Hmm, a bit uncomfortable with the Catholic-bashing re Notre Dame....

[Jackeens]

Substitute, for example, 'Muslim' or 'Jew' for 'Catholic' in some of the comments in threads on the issue and surely most of us would object?

The truth is the world is jam-packed with Catholics, including my beloved mother, who are repulsed by the extremists who run their church, but are damned - unintended pun alert - if they're going to walk away and leave these creatures with no opposition. It is, she says, her church as much as it is theirs, and the God she knows and loves would be equally repulsed by them.

"God is badly served on earth," she always said to me when I ranted about the Catholic Church, which I blissfully abandoned 20 years ago, and I accept the sincerity of that view, even if I still don't know, after all these years, whether I believe or not.

Like so many of the Catholics who will welcome President Obama to Notre Dame my mother rejects the church's teaching on everything from gay rights to abortion to divorce to the use of condoms in the battle against HIV/AIDS, and so on.

I'm not well up on the Bible, but I'm reliably informed that it is interpreted and twisted to suit the agenda of the Pope of the day, and the current guy, in my humble opinion, borders on the evil. That's not Catholic-bashing, by the way, that's bigot-bashing. So, no, even though he's the Pope he doesn't necessarily represent Catholicism as his God might want it to be. I like to believe those exiled Catholic priests working with and for the people of central America and Africa are doing the real 'God's' work.

That's all, just wanted to remind you evil non-Catholics ( :-) ) that for every Notre Dame protester tomorrow there'll be more than a few decent sorts, like my Ma, who believe their God is a whole lot more loving and smart than those fruitcakes portray him to be.

[Ian David]

1. Unless you voted for the pope, it's not personal. n/t

[Jackeens]

4. I don't take it personally because I'm no longer a Catholic! But I DO feel for decent Catholics....

...when I read that stuff.

[AZBlue]

72. It doesn't matter if it's personal or not - it's not appropriate.

And apparently anyone doing it didn't hear a word our President said today.

[tularetom]

2. Catholic church is like a lot of other institutions

They need to get rid of the people my age (67) and turn the whole shitaroo over to some people who have a clue about WTF is going on in the world today. And they have to make a strong statement about the pedophiles in their midst.

And most of all they have to get rid of Pope Ratzenberger,

[firedupdem]

3. Rec'd. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

5. Wing nuts of any group get all the attention. Same with Catholics. nt

[Jackeens]

6. That's true, but would similar comments about Muslims and Jews be allowed on DU?? Hopefully not n/t

[Captain Hilts]

7. No, just as racist comments are not tolerated, but sexist and anti-military

ones are. I've known enough Catholics to know that, well, they're a very diverse crowd. I know a woman who attended Mass regularly throughout her life and when asked something about what the pope - JPII - said, her comment was "Who the hell asked him?" And she was, by any standard, a devout Catholic.

It's like a friend of mine says, "three Jews, four opinions." Catholics are pretty much in the same ballpark.

[Jackeens]

9. "Who the hell asked him?" Love it!

[Captain Hilts]

11. It was something about...

women who'd been raped in Yugoslavia.

Alice never missed Mass. And she was NOT joking when she said "Who the Hell asked him?"

[Jackeens]

12. If Alice was Pope I'd sign up again - a gem of a story. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

13. Ain't that the truth....but generalizing is dangerous...

I know a retired US Marine Corps Colonel who is a thorough socialist. Yet a lot of folks here don't have room for that. You can't get them to understand the Marines went to Iraq kicking and screaming.

Most US Catholics are pro-Choice.

[Chulanowa]

71. About Muslims? Of course

DU is no different from anywhere else on the internet when it comes to hating on Muslims and Mexicans.

[baldguy]

8. The only people "bashing" Catholics are those who are protesting Obama.

[Jackeens]

10. Not exactly true, some angry DUers have posted pretty sweeping anti-Catholic comments

I don't blame them for being angry - I am too - but we all need to remind ourselves how many 'decent' Catholics hold a different position to the hate mob.

[emilyg]

15. Not true

I just responded to a post that called Catholics crazy.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. No, you responded to a post that called the people causing the goings on at Notre Dame crazy

[emilyg]

21. And what? They're not Catholic?

[rwheeler31]

14. I thought when I was young that that Catholic meant universal

so all the the weird anti women laws were to help the world.

[mopinko]

16. posts like that

are against the rules. alert on them, and they should be taken down. takes a little time sometimes. but they do get removed.

[rufus dog]

18. The majority of Catholics voted for Obama

What we have is a media created controversy. I see the "protests at ND" and there are literally a handful of people. I have heard that petitioners have been outside Catholic Churches for the last month. (nice lessons to teach the kids assholes) These are the same people who ran down to the neighborhood tea bagging events. A few are trying to create a mob and it isn't working.

[dalaigh lllama]

19. The sad thing about the Catholic Church is that they still cite their dogma

as if it had been carved in stone since 33 A.D., when a lot of the stuff they're so stubborn about is just manmade rules picked up along the centuries.

Actually, if the early Church had gone with the Irish model instead of the Roman one, it would be a lot happier Church today. You might enjoy reading the series of mysteries written by Peter Tremayne based in Ireland in the seventh century that recounts the tug of war between the Irish and Roman POV's on which direction the Church should go. In Ireland, there were women priests and Bishops at the time, and brothers and sisters lived in communities together and married if they wished. (I got the "dalaigh" part of my name from these -- it's Irish for "lawyer")

[rug]

34. What's your basis for stating threre were women priests and bishops in 7th century Ireland?

[dalaigh lllama]

41. St. Brigid of Kildare and her successor Abbesses were bishops until the 1100's

from her biography:

"As Abbess of this foundation she wielded considerable power. Legends surround her, even her blessing as Abbess by Saint Mel has a story attached to it. According to the legend, the elderly bishop, as he was blessing her during the ceremony, inadvertently read the rite of consecration of a bishop and this could not be rescinded, under any circumstances. Brigid and her successor Abbesses at Kildare had an administrative authority equal to that of a Bishop until the Synod of Kells in 1152."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid_of_Kildare

from Peter Tremayne's synopsis of 'Fidelma's World' (seventh century Ireland):

"It should also be pointed out that, demonstrating women's coequal role with men, women were priests of the Celtic Church in this period. Brigid herself was ordained a bishop by Patrick's nephew, Mel, and her case was not unique. Rome actually wrote a protest, in the sixth century, at the Celtic practice of allowing women to celebrate the divine sacrifice of Mass."

http://www.sisterfidelma.com/fidelma.html

Peter Tremayne is the pseudonym for Peter Berresford Ellis, who is a respected Irish historian. Tremayne's 'Sister Fidelma' mysteries are rich in the history of the time, starting with the Synod of Whitby in 664:

"The Synod of Whitby was a seventh century Northumbrian synod where King Oswiu of Northumbria ruled that his kingdom would calculate Easter and observe the monastic tonsure according to the customs of Rome, rather than the customs practised by Iona and its satellite institutions. The synod was summoned in 664 at Saint Hilda's double monastery of Streonshalh (Streanoeshalch), later called Whitby Abbey."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Whitby

[rug]

42. Sorry, that's not very persuasive. Wikipedia cites a legend.

Sister Fidelma cites no authority.

I think the confusion has to do with Brigid's status as an abbess. While the head of a male abbey is called abbot and is in some ways analagous to a bishop, the head of a women's abbey is called an abbess and is neither ordained nor exercises episcopal functions.

[dalaigh lllama]

45. You're right, I can't back this up with other sources

I've been poking around "the Google" with no success. Although Tremayne/Ellis cites that Rome protested the Celtic women priests in the sixth century, I can't find what source he's referring to. OTOH, sources for such would perhaps be hard to ferret out -- the Church after all, was the only source for historical records for much of the Dark Ages, and I would guess they wouldn't have a problem excising such heretical doings. Interesting thought though, eh?

I have to say this particular topic resonates with me, because it is my earliest WTF memory in catechism class (altho, innocent that I was, I didn't think "WTF" of course). The nun was teaching us about the Sacraments, and explained that Holy Matrimony/Holy Orders were an either/or proposition -- one couldn't receive both. I assumed that she had opted for Holy Orders then, and was dismayed when she told me she couldn't receive Holy Orders. I remember saying "but that's not fair!" I don't remember what her explanation was, but it didn't cut it for me.
Thus began my descent into apostasy.:D

[rug]

52. It is interesting, the role of women in the church over the past 2,000 years.

I couldn't find anything else either, that's why I asked.

The Church has warranted plenty of criticism for many things, including its various lurching atitudes towards women over time. I just like to line up my ducks correctly before shooting them.

:hi:

[dalaigh lllama]

53. Looks like my duck-shooting ammo here

is denigrated to thumbed noses and rude noises. I'm afraid it won't bring down many ducks. :hi:

[quiller4]

62. University of San Diego Theologian Gary Macy

article published in Theological Studies September 2000
Lawrence Cunningham When Women Were Priests Commonweal Nov 4, 1994
Ordained Women in the Early Church editted and translated by Kevin Madigan and Carolyn Osiek, JHU Press, 2005
A History of Modern Ireland with a Sketch of Earlier Times Giovanni Costigan, Western Publishing Co., 1969.

If I had some of my bibliographies I could provide more. Most church historians now accept this as fact although that was still a minority view when I studied theology and church history 30+ years ago.

[dalaigh lllama]

65. Fantastic! Thank you

Wonder if any of these are online to peruse. Maybe I'll go poke around a bit.

[rug]

69. Most church historians? Can you name a few?

[billyoc]

20. Don't sweat it, real catholics aren't like those clowns anyway.

Any more than real muslims are terrorists.

http://www.catholicworker.org/

http://catholics-united.org/

[emilyg]

22. I don't think they are clowns.

They are people protesting - they have every right to do so.

[billyoc]

24. Ah, I actually meant Bill Donahue, Pat Buchanan, etc.

[Stinky The Clown]

26. But we have no right to call them clowns?

Or crazy?

[emilyg]

29. Do you want to call

everybody who disagrees with you a clown or crazy? I don't.

[Stinky The Clown]

70. No .... just the extremists

[Colobo]

35. Are you on their side?

[emilyg]

49. I'm on the side of people being

able to express their opinions. Both sides.

[babylonsister]

23. Here's the same opinion, couched differently:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8413940&mesg_id=8413940

The Phony Notre Dame Controversy as Seen by an Alumnus


I'm not religious, but "I'm Willing" Kinks? :shrug:

[vaberella]

25. You're right. The Nicean Council was made up of bastards. In any event, as a Catholic

--I notice the hate but I make it a point to differentiate since the Catholics I was raised with and no are not traditionalists in any way. Several people in my family are devotees of Catholicism and they are also people who have had abortions in their life and actually support abortion rights. But then most of the women in my family are Pro-Women and are anti-Papacy.

There is hate here...but if you realize where some of them are talking about those people are as minor as the Republican party if not more so.

[FrenchieCat]

27. Sorry about that!

:blush:

My daughter just married a Catholic from Boston.
And since his Mother is Irish and his father is Italian,
he will be a Catholic for life. :)

[Adelante]

32. I'm glad you're apologizing, friend

I know you wouldn't want to hurt people's feelings :)

Religion is always a touchy thing.

[Jackeens]

39. Hey FrenchieCat!

No need to apologise! This Notre Dame business makes me feel relieved not to be a Catholic any more too, if I was I'd somehow feel like I shared the 'blame' for the madness. I don't think you were offensive at all, it was just some other sweeping comments I read that I thought were a bit over the top.

[Hanse]

28. I've seen some "bashing" of Catholicism I've seen on DU tonight.

But all of it's been by former Catholics and directed towards the church itself, and not people who happen to be Catholic but aren't Donohue-style fuckwits.

[UrbScotty]

30. Catholic here

THANK YOU for saying this!

[tj2001]

31. I'm Catholic, and I don't give a rat's ass about Notre Dame or the Vatican

or Baptists or Jehovah's Witnesses or any other brand name either.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our second quarter 2009 fund drive.
Donate and you'll be automatically entered into our daily contest.
New prizes daily!



No purchase or donation necessary. Void where prohibited. Click here for more information.

[stray cat]

36. It a double standard on DU - some stereotypes and bashing seem acceptable

some groups and minorities are clearly more equal than others....

[jefferson_dem]

54. So true.

Some DUers consider the bashing of religious believers - in general or those of certain faith traditions - to be acceptable, even admirable. Not exactly beacons of tolerance...

[rvablue]

63. Sadly, I have to agree. n/t

[AZBlue]

73. Sadly true.

[snowdays]

37. The broad brushing of Catholics on this board by some posters is shameful.

[TankLV]

38. Yes, it would be the "same" for "muslim" or "jew" - but the topic at hand is CATHOLICS

and THEY are the ones being goddamned IDIOTS here and now...

[rug]

40. Hey, Tank, I'd like to hear more why you think I'm an idiot. Get back to me after Mass.

[emilyg]

50. We never see muslin or Jew bashing.

Don't you find that strange?

[TriMetFan]

43. Well said and Thank You.

As a Franciscan Catholic my stomach turns every time i see or hear people bashing Catholics.

[freddie mertz]

44. As a Catholic-born and raised atheist

I wish nothing but the best for all of my fellow Catholics (including my own family!), and for the future of the Church.

I would like to see the leadership fundamentally changed and redesigned. It's true.

But that is not, to my mind, an anti-Catholic position. I would just like to see the status

I am, of course, disgusted by the hijacking of the Church's public image by a handful of lunatics at Notre Dame today.

Many devout Catholics who are pro-life are embarrassed as well.

I am old enough to remember going to my church to organize in suppirt of civil rights and integration (in Boston) and to gather support of the United Farm Worker's strike.

I wish we could hear more about the good things being done by Catholics, and less about the hateful antics of these fascist stooges.

[TriMetFan]

46. Well you have pointed out some thing we do.

We feed the hunger and give shelter to homeless families. I also like to remind everyone that the Catholic Church has funded science and the medical field. Will any way I'm off to Church, cause my youngest is doing his First Communion this morning.

[freddie mertz]

47. Thanks. These are worth remembering.

The Church is also, in its upper reaches at least, a lot more open to intellectual speculation than the spectacle of these crazies might lead some to think.

Meanwhile, have a great morning.

I had my FC over forty years ago,

When they told me I was going to get a "Missal" as a gift, I thought they meant some kind of rocket!

Those were the days.

[emilyg]

51. God Bless. What a day for your family.

[JerseygirlCT]

61. Amen. nt

[krabigirl]

48. Well, I'm not bashing all Catholics, just the super-fundie nutty ones.

Unfortunately, they are stealing the spotlight from the saner types. (My parents, sadly, are now firmly in the former camp. We just don't speak about anything other than polite things.)

[walldude]

55. I vote that all religions are open season.

I say we bash all religions equally. After seeing Rumsfeld's little biblical briefings I have had it with "religion" in general.

[goclark]

56. I'm with your Mom and thanks for the post

As a Christian it bothers me when people put us all in a bag and say we are crazy for believing.

My faith is important in my life and I respect those that don't share my beliefs.

But the bashing in not kind IMO.

That is not nice.

[Wednesdays]

57. K&R

:kick:

[OHDEM]

58. I'm catholic, but this current ND thing is another in a long line...

...of things that make me feel distant from the church. I think the Church has been taken over by people hell-bent on telling everyone how to life and that makes them no better than religious zealots of any stripe.

I know there are decent people in the Church, but most of them (us) are outnumbered. I've mentioned before that we're enrolling my son in Catholic school (kindergarten next year). I know I have some battles ahead of me and wonder if involving my children in Catholic school will be the final thing that pushes me AWAY from the Church.

Also, is anyone in the media asking how many of the idiot protestors are even students at ND?

[MarianJack]

59. True, Jackeens!

We are Catholics and our Pastor may well help us find a place to live.

My wife and I think as your Mom. Among our closest friends are a lesbian couple whom we'd allow to baby-sit our son WAY before any fundie nutcase. One of these wonderful ladies says that she likes playing with our son because he brings out the "little boy" in her.

As far as the current Pope goes, the more I see him, the happier I am that he was elected at the age of 78. He is clearly a place-holder for a few years while the Church decides what direction to take in the Post John-Paul II world.

On a personal note Jackeens. THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart!

PEACE! :patriot:

[JerseygirlCT]

60. Yup, yup, yup. Absolutely. nt

[rvablue]

64. Thank you X 100 for phrasing this so well and diplomatically.

And I think it is all that more poignant having come from an ex-Catholic.

[nichomachus]

66. I feel free to "bash" any group

That spent millions of dollars and told lie after lie to take away my civil rights. Screw 'em.

(And I was raised Catholic -- 157 years of Catholic school -- or maybe it just seemed like that.)

[LostinVA]

67. Many on here trash the Catholics, espcially Irish Catholics

As much as they trash Teh Gays.

Most of my family and friends (including some on here) are Liberal Catholics.

[Spazito]

68. Well said, Jackeens!

As a former Catholic, in the eyes of the institution that has caused me to become 'former, I differentiate between those of the Catholic FAITH from those in the hierarchy of the CHURCH.

I despise the hypocrisy of the Church while respecting people of faith.

There is a vast difference, imo, between religion and faith.