Why Obama not publicizing the new torture photos is a BRILLIANT political move...

[zulchzulu]

Poll question: Why Obama not publicizing the new torture photos is a BRILLIANT political move...

In my view, the people nagging that Obama should release the new crop of torture photos to the public and World at large are playing tic-tac-toe to Obama plotting a dozen chess moves ahead politically. Additionally, the photos will eventually be released/leaked anyway.

So what has Obama done by not releasing the torture photos while acknowledging that torture was used by the Bush administration?

[lamp_shade]

1. Brilliant.

[zipplewrath]

2. None of the above

This is the first in a series of moves that will define his presidency. It will be defined by him avoiding confrontation at almost any cost. No Drama Obama will pursue the art of the possible and ultimately miss chances to be transformational. Thus, when it's over, it will be predominately undone by his successors.

[Cha]

5. You so know nothing.

But, that doesn't stop you from spouting like you got some freakin' crystal fucking ball.

[zipplewrath]

7. Um, that was the point

The entire point of the question was to predict the future. And you have no idea what I know, but that doesn't stop you from "spouting like you got some freakin' crystal fucking ball".

[Cha]

12. I know from the pronouncement

in your post that you're clueless on President Obama.

[zipplewrath]

17. Well, this is a discussion forum

Please, do illustrate what you know since you're so clued in.

[William769]

29. Compared to your crystal ball?

:rofl:

[zulchzulu]

6. Obama clearly defined on his second day that torture will not be allowed

Obama knows three things about the torture photos.

1. They will be leaked out into the net sooner or later anyway, so why have his hand in it...
2. The photos are part of an ever-growing evidence library for the Justice Department to use in future indictments.
3. The GOP and its media channels aren't given the obvious ruse they wanted leading up to 2010.

Obama is not only doing the correct thing, he's doing it at a level that is perhaps over some people's heads of understanding the political implications. It is, after all, political.

[zipplewrath]

11. Unlikely

1. They will be leaked out into the net sooner or later anyway, so why have his hand in it...

They have not yet. Copies are being destroyed as we wait. Ultimately there will be so few they will never leak. At some point in the future, after all legal challenges are gone, they will be destroyed. The CIA has already destroyed evidence. The only hope these come out are if he loses all the legal challenges. Even then there are potential other avenues to prevent their release.

2. The photos are part of an ever-growing evidence library for the Justice Department to use in future indictments.

That are never going to happen because the previous administration conspired to prevent any successful prosecutions.

3. The GOP and its media channels aren't given the obvious ruse they wanted leading up to 2010.

This I'll agree with. It is as much a political calculation about being able to focus (nationally and internationally) on other subjects and get the torture debate out of the news cycle. If Dick would just shut up, they could be successful.

[vaberella]

66. Actually they have...I saw a few unintentionally.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/05/here-are-few-of-torture-photos-obama.html

[Milo_Bloom]

14. DING DING DING DING DING

The apologists amaze me on this one.

[zulchzulu]

23. So does the President do investigations?

A simple civics lesson question for you... a bonus question would be what is the role of the Justice Department in the US government?

Answer these questions. Or not...

[rug]

30. Considering he directed Justice to oppose the court's order, he can order investigations.

[Milo_Bloom]

81. You're kidding, right?

This isn't about ordering an investigation, it is about his order to the justice department to work to BLOCK the release of the photos.

[Cha]

3. I think Prez Obama

is smarter than the all armchair strategists put together and has a long range plan while protecting the troops and keeping the Middle East less volitile for his trip there in early June..and the points you listed and possibly more are all side effects.

[ShortnFiery]

4. Hello? The MILITARY BRASS are the TORTURERS and/or ENABLERS. They are still IN CHARGE.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8407833

[zulchzulu]

8. The President doesn't do investigations. The Justice Department does.

The Justice department has the evidence. They are investigating the torture memos and other issues. That's their job.

It's not the job of the Oval Office to do investigations. That's for Kings.

[ShortnFiery]

9. The President is ENABLING the Military Perpetrators to go unpunished by NOT releasing the photos.

You know that, don't you?

[zulchzulu]

19. The Justice Department, which does investigations, has the evidence

The President fortunately does not do investigations. The Founding Fathers were pretty smart about that since they had Kings and Queens that would do such monarchistic episodes.

The Justice Department has the photos. That's evidence. Do you know of any successful judicial investigations where the prosecuting side leaked their evidence before a trial? That's called... um... stupid.

[Sanity Claws]

43. Congress is also being pushed to investigate

Pelosi is pissed at the cia and bush admin lies. Senator Bob Graham has already shown that the dates of the alleged briefings are false.
All of this is going on without Obama stepping into the middle of it. Brilliant chess moves.

[endarkenment]

10. You left out: Obama is now complicit in war crimes.

[zulchzulu]

20. How's that? By having the Justice Department have the evidence, it's his fault?

Wow. We're going into some deep territory here... in the abyss... of nonsense.

[endarkenment]

27. Continuing secret renditions, coverup of existing criminal behavior,

refusal to prosecute war crimes, etc. Refusing to prosecute is itself a violation of our treaty obligations.

[zulchzulu]

32. Presidents don't investigate. Why do you think they call it the Justice Department?

Maybe you remember Day Two of the Obama administration where he did a Presidential Order stopping torture from being allowed.

Additionally, the evidence (torture photos) is best served for the Justice Department.

If you think Obama not releasing the photos somehow makes him have a hand in the events, you are not living in a world I'd want to live in. By that logic, any evidence that the Justice Department is using that Obama doesn't have the public see somehow makes him responsible for whatever happened from that evidence.

[endarkenment]

53. They did not stop all torture. See secret rendition.

The justice department is a branch of the executive. See Obama. Last time I looked, he is the head of the executive branch. Holder works for Obama and is not some independent entity.

I think Obama's not releasing the photos is a continuation of a Bush policy that I found abhorrent then and that I continue to find abhorrent now. It is the policy that is wrong and it does not matter which party label is enacting that policy.

[onetwo]

70. Are police officers complicit in a murder when they withhold grisly crime scene photos?

You're not making any sense.

[mmonk]

13. Is arguing the bush position in court on this issue and issuing

the state secrets privilege in others "brilliant" as well? We didn't call bush "brilliant" for those legal arguments.

[depakid]

15. The rationalizations continue...

It's gotten to point of being sickening.

[zulchzulu]

25. Tell me three reasons why it would be a good thing for Obama to release the torture photos...

No bumpersticker answers.... succinct answers that would benefit Obama and America in general. Remember that Obama has already stated that torture would stop as well as has indicated that the Bush administration did torture...

So what are the reasons why it would be a good thing? Additionally, what would Al Qaeda do with the photos?

[depakid]

31. Beacuse- quite the opposite of what Obama's asserted, it shows that the US is owning up

to its behavior and is (or hopefully will be) holding people to account, and adamently ensuring that these reprehensible policies were and are against the law and will never happen again. That's what will rehabilitate our image abroad and protect US soldiers from adverse reactions and harm- especially over the long run.

Withholding the material on the other hand creates the appearance of "business as usual," if not outright complicity. Not what one would want to people in occupied countries believing- and we can look to Israel's difficulties as proof of that.

[zulchzulu]

39. So should the Justice Department release all evidence in its pending cases?

Surely that would be "transparency"...

:crazy:

[depakid]

47. If it's material that ought to be disclosed pursuant to an FOIA request- absolutely

and this is just such information.

[zulchzulu]

65. The sure-fire fastest way to disrupt & poison an investigation is to release the evidence too early

If I was a prosecutor with an open and shut case (such as the torture case), the last fucking thing I would allow my staff to do is release the evidence prematurely... unless I wanted to lose the case... ON PURPOSE!

A FOIA request can be denied and should be denied if a case is pending and under investigation. Any lawyer who got a degree from Assbutt University would know that.

[depakid]

75. First of all, there aren't any pending cases

and second of all, anyone who's ever done any criminal law (and actually has a law degree) knows the difference between photograps like this (which create a climate supportive of prosecution) and the sort of evidence that's best kept from public view (the probable defendants in these potential cases are of course, already well aware of the contents of this material).

I suppose that's the difference between lawyers- and lay people attempting to rationalize a ill considered, and counterproductive decision. Worst case swcenario- 5 members of the Supreme Court use the case to further gut the FOIA.

[vaberella]

67. He said and done things that already show we're owning up.

So the first argument is weak at best and crap at worst---the rest follow suit.

[depakid]

76. As it happens, General Karpinski agrees with my take

President Obama's reversal of his administration's decision to release more photographs of prisoner abuse is disappointing and infuriating.

It is sad and tragic. The reversal will absolutely stir up more controversy than release of the photographs, causing an outpouring of rampant speculation -- What is the government hiding? Who are the people in the photographs? How awful can these new photos be? And worse.

The president is going to Egypt, and discussions surrounding the photographs are inevitable. He is far better off armed with the ability to have open discussions on all topics instead of apologizing for holding back information. Withholding evidence is counterproductive and does not sound like "truth," and it surely does not sound like "change."

The truth is always helpful. If we put all the photographs on the table, clearing the air, then, and only then, we can get on with the discussion of how to make sure this never happens again. The truth will set us free -- free to find the roots of the problem, allowing us to do what we did best -- making the world a better place to live.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8408906

Frankly, reading these threads simply confirms what I've suspected (or probably known) all along- there isn't much differennce between the Obama über alles crew- and Bush supporters. They'll both rationalize anything away rather than face up to the facts.

Thus, I feel pretty confident that if and when the administration decides not to "move forward" and not prosecute anyone- as they seem intent on doing with those who violated federal statutes and crashed the economy- that I'll be reading all sorts of posts explaining why that's such a wise and astute move- and how "we don't understand" that "they're playing chess."

[onetwo]

72. Odd way to rehabilitate our image.

Releasing photos of the abhorrent behavior of a few and hoping that the viewers understand that, "No, that was the OLD America! The NEW America doesn't do that anymore!" seems like a surefire way to get lots of people around the world to hate us even more and to have our troops severely mistreated when in captivity.

No, the REAL reason you want this released is that you want to get people as angry about this issue as you are, because, frankly, the torture thing has been a bit of a dud in the mainstream as far as rage goes. You're afraid that the story might die before the Bush cabal even sees deliberation to determine guilt. The problem is that you don't quite care WHO gets angry as long as they're angry.

Thankfully, we elected a calm-cool-collected guy who likes to be exceedingly deliberate in his actions.

[onetwo]

71. What's sickening is the apparently strong desire to view graphic photos of torture, even when told..

...that it could possibly endanger the lives of our servicemen overseas and incite fresh anti-American sentiment at a time when we are just starting to slowly restore our standing on the world stage.

Now that's sickening.

[NYC_SKP]

16. Theory: If he DID release them now, some of the same people would still be outraged.

Why?

Because it's what they do, whatever the president does, they craft their rationale to suit it.

Very Foxnewsian, IMHO.

Recommending this OP.

[endarkenment]

18. Oh dear, we've been uncovered!

That's it exactly. We just oppose Obama no matter what he does. Project much?

[JimGinPA]

37. Some Here Do For Sure...

That's not a projection, it's a fact.

[quickesst]

78. You know the old saying...

..."If the shoe fits........Thanks.
quickesst

[Tarheel_Dem]

60. +2....(nt)

[firedupdem]

69. +200 n.t

[boston bean]

21. barack obama is having his DOJ make arguments in court to prevent the release

he won't be able to spin the fact that he was against them being released.


so none of the above

[CrawlingChaos]

22. You mean this isn't sarcasm? Good God (n/t)

[mitchtv]

24. Oh boy, whaT poll

I think I'll pass in light of all tha brilliance. NO place to choose "just plain WRONG"

[TheKentuckian]

26. I don't know if it is brilliant or not but all I see is a political calculation

The saying he would release is the wink and the nod that he personally agrees and then reversing keeps his hands clean while the photos come out anyway.

I'm not sure the wink and nod portion was worth the reversal, since those on the receiving end don't cotton to political maneuvering very much.

Of course, he could have had a legit change of heart on the impact the photos would have short term on troops in the field but I think politics is more likely the reason.

[seaglass]

79. We kill innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan on a frequent

basis, we supply weapons to Israel, yet we aren't concerned enough about the blowback on our troops to stop?

I do not believe the reasoning behind holding the pictures back, it is a convenient Bushian excuse and it is shameful. But it is becoming a trend with Obama and not too surprising.

[William769]

28. Well guess every political party has it's cheerleaders

One would have thought though this would had set us apart from the other political party. I guess not.

[zulchzulu]

35. So airing the photos on TV would do what good exactly for the Obama administration?

I'm guessing you're not a very good tic-tac-toe player, let alone know what chess is.

:rofl:

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Old Hank]

34. So you think Obama lied about the problem being our National Security?

The reason given by the President and many of those who support his refusal to release the photos is that our troops would be in danger.

But you tell us that he is just performing a great political move with the knowledge that the photos will be released anyway.

Do you believe that Obama was not honest when he cited the safety of our troops?

[zulchzulu]

36. If you read the options...

... you see that he believes that releasing the photos at this time (and not just letting the Justice Department keep them as evidence) would perhaps endanger the troops... which is based on the levels of increased violence when the Abu Ghraib photos were released.

Obama is not only being honest about his concern for the troops... he took away the issue from the Republicans and the right-wing media, who were looking to misrepresent Obama's intentions.

That said, the photos WILL be leaked at some point anyway.

[Old Hank]

38. So then he shouldn't call it a "brilliant political move," if there was no other choice

If a politician does the only thing that can allegedly be done, that is, protecting our troops lives, then how could we claim at the same time that he calculated, like a chess master, the move so as to gain political leverage?

[zulchzulu]

41. In anything in DC and at the Presidential level, it's always "political" by nature

Any decision made by a President has political repercussion no matter what anyone says. There are those that somehow think it's some Zen Monk floating on a carpet... it's all about political calculation.

[nichomachus]

40. So, if you're opposed to torture, you're a "far left purist"

This place gets more like Free Republic by the minute.

Pfffft.

[zulchzulu]

42. Take a reading comprehension class if you get the chance

Who said that anyone is for torture? Is Obama? Oh, wait, so the Presidential Order he signed on Day Two of his Presidency declaring torture illegal was just a daydream?

Yeesh... maybe this shit is over your head.

[Dragonfli]

51. He just thinks torture is a policy difference

I know it to be illegal. I noticed that no one is investigating the criminals.
If he does consider torture against the law, as it clearly is. I do not see why he doesn't get someone in the Justice Dept. that is willing to investigate and prosecute the many who have confessed to such crimes. I know this is something you haven't considered, but by our laws (and international laws) being ordered to commit crimes and told it's OK is not a valid defense.

[zulchzulu]

54. Again, the White House doesn't investigate. The Justice Department does... and IS...

http://www.newsweek.com/id/195678

Do some homework. There are investigations happening NOW. Right now. Now. Not later. Now...

Yeesh...

:crazy:

[Dragonfli]

62. Against the torture experts? I thought I heard some talk about a justice dept.

Executive reach around to protect them.

So then are they above the law or aren't they?
I believe the defense of this lawlessness was "they were following orders in good faith".
That defense just doesn't have any legal weight.

The only investigations of the CIA I am aware of have to do with their "creative" record management and destruction of evidence.

We know who committed torture. They are not being charged with it.

They were assured that they would not be.

If they ever are charged with their crimes, it will be against the stated wishes of your hero.

Transparency was just a lie and failing to comply with a lawful FOIA request looks like the lack of transparency is deliberate.

Are you new to DC politics or are you being deliberately obtuse as you watch the usual script being followed yet again.

[Chulanowa]

44. Honestly? I have no idea

One thing though... I wish people would stop saying "He's a dozen moves ahead!" when Obama does something of question... Sometimes a bad move really is a bad move. Dude's human, I'm pretty sure he's going to have his share of oopses and blunders. It's okay to say so, too.

That said, I hope these photos are going to the justice department.

[Dragonfli]

45. None of the above

The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one.

He promised transparency in government to get elected, then in practice hides evidence by FIGHTING a court ruling designed to provide transparency in government (FOIA).

He has claimed on several occasions, mostly to get elected, that the rule of law applies to all.
In practice he feels that a crime committed in the past is not to be prosecuted. At least in the case of the political class. "look ahead". "Torture experts not to be charged because they received orders." It would take a hypnotist to contort ones head enough to make this anything other than "some ARE above the law."

I could do this all day, but I find the whole thing rather discouraging because combined with a bank and insurance owned congress - all the work I did to help these forked tongue idiots get in power is nothing more than an expose' on my own gullibility.

Act like good republicans did with the corrupt GOP for your DLC friends, but please don't expect me to eat your bullshit and call it chocolate.

I do not need to be reminded that I chose to trust because I was gullible. I can only do my best not to fall for it again and eating bullshit is contrary to such a goal.

[leftofthedial]

46. none of the above

[spoony]

48. Plotting. Politically.

And you're happy if that's what he's doing? Just playing for politics? That's not something to be chuffed about, it's something to lament.

[TheKentuckian]

73. I don't lament having a guy that is effective at the game he is playing

You have to work with what you have in the environment you find yourself. What is deserved or to be hoped for has little bearing on the now.

[Phx_Dem]

49. For once, a poll that has accurate choices! n/t

[ShortnFiery]

50. That's the MOST inane and absurd statement that I have read in a long time. nt.

[Clio the Leo]

52. If you didn't already HAVE a gold star.....

.. I'd give you one for this thread!

[Binka]

74. Do You Have A Job

Do you work? You appear to have a lot of time on your hands.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

55. He listened to commanders on the ground !!! What McPain always

said O wasn't doing. haha.

On this, to me, the most important part - protecting human life.

[IndianaGreen]

56. Other: Obama becomes part of the cover up of war crimes and crimes against humanity

For those of you that choose to be ignorant of what the American republic is supposed to be about: We are a country of laws, not men!

[zulchzulu]

57. Read this if you are bitching and moaning that we need to release the torture photos

You're all decent gems of humanity. I'm a fan of all of you.

But perhaps you're missing how this works in DC and how the office of the President works and the judicial boundaries that our Founding Dudes and Dudettes put in place when this whole thang started.

Kings do investigations. They inquire on enemies and behead them. They make shit up on enemies and cut their arms off.

American presidents are supposed to NOT do investigations... unless you're Nixon. Then you die a karmic slow death.

The point is that Obama can't investigate the Bush BS from where he sits. He can say whatever he wants... but if the Justice Department gets wind of bad stuff, they investigate. And they actually are right now.

Read this: http://www.newsweek.com/id/195678

As I stated in my poll and implied as said stated, Obama knows how to play the GOP like a genius, get the military to get on his side and make asshats like Hannity, Limbaugh, Beck and the other college dropout former AM Classic Rock shockjocks turned Kunserv-o-Tive puppet monkeys have to put their crayons down on the torture photo issue.

That said, if you want to see bloody pieces of humans and chained, hacked prisoners of war in photo format, there are plenty of places on the net to see that garbage.

Should Obama be handing over Al Qaeda new photos to insert in their bootleg Quark XPress files to make brand new propaganda flyers to hand out? Should Obama not only indicate that Bush and others did torture but allow the mainstream media to show the new photos ad nauseum over and over and broadcast those images internationally showing just how fucked up some people are?

I guess if you want Obama to get off message and have to defend himself on the release of the photos and piss off moderate Republicans that are ready to turn blue, your best solution is to shoot yourself in the foot... right?

Anyway, the photos will be leaked out... maybe this weekend. Who the fuck knows. And, from my view, who the fuck cares.

Investigations are happening now. We'll see what happens.

In the meantime, sorry... not contorted, bloodied, electro-shocked, decastrated, black-eyed, knife-carved, dog-bitten, bat-banged, waterboarded victims bleeding out of their asses in photo form will be available.

Sure, the photos will haunt you. They will scare little kids and perhaps inspire nutjobs to do that to their wives on Super Bowl Eve.

And yes, the photos will make nice, new images for crazed people who want to behead you to put on posters while they say "Death to America" and burn American flags. A fantastic marketing and recruiting tool! Those Abu Ghraib torture photos were getting stale...

Of course, the photos will make for a great way to inspire hundreds of desperate loners to join in with the Taleban so they can continue beheading women for trying to teach other women how to read.

Heck, maybe even the photos being published will inspire a guy in an Afghan hut to make a roadside bomb to kill some American soldiers.

So contribute to the ACLU! I have a card and have been a member since the Reagan administration. I disagree with their stance on this, but know they are "meaning well".

[Name removed]

58. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grantcart]

59. President Obama doesn't want to have a major distraction when

he goes to Egypt in a few days and tries to completely recast American-Muslim relations in a major new speech.

[Blue_Tires]

68. i'm surprised more people haven't brought that up...

[stillcool]

61. It's so hard to keep any perspective..

when each day and every action is placed under a microscope independent of everything else that is going on. The truth is that I don't know what will happen. I don't know why these photos weren't released. I don't know what the status is of the investigation my Congressman is participating in. I just don't know. I must be the most ignorant person on DU.

[Tarheel_Dem]

63. I was even more convinced that he did the right thing when Big Eddie..

read that letter from the families of active duty military members, who are actually in harm's way right now. I agree that these photos will eventually come out, but frankly, I don't need to see them. And the ACLU will probably win on appeal anyway, and like you said, there are investigations underway as we speak.

[TexasObserver]

64. None of the above.

That's the proper choice.

[democracy1st]

77. Pres Obama isn't a mind reader or someone playing with magical cards

[cooolandrew]

80. Yeah as always the President is way ahead of us and only time reveals the virtue of his decisions.

I think utilizes a lot of advice of preevious Democratic Presidents too who have all been there and bought the t-shirt along with his ingenuity in handling politcally sensitive situations, we end up waking up and smelling the roses.