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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:11 PM
Original message
Max Baucus says we need to keep our powder dry.
Yes, he really did say that about health care. He said everyone needs to keep their powder dry.

We control the Senate, the House, and the White House. Good margins, most in years, good chance to bring change.

And Baucus actually has the nerve to say that we need to keep our powder dry.

Public debate over 'public option' for healthcare

The Obama administration and its allies are now scrambling to contain a full-throated ideological debate that some fear could threaten the most ambitious healthcare campaign in nearly a generation.

"Everybody needs to keep their powder dry," Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) said in an interview. "We have a huge opportunity to accomplish very significant health reform. . . . Let's not have any sparks that could light a fire."


Let's not have any sparks that could light a fire?

Why is this man in charge of doing our new health care system if he is so terrified of a few sparks and so afraid we won't keep our powder dry.

I am surprised he actually used the words about dry powder. We have long mocked those in our party who kept voting with the right in order to keep their powder dry. The war in Iraq, the bankruptcy bill, the wiretapping bill...keeping our powder dry all that time.

The article continues with more about the views of Baucus.

Baucus, who plans to introduce sweeping healthcare legislation next month, said he had recommended starting with less controversial elements of healthcare reform. "We don't have to deal with the public insurance option on the first day," he said.

Baucus, Obama and others see a new government program as crucial to covering the approximately 46 million people in the United States who have no insurance. They also argue that a public alternative would pressure private insurers to control costs and improve quality.


The article mentions Move On, the conservative groups, several others...but it does not mention Howard Dean's effort with DFA and Move On to push the public option. Not a word. It does not even mention his name. Disappearing someone by ignoring.

Baucus and the others are just terrified of the insurance companies, too afraid to set up that government run public option. Today's press conference and yesterday's phone conference verified that. Nyceve covers the phone conference at Daily Kos today.

You know the old phrase "they think we are stupid?" Well, this sounds like they really do think that.

Bellows: "I have two questions. The first is following up on Michael Fletcher's and Eliza Marcus' questions: is the President still insistent that a public health plan will be among the options offered to people, or is that a bargaining chip in any way? And the second question, following up on Andrew Beatty's: is it correct that the cost per capita will still increase, just not as much as it previously was projected to?

Senior Administration Official #1: "On the second question, the answer to that is yes. Again, what we're talking about here is reducing the growth rate, so yes, health care costs, you should anticipate health care costs will continue to rise, but achieving a slowdown in the rate at which they increase is a, would be a huge accomplishment in terms of freeing up resources for other priorities and in terms of relieving pressure on the federal budget."

The official continued with a justification for accepting continued healthcare cost increases: "One of the reasons that you should expect health care costs to continue to increase is not only that the population is aging, which puts some upward pressure on health spending, but also that as incomes rise over time, it is natural that people want to spend part of their additional income on health care...."

Bellows: "The second question?"


Senior Administration Official #2: "On the public plan, this event with the President tomorrow is not about the public plan, we've had no discussion with this group about he public plan, in fact, if I look at the list of trade associations that are part of this, there are different views about it, but the President likes the public plan, it's part of his campaign plan (sic: campaign platform?)"


Well, I must be stupid because that makes little sense to me.

But the kicker is in the NYT article from yesterday which says they have no way of being sure the insurance companies keep their word to cut costs.

Doctors, hospitals, drug makers and insurance companies will join President Obama on Monday in announcing their commitment to a sharp reduction in the growth of national health spending, White House officials said Sunday.

At this point, administration officials said, they do not have a way to enforce the commitment, other than by publicizing the performance of health care providers to hold them accountable.


It's simple. If you make a government-run public option available, it will enforce the accountability of the private sector.

I notice the media keeps making it sound like Max Baucus is supportive of a public option. In fact, he really only thinks of it as a way to get the insurance companies to behave. Not by passing it, but simply by threatening it.

Baucus responds to Howard Dean plea for a public option....probably not needed.

Let’s see what we come up with. I think we can accomplish the objective (Dean) wants without (a public plan). We can, we’re going to have to work on it. But we may have to have it, (Dean) may be right. Just don’t know yet.


Talk about wishy washy?

More about that option from Baucus:

Dean believes that the public plan would improve system efficiency and quality, but Baucus is more interested in using the program as a political tool to bring insurers to the table and keep single payer advocates at the table. The public, however, supports the public option. According to a poll by Lake Research, “73% of voters want everyone to have a choice of private health insurance or a public health insurance plan while only 15% want everyone to have private insurance.”


Problem is that Baucus is in charge, and he gets to do what he wants to do. They simply tell those who call about a public option or single payer that there is not enough interest.

That is their secret weapon...to pretend we are not calling to pretend we are not there.

And we fall for it every single time.




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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Yes we wouldn't want all those juicy contributions..... ahem errrr I mean we wouldn't want to upset
certain people...pardon me...... I mean...."
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Exactly
Baucus is a wholly owned subsidiary of the health insurance industry.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. He lit the match
:mad:
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. Assclown n/t
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islandgirl808 Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. what does that mean?
"keep our powder dry"??

:shrug:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It means do nothing.
Don't cause sparks, don't make waves.

He is telling us to hush and sit down for now.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Your understanding of "keep your powder dry" is incorrect

It means that when you are approaching combat take care to protect your ammunition so it is at hand when you needed.

It was famously first used by Cromwell when upon crossing a river he said, 'put your trust in God; but mind to keep your powder dry'.

It has never been commonly used to stiffle dissenting opinions, but to be sure that you are well prepared for battle.



http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/217500.html

The allusion is to gunpowder which soldiers had to keep dry in order to be ready to fight when required. This advice reputedly originated with Oliver Cromwell during his campaign in Ireland. In Ballads of Ireland (1856), Edward Hayes wrote:

"There is a well-authenticated anecdote of Cromwell. On a certain occasion, when his troops were about crossing a river to attack the enemy, he concluded an address, couched in the usual fanatic terms in use among them, with these words - 'put your trust in God; but mind to keep your powder dry'."


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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Thanks for that....I admit, I never really understood what that meant! n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. It means more than just being ready to fight.
It means actually doing something when the time is right to do it.

One can have their firepower sitting and waiting and being kept dry, but one needs the wisdom to realize one is being jerked around...that is what I meant.

It does no good to have control of congress if we are not going to do anything about it.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
43. When a DLC/Blue Dog type speaks of "dry powder"-they mean the blush powder in their makeup kits.
Edited on Tue May-12-09 01:49 PM by Dr Fate
Max has to pretty himself up when he gets ready to bend over for conservative lobbyists. That is the only "dry powder" he knows about.

Imagery of Guns, Fighting & Combat as against conservative/Republican lobbyists? Since when do DLC/Blue Bog Dems "Blast away" (the presumed opposite of dry powder) at lobbyists in the Healthcare industry?

LOL- you have got to be kidding. It's not guns or ammo that he must be referring to- it's make up.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. MF, have you read the Baucus outline. That's where the public option comes from, from Baucus' own
work product.

I'm thinking we should help the Democrats keep it in and get it passed ( the public option) instead of screaming about it so long and loud that it becomes a lightning rod that blows up the entire thing.

Since health care meeting after health care meeting across MT has a solid majority of people in attendance asking for single payer, and since it was Baucus who put the public option on the table (not a single payer system but a public pool) i'm not as freaked out right now as you are.

I think we need to organize people to be ready to hit the doors if and when it's nessesary, but I can't see that we need to assume the worst from the get go. If you read what Baucus actually says, it's quite vague and none too final. (with the exception of a single payer system, which he has rejected repeatedly.)


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. So you agree that we need to keep our powder dry?
I am quoting his own words.

I am not making stuff up.

Everything I posted is very true, and it needs to be said.

You suggest we sit and wait and see what they will do.

Okay, that is fine. It is all being done behind closed doors basically. Has been for months.

I am not "freaking out" to use the Conservadem type of words....I am just very angry that they foisted that press conference today and the phone conference yesterday and expect us to swallow it right down.

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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. This reminds me too much of Cheney's secret energy meetings.
There everything happened behind closed doors only with the industry stakeholders present.

Deja vu.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. No, I don't agree. I'm just saying we also might no want to open fire either. At
least until we know who we need to shoot.

Coalitions members often have very different objectives and reasons to being part of a coalition.

I don't know what you know about SEIU, but they have been a long and loud and consistent voice calling for the public option. Long before Dean uttered the words in public, I was at meetings sponsored by SEIU where the union was working to strengthen the public Option and planning how to force congress to keep it in.

The fact that a coalition held a meeting and a news conference doesn't surprise or anger me. Why would it? it's just words, it's not law, it's not a done deal either way.

I see it as a sign that we are winning, otherwise why would the seamier memebers of the coalition (insurers) even give a rats ass?
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Good reminder.
Taken under consideration.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. So you think I am "opening fire" by using Baucus' words?
See, I don't think so.

I think I am pointing out the obvious.

So we don't agree there.

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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Nope, I don't think that at all. Have you read the Baucus health care principles
It appeared to me that you didn't realize that Baucus proposed the idea of a "Public Option" in his health care principles he published last January.



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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Then why is he saying such things about it now?
I am quoting him.

If he did say it, then he should stick with it...and not be apologetic.

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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. He's non-committal as far as I can tell. He'd rather work on other issues first and deal with
the Public Option down the road. That suggests to me that he thinks it's a better way to get it passed.

He just won re-election with 70% of the vote here.



I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me that he's working to get agreement on what he considers to be less contentious parts of a package first. If he wanted to kill off the Public Option why not do it now? He was unequivocal on single payer. Flat out said no.

But folks in the unions seem to think that the Public Option is key to getting single payer down the road. It will start weening the public from private plans, and as fewer and fewer are in private insurance and more and more in the public pool then we can transition without a lot of disruption.

That's what I'm hearing from long time single payer advocates.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. As I said...he is in control.
He is a place of power, we are not.

I got emails and donated and supported SEIU since the Dean campaign days. I cancelled them when their blog Since White Bread began to feature Marshall Wittman aka Bullmoose as one of the head bloggers.
I know they are creative and willing to negotiate a lot, but that really bothered me.

That is what I have been posting....that the public option is the way to the single payer.

But this dry powder thing when we have more control than we have had in ages...just worries me.

I don't like being told I am freaking out when I am writing perfectly sensible things that need saying.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
36. I think he really means, "let's just keep our powder".
No sense using it for anything. That stuff's expensive. Let's build a big arsenal, and never use it.
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snowdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. Diane Rehm Show BS-- UNBELIEVABLE BS FROM DIANE REHM SHOW ON NPR...........
and so called progressives push LIES.



Forum Name General Discussion: Presidential
Topic subject Diane Rehm Show BS-- UNBELIEVABLE BS FROM DIANE REHM SHOW ON NPR
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8401570#8401570
8401570, Diane Rehm Show BS-- UNBELIEVABLE BS FROM DIANE REHM SHOW ON NPR
Posted by snowdays on Mon May-11-09 03:23 PM

Diane needs to hear from Single payer advocates --please email her.


from an email:

Diane Rehm Show BS



Health Justice
to me

11:14 AM (1 hour ago)

UNBELIEVABLE BS FROM DIANE REHM SHOW ON NPR
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
eightball The Diane Rehm Show on NPR this morning has the usual claptrap uttered by the usual mouthpieces -- Len Nichols, etc -- talking about how the insurance companies are going to play nice. It's hard to believe the lies coming out of their mouths -- "most people don't want single payer." It is making me sick. And the callers are calling them on it, saying they don't want for-profit insurance companies in the mix. Nonetheless, the usual suspects are uttering the usual lies. A federal health plan -- a public plan option --etc. I can hardly express myself for the anger I am feeling. And the radio talking mouths are making fun of the people who are calling.

Email Diane Rehm at drshow@wamu.org . This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it and protest this one-sided crap.

Quick Links...
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
15. Public Plan = Unbreakable democratic majority nationwide. nt
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
21. Someone needs to give Ed Schultz a heads up to keep his powder dry.
He was pretty outspoken today about it.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. Max Baucus - a walking advertisement for term limits
been there so long he's taken root
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
24. Dean on Rachel Maddow again tonight...tell that man to keep that powder dry.
He spoke again for a public option.

Geez all the folks making sparks.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
25. Ever had a kidney stone, or a heart attack, or a bleeding ulcer ...
... while keeping your powder dry? It sounds great on paper.

We *do* torture in America. We do torture American citizens. We torture them when they are ill and don't have insurance. We torture them every damned day with worry over what they will do if they get sick and have no health care coverage. "They" being the Great Unwashed who have been turned down by insurance companies (even if they can and want to pay) because of pre-existing conditions. Or "They" who simply can't manage the unconscionably high premiums charged to belong to a club that will bar the door when you want to enter because .... "Oh, that's not covered."

We've been had. For years. When do we storm the Bastille?
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
26. keep our powder dry! OH MY GOODNESS...
what the hell is he waiting on, for the other side to throw up the white flag instead??? we outnumber them drastically in the Congress and we have the White House... dude is a jerk on this!
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
27. K&R
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democrat2thecore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
28. David Sirota: The Move Away From Single-Payer
True health care reform is dead. The "Public Option" trick (a farce) has worked.
http://www.openleft.com/diary/13294/the-move-away-from-singlepayer
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I totally disagree. This kind of stuff will lose any chance for public insurance.
I usually agree with Sirota, this time I do not.

I could say more, but I won't right now. Tired of the attacks from both sides.

The Public Option is not a trick, not a farce.
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democrat2thecore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Public option
As someone recently said, "public option" would end up being Medicaid on steroids, underfunded, and a political football competing with all the same old players in the health insurance industry. Single-payer eliminates the health insurance industry. A "public option" would quickly dissolve into nothing more than a broader-based Medicaid, that's not what we need, we need MediCARE for all.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. No, Medicare is a public plan now. But to some it will be single payer or be damned.
Open it up to everyone.

Now I see why so few here supported what Dean is doing. He's being practical on what we can get.

:shrug:

We will end up with nothing.
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democrat2thecore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. You really think it's as simple as Medicare open for all?
That's EXACTLY what I mean by parsing of words from Obama, Dean, etc. The fine print makes it clear it's Medicare (more like Medicaid) with all sorts of litmus tests, etc. After all, private, for-profit insurance is maintained. Period. Medicare for ALL, means just that. And, please, learn the facts, the proposal is not opening up Medicare to all who want it. If that's what you think - their careful words are working.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. You don't appear to know the difference between Medicare and Medicaid.
I have seen us fight for many things here, we haven't gotten much we wanted.

So demand perfection and get nothing.

Bye for now, tired of arguing.
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democrat2thecore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. I know, and I am too.
Edited on Tue May-12-09 01:57 AM by democrat2thecore
I do know the difference. I am being facetious when I talk of Medicaid. The message is a "public option" will end up being a bone for the poor with funding siphoned off by the health insurance profiteers. Single-payer works, because that IS our health insurance - the pool is everyone.

I understand being tired of arguing, I am too. You're a good DUer - I know from many past posts.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. No it won't. If you want a kitten, better keep asking for a pony.
For me, a public option is Plan B, since it only realized 9% of the total savings from single payer.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Sirota says public plan is a fraud.
Which means that those advocating for it, Dean, and those of us who signed the petition are frauds.

You can ask for what you want without calling an important voice a fraud by implication.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. If Schumer gets his way (and Schumer often does), then it will be a fraud
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/05/health/policy/05health.html?_r=4&ref=us

This scares the bejeezus out of me because if Schumer's idea of a public option is put into practice, it will give the movement to reform health-care a bad name.

Baucus' options are not very good, either.

When I signed Dean's petition, none of these plans were on the table, but now that they are starting to come together through leaks/speeches, I do not like what I am seeing. It's got conservadems crap all over it and promises to fail because of that, just like "managed care" did years ago.

A public option will be co-opted by senators who are beholden to the insurance lobby. A single-payer plan removes their influence.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #37
49. It isn't fraud,--it's merely aiming too low n/t
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Lautremont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
38. WHO IS BARKUS.
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
39. Baucus' phone lines are busy ... not surprising. I'll keep trying.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Keep trying to phone Baucus. I just got through. The woman who answered was a tad...cranky!
I expect they are getting a lot of calls from people demanding that ALL health care reform options get a fair hearing. "Why not single payer? Why not a public option?" I asked the woman when I finally got through. I wasn't angry or confrontational. I simply told her what I wanted and then asked my questions about why EVERY option isn't being considered.

She was pretty pissy.

Heh. Now I must insert evil grin smiley here!! :evilgrin:
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
42. So a DLCer wants to keep his powder puff dry for fellow conservatives- nothing new here.
I thought DLC chumps stopped saying "keep your powder dry" when its time to pretend that we have to cave to Republicans- they need a new phrase.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
44. It's tough to keep our powder dry, Mr. Senator, when we're drowning. - n/t
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
45. Oh fer fuck's sake
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fadedrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
46. How many and which Dems working on Health Care Reform..
received campaign contributions from Pharma, insurance companies, and other profiters from present health system?

Isn't there a way to bring out this info to us "little people"?
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
47. Baucus' direct line is 202-224-2651
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
48. Obama needs to get behind the public option, even if it not single payer.
Edited on Tue May-12-09 10:02 PM by MasonJar
I am beginning to doubt his committment to the issues that I most care about. Is this a WH/Congress ploy to look like they tried to get a public option? I hope not. The public wants a public option so the elected officials ignore us at the peril. Obama promised change and I expect it. If he does not deliver, his great numbers will plummet. I knew when I voted for Obama that he was not a progressive, but I also heard him promise many significant changes. Perhaps he imagines the liberals have nowhere to go so he is ignoring us. I hope my take on this is wrong.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
50. You know you can keep your powder dry but still fix bayonets!!
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