Why I'm not supporting Single Payer Option.................RIGHT NOW...

[uponit7771]

My main reason for not supporting it right now is because it would take too long to implement and could possibly go into another admin which would be reThug or reThug light and kill it with relatively few people noticing it being dead (see SEC under Bush admin).

A public\private option could be implemented in less than 2 years even with HCI propping up road blocks, just expand current SCHIP age limit and income ranges, for example and call it something else.

We have the infrastructure in place right now for public\private option as Obama has outlined in his campaign.

Your input?

Thx in advance...

[lostnotforgotten]

1. Hate To Say All Those Reasons Are Rationalizations - Nothing More

eom

[uponit7771]

5. Would we be better served at not letting the perfect be the enemy of good?

Also, what about the time issue?

Would you trust this issue in the hands of a reThug?

Thx

[lostnotforgotten]

11. We Would All Be Better Served By Removing, Once And For All, Any Profit Motive In Health Care

eom

[creeksneakers2]

15. When all those people who would have had health care

will have to go without, tell them their health and financial solvency are far less important than your sense of social justice. Tell them even when lack of insurance leads them to catastrophic health problems. Tell the doctors and nurses they have to work for free. Tell everybody who makes a buck off health care that they are fired if they don't work for free. Tell them Pol Pot knew how to handle problems like somebody making some money.

[lostnotforgotten]

17. So You Support 40 Million Americans Being Uninsured! - Now We Know Where You Stand!

eom

[creeksneakers2]

24. I want the public option available to everybody

Where did I say I support 40 million Americans being unisured?

[lostnotforgotten]

40. I Lived Without Health Care - Unemployed For 5 Years - Single Payer Universal Coverage the Only Way

Until you live without any access to health care, like I did for 5 years, you and others will get no support from me on your half way measures!

[Zavulon]

50. I have been without health care for two years and counting,

and I still don't support the so-called "single-payer." The government can't handle it for its military, and it's supposed to manage it for over 300 million people?

I had to move from Canada, where I'd prefer to be, to the States because the Canadian system wouldn't cover my father for something that even Kaiser Permanente covers down here. What happens up there is what will happen down here: as the government engages in its typical waste, abuse and inefficiency, the money will run short. Taxes will be increased, benefits will be cut, health care will be rationed like cigarettes during WWII, and people will suffer.

The implementation period will be slow and with lots of growing pains, and then once it's in place - which means we're never going back - little by little the list of things the system covers will shrink as the money is blown. People who think Canada's system is so great (they're mostly 40 or under, I'll bet) should look up the list of things not covered. As an example, a couple years ago a friend on mine in BC was told his child's autism was no longer covered. After wasting the money, BC arbitrarily stopped taking care of autistic kids.

Ask Belinda Stronach. She blathers on more than anyone about how great the system is, and yet when she needed an operation she couldn't get help in Canada, so she went to California and paid out of her own pocket. This was no average citizen, either - she's a household name up there.

Just look at how the Social Security program was mismanaged - originally, 2% on the uber-rich was all anyone was supposed to pay, honest, cross our hearts and hope to die, and 21 tax increases and benefit cuts later it's one of the most regressive taxes imaginable. The poor and minorities often don't live to collection age, and they're talking about raising it again. In the meantime, politicians blow the surplus left and right. The same will happen with the so-called "single payer."

The so-called "single-payer" sounds nice in theory, but in practice it will be a disaster. Be careful what you wish for. As I said, I'm without health care and I'm still against the so-called "single payer." Eventually, I will be able to afford health care, and I want it to be worth paying for and actually there to help me when I need it.

[Telly Savalas]

32. So you think the French health care system is fundamentally flawed?

I thought it was supposed to be one of the best in the world.

[lostnotforgotten]

41. I Lived Without Health Care For Five Years - Those Were Five Years Of Fear!

Universal Coverage, Single Payer, Not For Profit Health care is the only answer.

[Captain Hilts]

2. It's not about getting single payer, it's about pulling the debate to the left since Ins. Companies

HMOs and the American Hosp. Assn. are at the table.

I'm glad that insurance companies are being given a voice, but that voice MUST be balanced at the negotiating table. Single payer does that.

[uponit7771]

9. HCI are facing around 25% cut in revenue NO MATTER WHAT, they've most likely have polled this issue

...to death along with some reThugs (using Frank Luntz...they KNOW they're in trouble) and know they have an uphill battle.

They also know they only weapon they have is time, they could use IMPLEMENTING single payer to stall for a reThug admin or a reThug light admin and we're back in the same boat.

The meeting the other day was a major tell on their part, they know they're gonna get hurt and want to lesson the pain.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. And that is what they count on

the system is not that hard to implement, but there is no political will

And if we don't do it now... forget it

[eleny]

6. Makes me suspicious of why there's talk about Medicare being in trouble

All of a sudden, the Medicare system will go bankrupt, the sky is falling and such. I'm very suspicious of the timing of the negative assertions about Medicare.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Yeah I felt the tin foil getting tighter as I heard that on NPR

[Telly Savalas]

29. The annual report on Medicare and Social Security was scheduled to be released today.

They're usually released around this time of year, are they not?

Given that we've fallen into a severe recession which is going to put a pretty big dent into revenues, is it surprising that the assessment is more pessimistic than it's been in the past?

What would be suspicious is if they delayed issuing the annual report for Medicare or if they released it with a surprisingly rosy picture despite the economic shitstorm we're in the middle of.

[eleny]

33. That does make sense, then, TS

[uponit7771]

13. Single payer would mean cutting out the HCI altogether, you don't think that would be

...disruptive at the least or time intensive to implement?

Thx in advance for your response

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. :Lets put it this way, the system as exists right now has five

more years max, before it sinks completely... according to people in the bidness.

Right now what they should do... is medicare for all... which is what private providers fear... coindinky that medicare is in trouble...

Follow the money and cui bono?

[uponit7771]

21. yeap, read some of the responses and it seems like Medicare or SCHIP has to be on the table

...or we're done for.

We can't go another admin with the status quo

[trof]

4. 5 THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT OBAMA'S PUBLIC HEALTH INSURANCE OPTION

From moveon.org.
Sounds good to me.

Dear MoveOn member,

Last week Republicans on Capitol Hill held a strategy summit on how to defeat key parts of the president's health care plan.

At one point, Republican pollster Frank Luntz declared, "You're not going to get what you want, but you can kill what they're trying to do."1

Luntz wrote a confidential memo that laid out the Republican strategy: Pretend to support reform. Mislead Americans about the heart of Obama's plan, the public health insurance option. Scare enough people to doom real reform.


Since most people don't know much about the public health care option, these lies could take root if we don't fight back. Can you send this out to all your friends and neighbors?
5 THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT OBAMA'S PUBLIC HEALTH INSURANCE OPTION


The choice of a public health insurance plan is crucial to real health care reform. But right now, it's being smeared by conservatives and insurance-industry front groups. Here's what you really need to know:


1. Choice, choice, choice. If the public health insurance option passes, Americans will be able to choose between their current insurance and a high-quality, government-run plan similar to Medicare. If you like your current care, you can keep it. If you don't—or don't have any—you can get the public insurance plan.2


2. It will be high-quality coverage with a choice of doctors. Government-run plans have a track record of innovating to improve quality, because they're not just focused on short-term profits. And if you choose the public plan, you'll still get to choose your doctor and hospital.3


3. We'll all save a bunch of money. The public health insurance option won't have to spend money on things like CEO bonuses, shareholder dividends, or excessive advertising, so it'll cost a lot less. Plus, the private plans will have to lower their rates and provide better value to compete, so people who keep their current insurance will save, too.4

4. It will always be there for you and your family. A for-profit insurer can close, move out of the area, or just kick you off their insurance rolls. The public health insurance option will always be available to provide you with the health security you need.5


5. And it's a key part of universal health care. No longer will sick people or folks in rural communities, or low-income Americans be forced to go without coverage. The public health insurance plan will be available and accessible to everyone. And for those struggling to make ends meet, the premiums will be subsidized by the government.6


We all need to speak out to make sure we get real health reform. Please pass this email on, then call your senators and ask them to support the choice of a public health insurance plan. Here's the info for your state:

[Thrill]

7. Its not a Reality. Fighting for it is big waste of time.

Not enough support for it in the Senate. The real fight is making sure the Public Option is in there

[vaberella]

20. +1. Excellent post. n/t

[endarkenment]

8. It is simpler to implement. Next?

The Medicare system both for revenue collection and bill payments is already in place. All that has to be done is to expand it to everyone and rewrite the prescription plan to be something not so clearly a work of total corruption. The regulatory structure for a mandate plan does not exist, the legislation required to implement such a structure is massively complicated (see the Clinton attempt), and will be attacked and sabotaged by the kleptocracy as is their wont.

[riderinthestorm]

10. Doctors/groups that refuse to treat government sponsored patients.

It's becoming a bigger problem as more doctors/groups refuse to take anyone on a public plan because their share of the reimbursement pie isn't "big" enough....

Pushing more of these patients (ie all the presently uninsured, who would suddenly be insured) onto the rolls, there will be a mass exodus of doctors who will treat the ever expanding masses.

What we need is a public health plan like the French whereby everyone gets access to the same quality of care, the same basic services, without anyone being excluded for pre-existing conditions, and you pay for "extras" through private insurance.

[riderinthestorm]

38. crickets on this point so I'm bumping it up

Look, the private insurance companies ensure that anyone on the public plan will get cut out since they don't kick back "enough" to the doctors.

We need to radically transform health care so it's not about profit motives but about quality health care. That means changing the mindset of doctors and patients who have grown accustomed to our perverted system.

You haven't touched the underground reality that many people on govt assistance programs are facing in finding health care providers IF they don't have expensive private supplemental insurance. That just has to stop.

Beyond that however, that will be the reality if we only adopt a "public option" insurance program without dramatic overhaul of our present disaster.

[uponit7771]

42. Doctors who wont treat government patients will go broke or they can go onto for profit...

...and still go broke because of less revenues.

It seems like time is running out for everyone but because money is a driver of for profit they will throw in towel first.

Doctors have less to lose than HCI

[kaygore]

12. We already have single payer--it's called Medicare

The infrastructure is already in place. It could be implemented quickly and cost-effectively.

[creeksneakers2]

23. The cost of expanding Medicare to all would hold things up.

The economy would need some time to transition from employers paying to the government paying. Big savings and giant tax hikes. Lots of winners and losers.

[LWolf]

30. No it wouldn't.

The plan's already on the table, it's been there for several years.

[uponit7771]

45. This brings out the point that this has to be SHOWN to everyone. It makes sense just to expand...

...this program and have some people pay into it but some don't believe it.

Maybe a small scale work out could be a good advertisement for this direction.

[Sparkly]

14. If not now, when?

Democrats have both houses of Congress and the White House, and there's strong public support for it. Further, I don't see how it would take longer than any other plans to implement -- it seems simpler, to me.

[vaberella]

19. I don't agree with the rationalization. Sorry.

I support the public option because it WILL get passed and it will lead to single payer in the end.

[uponit7771]

22. I agree with single payer in the end also, just don't think it could be done in next 7 months....

...it seems like the current system doesn't have more than 4 years to go.


Finding out a lot

[vaberella]

26. You're right...

The current system is the worst. Really one of the big things behind the failure of the current system is all of the low hanging fruit that needs to be done in order to have a viable strong health care before we even talk about massive insurance reform. The doctors are dirty dealers, we have hospitals working on a private system which means that they have their own self interests. However a government run system could actually change that.
Problem is, as you stated the initiatives that need to be done would actually circumvent the success of national care. However, it's not a strong enough defense really considering the public option would work almost like single payer with free health care and O making those much needed social reforms. I think the single payer is always the ultimate outcome. Don't think as so many on this board do that because some of us advocate for a public option that we don't want single payer---as you yourself even wish. However ,we can have a public option that has a small number of people, but it also gives us room to make changes more rapidly. The next thing is that the public option will pass.

That's the fundamental key. A single payer will not pass the damn senate. The senate hates us. Meaning majority really hate the American people. You have the 13 Dems who are causing problems. They're currently complaining that they're not allowed to write the bill for public option and that we need to curb spending. Right...we need to spend a little to change a lot of the health wasteful spending we've been doing for decades. So they're horrible and we have the Republicans, who I no longer think are human, and want us all to die. So that being said..the Senate is dangerous and single payer won't hold water.

Obama knows that better than most. That's why I get so angry by the fools on this board who are like this is "not change we can believe in." Right, when we have people intentionally going against us and if anyone has any idea of economics and the business world this would actually lead to single payer in the end anyway. The option is having something government run like medicare and medicaid. This gives the people freedome of choice and when the choice is made which will be the public option everyone will flood it and cancels out private. It's going to be expected for many reasons. Mainly small business besides the fact many people are getting health care through that system.

[John Q. Citizen]

25. There is no such creature as a single payer "option" but i think i understand your

concerns.

However, i really don't care whether individuals or groups or politicians vote for single payer or not. I just want a seat at the table to present and discuss the advantages of single payer over competing ideas. Lets put up ideas head to head and quit running scared from ideas that work without considering them.

As long as we are excluded from the discussion I won't be supporting the public option either. The way to get consensus is to allow everyone to participate.

We are being cut out of the process solely on ideological grounds.

It's a farce and a disgrace.

If we blow this up, then next time we will get a seat at the table. I'm game, if that's how the powers that be demand we play.

It works for the Repos, and the insurance industry, and I bet it will work for us.

I'm just being pragmatic here. Idealism hasn't got us anywhere.

[creeksneakers2]

28. Let 40 million go without health insurance

because you didn't get a turn at a meeting to split support for the alternative that was possible? Which do you care about more? Peoples' health or your own recognition?

[John Q. Citizen]

34. What meeting? There are hearings. in the Senate, Most of the Senators have sat on their asses

letting 100s of million Americans go without health care for the last 50 years.

Why are you blaming me for that? Your anger is misdirected.

My recognition? What are you talking about? There are nationally known health care experts ready and willing to testify about single payer to the Senate. but the Senate won't let them testify.

When the Dems Senate and House were cut out of health care back in 1993, they told the Clintons fuck you! This time the Senate and the house have a seat at the table. That's progress. Back in 1993, when the hospitals and the drug companies and the care providers and the insurance companies were cut out of the process they told the Clinton's fuck you! Now they have a seat at the table. That's progress.

If you are so worried about the all the people screwed over by the Clintons, the Dems and the Repo Congress, and the heath care industrial complex, perhaps you will let them know that. Or you can be angry at me if you want to, for complaining that the majority of people in this country (according to a lot of different polls) who support a single payers system don't even get a chance to sit at the same table with the people who have exacerbated the problem for years and present our case.

I know the Senate isn't going to pass a single payer bill this session. But they apparently forgot that when you cut people out of the decision making process, you do so at the risk of them saying "Fuck you!"

[mvd]

31. Yes, it won't cost them anything or force them to do anything to give single payer a seat

It's about hearing all voices - not expecting everything at once.

[John Q. Citizen]

35. Exactly. Single payer advocates know that the likelyhood of a single payer bill passing is zip. But

we deserve the opportunity to be part of the process and to help shape what finally does get passes through our participation in that process.

Just like the healthcare industrial complex does.

[uponit7771]

46. I do think this should be so, the only reason single payer is not sitting is because of

...lobbyist not GOPers or GOPer bases who wouldn't mind a single payer also.

The polls for single payer or public option is well founded.

[dflprincess]

47. What is truly amazing is that Congress has become so brazen about how corrupt it is

Once upon a time they would have invited single payer advoctes to speak even if they knew they weren't actually going to listen to them. Now they don't even bother to hide who owns them.

[uponit7771]

43. If we blow this up the whole system will go down, one thing we all know is we can NOT.

...keep spending 1/4 of our median avg income on health care even for healthy people.

[Hippo_Tron]

27. You're wasting your time trying to appeal to people who are fighting an ideological struggle

For some people this is about getting 47 million access to some basic health care as soon as possible. For others this is about punishing private health insurance for their sins. Those two camps aren't going to come to an agreement.

[ProSense]

36. Here's the fight:

Obama came in with a plan that included a public option.

Some Democrats are trying to water that down. Forget Republicans.

Many, including some DUers, are demanding that that the plan have a progressive public option

Some want to fight for single payer realizing that it may lead to a progressive public option.

Others want single payer or nothing.



What will be the outcome?

[LiveLiberally]

37. The REAL key to getting a Single Payer system is FIRST getting a public plan that is open to all....

If that can be accomplished, i.e. if all Americans who don't currently have access to health insurance had the option of -- to quote the campaign -- "joining the same health insurance enjoyed by members of Congress" then a single payer system would be the eventual result.

Why? Simple. Right now as a state employee I have health benefits through my state -- at an annual cost of approx $12,000 for family coverage (and this doesn't count the monthly employee contribution). Unless a federal public plan is substantially more expensive ( extremely unlikely given its numerical clout), there will be no incentive for states to continue to manage their own health care systems. Union contracts will pose a barrier initially, but eventually -- particularly if salaries and other perks are increased to compensate -- the options for state employees will be reduced to a few catastrophic choices and the federal public plan. And where the states go the private sector will eventually follow.

So no, I don't really buy the argument that health reform will "allow me to keep my own insurance if I'm happy with it." If it is real reform, in the long run (or not so long run depending upon the robustness of the public plan) it won't.

And that is fine with me. I support a single-payer system. But it is no coincidence that every European single payer system was created in the immediate aftermath of a devastating world war; out of the ashes of economic collapse can come radical change. But I'm not about to wish such a scenario for us; I'm willing to wait IF the Administration is willing to stick to its guns and insist that a federal public plan becomes a viable, cost-effective option for uninsured and under-insured Americans. If it won't....then I will agree with the naysayers who fear that the Administration may be wasting a once-in-a-generation opportunity to ensure health care for all.

[Honeycombe8]

39. I agree. It'd be too costly and would take YEARS to switch from one system

(a private one) to another totally different system (a public one). Also, much of the appeal of the HC Reform Act that looks like the W.H. will push is that if someone is happy with the private policy s/he has, s/he can keep things as they are. But a person CAN opt for a public policy, which will be govt subsidized, in accordance with a person's ability to pay.

Even the two-system system will be very expensive and complicated to work out the kinks in it.

[uponit7771]

44. Hopefully the expansion of SCHIP as we know it will be less expensive and time...

...consuming.

I don't think Obama has more than 2 years before the current system shows some cracks to make it inoperative.

[leftstreet]

48. Did it take long to go from for-profit Fire Departments to nonprofit ones?

:shrug:

[Lorien]

49. Food for thought:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6646340600856118396

[Voltaire]

51. Folks, if you want single payer

You will have to go and take it. You and I and a lot of our friends are going to have to go and take it. The Congress will not fight for you. President Obama will not fight for you unless you make him fight for you (and I love the man). The insurance companies sure as hell are not looking for any real reforms either.

We. Will. Have. To. Fight. For. This.

Support your local demonstrations this month, I am. Join one of the many groups that are fighting to get single-payer on the table. Forget the politicians and forget the insurance companies. And go out and get single payer. Because none of the guys talking about healthcare now are about to just give it to you.