Dean doing better "since Dennis spoke to me"

[iowapeacechief]

I joined DU because I was so hot about Dean claiming only he "opposed the war from the start," and I wanted everyone to know how that felt to a Kucinich supporter who was trying to like Dean, too.

My first post told about going to Dean's rally and coming away disappointed. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=49199&mesg_id=52158

Yesterday I got a chance to speak with him about it.

"No, I HAVE been giving Dennis credit," he said.

It's been inconsistent, I said. I'm watching, and more often than not he claims he was "the only" one.

"No," he said. "I always say Dennis Kucinich was the only one who voted against the war."

Then he added: "Ever since Dennis spoke to me."

"Okay, you're doing better," I said.

Last night I went to his MeetUp and picked up my own copy of the glossy flier that was much argued on DU last week.

Headline: "ONLY DEAN OPPOSED THE WAR FROM THE START"

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. That's Dean's problem...back pedaling and

flip-flopping. He'll never change. It's who he is...that's why he now has "handlers" like the chimp.

[stickdog]

19. Meanwhile, Clark skips the debates and doesn't even try to compete

in Iowa.

If Clark never says anything again, he should be just fine.

[blm]

2. He'll say anything to benefit ONE person - HIMSELF.

Truth doesn't not enter into the equation for Dean.

He wasn't even against the war. He was FOR a resolution that wasn't significantly different than the one that passed, and had no additional obstacle for use of force other than the step to send a letter of determination to the Speaker and Pres pro tem of the Senate.

The truth: Kucinich was the ONLY candidate out of all the lawmakers against the war from the beginning. He was even against the IWR and the Biden-Lugar bill, as most opponents of the war. Dean was FOR the B-L bill.

Braun and Sharpton were not Dem officeholders when the resolution passed.

[adadem]

13. Are you right on that one n/t

[MuseRider]

3. There is the big catch.

He gives Dennis his due when speaking and few are really listening but pamphlets everyone with the untruth. I bought his apology once but he has done it again so.... It has become very difficult for me. I feel so conflicted because I don't want to dislike him, he may be our guy and I do not want to be in that position but I just can't do it. If I felt any kind of stability with him I could but I just do not. Ahhh well, I will keep trying and try to quit entering threads that make me regret I ever went in.

[iowapeacechief]

4. Warning from "wound tight" Dean staffer

I had a second exchange with Dean yesterday, and I'm still figuring out how I feel about it. I keep hoping someone will come along with a recording so I can be a little less subjective as I replay it to myself.

What happened is that I called out to him as he was addressing about 300 people. And he answered me, and I answered back. And then a Dean staffer warned me against "shouting down" the candidate.

Context? Starting to talk about Iraq, he prefaced his own position with something like this: "Some people say we should just get out. Of course we can't just get out." (The words may have been slightly different.)

I was in the front of the room, stage left, about 15-20 feet away.

"Dennis doesn't say just get out!" I called.

Turning halfway toward me, he said, "I didn't say Dennis did say that. Other people say it."

"I know those people, and nobody says just get out," I answered.

As I say, I'd like to see the video, to get the words right, to reassess my perceptions of the dynamics.

Anyway, at the end of the show, amid a thick crush, I started to step toward Dean to raise my concern about "only" candidate opposing the war.

"Sir!"

A man was calling me. I turned and encountered a young man making his way toward me, a Dean campaign staffer, it turned out. At the same time, another man came up from my right and then stood close, watching while waiting his turn.

The following leaves out a lot, because we exchanged quite a few words. In the course of it, I mentioned having attended the Dean rally in Davenport in December. I can't repeat all our dialogue, but the part that sticks with me goes something like this:

Dean Guy: Remember who you represent, and think hard about how you come across. Congressman Kucinich is always very respectful.

Me: Yes, he is. Was I disrespectful?

Dean Guy: Yes, you keep interrupting Dr. Dean. It reflects badly on your cause. You should think about that.

Me: Did you hear what I said? How was that being disrespectful?

Dean Guy: You've tried to shout him down before.

Me: Me?! I've never, ever, anywhere spoken to him in front of a group before. Shouting him down? Me personally or Kucinich supporters collectively? What are you saying?

(I'd spoken with Dean one-on-one in April and October.)

Dean Guy: You did it at Davenport, and I'm warning you--

Me: You're WARNING me! Is that what you said?

Dean Guy: I am warning you. This is a private event, and I know the rules. We rented the hall--

The third man joined the conversation, and we argued together that the event was widely publicized as "open to the public." Turned out this man had asked Dean a question about NAFTA, was frustrated with the nuanced answer he got, and had come to me for information about Kucinich.

People were watching us. The staffer seemed agitated.

Me: Were you at Davenport? Did you see me there? I did not speak in any way there. I didn't see anyone shout at him.

Dean Guy: Maybe I'm mistaking you for someone else.

Maybe so. Maybe so... He cooled down a bit but continued to tell me I should raise my hand and wait for Dr. Dean to call on me, not just speak out in such a setting. (I grant him this, to a point.)

Finally I got my chance to speak with Dean (as reported at the top of the thread) as he was almost leaving. He stopped to pose for a photo with some folks, and I stood outside the frame and spoke toward his ear while he looked straight ahead and grinned for the camera. I said I hadn't meant to argue with him about Kucinich, but it really did seem to me that he was setting up a straw man to knock down by distinguishing himself from those who say just get out. I wanted to be sure the straw man wasn't Kucinich.

"Nobody says just get out, certainly not Dennis."

"And I didn't say Dennis does say it. But I meet people who do say that," he said.

"People want to hear an exit plan; they are looking for leadership," I said.

After the rest of our conversation, I congratulated our local Dean staffer on her great turnout. Then I told her about her colleague mistaking me for someone trying to "shout down" her doctor and "warning" me.

"Some of them are wound pretty tight," she said smiling.

Made me want to apologize for any of us who've ever been guilty of "shouting down" anyone.

[cryofan]

6. lol! good to hear you are taking it to Dean! --eom

[stickdog]

21. Yes. He's a real life version of your cyberpersona.

Might I suggest that actually working for your candidate rather than obsessing on another might make both of you appear more, shall we say, balanced?

[goodhue]

9. thanks for sharing this

sounds like an interesting experience

[DemBones DemBones]

11. VERY interesting encounters.

Dean seemed to be on auto-pilot at the Iowa speech last night, just saying his lines. Kerry and Edwards were great, Dennis started a bit slow but developed the passion as he went on.

Be sure to read what I just posted from the Des Moines Register!

[adadem]

14. My thoughts exactly. n/t

[ThirdWheelLegend]

12. hey its context! Dean wasn't referring to Kucinich

He was referring to the vague 'people'!

I am so glad he cleared that up, man if it wasn't for 'people' and 'major' I would think Dean was misleading for personal political gain!

TWL

[adadem]

15. Good for you

in standing up to those who would silence you. This is quite indicative of that campaign and the DDF (Dean Defense Force) as I like to term them. When I was still with that campaign I thought it was a good idea until I heard how it was going to be used in the primary. So glad I left when I did.

[stickdog]

20. Why do you follow Dean around to shout at him about Kucinich?

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from here.

Did you ever consider that actually working for Kucinich's campaign might be just a tad more helpful to his cause?

[iowapeacechief]

26. Not "following him around"!

If you read what I wrote, you'd know that. THAT's what the Dean guy accused me of, and it was completely bogus.

You do understand this happened in my own town? Where I DO work for Kucinich, and where I also work for Democrats and for peace candidates especially.

I'm trying to understand where YOU are coming from!

[stickdog]

29. I must have misinterpreted your post.

I was under the impression that you'd talked to Dean about this issue before.

Sorry.

[iowapeacechief]

32. Nope--apology accepted!

I'd met and spoken with Dean before, but not about the claim he was the only (or only major) war opponent.

[stickdog]

35. Thanks. And I salute you for working for your candidate!

He's a good man with a good plan.

[dpbrown]

5. If he doesn't destroy the lying flyers, what he says doesn't matter

Only Dennis acted in a pragmatic way against the buildup to the illegal invasion of Iraq.

Only Dennis was against the "war" back in February 2002 in his "Prayer for America" speech.

Only Dennis.

If the flyer lied, you must decide...

Kucinich.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[stickdog]

22. The flyers don't lie. DK is not a major candidate by any objective measure

It's distressing to see so many people with such disturbing and unbalanced responses to this admittedly tragic reality.

[dpbrown]

25. You wish, Dean turned the Democratic Party into a pathetic niche in VT

Kucinich just came in second in the first caucus in the nation in Santa Cruz.

The next time I read about some Dean supporter lording over this propaganda about Kucinich not being real or whatever the pathetic crack these dimwits are smoking, I'll just go right ahead and declare myself anybody but Dean and get it over with.

Dean lost Vermont.

No position Dean's ever held in elected office in Vermont is held by a Democrat.

Both the progressives and the Republicans did better in Dean's Vermont than the Democrats did.

Dean's never beaten an incumbent Republican.

Dean decided not to run for reelection because he knew he was going to get beaten by Douglas.

While Dean might beat Bush on the strength of the Bush-haters alone, it'll put one more, and maybe one of the last needed, nails in the coffin of the Democratic Party.

Dean's legacy in Vermont is destroying the Democratic Party and strengthening the progressive base and the Republicans.

That's his record.

Dean is a loser choice for Democrats.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[stickdog]

30. Dennis is polling at 11% in his home state.

What more can I say but good luck.

[Renew Deal]

7. He will say anything to win.

He once told a DUer he would accept matching funds after she asked him to. His campaign person (probably Gina) gave him a look. A few days later, no matching funds.

[Zomby Woof]

8. Best thread title of the month!

Welcome to DU, iowa! Fascinating and very telling firsthand account.


"Wound tightly"... oh yeah, sounds very familiar. :-)

[iowapeacechief]

10. Dean still "doing better"?

I must say how good it felt to see Dean applauding fellow candidates last night in Cedar Rapids. He looked genuinely appreciative of some their strongest lines, and that was very good to see.

I'm still waiting, however, for Dean to really praise Dennis for opposing the war early, courageously, and consistently. What would it cost him? Wouldn't it only help both of them?

By the way, I'm stilling seeing TV footage of the Muscatine event where I had my dialogue with Dean. It's the one where he's flipping pancakes.

[Zomby Woof]

17. He gave DK credit again in a clip on "This Week" this AM

But as you may find by looking around, I am one the biggest Dean critics on DU. I am hardcore in opposing his nomination, and think he will hurt the Democrats for at least 2 more elections. He just reeks of bad news and incompetency all around.

[stickdog]

23. Yeah, all those meetup records and fundraising records are surely a sign

of an incompetent organization.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

24. Polls and money make Teddy K. happy!

TWL

[Cheswick2.0]

16. what I get from your post

You went to a dean event to confront him about Kucinich and then you went to a meet-up where they had some old lit and you decided to post about it here.

I think you should stick with Dk. He seems to be your type.

[iowapeacechief]

27. Old lit?

It was being distributed at the meetup Wednesday. Has it been withdrawn?

No question I am "sticking with" DK, but the Dean people are eager to recruit me and have me commit to Dean as my second choice. That's why I was at the Dean events. That's why they invited me to their meetup.

I went "to confront him"? No, it's about trying to trust him and like him better.

If you understood the Iowa caucuses, you'd understand why the Dean people say I should join them when I see Kucinich won't be "viable" in my caucus.

[Cheswick2.0]

38. I have no interest in you converting

I can't speak for anyone who hasn't had the advantage of reading your post. Why not go with Kerry as your 2nd choice?

[stickdog]

18. Did you watch TV today? Because Dean mentioned DK by name

as being against the war.

Meanwhile, the flier you are talking about says "major candidates" when you get past the headline.

There's a rule of thumb in advertising which is: don't direct draw attention to a competing product. Dean wants to differentiate himself from Gep, Kerry, Lieberman and Clark on his consistent opposition to the Iraq War. If you were Dean's campaign manager, how would you suggest he do so?

[MuseRider]

28. Honesty,

integrity, I think if I were his manager I would suggest he look those words up and study a bit. Whoever is a "major" candidate is decided by the voters, NOT by Howard Dean.

[stickdog]

31. DK is currently polling 11% in his home state.

And I don't know of any other state where he's above 3%.

It's sad, but it's also reality.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...ics/7686648.htm

[MuseRider]

33. And that is not

a very well thought out reply since the topic was Dean. That was meant to insult me, not make a point. Do you have a point?

On Edit I am sorry, I was distracted and I was rude and incorrect, I see now why you responded that way. My bad.

[stickdog]

34. The topic is whether or not DK is a major candidate.

And I'm simply wondering which state you think he'll win delegates in other than perhaps Ohio.

[MuseRider]

36. I have no idea

I hope you read my edited response to you because I was not kind and I am sorry however I still take issue with you that it is no business of Howard Dean to decide anything about anyone. I do not think he is in any position to decide anything, he is RUNNING for the same job, not running the show. WE, the voters will decide, not Dean. Polls mean very little and I know that you know that. I'll be interested in seeing how you all feel about them when Dean starts to slip and if honesty and integrity still mean anything in this country, and I do have my doubts, he will slip.

[iowapeacechief]

37. If I were Dean's campaign manager...

...I'd be looking at the Iowa caucuses and hoping for either a) small but viable preference groups for Kucinich (denying his caucusers to anyone else) or b) "nonviable" kucitizens gravitating toward our Dean groups. Either of those would seem preferable to offending them.

I honestly do not understand how it costs either man to acknowledge the other as an ally vis-a-vis the war. Looks to me like they'd both gain. Then they could focus on differences going forward instead of claiming to have been "the only" war opponent in the past.

I don't care to rehash the headline-versus-body argument. I didn't buy the Team Dean explanations then, and still don't.