Question: Why should NINE straight people make decisions

[ruggerson]

that affect the lives of a group of people that are 5-7% of the population?

Only 2% of the country is Jewish, yet two Jews sit on the High Court.

We all know that some of the most contentious cases that will come before the court in the next few years involve gay and lesbian equality.

In a pluralistic society, does it not make sense that at least one of the Justices involved in these, in some instances, life and death decisions be a member of the very group that is affected by the decisions?

If only so that Scalia and Thomas and Alito are forced to deal with an equal, on a daily basis, from the group they so eagerly seek to oppress.

[jenmito]

1. Thomas is Black. Does that mean HE makes decisions representative of

the vast majority of Black people more than, say the Jewish Ginsberg? Do you get my point?

[ruggerson]

4. It means the white members have to deal with a black person every day in their job

while they are deciding affirmative action cases.

And yes I know Thomas votes against his own community's self interests, but he is an extraordinary exception to the rule.

There is something profoundly bizarre, for example, about nine men making life and death decisions about a woman's access to abortion. Women are more than half of the country. They should occupy at the very least four or five seats on the USSC.

[niceypoo]

8. Thomas automatically votes with Scalia on everything

EOM

[jenmito]

I'm sure the conservative white members are THRILLED to be dealing with him

as he votes with them. It's on the inside that counts. I'm sure there are many heterosexual potential SC judges in this country that are as strongly pro-gay rights as gay potential SC judges.

[Number23]

80. Very nicely said, jenmito

[jenmito]

109. Thanks, #23.

:hi:

[Political Tiger]

16. Clarence Thomas is black? n/t

[Baby Snooks]

93. Only when he looks in the mirror...

Which he rarely does.

[TreasonousBastard]

25. Don't forget It was a majority of the nine men who decreed...

outlawing abortion to be unconstitutional. The makeup of the Court will never fully reflect the diversity of the country, but it can still provide justice. Sometimes.

(I preferred the days when the white members of the Court had to look at Thurgood Marshall.)

[ruggerson]

36. agreed

but we can always aspire to a higher goal of a more diverse court.

[dem629]

2. Why should sexual preference matter?

[ruggerson]

7. Do you mean sexual orientation?

It matters in the same way that being a woman or a hispanic or a black nominee matters.

[dem629]

13. No I meant what I wrote.

I'm more interested in views than skin color, gender, sexual preference, age, etc.

[ruggerson]

19. What is "sexual preference"

I don't understand what that means. It implies choice, so it has nothing to do with the subject we are discussing.

[dem629]

53. Oh, a language purification discussion.

How quaint.

Back to the question I raised about the topic you started, why should it matter?

Are you suggesting that only white males can represent white males, only black women can represent black women, only Protestants can represent Protestants?

Are you under the impression that there's such a thing as "representation" in the analysis of Constitutional law at all?

And if we're going to do this by percentages (as I've heard some suggest) what do we do when we're under 1/9th of a person, since there are only 9 justices?

Answers?

[ruggerson]

64. Actually

I'm not suggesting that ONLY gay justices can decide issues pertinent to gay people.

I'm suggesting that it's a bit unbalanced that ONLY straight justices do.

And I"m not suggesting they will necessarily make the wrong decision either.

What I'm suggesting is that as long as there is a clamor for a woman and a Latina, why not a similar clamor for a lesbian?

The justice system in America is supposed to be where the average person can go to get redress for wrongs, including wrongs perpetuated by the government. To make the highest Court in the land a bit less male and a bit less white and a bit less straight should not be such a controversial idea. We have many more-than-qualified individuals who would fit the bill.

[dem629]

66. The only clamor should be for the most qualified nominee that can be found.

And that has to do with the person's knowledge of the law and the Constitution, and how to objectively apply it.

[ruggerson]

68. "the highest quality nominee"

is completely subjective. The President is capable of finding the "highest quality nominee" while also paying attention to their life stories. Historically, there always are a whole host of considerations going into the selection of a USSC nominee, including race, gender, geographical balance, life stories, etc.

[dem629]

69. It's not all subjective.

Most of it is pretty objective, in terms of experience and performance on the bench.

But some of it is subjective, especially judging which person's "life story" (which has nothing to do with the objective application of constitutional law) is better.

[ruggerson]

71. Hence, the OP

n/t

[dem629]

72. Then we agree it shouldn't matter?

I don't follow your response.

[ruggerson]

77. if we agree that life stories

and other considerations go into the selection process (along with qualifications) then it's not that tough to find a superbly qualified lesbian. I don't see much objection to the notion of finding a superbly qualified woman or latina. It's only sexual orientation that seems to raise such ire.

[dem629]

83. I don't agree that "life stories" should be factored in.

This isn't an Oprah awards ceremony.

[ruggerson]

90. but they do

you're denying reality. Many factors go into the decision. It isn't some computer program that spits out "best qualified." The decision is made by a subjective human being(s).

[Two Americas]

82. answers

First, the difference between "preference" and "orientation" is vast and the use of the word "preference" is not neutral. We are talking about people's identities, not behavior. This is important because it is a common and age-old excuse for mistreatment and oppression to characterize it as the fault of the victim, something they "chose" or related to their behavior. We never want to be justifying oppression and inequality.

As to your question - why should it matter? Exactly. Why must we select only heteros?

This is another conservative talking point - that diversity in hiring and selection is a matter of picking people ONLY because of their ethnicity, or in this case orientation. In fact, the opposite is true. By broadening the search we increase the amount of talent available, we are not choosing diversity over talent. Also, groups that have been left behind - logically and obviously - include more available talent per capital then those from the dominant social group, who do not need to work as hard, are not held to as high a standard, and have fewer opportunities.

So yes! by all means. Let's go for the best possible talent, regardless of race, ethnicity, gender or orientation rather than restricting ourselves to fishing first in the same old over-fished pond for the pampered, fat and lazy fish - white heterosexual males.


...

[dem629]

84. It's not that they should all be heterosexuals.

It's that it doesn't matter, and shouldn't be taken into account.

I'm not sure I would characterize anyone on the Supreme Court as lazy, though. Which ones are you talking about?

As for fat and pampered, that just sounds like lashing out, so I don't have a rebuttal to that.

[Two Americas]

87. great

But they are, for the most part. (By "they" I mean those holding most of the power and wealth in the country.)

My fat and lazy was part of the fishing pond analogy - fat and lazy fish, as compared to fish that had to struggle, that had to swim against the current.

When people in one group do not need to work as hard or do as well as those in another group to reach the same levels - and anyone denying that this is the case is denying racism, sexism, and bigotry - it is completely reasonable to assume that they are not as strong, and I think that is the case.

It is not a matter of "taking it into account" it is rather a recognition that race, gender and orientation are already taken into consideration - of course. That is what racism and bigotry and sexism are all about. Saying we should not take it into account means ignore the existing imbalance and inequality. That perpetuates the existing imbalance and inequality.

I do not understand this very odd thing, a feature of modern liberalism: people claim to support gay rights, gender equality, and say they are opposed to bigotry but then deny inequality and imbalances in their arguments. Which is it? Where do they really stand? Hard to tell. I think many stand on the side of privilege and bigotry, but know that this is socially unacceptable and incompatible with their self-images as "enlightened" and "progressive" individuals.

So we hear people say "don't get me wrong, I support (insert progressive cause) BUT (insert right wing or bigoted argument) so don't you dare call me a (insert label.)

It is a wonder people can think clearly about anything with those contradictions rattling around in their heads.



...

[stevenleser]

182. Please don't call being gay "Sexual Preference"

I'm hetero, I don't "Prefer" women. That is to whom I am attracted. That is who I AM. There is no preference involved.

The connotation is, as ruggerson said "choice". You can discriminate based on a person's choices. You cannot discriminate based on who someone IS. That is why Rethuglicans who want to discriminate against gays always call it "Sexual Preference" and those who are in favor of equal rights for the GLBT community call it "Sexual Orientation".

If you want to be identified as someone who likes the idea of discriminating against the GLBT community, by all means, continue with how you are phrasing what we are talking about.

[hulklogan]

31. My sexual preference is to do it with the lights off.

What does that have to do with sexual orientation?

[cherokeeprogressive]

34. Not me, I like to watch. n/t

[Bucky]

194. Not me you don't

Dood, it would blow your mind

[dem629]

55. Why? Are you ugly or is the other person?

[musicblind]

175. Wow, what a pathetic low blow. You have yet to correct your mis-statement and yet you take low blows

at other people for no reason.

[farmboy]

179. This post reveals the truth about you even more clearly than all the rest. Sad.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

3. I just hope that whoever is chosen is for GLBT rights.

I'd love to have a Latino lesbian though!

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ruggerson]

10. You're equating gay people with clowns?

un fucking believable.

[cali]

42. what the fuck?

you're equating nominating a gay person to the SC with being a clown. That's disgusting. take your homophobia and just go away.

[Sebastian Doyle]

52. They did that on December 12, 2000 when they posed for this picture

...right before they took a huge shit on the Constitution and gave us an unelected piece of shit moron.

[Two Americas]

91. strange

That is truly strange that this idea would come into a person's mind on this subject.

[fishwax]

96. huh?

:wtf:

[Forkboy]

102. Alrighty then.

[ruggerson]

119. lol

:hi:

[Forkboy]

133. Hey, why aren't you wearing your shoes?

:evilgrin:

:hi:

[ruggerson]

168. too busy getting the new ride

[NJmaverick]

6. How many Hispanics, Muslims, Arabs, Persians, Hindus, Asians, Wiccans or Transsexuals are on the SC?

I have little use for identity politics or the illogic that it represents.

[cherokeeprogressive]

17. You just named EIGHT different groups and totally neglected Native Americans.

Being forced onto reservations back in the day, Native Americans are the forgotten bunch. Out o' sight, out o' mind, I guess. Gay white people screaming about being represented, and fuck the natives. Cool. Shit never changes.

[NJmaverick]

24. Yup that's the problem with identity politics. The fundamental flaws just lend themselves to every

conceivable stance and outrage. Ultimately the person selected should be judged by how fairly they treat all people, not by the color of their skin, their heritage, their religion, the sexual orientation or their gender.

[cherokeeprogressive]

33. I agree 100%. And, as long as a Native American is selected, I'm down. n/t

[ruggerson]

39. "Identity politics" is a rightwing buzz phrase meant to belittle the idea of diversity

Diversity is something we value in this country. It should be prized, not disparaged.

[NJmaverick]

40. No identity politics is a bad idea that enforces bigotry

and intolerance. Nothing good can come from the idea that belonging to an arbitrary group is more important than the nature of the individual.

[Two Americas]

89. funny

You are making the opposite argument from the one you think you are making.

Yes!!!

Belonging to an arbitrary group should not be more important than the nature of the individual.

Absolutely.

Now, where is that a problem....hmmmm...could it be happening anywhere? ... let me think....what group has benefited from privilege and disproportionate access to power and resources ... because we would not want that! Can you think of any group that gets this sort of advantage?

Right?


...

[stillcool]

100. They don't 'get' an advantage..

'we the people' gladly hand it over. All we can be bothered doing is voting, and then we expect those three individuals that represent us to automatically do the right thing, with zero participation from the people they supposedly work for. It's kind of sad that after the last 8 years there is still no cohesive group willing to act for 'change'. I guess the spectator sport of politics is all that matters.

[Two Americas]

104. interesting

Good points.

I don't blame the general public, though. I blame us.

[NJmaverick]

125. You appear not to understand what the word arbitrary means

beyond that you seem to prefer to prejudge people by those arbitrary groupings. Personally I think that is the antithesis of the core liberal values.

[Two Americas]

142. lol

I have no idea where you got that.

[NJmaverick]

147. I got that from your rather telling comments, to my posts

When you attack me for wanting people to be judged on their deeds, words and character.

[Two Americas]

151. that is not the issue

Here is what I am saying:

The idea that we either go for diversity or we select the best candidate is a false choice.

I have successfully supported and defended that assertion, and you have yet to rebut it or even address it.

You may disagree with me about this, but what you are doing is misrepresenting what I said. I have not attacked you "for wanting people to be judged on their deeds, words and character."


...

[NJmaverick]

152. This issue at hand is one of identity poltiics . The choice of person vs group membership

Now as for your assertion:

"The idea that we either go for diversity or we select the best candidate is a false choice. I have successfully supported and defended that assertion, and you have yet to rebut it or even address it."

I guess there is always the option of declaring yourself the winner of a debate, rather than actually debating and winning. Still you are creating a strawman argument. I am saying best qualified is the way to go. Now I never said such a choice will not increase the diversity of arbitrary subsets. I just don't think that should play a role in the selection process.

[Two Americas]

154. yes

We agree about "best qualified." I say that an affirmative action approach best achieves that goal. You call that identity politics and that it should not play a role in the selection process.

I am not trying to win the debate with you so much as I am trying to clarify the two positions.

In what way is my argument a straw man argument? I freely admit to struggling to understand what you are actually saying - it is not very clear, in my opinion. But if I have misunderstood your argument, and so misrepresented it, I would like to rectify that. I have no motive to intentionally misrepresent your argument for the purpose of knocking it down. You can't know that, but I welcome you to test it.


...

[Joe the Revelator]

116. This isn't true at all Ruggerson

Identity Politics is something that is flawed and should be unacceptable at any time.

[Flying Dream Blues]

192. Exactly. RW talking point! nt

[Bluenorthwest]

57. All due respect,

but why do you assume all gay people are white? You are incorrect in your assumption.

[NJmaverick]

127. That's my point, these are ARBITRARY groupings and people belong to many groups

so it's flawed thinking to engage in indentity politics. Thank you for making my point for me.

[elshiva]

105. Huh? Are you joking about genocide?

:shrug: Yes and all Native Americans are straight. Gays want an equal chance at something and it's considered "screaming."

[cherokeeprogressive]

121. I apologize unconditionally for my muddled message. In my defense though, I never implied that all

Native Americans were straight. I would be MORE than happy to support a gay Native American for a gig with the Supremes.

"Screaming" was the worst word I could have used to try to make the point that it seems to me Native American isn't considered a qualification for a seat, but gay and female are, and for that I am sorry.

If any one group deserves to be represented by having a member occupying a seat on the Supreme Court, it would be Native Americans in my opinion, gay or not. I stand by that opinion.

Having ancestors who were forced to march along the "Trail of Tears", I would never joke about genocide.

[ruggerson]

106. there are no gay native americans?

and who's screaming?

[cherokeeprogressive]

123. There most certainly are. I never implied that there weren't. I wasn't trying to put anyone down.

I did what I usually do; I posted my thoughts without thinking them through. I apologize for that. I apologize to everyone I've offended, unconditionally. I posted from a narrow view, and offended fellow DU'ers by not thinking through what I was posting. I apologize.

Gay or Straight, Native Americans have been treated worse on this continent than any group I can think of since the arrival of whites from Europe. I'm going to go so far as to say that I think they've been treated FAR worse than gays and lesbians. Back in the day, gay could be hidden. Being Native American couldn't. Native Americans were killed on sight, and sometimes hunted for sport. I'd even venture a guess that there have been instances where gay Europeans killed Native Americans just to avoid having their "manhood" questioned. "Go along to get along", as it were.

Native Americans have suffered worse treatment on this continent than African slaves. Doubt that? Native Americans were being hunted while African slaves were being housed and fed. Native Americans were LOWER than African slaves. Sell an African and kill an Indian. Africans were considered and treated like beasts of burden, and Native Americans were considered and treated like pests worthy of nothing more than extermination.

Google "Manifest Destiny" and "Indian Removal". It was the stated policy of the United States government to allow Native Americans to live east of the Mississippi River ONLY if they had assimilated into the white European culture of the moment. Proper clothing. Christianity. European values and practices. All forced on a group of people because they weren't as tall, weren't as light skinned, and didn't read the language.

Google "Gay Removal" as a policy of the United States government. Crickets?

I'd love to see a Native American nominated for a seat on the Supreme Court. My grandfather (a fullblood Cherokee Indian whose father has a number on the Dawes Rolls may he RIP) was actually named after a Supreme Court justice: John Catron.

I don't give a fuck whether the next Supreme Court appointee is Gay, Lesbian, or Straight. I'd just like to see that person be someone whose ancestry is rooted and documented to be of Native American heritage. We got fucked. Time to fuck back.

[ruggerson]

171. I'm down with that

it would please me if we'd get a two-fer or a three-fer this time around.

[Jamastiene]

108. Well, I'm a gay Native American who wants equal rights.

For the record, if our elders had learned at some point, after being screwed time and time again, to stop signing phony treaties with the White Man, Native Americans wouldn't be shoved off to tiny little strips of land in a couple out of the way places.

Poor leadership is NEVER a good excuse for bigotry and misrepresentation. Quit trying to pretend there are no gay Native Americans. We are out here and some of us disagree totally with your skewed assessment. :thumbsdown:

[cherokeeprogressive]

124. "a couple of out of the way places"? Is that all you see when you contrast how Native Americans

have been treated as opposed to gays? Are you saying that my "elders" were stupid to the point that they actually believed the lies they were told by white Europeans? They recognized early on that they were out-teched, out-numbered, and out-supplied. They did what they could to delay the inevitable.

"A couple"?

I didn't pretend ANYTHING in the context of gay Native Americans. I'm glad you're out there. I knew you were, in fact. In my post, I never implied that there were no gay Native Americans.

So you're gay, and claim to be Native American. Maybe you're a Native American who claims to be gay. Either way, where are your posts that gay Native Americans should be included in the pool of possible Supreme Court candidates? Or Native Americans, gay OR straight?

[Two Americas]

115. so malicious

"Gay white people screaming?" How do you know that? It is not the case, FYI. Not all of those arguing for diversity are white, not all are gay, and not all who are gay are white. Some are Native American. Now whom are you going to express hatred toward? I am not sure that there is even one person whom you attack that fits your criteria - gay, white, and screaming.

What possible value can come from this transparent and heavy-handed attempt at setting one group against another? Why would you want to do that? Why are you talking about poc the same way bigoted whites do - as a discrete, homogeneous, "special interest" group? Why are you assuming that "gay" equals "white" equals "screaming?"

Very strange post.


...

[Two Americas]

86. identity politics

Identities are assigned to all people in arbitrarily defined groups that are other than the dominant group, by the dominant group. People do not choose that.

You are advancing the argument of the bigots and right wingers here. There is nothing more illogical than that line of reasoning. I have little use for it.


...

[NJmaverick]

128. Nice try, but you are the one championing bigotry by insisting arbitrary groups

are more important than the nature of the person. It's a shame you lack that core liberal value, that people should judged by their words and actions not by the color of the skin, their religion, their heritage, sexual orientation or gender. You would think after claiming to know all the harm bigotry has caused, you wouldn't be one of its champions.

[sniffa]

169. Do you who said that the other day?

Rush Limbaugh.

[sundog]

172. why am i not surprised?

[dsc]

9. Gee what a difference in the amount of respect an argument gets here if if is gays vs other

minorities. For the record I think a woman should be chosen but I think it is very telling that selecting a woman is viewed as a positive by so many while naming a gay gets compared to having the court dress like clowns.

[ruggerson]

11. It's unbelievable

from "liberals" no less

[jenmito]

14. From ONE poster. n/t

[Two Americas]

94. sadly

Sadly, it is not merely one poster expressing these sentiments here. Turn it around, though - how many come to the defense of the GLBTQ community when these attacks happen? Very, very few.

[cali]

15. really? people here are comparing having a gay person on the court

to having the court dress like clowns? Where did you pull that from?

[dsc]

20. reading post number 5 in this very thread

it is in black and white.

[ruggerson]

21. see post #5

[Jamastiene]

110. I think post #5 answers that question quite handily.

Look at it and then ask your question again, if you need to. :hi:

[NJmaverick]

18. It's not the group, it's the concept that only a member of a particular arbitrary subset

should make the decisions. That is what has caused this OP to receive poor replies.

[ruggerson]

27. Disagree

When it is suggested that a woman or a Latino sit on the High Court, there is not the same venom.

We were all extremely happy to finally elect a black President. There wasn't much disagreement there, as a matter of fact the vast majority of DU saw it as reason to rejoice and celebrate. An occasion of historic magnitude.

[NJmaverick]

30. I have not seen a post with the same claim that ONLY (fill in the blank) should be making decisions

for (fill in the blank). Can you post a link to another thread, with that same concept, with the (fill in the blank) groups you are referring to?

[dsc]

32. actually that is the opposite of what the OP said

the OP says that not only straight people should be making decisions affecting gay people, and yes I have seen exactly what you have falsely stated the OP to have said, advocated here in regards to abortions. So you did a two fer. You baldly distorted what the OP said and then distorted the fact that posts doing what you complained about actually do exist.

[NJmaverick]

43. ahhh no, you are wrong

the OP made the point that one arbitrary group was making decisions for another abitrary group and that he felt that was wrong.


To be honest what you said doesn't match what was written.

[dsc]

75. He is advocating that the court have both straights and gays

in most places that isn't just one group.

[ruggerson]

35. Can you point to the language in the OP where I said "ONLY"

blank group should be making decisions about (fill in the blank)?

The OP is making a point that the USSC makes decisions that affect a wide variety of groups in our country. It would be far more representative if the Court looked a bit more like the population it serves.

[NJmaverick]

44. Semantics, you are still making the under lying point that one arbitrary group

should not be allowed to make choices for another arbitrary group.

[ruggerson]

65. Again

I never said anyone "should not be allowed" to make decisions. You are having a discussion with some fictional poster, apparently, who you accuse of writing things that you make up

To distill the OP: there is nothing wrong with making the court a little less straight, white and male, all the while finding a superbly qualified candidate.

What's interesting to me is that the multiple threads supporting the idea of a woman or an hispanic for the seat raised nowhere near the ire this thread did.

Gee, I wonder why.

[Jamastiene]

112. No

The case that was made was that we are a diverse country with all types of people and the SCOTUS should reflect that. It doesn't say what you are trying to imply.

Nobody is saying that the SCOTUS should segregate itself on a case by case basis. You are taking a quote about diversity and twisting it to an extreme segregationist idea. You're doing it wrong. Twisting someone's words doesn't make what you are saying fact. It just means you can't seem to understand what diversity truly is.

[NJmaverick]

126. Sorry that spin does not properly describe- "Why should NINE straight people make decisions"

[ruggerson]

138. It's fascinating that this has provoked such a visceral response from you

that you resort to continuously twisting my words. Did you get equally upset by Hekate's OP that the appointment should go to a woman? It's been on the front page of GD/P for the last two days and it looks like you didn't even respond to it.

Hmmmmm.

[NJmaverick]

146. that is pathetic and shameful strawman argument. My response has been logical

and based on the highest ideals every liberal should strive for. I think what is more telling has been your reactions.

[ruggerson]

148. the highest ideals that liberals should strive for

are equality, freedom and justice.

Unfortunately, the road to equality is often paved with taking into account "arbitrary groups" (as you labelled them) along with other equally important criteria.

By your words, I assume you are firmly opposed to affirmative action. No?

[NJmaverick]

149. ABSOLUTELY NOT! Equality is achieved when people are judged by their

deeds, character and actions. That is the only way true equality is achieved. Identity based poltics only serves to strengthen and ensured continued bigotry and prejudice. Only when groupings become meaningless will we see the sort of true equality every liberal should be striving for.

As for affirmative action, that's topic for another discussion and would only muddy the waters, as it were.

[ruggerson]

150. I think you're putting the cart before the horse

when historically disadvantaged groups are legally discriminated against, there is no level playing field to yield the results you advocate.

And why are you not willing to tell us your views on affirmative action, since it is very germaine to this discussion?

(btw, I support the concept of affirmative action, as I believe it is needed in certain instances to balance out institutional discrimination and historical disadvantages.)

[NJmaverick]

153. It's been my observation that two wrongs don't make a right

That's why I don't support torture. I try to stand by the ideals of true equality. The momement I give in to ethical short cuts, I start to go down a slippery slope.

[Two Americas]

155. self-defense is not wrong

You argument equates the actions of the aggressors with efforts to resist that aggression. This argument is not new, and has been used throughout history to defend the status quo against all progressive movements.

We would not lecture a person who is being assaulted that they should not defend themselves by saying "two wrongs do not make a right."

But perhaps you do not see diversity and affirmative action approaches as the moral equivalent of self-defense. Perhaps you do not see racism, sexism, and bigotry as the moral equivalent of an assault.


...

[NJmaverick]

156. What I see and have observed is that by prejudging people by the

race, skin color, heritage, religion, gender or sexual orientation you are doing things wrong. I find it a false assertion that one can discriminate against others in a positive manner. Your self defense analogy is an extremely inappropriate one. What we are talking about is should Obama pass over qualified individuals just because they belong or don't belong to specific arbitrary groupinsg. The idea of doing so is not only ethically wrong, it would prove damaging to our nation as a whole.

[Two Americas]

160. understood

We disagree. All I am doing is trying to get some clarity about where we disagree.

I say that an affirmative action approach is not "prejudging people by the race, skin color, heritage, religion, gender or sexual orientation," rather I think it is a recognition of and response to an existing condition, that people are already being prejudged by race, skin color, heritage, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

What say you? Agree, or disagree?


...

[NJmaverick]

161. I agree that we disagree. I would also speculate that neither of us are likely to change our

opinions

[Two Americas]

164. true

I am posting so that the point of view I am expressing can be read by the others here, not in hopes of changing your mind.

So are you saying that you do not agree with my position - that affirmative actions approaches are not a matter of electing people according to their group, but rather recognizing and responding to the existing conditions - that people are already being selected on that basis?


...

[NJmaverick]

166. Before I can properly answer. You need to clarify this comment

"but rather recognizing and responding to the existing conditions" How does one exactly recognize and respond?

[Two Americas]

174. end of discussion, sadly

I appreciate you reading and responding to my posts. I think it is a valuable discussion, but it will have to go on somewhere else.

See you down the road.

[NJmaverick]

177. I suspected that would end the discussion

after all, the devil is in the detail. Well into our next discussion...

[Two Americas]

181. that is not it

No, that is not why the discussions here are over. I suspect you know that, though.

[NJmaverick]

183. You preferred vague comments that allowed your position to look better than it really is

when I pressed for details, you suddenly didn't want to talk

[Two Americas]

186. sure

The people here who want to believe that, will.

I would love to talk. You know that. We can't. You know that, too, and you know why.


...

[muffin1]

22. I'm with you. I find it thoroughly disgusting.

It's as though it's somehow different to these buffoons. Discrimination is discrimination, period.

[polmaven]

41. For the record...

Women are not "minority". We are 51+% of the population.

[Runcible Spoon]

51. "minority" means underrepresented in the power structure of our institutions.

Has nothing to do with actual population proportions.

[democrattotheend]

129. I don't think anyone here opposes the idea of a gay SCOTUS justice

If a gay person is the best person for the job I think most people here would view that person being gay as a bonus.

I don't think Obama should start out the search limiting his choices to any minority group. I don't think he should (or will) say "find me someone who's gay" or "find me someone who's Hispanic". But I think that once he has a pool of candidates he should and will take diversity on the court into account, and give special consideration to anyone who comes from a group not currently represented or underrepresented on the Court, whether that's Hispanics, gays, Native Americans, Muslims, women, etc. But I don't think he should start out looking specifically for a gay justice or a Hispanic justice or a woman, if that makes sense.

[ruggerson]

134. but it's clear they're looking for a woman

if what we read and see is to be believed. Which I think is great. The next three appointments should all be women.

"Best qualified" is very subjective.

[tekisui]

187. Indeed.

That is why I would like to see a Latina Lesbian appointed.:hi:

[whistler162]

12. Okay so you want a litmus test of any new

Supreme Court nominee!

[spooky3]

23. Atheists are 11% or more of the population and aren't represented; women 51% but only 11% of the

court.

These things should change.

[ruggerson]

28. Agreed

the next three appointments should all be women.

[dem629]

70. What about native American?

Or physically or psychologically disabled?

You see the road you go down when you start factoring in things that have nothing to do with the application of constitutional law?

[spooky3]

81. Are you aware of (a) the proportion of qualified applicants who are female, etc.?

and (b) the anti-discrimination laws in this country?

Please see the other threads that explain that it is not only perfectly appropriate to consider membership in an underrepresented class when judging between two or more candidates with substantially similar qualifications - in many instances, employers have this consideration built into their own affirmative action plans, as long as the underrepresentation continues. You might want to bone up on these laws.

[dem629]

85. Are you saying laws have been broken when selecting nominees?

Who broke them?

[totodeinhere]

117. He needs to nominate a lesbian hispanic atheist to the court. n/t

[stray cat]

26. We need more ignorant people on the court to represent ignorant people

there are not enough people on the supreme court without much education or who are willfully ignorant - because that would be a more accurate representation of the population.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Two Americas]

88. ouch

You are sooooo bad lol.

[QC]

130. Notice how the post equating gayness with ignorance is still there

while the post pointing out that foolishness was deleted.

Typical of how this place works.

[namahage]

136. No, yours was deleted because you said something along the lines of

"Then they should pick you, if they need ignorant people." Ad hominem.

The post you replied to may be a strawman--stating that more LGBT representation might be good does not mean that more representation by idiots is equally good--but it does not "equate" gayness with ignorance.

[QC]

140. It's more than a straw man. It directly equates the notion of gay representation

on the court with idiot representation on the court.

At the very least it is clumsily and offensively written, and every bit as bad as the clown bit that was deleted.

When you have been around here a while you will learn that there are some very bigoted people in this community who have learned to state their prejudices just slyly enough to stay within the rules.

You will also learn, when you have been around here for a while, that diversity suddenly becomes a highly controversial issue when the queers get involved. Then all of a sudden right wing tropes like "identity politics" and "choose the most qualified" pop up like mushrooms after a rainstorm. Interesting, isn't it?

[namahage]

139. I thought you once said that you would "defend anyone here from ad hominem attacks."

You're certainly quick to (rightfully) decry them when levelled against Obama critics.

Yet against some people, ad hominem attacks warrant little more than an "LOL."

[Two Americas]

143. thanks

Yeah my bad.

[namahage]

144. Your reputation as a "gentleman poster" is well-deserved.

Which made it strange to see that response.
Yet you've shown that people can disagree and admit mistake civilly.
Respect.
:fistbump:

[Political Tiger]

29. What if it was a conservative gay person?

I care less about the sexual orientation of the person than I do about the ideology of the person.

With that said, it would be cool to have a gay man or woman sit on the Supreme Court!

[CTyankee]

37. Haven't we HAD a gay person on the Supreme Court already? nt

[Baby Snooks]

48. Shhhhhhhhhhhh...

That's a secret.

[goclark]

49. I thought we have one now

:shrug:

[Sebastian Doyle]

54. Well, now that's a whole other issue.

Since conservatives want to eliminate gays from existence, a "gay conservative" would be a living example of someone with very poor judgment, and thus, a bad candidate for the Supreme Court.

[Blackhatjack]

38. Representational Democracy does not always work in regard to the SCOTUS...

You don't have to be black to understand that 'separate but equal' school systems was unconstitutional.

You don't have to be female to understand denying women the right to vote is unconstitutional.

In both cases white males on the SCOTUS overturned the prevailing opinions as unconstitutional.

You also don't have to have 8 of 9 Justices on the SCOTUS be white to correspond to the population makeup where there are extraordinary minorities that could do a better job.

Every justice on the SCOTUS brings their experiences to the bench, but making the right decisions once there has little to do with their race or sex.

[Unsane]

45. Souter probably *is* gay FWIW

[BlooInBloo]

46. Yah, but there's only one opening, and about 6 groups making the same claim...

Unless Obama gets incredibly lucky and finds a qualified candidate who is gay, 1/2 native american, 1/2 hispanic, female, and maybe a couple of other things, someone's certain to be disappointed.

[ruggerson]

60. Well hopefully he'll have at least three appointments

if not more.

[Optical.Catalyst]

47. Let's push for President Obama to nominate Barney Frank to the Supreme Court

[Sebastian Doyle]

56. Nah, he's too old.

We need people on the Supreme Court who will be around longer than Opie Roberts.

[Teaser]

50. who says they're straight?

.

[Bluenorthwest]

58. They do.

[Teaser]

92. Who'd they say it to?

not to me...

[Bluenorthwest]

165. Like read their bios,

I mean Roberts made an utter display out of his wife and children when he was sworn in. I assume that none of the Supremes have ever said anything do you, but I wonder if you have asked them if they straight?
They all identify as straight people, all of them.

[Arugula Latte]

59. Agree.

Also, why should 8 men and ONE women make decisions for 50+ percent of the population?

I'm sick of the imbalance.

[Honeycombe8]

61. Why do you think they're all straight? nt

[SoCalDem]

62. Because our country has "decided' to make laws about things

that should probably be left to the individuals to decide..:(... (things that are personal and private)

Every "law" ultimately "infringes" upon someone's rights & privileges.

Things that do not maim or harm the masses indiscriminately, should not be legislated..but once they are, the "other side" always pushes back..

[cwcwmack]

63. hey as long as the nominee is sharp as a tack

and knowledgeable about the constitution... I don't care about their color, orientation, whatever...

[tblue37]

67. Well, many believe that Souter is gay anyway, and if he is, then that representation was there.

But even if he is straight, he and the other liberals on the SC were not unwilling to guard gay rights.

[Duer 157099]

73. Perhaps Darth Cheney's daughter is available for the gig?

But I'm guessing, hoping, that you wouldn't really want her on the SC.

While I think it'd be great to have a gay person on the SC, if only to annoy those other justices, I don't think that it's critical. Obviously there are huge numbers of GLBT-rights supporters who themselves are neither G,L,B or T.

[Dark]

74. The problem with proportional representation is there are so many groups.

Not to mention, someone should be chosen based on their credentials, knowledge and wisdom.

This is an extremely important position for this country. The only requirement for me is that they know the law, and understand that the constitution was designed to be flexible for a reason.

[elleng]

76. WHY, you ask?

Because there is no law requiring members of the Court must reflect the diversity of the population, in ANY or EVERY attribute.

[ruggerson]

78. I realize that

so why not just have straight, white male protestants going forward? There are many that are superbly qualified and they are the easiest to find, since there are so many of them.

[hulklogan]

98. How do you know there isn't already a straight white male protestant on the Supreme Court?

Hennngh?

[ruggerson]

99. Why should their "preference" matter anyway?

[shimmergal]

122. Well, there are already

four supposedly straight, white male Catholics on the Court, and one ditto black male Catholic, so I think the Protestant label has already lost its majority status.

[rockymountaindem]

95. Who's the other Jew besides Ginsburg?

I keep trying to figure that out. I'd heard it was Souter, but I looked around and he's not on any of those websites which keep track of famous Jews.

[tritsofme]

97. Stephen Breyer is also Jewish. nt

[PurityOfEssence]

101. Statistically, there should be at least one non-believer

Fat chance for that, though.

[hulklogan]

103. How do you know there isn't already a non-believer on the Court?

Huh?

[PurityOfEssence]

107. Fair enough; let me add "public" or "professed" to the noun

ALL of them have professed belief.

Yes, I failed to phrase this in a foolproof way, but the intent was that declared belief was also important. If there IS a non-believer there (or more) then he/she/they is/are closeted in a BIG, BIG way.

This is an accepted or even REQUIRED bigotry in this country, and it needs to change.

[ruggerson]

141. I think he was being facetious

[Jamastiene]

111. I want to thank you for trying to have this conversation, ruggerson.

It's a good conversation to have and I couldn't agree with you more. :thumbsup:

[ruggerson]

118. thank you Jama

for trying to open a few eyes that are vehemently determined not to see.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[girl_interrupted]

114. The Only Solution for all, is the appointment of a Liberal to the SC

As much as I would like to see a woman appointed, because I feel women have been overlooked for this position far too long, this discussion opened my mind to quite a few other groups who have been overlooked. The only way I can see all of these people represented, is if we have a Liberal. In that way we can be sure everyone will get a fair shot.

I know President Obama speaks a lot about bipartisinship...but this is not the time to appease Republicans. This appointment is far too important to make nice with them. Obama maybe elected again & he may not, so this is one time only opportunity. We need fair and equal representation on the Court & the only way we will ever get that is with a Liberal.

[Two Americas]

120. overlooking groups

It is not so much a matter of overlooking groups, nor a matter of nominating a person merely because they are from a group.

The problem is that talent is too often overlooked. Racism and sexism and bigotry deprive all of us of an immense talent pool, and of the services of those who had to fight the hardest and swim upstream to get to the same level. We need to be cautious about statements that suggest that diversity means less talent, or a favor to "them."

We should not promote the idea that we can have either diversity OR the most talented people. The more people we include for consideration, the more talent becomes available. Since people who are not from the dominant group are held to higher standards and need to work harder to get the same recognition, and since they are under-employed when compared to those in the dominant social group, we should - and do - find more talent and better talent among women and people of color and GLBTQ people. White hetero makes have more opportunities and an easier path to success.

Diversity means more quality and better talent.

Making the safe choices - from the dominate group - means less quality and less talent.


...

[hulklogan]

132. Even liberals still have issues with diversity when it comes to LGBT Americans

If some of the posters on DU are examples of liberals.

[QC]

137. Most people here are about as liberal as my Aunt Ethel. n/t

[jonnyblitz]

162. I do believe the only reason many here hated Bush was because

he wasn't a Democrat. If he did all the vile crap he did as a DEM I am sure many here would be making excuses for him and cursing out those of us who criticized him as purists or Trotskyists or Naderists or wanting a pony.

[QC]

163. Yeah, it's kind of a team mentality. n/t

[democrattotheend]

131. How is it bigoted?

I'm sorry, but I don't think saying that Obama does not have to start out the search by saying specifically "I want to pick a gay person for SCOTUS" is bigoted. I don't think he should start out limiting the candidates to any minority group. He should look at all of the qualified candidates and then pick one with an eye toward diversity, whether that be a gay person, a Hispanic, another woman, a Native American, a Muslim, or any other group that is not represented or underrepresented on the Court. If you consider that bigoted I'm sorry.

[hulklogan]

135. I don't think anyone here is saying that Obama should ONLY appoint a minority.

What many people are saying is that they would like the Supreme Court to be more representative of America, because all but a handful of Supreme Court Justices have been straight white protestant men. And if the top two candidates have exactly equal qualifications, won't the candidates' identities play a role in who eventually gets the nomination? Age, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, birthplace, judicial philosophy, and more will all be considered in this candidate search.

If it were all down to objective measures, a robot could choose the next Justice.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Runcible Spoon]

173. Great. They deleted my message AGAIN.

I don't care. The short, short version:

There ARE bigots on DU, and some of them are posting on this very thread. Of course, they will veil it under the banner of being against "identity politics". :puke:

[LWolf]

157. Is there a potential nominee who is out? nt

[ruggerson]

158. Kathleen Sullivan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Sullivan

[LWolf]

176. Do you think Obama is considering her?

She is certainly qualified.

[anonymous171]

159. Why should 9 geezers make descisions that affect the lives of young people?

[phleshdef]

167. Geez. If he appointed a gay man, people would be bitching about why an unlikely parent...

...is making decisions related to abortion.

[AJH032]

170. The religious views of the Justices are their own private business

I don't know why you care that there are two Jewish Justices.

[onenote]

178. isnt' that sort of like asking why a black person should make decisions

that affect the lives of the vast majority of the population that is not black?

[ruggerson]

190. uh, no. It isn't.

[slackmaster]

180. How do you know they are all straight?

:shrug:

[slackmaster]

191. Shamelessly kicking my own reply - No takers? Seriously?

:shrug: again

[DURHAM D]

184. So, we have 2 Jews and 5 Roman Catholics.

What are the other 2?

[slackmaster]

193. Maybe they're gay or lesbian

:argh:

[grantcart]

185. It would make up my day to wake up with 9 outstanding SCJ

and realize that X number were Gay and that no one really even focused on that fact.



Your right we have to start with one, hopefully within this term.




A side benefit is that it would push the Republican Party further to the right on the gay rights issue.

[yodoobo]

188. None of them are engineers either

But they certainly affect me.


Clearly, diversity on the high court is a good thing, but there is a limit to having 9 people precisely represent the diversification of 300 million people.

To achieve complete representation, we would probably need a couple hundred justices.

[LWolf]

189. I would like to say

how sorry I am that this topic has apparently generated so much hostility and knee-jerk reaction at DU, :(

and that I'm glad to see that this thread, anyway, is still viable.

What DOES the Democratic Party, and DU, truly stand for?