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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:18 PM
Original message
We Are Winning--Be Passionate DU, But Be Civil
While I don't agree with everything the President has done so far or is doing, it is frustrating to watch some of the derisive commentary here. I am not at all upset that we democrats are not in lockstep, nor do I have a problem with people making rational critiques or "holding his feet to the fire" on issues that are dear to them.

That is different from some of the "Obama=Bush," "new president is just like the old president," ""I am regretting my vote" and similar comments that have hit this board of late. Sometimes it is a member upset about their primary issue--whatever that happens to be. Often it seems to be folks that are IMO farthest left--pro-socialism, anti-capitalism, war is never acceptable, get out right now, etc.. I believe those positions are absolutely arguable and should be welcome here, but I really dislike when those opinions are expressed as an outrage against Obama as if his actions are some kind of betrayal. Specifically, the four positions I noted above could not be construed to be things Obama agreed with--ever. Posters should absolutely and unreservedly express their positions on those issues, but should not be outraged that Obama has abandoned them on those things because he was never with them.

It's no secret I believe the President is doing very, very well, but I don't think he's been perfect. Just better in his first 115 days than any president in my lifetime. Many here really don't like his pragmatism. I believe it is one of his strongest attributes.

I wish he had been a little less generous with Wall Street in the bailouts, but beyond simple political pragmatism, I am not terribly upset where that whole situation stands today. Some here want to punish Wall St. types so badly that they don't seem to care a whole lot about the fallout if some of those big bastards fail. Fact is, shit rolls downhill and if the big boys fail, the burden would be borne not by the fucking fat cats but by the rest of us. Yes, there should be a lot more prosecution of fat cat individuals for financial malfeasance, but if their institutions fail, the fallout below them in unemployment and lost wealth in pension plans and 401k accounts would be even more disastrous. It is a fine tightrope the administration is walking... and I would like to see more subtle policy tilts in favor of the poor and middle class. But I think the "Let'em Fail" crowd seems to have too little concern for the collateral damage that approach would likely leave in its wake.

The auto makers bailout has less people here upset, but the positions run the gamut. Some here, often those that are angry that Detroit has been far too slow to embrace fuel efficiency and greener vehicles, seem to have a "Let'em Fail" attitude with GM and Chrysler. Others are upset that policy was much more generous to banks and should have been stronger for the car companies. I hope they're in the right place now, but only time will tell. I am pleased that the auto workers have a large ownership stake--we all should be hoping that pays off for them.

I would like to see some prosecution from the torture scandal. The most obvious ones IMO are the lawyers that gave the way-over-the-line legal cover. There are good reasons, both political and legal, that make prosecutions beyond those a little dicier. I would love to see Cheney frog-marched, but I doubt that can happen (then again, if he keeps running his fucking mouth...). As for the pictures, I understand the President's current position. Perhaps the court will force the release as they did with the memos, thus providing the President with some political cover.

I will be upset if the health care result does not include a public option. For reasons explained well by Dr. Dean and others, I believe that's the right way to go. And the public option should be at least as good as Medicare. The two-tier system in France is being lauded by many here and my hope would be that the incorporation of the public option would be a catalyst toward a similar solution for the U.S..

The republicans divide and conquer strategy has been quite effective since Reagan's campaign in 1980. With incredible success on wedge issues-and leveraging irrational fear after 9/11--Rove and company took this strategy to new heights. Their three decades of exploiting rifts between the moderate democrats and the more progressive democrats allowed them to siphon enough of the middle to gain and stay in power. It also allowed them to ram through much of the radical right wing agenda--despite the fact that they rarely could get much better than a 50/50 split in actual numbers.

After watching the right wing, the fundamentalists and the greedy corporatists get their way so easily for much of the last 30 years--and stunningly so in the last eight years--the far left is understandably frustrated that the democratic president they helped get elected isn't leading the charge to get their way fast enough on their agenda. I contend that in any number of areas the administration has already accomplished much--with much left to do. The more progressive budget, the Ledbetter Act, the remarkable shift (with significant but sometimes subtle changes) in foreign policy and the way the rest of the world looks at the U.S., are all evidence we're going in the right direction IMO.

He is about to replace Souter on the Court and will likely have at least two more spots to fill in his first term. If he can hold this coalition of progressives and moderates together, he will possibly have one or two more spots to fill in his second term.

The President is walking an incredible tightrope. The progress he is making must be done in a way that does not give the right wing the opportunity to divide and conquer again. So far what's left of the GOP leadership is pandering to their base and that's a great thing. Unless our side screws up, the table is set for them to endure a long time as the minority--as they did following the Great Depression. The stage is set for an unprecedented pick up of democratic seats in the 2010 off year elections. With Obama's approval rating steady in the mid-60s--remarkable considering the MSM supported RW noise machine right now--reelection by landslide in 2012 is not out of the question, especially if the economy recovers in a measurable way.

So I say all democrats should make their voices heard. Hold the administration's feet to the fire on those issues you are passionate about. But do so in a civil way without the inflamed rhetoric. Help our pragmatic President continue moving policies in the right direction--and encourage him to be more and more progressive.




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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Pitch perfect ...
:patriot:
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. One of the most respected DU members wrote an interesting reply in another thread...
...that I think is worth reading and which puts things into perspective.

It made an otherwise difficult week of Obama bashing far less frustrating for me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8410362

:donut:
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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. I believe some are pursuing that agenda
which is not one I can support. And I'm with that poster--it's not realistic.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. And, the failure of that approach is a success for the Opposition.
It's suicidal, really.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. thanks for that


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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Thx for that link.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. Can't go wrong with The Magistrate ... n/t
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Most excellent and sensible post! Thank You! n/t
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countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. Great post.
Your DU name fits.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'd like there to be less Obama=Bush bullshit and other non-constructive crap...
Edited on Sun May-17-09 12:25 PM by NYC_SKP
I've been reading and hearing. (Not that I expect it to end. Oh, no, I don't expect that.)

For example:

"Meet the new Boss..."

"Obama/Bush..."

Whether it's Politico, or Rachel, or Cable news, let me just say clearly:

"Meh..."

EDIT: Replace "Fuck Off." with "Meh..." in the spirit of the OP. :P
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I agree 100% It's ridiculous.. n/t
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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. Excellent post!
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
7. Let me know when we have had one progressive victory from this administration.
Edited on Sun May-17-09 12:28 PM by Warren Stupidity
So far, it has been pretty much a zero. You cannot manage one item in your essay - not one positive achievement. And that is the problem. Yes indeed we are not going backwards right now, and for that I do not regret my vote, my money, my efforts, but is that really enough?

Instead of a list of things we can be proud of, the best you can offer is "The stage is set for an unprecedented pick up of democratic seats in the 2010 off year elections."

And when that new congress is seated and the Banksters and MIC Thugs still have control, what then?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
28.  Don't be stupid..it's not
helping your cause..do your own research.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
34. Didn't you get the news? All of the millions of Americans angry at the bailouts are "the left"
And the millions all over the nation who can't believe that we're still in Iraq are also "the farthest left". That includes the many veterans and retired military officers who have been saying for years now that we need to get the hell out right away. They're all "the farthest left!"
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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Actually, I made no correlation between the far left and
the bailouts. You did. And as a veteran myself I have nothing but respect and admiration for the brave veterans you cite. Personally, instead of adding a few months to the Iraq pullout timetable he proposed in the campaign, I wish he would have shortened the time frame.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. you're engaging in vast hyperbole there
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Happyhippychick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. Yes Yes Yes! No need to be drones but no need to self-mutiliate either.
Great post!
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Bushknew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. Obama, politics is complicated. Doing the right thing is easy i.e ….


Getting out of Iraq & Afghanistan

Showing leadership in lowering Credit card interest.

Not ignoring single payer.
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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. I don't disagree, so long as there
is credit given when due. Much has been accomplished, or started, in a relatively short time, historically speaking. I want those things, too! I also want DADT rescinded.
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Bushknew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. I can't say there hasn't been progress & truthfully it's still early but so far ...
Edited on Sun May-17-09 06:28 PM by Bushknew
he's been absent on limiting credit card interest & letting single payer advocates speak.

After all, he is not the decider. "He"or Pelosi can not say single payer is off the table.

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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. I am with you. I am frustrated at the pace of change, but I feel Obama is
doing the best possible in the environment as it stands. This majority in this country are in the center, they would be VERY uncomfortable with big changes done quickly. Patience is the way to go. If he plays his cards right, and we sweep in 2010, then he can make bolder moves. Right now, we still have to deal with loud, bitter Repubs over every little change. He's done an excellent job so far. Let's give him some room.

(I'm not saying I'm not disappointed by some of the things he's done, just not willing to give up on him. He's a politician - and a very good one at that. Glad I'm not the POTUS :wow: )
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centristgrandpa Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. but beyond simple political pragmatism...
The last time i looked, main street was a two lane road. The three major issues most concerning to the American consumers was; bankruptcy, foreclosure reform and HC (single payer), these seem to have been taken off the mainstream plate. It's about fair proportions, big business seemingly won at every turn. Counting all the money shovel out to them thugs (over trillions), how much of did we get? a shared 10 dollars off our pay roll taxes. To be fair, shouldn't we get more help? :hurts:
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classof56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. Well said. Thanks! nt
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R
:kick:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
19. k and r


You do realize that you are speaking to Democrats? lol
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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Of course. As Will Rogers said
"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thank you for such a well addressed OP for all of us
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
24. Who defines "civil"? n/t
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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Its sort of like pornography, you know uncivil when you see it
For example, calling the President a criminal or a traitor just because he does not agree with you is not civil. BTW calling Freepers assholes, while redundant, is not over the line IMO.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
25. Great points, and we share many of the same concerns.....
When folks witness what the media is capable of stiring up(see pelosi shift and Tempest in a teapot protest coverage of both the Teabaggers and the ND old people against Abortion), to even think that Obama could be doing everything we, progressives, want him to and to do it Now is simply a suspension of reality to make a point.

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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
26. The tone the President struck at Notre Dame today
in the face of some who are as opposed to certain of his positions as possible, is exactly what I am talking about. He basically said on the issue of choice he is diametrically opposed to the anti-choice position, but he welcomes the debate. And the debate can be civil, without the sides demonizing each other. His speech today IMO was a victory for civil discourse.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
27. Great post, given the shithole left behind by 8 years of Bush
President Obama has done a very fine job.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
32. "Often it seems to be folks that are IMO farthest left--pro-socialism, anti-capitalism..."
"...war is never right, get out right away..."

Nice straw-man you've manufactured. Those who are rightfully disgusted with Obama's continuing to bail out Wall St. with our tax dollars are "the farthest left"? That's what constitutes "the left"? And those who want EFCA passed are "pro-socialists/anti-capitalist"? Single-payer advocates = "the farthest left"?

"I wish he had been a little less generous with Wall Street in the bailouts..."

That statement should be included in the dictionary to illustrate the meaning of the word "milquetoast". Or maybe the expression "mealy-mouthed." Somehow, the idea that the banks be nationalized rather than propped up with trillions of taxpayer dollars while still under private and incompetent control seems to have escaped your imagination.

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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I made an observation, and a pretty accurate one at that
Edited on Sun May-17-09 08:57 PM by Still Sensible
No straw man at all. Those four areas I noted are ones where Obama has been vilified here quite often especially of late. My point is not that those who take those positions should not be welcome here or should not express those views. But rather that I appreciate their willingness to contribute... until they state those views in such a way that paints the President as a traitor or a sellout. In those four areas mentioned, it is not possible for him to be a betrayer, because he never supported those positions anyway.

As I said in the OP, by all means make your voice heard... Hold the administration's feet to the fire on those issues you are passionate about. But do so in a civil way without the inflamed rhetoric.

I would take the same position with blue dogs that were using inflamed rhetoric and hyperbole. But they don't come around much anymore.

And actually, you are the one throwing the straw men around. I didn't mention ECFA at all, and by the way I support it. Nor did I attack single payer advocates.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. You made a pretty bizarre observation, is what you should have said
Edited on Sun May-17-09 08:58 PM by brentspeak
Especially since Obama stated many times during the primaries and election campaign his support of both EFCA and single-payer. Did you bother to do your research before you penned your self-congratulating response?

"I would take the same position with blue dogs that were using inflamed rhetoric and hyperbole."

The words "the farthest left" preemptively invalidated that particular statement.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. i think your interpretation is mistaken
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. no, the post is spot on brent.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
38. absolutely right...in fact,
our pragmatic President issued the invitation regarding his decisions..."make me" do the right thing! Remember that?

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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. And that's exactly what we all should be doing.
Civilly and rationally and passionately.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. well, that rational part can get to be a challenge when the passion part gets going...
which of course can be helped by a huge helping of civility! Our President sets a beautiful example IMO (fresh from watching his speech at ND).

:fistbump:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #39
51. Yep!
Great OP.

Thanks. :)
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
41. I'm with you, Still Sensible
Many here really don't like his pragmatism. I believe it is one of his strongest attributes.

Amen.

Happy to rec.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
42. sorry to use all caps but THIS IS THE BEST POST I HAVE EVER READ ON DU
Edited on Sun May-17-09 10:51 PM by dionysus
:thumbsup:
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
43. my critique of obama has nothing to do with rightist "divide and conquer".
it might actually be argued that obama is the one doing the dividing, i.e., abandoning the left.

my critique has to do with putting politicians in their correct categories.

bailing out banks, putting bankers in charge of our economic survival, and failing to pursue the bush, inc. criminals are two major errors that separate obama from me.

if obama wants my support he's going to have to act like it.

we have sufficient democratic seats for just about anything the party could want, if in fact the party could vote progressively in unison. but that's never going to happen, because many democrats are as good as republicans (see the new DEM senator from pennsylvania, for example).

it is just like an entrenched democrat to keep telling the left they cannot have what they want but that we have to keep supporting the democrats.

sell it someplace else. we don't need more democrats, we need more leftists.
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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Thank you for a thoughtful response
It is exactly what I'm talking about. You certainly disagree with most if not all of my OP, but did so in a rational and civil way.

BTW, I wholeheartedly agree with much of what you say... "...many democrats are as good as republicans (see the new DEM senator from pennsylvania, for example)." I too would like to see some people pay for the torture carried out in our name and I really believe the whole story needs to be told.

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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. there are many people who would not have responded as you did...
...to my post. many here (especially if i weren't on so many ignore lists) would have vituperatively challenged every line. they would have thought me quite impolite for speaking out against obama. i thank you for your kindness. we can let each others' words speak for themselves.
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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Without casting aspersions on whole groups of people
I suspect that to some degree the fact that we're both in our fifties has something to do with it. Not necessarily that age confers wisdom, just that we are old enough to remember a time (pre-1985) when political disagreement didn't require vitriol and we don't automatically jump down someone's throat just because their opinion differs. Don't get me wrong, sometimes you have to bring out the invective and beat back the bullshit.

You seem to me to be someone that doesn't have to bash to make a point. In any event I hope we get to talk to each other on the issues down the road,
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. you don't remember the vitriol of the sixties?
for the record, it is only in my later years that i am learning to be a little more conciliatory in my political discussion.

for one thing, i am frankly very tired of beating my head against the wall.

also, i don't have time to be up on every detail of every issue. my approach is one of general principles first, i.e., peace, justice, democracy, transparency, anti-corruption, the similarities between the parties, etc. when i see points that are at odds with these very basic principles i speak up, in plain and certain terms.

you may note that many of my posts do not contain much, if any, text. i'll make a simple, short statement about what i think is a serious flaw in logic or a misstatement about or misinterpretation of history. these are challenging, confrontational statements or questions, and frequently are taken as such by disagreers. but most often i get no response at all. flaw-finding is a thankless task. i've learned to accept that. to some extent i can tolerate invective/vitriol/bullshit, but i cannot tolerate the stance of certainty in one who is obviously wrong.
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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Oh sure there was vitriol in the sixties, but
while the most ardent of the two sides certainly demonized the other, it didn't seem to me to be SOP for everybody. IMO what changed was starting in the 70s, after Watergate, the vitriol went mainstream.

The "certainty" you speak of actually has been a conservative tactic that has often worked with the uninformed masses. And Rove used it very effectively. It doesn't matter if it's bullshit, if you say it enough and get the media to quote you saying it enough, the masses will believe it. One of the best examples is the bullshit Iraq/9-11 connection. Last time I saw a poll some months ago more than 30% believed that Saddam had something to do with 9/11. Unbelievable.

Of course, the republicans have simply turned into a kool-aid drinking bunch of zombies. On so many issues, reality has been rendered meaningless to them. All they care about is that they are drinking and regurgitating the fundamentalist-supply side-faux patriotism-tax cuts kool-aid. To them morality is a relative proposition. One's actions can be so far removed from what they are preaching (see Vitter, Bristol Palin, etc.), but so long as that individual continues to spout the dogma, it doesn't matter.

And crap like that--particularly when it works over time--just makes it incredibly hard for those of us capable of independent thought to "tolerate the stance of certainty" many people have.
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 11:04 PM
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47. Well said. Thank you for this OP
nuff said :thumbsup:
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
48. I agree.
Edited on Sun May-17-09 11:29 PM by billyoc
Let's be civil and nice, but not to the point of obeying the rules of debate as defined by liberal blackmail(in which discomfort caused by a challenge is seen as some vague form of harassment). --Dwayne Monroe http://monroelab.net/blog/

*Edited to add attribution
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Shanti Mama Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 11:39 AM
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50. Bravo!
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