates

but is supposed to be directed those listening or watching. Like I said above you have to get the votes and get elected. That is why it is called campaigning.

I agree with you about the wastefulness of the discretionary spending (and for that matter the wastefulness of the DoD budget- horribly mismanaged)but saying that you want to slash the Pentagon budget now is frankly political suicide. You have to get votes. If that involves not showing your whole hand and not exactly telling the entire truth that is what needs to be done. That is how politics have ALWAYS worked. Is it wrong sure that is why people don't trust politicians but they know (if they aren't apathetic) that someone has to fill the position so they vote for who they think will best do that. That is politics.

[redqueen]

50. Must be old age - I can't quite recall, but...

Didn't Clinton say during his campaign that he'd cut the military budget?

[underpants]

53. I don't remember either

but wht he DID was streamline it and upgrade it.

Actually Poppa Bush started the downsizing after Gulf 1.

[redqueen]

57. *watches point fly over underpants' head*

Um, what I meant was... I think another Democrat got himself elected doing just that.

:eyes:

[underpants]

71. Comparing the campaigning ability of DK to Clinton

Apples and Oranges (and thinking they are both in the same food group is a stretch).

[redqueen]

74. Geez you don't give up do you?

SO now it's not that you can't win if you campaign on cutting the defense budget, it's that you can only do that if you ... what? Are Clinton? Is Clinton the only person who can campaign on that and win?

Give it up already. Clinton campaigned on the left (he even lied to us and promised to pass a law to enact something akin to the Fairness Doctrine).

He also was crap in the polls for the longest time. IIRC, it was right up until he got lots of press for his affair. The one with Gennifer Flowers, the others came later, didn't they? Ah, old age.

[underpants]

81. Give it up already

That's good advice you should heed it.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[diamondsoul]

61. "...but is supposed to be directed those listening or watching."

Who the hell made up these rules you keep spouting and when did I or anyone else agree to them?

Did you forget that the other candidates are also registered voters or something? Did it escape you that a number of them have a direct influence on legislation that affects the issues whether they become the nominee or not?

Your bogus rules only apply to candidates who care more about winning than about actually serving the American people. Dennis Kucinich is not one of those and that is EXACTLY why I want him to be my President. This is not a game despite our proclivity for turning very real and life or death situations into a morbid and despicable "game". Kucinich and his supporters aren't "playing politics", we're leading a charge on the corporatocracy that has taken over this country. Your persistance in spouting rules for what is essentially a peaceful civil war is not helpful to anyone anywhere or at any time.

You think Dean or Clark or whichever "popular, viable" candidate you support is the best guy for the job, fine and dandy! Vote for your choice, but don't sit here and tell me that supporting my idea of the right man for the job is somehow wrong or that I'm hopeless for it. That message you can....well keep to yourself.

[underpants]

67. Oh for crying out loud

what in the world are you talking about? If you don't get elected it doesn't matter what you think. This is useless you need to figure out how the system works and get back to yourself I'm tired of hearing this moral victory crap.

[diamondsoul]

95. "I'm tired of hearing this moral victory crap."

The don't G-damned read the threads I start!

[Nadienne]

24. Someone once suggested

something along the lines of, use the bricks that get thrown at you as a foundation for your success...

Media commentators can snicker about bringing a visual aid to a radio debate, and Kucinich and his supporters can then point out that the visual aid was for Dean, who seems to want to increase funding for social programs... but in order to do that, Dean will either have to raise taxes or cut the pentagon budget...

[TLM]

28. raise taxes or cut the pentagon budget...

Nope, simply redirect the pentagon funds to domestic defense needs. It reamins defense spending, but addresses domestic needs like first responders and port security etc.

[underpants]

35. Wow that sounds like a well thought out crafted political response

Seriously that was very good but can you move to your left I can't see the pie chart.

[redqueen]

26. Um... question

Why do they do other stupid-as-hell things then that create embarassing headlines?

I guess it's more important to pander to rural Americans who like the Confederate Flag than to educate not only Americans, but also the other candidates, who seem to have no clue as to how badly out of whack our budget is? Is it more important to calm workers' anxiety by saying stuff like 'let India have the technical jobs'?

What exactly, in your opinion, is worth an embarassing headline?

[underpants]

41. I don't know why they do them

but this one takes the cake so far (and no I'm not going to make a pun there).

There is a better way to pose the question other then what DK did. Simply ask it.

Yes the budget is out of whack but if W can't control his lock stepping Repubes to not only cut spending but NOT increase it no one is able to. That is the problem, even Reagan couldn't stop it let alone Clinton who got less than 50% of the vote and was in a death struggle with a vicious opponent party. Spending is the problem and NO ONE has been able to stop it.

Oh and you don't have to pander but without votes all you get is moral victory and you can't govern with that.

[redqueen]

54. Sidestep

By saying, "that none of them would have done anything quite that uh un-thought-out so as to create your own embarrassing headline." That you were inferring that other candidates didn't 'create their own embarassing headlines'.

Obviously, they have.

And you seem to think that Kucinich is the odd man out.

All the candidates were trying to further their campaigns when they committed these gaffes (Dean trying to get white Southern votes, Clark trying to defuse the massive job-loss issue, etc.)

Kucinich was doing no different. And IMNSHO, he was doing it for a MUCH greater cause.

[underpants]

68. Matter of degree

No one has done anything quite THAT stupid IMHO and DK got off light because the press has let it pass. I'd chalk that up to mercy and move on.

[redqueen]

76. You don't like to stick to the issue, do you?

My question to you was about your personal opinion. Not the press, nor their motivations - yours.

You finally answered though.

To you, Kucinich's gaffe was the stupidest, and committing a gaffe is just that - it doesn't matter what substance surrounds it. It's just funny ha ha material and after that you move on.

Encouraging.

[underpants]

83. I'm not the one who missed the joke to start with

Both DK's and mine.

I expressed my personal opinion to start with.

ARe you finished losing this stupid argument yet or do you want to keep going?

I supply and explanation to anything that you might not understand but give me time as it I need to consider things that usually are a given.

[redqueen]

90. Which "joke" would that be? The one about Stevie Wonder?

Or the one about the 3-legged whatever it was.

Your many explanations wouldn't be necessary if concise answers were available. :)

[underpants]

102. Or if concise reading had been done

Work on it.

[oasis]

16. Any of the candidates could have easily done similar. No big deal.

[Nadienne]

21. Ah, but they didn't (n/t)

[TLM]

27. Oh lighten up.... it was FUNNY!

If Dean brought a pie chart to the radio debate, everybody here would be making the same jokes... and the CLark and Kerry folks would be screaming how it proves Dean can't win the GE.


As for the pentagon budget... Dean wants to redirect some pentagon spending to domestic defense needs like first responders and port checks etc. Instead of cutting one spending program then putting a new program into effect. The net result is the same, but without giving Bush Co. the "weak on defense" attack.

It's a much more effective way of addressing the problem than just saying cut cut cut defense, which is a bad platform to run on.

[diamondsoul]

29. "If Dean brought a pie chart to the radio debate, everybody...."

Uh, NO, not "everybody" would be making jokes if there was a valid point being made.

And you're among tose who consistantly attacks Kucinich as a flake, not to mention misrepresenting his positions just like you've done here. I'm not inclined to take your advice to heart after being continuously insulted by you over months of posting.

[Desertrose]

38. you're right diamondsoul...."everybody" would be

praising Dean for being so clever.
"See how he makes his points to the others?"
"He is soo clever, isn't he??"
:puke:

Dennis does what he has to do to get the point accross- the issues are more important than how he is perceived. I like it that someone has that much passion and cares that much.

Go Dennis!

Peace
DR

[TLM]

51. Of course they would make jokes....

If Dean took a pie chart to a radio debate, we'd hear nothing but jokes about it for a week at least.


IT'S FUNNY!

[redqueen]

58. The issue is not whether it's funny

The WHOLE point of this thread is to elucidate the problem that people have in focusing on the trivial instead of the substantial.

I think most of the responses to this thread pretty much prove the theory.

[Desertrose]

63. I think maybe Dean supporters should

question why Dennis felt that Dean needed to see a pie chart to "get" it..
but thats just the way I see it.

Yup...points zipping over many heads,eh,redqueen?

Peace
DR

[TLM]

65. Oh please... if people did not focus on the trivial...

nobody would be focusing on Kucinich's campaign at all.

[Desertrose]

66. and you know this because....??

you know everything?

You are flat out wrong my friend.
way off the mark...
not even close...
but thanks for sharing...

Peace
DR

[TLM]

73. Because Kucinich's campaign is trivial....

[redqueen]

77. That's really sad

There is ONE candidate truly on the side of the people (not the powerful), and you dismiss him as 'trivial'.

Didn't you also call him a troll? Or an elf? Or a gnome? Or was that someone else?

Anyway, way to add some stubstance to the debate.

:eyes:

[TLM]

80. First off I think Dean is very much for the people

that's why I support him.


And Kucinich's campaign is trival... he's not in the lead in any state. I think his best standing is like 5th place. He is a trivial candidate and that's not going to change no matter how good or liberal you think he is.

[redqueen]

89. Your perception of Dean is noted, but erroneous IMO

I know many people believe his sudden conversion to populism. I don't.

Regarding your evidence that Kucinich's campaign is trivial -- some of us don't live and breathe by what the polls say. :)

[blm]

30. It's absurd to attack DK for this.

He is doing exactly what any candidate should do. Point out LEGITIMATE differences.

[REP]

32. It Was Ridiculous

How many televised debates have there been, and to which one did he bring his charts? To the only radio-only debate. That's just laughable. It shows just how badly run his campaign is. He deserves to be ridiculed - for this stupid stunt, and for his inept, unrealistic campaign and for his shameful voting record. He hasn't done anything that I think is worthy of lauding. Others obviously disagree, but to object so piteously when anyone doesn't fall down and kiss St Dennis's hem doesn't make the candidate look any better

[iowapeacechief]

39. How was this a "stunt"?

Why did Conan editorialize as he did? That's my main question about all this. He could have said: "Congressman Kucinich is holding up a pie chart illustrating his point."

Dennis conned him into setting up the laugh line, right?


CONAN: Congressman Kucinich is holding up a pie chart, which is not truly effective on the radio.

KUCINICH: Well, it's effective if Howard can see it.

[REP]

43. You're Right- It's Only A Stunt If People Can See It

Why didn't he bring is charts to the televised debates? Why doesn't he have a shred of a sense of humor?

Neil Conan's response would have been appropriate no matter who brought the charts to a radio debate. It would have been funny no matter who did it. It just happened to be Kucinich, who hasn't managed to do anything right in his campaign.

[goodhue]

44. he always has a prop with him

More often than not its a newspaper article headline from that day or the day before. Sometimes its a chart about spending, sometimes an account of CEO pay. He uses these props when speaking to groups whether at a debate or otherwise, without regard to being on tv or on the radio. Go back to the over the TV debates and you'll find instances of his use of such paper props. Sunday it was about CEO pay I believe. Radio broadcast was incidental to his possession of chart. Conan was merely describing what was going on and cleverly so. DK had good come back. What is bizarre is that some AP hack who otherwise would never write about DK at all, chose to make this a squib story over the wires without any comment on the substance of the chart. Now, that is silly.

It kind of reminds me of the time DK pulled out a newspaper article from his jacket pocket when speaking to hundreds of supporters. He described in practical terms how current events related to his policy positions. Silly man, didn't he realize he was not on TV. What was he thinking?

[redqueen]

78. AP writes about chart joke, not substance

Nope, that's not silly, that's par for the corporate media whore course.

They don't want anyone finding out about 51% of the discretionary budget (and growing daily) going to the military.

Just like they write about his date, not the fact that he helped all citizens of this country by forcing Diebold's hand.

People should be thanking him, instead they call him names and insult him.

Should I be surprised?

[mouse7]

34. They've all had their "DOH!" moments

Kerry when he announced he would not appoint John Ashcroft as his Att'y General. Dean with Job as his favorite book in the New Testament. Gephardt using executive orders to overcome Supreme Court decisions. Clark saying he'd beat the shit out of Rove live on CSPAN.

These guys have been working 18-20 hours a day 7 days a week for a much as a year with no break for months to be seen. Expecting these people not to have the occasional "DOH!" moment is unrealistic.

Give them a break and laugh at their moments of being human.

[goodhue]

36. amen n/t

[cryofan]

37. of course "pie chart" story got much more play than the Knight Ridder one

The Knight Ridder Washington DC bureau story ran the day before the pie chart story. And not one single online media outlet picked that Knight Ridder story. And of course the Knight Ridder story was the most positive story about Dennis I have yet seen. Figures.....

[redqueen]

60. Pretty much proves what diamondsoul has been saying

Most people seem to think the amount we spend on Defense is

Hey! Must See TV is on! Cool! I can take refuge from all the big bad scary things I don't want to think about!

[ThirdWheelLegend]

49. "KUCINICH: Well, it's effective if Howard can see it. "

That is exactly the point people who mock Dennis are missing.

He was doing it to show Dean and others where Dean is wrong. That you cannot balance the budget and keep the Pentagon budget unless you cut ELSEWHERE. By cutting the very things that atually BENEFIT the common person.

TWL

[burning bush]

52. The 50% Figure Got Discussed More, Didn't it?

I'm a Dean supporter, but I don't take offense to DK's jab. It was legitimate!

Here's my real point...if DK didn't use his pie chart--if he was more concerned about how he appeared than the message he delivered, then this 50% figure would have been just another moment in a debate.

Now, it is THE moment in the debate. To some folks it made DK looks silly, but that is irrelevant.

DK made his point, and made it much larger than he would have otherwise been able.

That took guts and brains, not a superficial dependance on appearances. Anyone who bashes him on this point is obviously more concerned about later than the former.

If I were Dean, I would be honored to have DK as an opponent, and happy to have him as an ally.

[redqueen]

59. No

What are most of the posts on this thread about?

Here, a forum for liberals / democrats, and the debate is still about the 'gaffe', not the issue.

The thread I started? About the issue? Sunk like a stone.

This one? About how 'funny' it is, and all the highschoolish commentary thereon? How many posts are we up to now?

Honestly.

[burning bush]

64. Yes!

I heard about the issue on Crossfire last night, and also about the 50% budget figure.

Crossfire is a national program, with political junkies of all sorts listening.

How many more people watch Crossfire than listened to the Dem debate on NPR?

Again, it doesn't help DK's image much, but screw images!

It got out the point, and that's the point ;)

[redqueen]

79. I don't think that many watch Crossfire

What time is it on again?

Sorry, but you're looking at this from your perspective only. From what I've seen he's not gained anything from the mainstream media on this one, either.

[MuseRider]

62. Thank you.

[iowapeacechief]

85. Any others like you out there?!

You wrote: "If I were Dean, I would be honored to have DK as an opponent, and happy to have him as an ally."

Best line of this thread. Thanks, Burning Bush!

[burning bush]

88. Trust em, Kucinich rates high for many Dean supporters

we have MUCH in common, IMO, even when we disagree.

Don't let anyone say differently.

[RetroLounge]

91. Great sentiment here

"If I were Dean, I would be honored to have DK as an opponent, and happy to have him as an ally."

I agree totally. DK is a good man.

[diamondsoul]

97. Retro, you and BurningBush

are the kind of Dean supporters I can respect and I think you greatly for being the good people you are.

Certain others can just...welllll BITE ME!(sorry, but I'm sick of the stupidity from some.)

Oh, and BTW, BurningBush and RetroLounge are the kind of people who may help salvage whatever is left of this nation. Others of you are hell-bent on self-destruct.

[TLM]

75. Kucinich's new infrastructure plan follows his radio pie chart policy

He'll be adding braile to all freeway signs and fast food drive up window menus.

[underpants]

84. LOL

That is too funny but truth is stranger than fiction.

[diamondsoul]

99. Again, bugger off my thread. n/t

[Printer70]

98. LOL

>He'll be adding braile to all freeway signs

He did take on the pressing problem of "space-based mind control", so Kucinich knows his priorities.

[diamondsoul]

100. "space based mind-control"

Mmm, yes and there's no such thing as psychoactive anything being used today, right? As I said above, spare me the Kucinich bashing or BUGGER OFF MY THREAD! I am SO not in the mood for this crap!

[Printer70]

105. have a sense of humor

kucinich did support a space-based mind control ban and it was probably a little paranoid. that's all.

[redqueen]

101. Facts, anyone?

It was actually space based weapons, but don't let me rain on your smear parade.

[Printer70]

104. The Facts: Kucinich bill referenced mind control

The bill specifically referenced mind control:

"(II) through the use of land-based, sea-based, or space-based systems using radiation, electromagnetic, psychotronic, sonic, laser, or other energies directed at individual persons or targeted populations for the purpose of information war, mood management, or mind control of such persons or populations;"

H.R. 2977

[Logansquare]

93. Dean supporter here

Conan took a total cheap shot. He's clearly working on the standard script that Kucinich was the "goofy one."

[iowapeacechief]

94. That was my take, too.

Thanks, Logansquare. That's what I meant in Reply 39.

[dpbrown]

103. That's it? He "showed" 50% of the budget for offense on the radio?

Joe and Jane Sixpack can understand what 50% is, even without seeing a chart. That Dennis used a chart (not effective on the radio), is meaningless because the idea came through loud and clear.

It's 50% and it's easy to chart.

It's so easy you can even understand it on the radio.

End of story.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[iowapeacechief]

106. Has anyone seen Dennis' chart--except Howard?

I saw he used it again in his Iowa Public Television interview with David Yepsen (viewable on C-SPAN site).

But is it posted on the Web somewhere? It should be. I don't find it at http://kucinich.us/. Has anyone seen it anywhere? Or know the source?

[goodhue]

107. I saw it on MSNBC tonight when Dennis used it again during debate

The chart is kind of small (pocket-sized) but the colors are nice and it gets the point across. The camera helpfully did a quick close up. Its amazing that 50% of US spending goes to Rumsfeld. But no one's talking about the chart this time because debate not on radio.

[NV1962]

108. Clearly a non-issue

to me at least. Should have been a non-starter.

Plenty of real issues and positions to debate out there.

I smell a diversion tactic.

Edited to clarify I'm referring to the silly "pie chart on radio" thing, and not Dennis Kucinich's intended point!

[iowapeacechief]

109. 50 percent miltary spending is the REAL issue...

...so thanks for your edit.