Obama ain't no Lefty. Most of us on the left knew that but prefered him over McCain.

[inthebrain]

I wanted to throw my two cents in on this topic after some of the smoke cleared as to why people criticize Obama. Hopefully some folks give it some thought before offering a knee jerk reaction.

Obama is not a lefty and the Democrats are not a leftist party. A lot of us on the left know that and have known that long before Bush came into being. We've known that our whole lives. The Democratic party is kind of the party of left overs. The Republicans are a hard right party giving the extreme radicals a home.

The Democrats are a center right party. They have never been a vehicle for social or economic justice anymore than the Republicans have. There are social differences on issues of abortion and a stance of "do no harm" towards the GLBT community. As a whole they don't look to change the status quo but they also don't do a lot to worsen the social and economic conditions of the GLBT community.

Real social and economic justice does not come from the government or politicians. It comes from the people and their voices, wishes and desires have always been, through the course of history, very different from the government.

Real change comes from the people. It comes from fighting back not in the ballot box but in your communities through acts of dissobedience.

Many of us on the left know the score, and despite wanting Obama over McCain, also knew what he was about. No different than any other president or politician that promises "change". You'll find that through that many politicians, whether claiming to be left, right or center, often promise leftist sounding reforms when vying for office. When they get into office it's a very different story as they all tend to shift very rightward. And yes, even folks like Reagan, Bush and McCain all ran to the left of their position as well.

As I said earlier, real change comes from the people. This is true of EVERY SINGLE social or economic reform that's ever taken place in this country. The left knew this when walking Obama into office is was well aware that mearly voting wasn't enough. There is still a hell of a battle ahead and it's not going to take place in the ballot box. It's going to come from citizens RESISTING.

That's where a lot of people are coming from in their criticisms of Obama. We are not like Republicans who blindly follow their leader no matter what.

[Cant trust em]

1. "most of us on the left"

Speak for yourself.

[ShortnFiery]

15. Yes, continued rendition, electronic surveillance, military tribunals, no repeal of DADT,

waffling on time line to close GITMO, continued TORTURE at Git-mo by elite unit, continued OCCUPATIONs in Iraq and Afghanistan AND a surge this summer in the latter.

Damn, what LBJ was to WAR-ESCALATION in the 1960s, OBAMA is to the same in the early 21st Century ...

And yes, it is fucking VILE! :grr: :nuke:

[Cant trust em]

19. Excellent. You have now spoken for yourself. NT

[ShortnFiery]

20. These factors don't matter to you? They do matter to others. nt.

[stevenleser]

26. For one thing, I dont concede your list. Several items are in error

starting with the fact that there is no more torture happening.

[snake in the grass]

31. Unfortunately,

that is not entirely true. Amy Goodman interviewed a soldier stationed at Gitmo 2 weeks ago who talked about what is still going on there. They always clean up their act when an official comes for a visit, but, otherwise, it's business as usual.

[stevenleser]

34. One report from one soldier. That is not a reliable report. (n/t)

[snake in the grass]

37. Perhaps.

What makes me think twice about it is simply the question of whether those soldiers and marines, who were involved in this, can just stop. It is quite plausible that some of the sicker individuals will take it upon themselves to continue the "disciplinary" measures on these "worst of the worst". I'm not saying it happens in accordance with President Obama's orders or even those of the commanding officer. While I was in the Army, I knew plenty of guys who would get off on this sort of thing. Furthermore, the internal reaction force or IRF is known for its over-the-top brutality. Check out Sean Baker:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Baker

And this is what they do to their own. Imagine if you are a goat herder from Afghanistan.

We will be certain when Gitmo is closed, once and for all.

[Cant trust em]

33. That's not what I said.

I just don't need anyone to speak for me or my beliefs as part of "the left".

[stray cat]

2. I certainly knew he was a relative moderate and no one claimed he was Kucinich

[stopbush]

3. Are you saying the civil rights movement and the Ds embrace of the same

wasn't a leftist action? Are you saying that LBJ knowingly throwing away the votes of the solidly Democratic South by signing the Civil Rights Act into law wasn't a leftist action?

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. Exactly. It was liberal, but hardly leftist.

There is a difference, despite what we are told by Faux News.

[inthebrain]

8. LBJ fought every ounce of civil rights legislation in his home state of Texas.

The Democrats were not on board with Civil Rights. If you read speeches from Maalcom X and MLK you would have been full aware of that fact.

The people in power at the time had their hand FORCED by MLK and Malcom X.

Here's a speech from Malcom X;

I'm not a politician, not even a student of politics; in fact, I'm not a student of much of anything. I'm not a Democrat, I'm not a Republican, and I don't even consider myself an American. If you and I were Americans, there'd be no problem....

Well, I am one who doesn't believe in deluding myself. I'm not going to sit at your table and watch you eat, with nothing on my plate, and call myself a diner. Sitting at the table doesn't make you a diner, unless you eat some of what's on that plate.

Being here in America doesn't make you an American. Being born here in America doesn't make you an American. Why, if birth made you American, you wouldn't need any legislation, you wouldn't need any amendments to the Constitution, you wouldn't be faced with civil-rights filibustering in Washington, D.C., right now....

No, I'm not an American. I'm one of the 22 million black people who are the victims of Americanism. One of the 22 million black people who are the victims of democracy, nothing but disguised hypocrisy. So, I'm not standing here speaking to you as an American, or a patriot, or a flag-saluter, or a flag- waver-no, not I. I'm speaking as a victim of this American system. And I see America through the eyes of the victim. I don't see any American dream; I see an American nightmare....

When white people are evenly divided, and black people have a bloc of votes of their own, it is left up to them to determine who's going to sit in the White House and who's going to be in the dog house.

It was the black man's vote that put the present administration in Washington, D.C. Your vote, your dumb vote, your ignorant vote, your wasted vote put in an administration in Washington, D.C., that has seen fit to pass every kind of legislation imaginable, saving you until last, then filibustering on top of that. And your and my leaders have the audacity to run around clapping their hands and talk about how much progress we're making. And what a good president we have.

If he wasn't good in Texas, he sure can't be good in Washington, D.C. Because Texas is a lynch state. It is in the same breath as Mississippi, no different; only they lynch you in Texas with a Texas accent and lynch you in Mississippi with a Mississippi accent.

And these Negro leaders have the audacity to go and have some coffee in the White House with a Texan, a Southern cracker - that's all he is - and then come out and tell you and me that he's going to be better for us because, since he's from the South, he knows how to deal with the Southerners. What kind of logic is that?....

In this present administration they have in the House of Representatives 257 Democrats to only 177 Republicans. They control two-thirds of the House vote. Why can't they pass something that will help you and me? In the Senate, there are 67 senators who are of the Democratic Party. Only 33 of them are Republicans. Why, the Democrats have got the government sewed up, and you're the one who sewed it up for them.

And what have they given you for it? Four years in office, and just now getting around to some civil-rights legislation. Just now, after everything else is gone, out of the way, they're going to sit down now and play with you all summer long - the same old giant con game that they call filibuster. All those are in cahoots together...

They're playing that old con game. One of them makes believe he's for you, and he's got it fixed where the other one is so tight against you, he never has to keep his promise.

http://www.africawithin.com/malcolmx/malcolm_speaks.htm

[cali]

11. that was years before he led the Senate

read Caro. And no, it wasn't just external pushing. Again, learn some history.

[Orsino]

32. I think that the undeniable, if slow gains in the civil rights movement...

...have been offset in part by the terrible consolidation of corporate power over us all. The repeated championing of corporate rights over individual liberty has been a rightward march, eagerly joined by most Democratic "leaders."

Most Americans seem to like it that way, or fail to see it as much of a problem.

[MADem]

4. I don't need a bunch of "acts of dissobedience(sic)" thanks anyway.

Protest all you want, if you want, but don't ask me to join you. I disagree with your positioning of the party, too. We run the gamut from conservative Democrats to very liberal ones. Big tent, and all that.

The President has no ability to change law. That's Congress's job--if you're going to protest, you might as well aim at the people who craft legislation, rather than blaming the guy who signs or vetoes it.

All Obama can do is nudge the Congress. He has a lot of stuff on his plate right now, and four years to do the nudging.

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. Actually, you do need a bunch of acts of civil disobedience.

Without civil disobedience, only white men would have the vote. Without civil disobedience there would have never been a labor movement. Without civil disobedience there would have never been OSHA laws protecting the work environment, or even a 40 hour work week (remember them?).

Without agitation from the left, the Democratic center would do nothing.

Yeah, we're a big tent but the tentpole is set way to the right - there is no gentle, equilateral bell curve of right-middle-left dems.

Obama himself MIGHT be center, rather than center right, but if we expect any action on the left from him it is only going to be because we leftists make ourselves heard disproportionately to our numbers. We KNEW he would not back single-payer. We KNEW he was 'right' enough to be invited into the DLC - and though he didn't limit himself by accepting that invitation, the invitation said enough by itself.

Obama will NOT nudge congress unless WE nudge both him and congress. That's just the way it is, living with the DLC and blue dogs.

[MADem]

12. Like I said, if you want to protest, you knock yourself out.

I don't "need" any civil disobedience RIGHT NOW. I'm tired. I have had enough. I want to rest on my laurels for a bit, thanks anyway.

I would never think of telling you that you shouldn't protest. Please return the favor and don't tell me that I "need" to--that's freedom for you.

I'm not so dissatisfied with Obama that I feel he needs to be carped at. I think he's doing a decent job with a lot of distractions and BS.

YMMV, and if it does, fine.

[zipplewrath]

5. Wasn't sure

LBJ was pretty "leftist" for his day, great society and civil rights act. So was Truman. Sure, they could have been MORE lefty. FDR was pretty progressive. You're right that a Kucinich or a Nader isn't ever going to be elected. But Clinton and Obama have been about as "right" as a dem can be and I don't think I agree with the implication of your post that somehow that's about as good was we'll ever do.

[cali]

6. Learn some history.

"The Democrats are a center right party. They have never been a vehicle for social or economic justice anymore than the Republicans have."

codswallop. and while the democratic party, as a whole, is not a leftist party, large chunks of it are. There are a significant number of progressive dems in the congress, for example.


As for the GLBT community and the dem party, again that varies from state to state with the national party lagging behind. But what do you think happened in VT? It was the dems that pushed through marriage equality. Same is true in NH and ME.

Real change comes from both the people and people serving in gov't and other leadership positions. There's ample evidence of this: MLK, FDR and LBJ come to mind. The ballot box is part of implementing change, as is civil disobedience.

Right wing repukes do not support leftist sounding reforms while running for office. Bush, Reagan and McCain did not do so despite your claim.

As for who Obama is, well, that remains to be seen. His history and record indicate that he's a complex person, not easily parsed or catagorized. The only place I agree with you is that blindly following him is not an option.

[frazzled]

9. He is indeed a lefty

Left-handed to the core. Don't you ever watch him writing all crunched up?

Now go be disobedient.

[emulatorloo]

13. I knew he was a left of center moderate. To some he was like a mirror reflecting what they wanted

to see.

He never said "Change" meant overthrowing the capitalist system. but some seemed to hear that anyway.

He is also a pragmatist, so he is not going to please single issue people.

Good things have come from the Democratic Party. They are wrong sometimes but not every time.

Center Right is I think an unfair characterization of the Democratic Party.

As to how politicians run

Dems run to the left in the primaries
Republicans run to the right in the primaries

Then they both move center for the general.

However that being said Obama was significantly more liberal in his positions than McCain.

He has been more liberal in his presidency so far that say, Clinton. Not on every issue. But again he doesn't "March LockStep" either.

You are right that things have to come from the people -- I think especially in issues of equality. The point is to put pressure on the politicians to do the right thing when it comes to gay marriage rights and so on. In my state the republican congresspeople are rabidly anti-gay marriage. The dems are anti-discrimination. So there is some progress being made.

[amborin]

35. O is NOT left of center, never was!

and your post is disingenuous

of course 'change' did not mean 'overthrow the capitalist system'

but there's LOTS of room between that extreme objective and where we are today, with financial corporations ruling the place, etc

[FrenchieCat]

14. Hopefully some folks give it some thought before offering a knee jerk reaction.

:rofl:

Considering that many are only willing to give this President 4 months
for what normal Presidents were given at least 4 years to do,
Knee Jerk is about all of the exercise some do around here!

[ShortnFiery]

16. Thoughtful will NOT include sending our children within a Poverty Draft, to kill and die

people who we have no personal hatred for ... all in order to ENTERTAIN the ruling elite and their continued desire to concentrate power and wealth in the hands of VERY FEW.

No, I will not sacrifice my child for USA Leaders' (both parties) penchant for ENDLESS WAR. :thumbsdown:

[emulatorloo]

17. So when did Obama enact a "Poverty Draft". I must have missed it.

n/t

[ShortnFiery]

18. You don't think that we are presently in "a poverty draft?" with regard to Military enlistments?!?

Really? :eyes:

[stevenleser]

27. LOL, all of a sudden the fact that we have a military is Obama's fault?

That is to what you have resorted to in order to fuel your outrage? And I thought the folks I debated on Fox were experts on manufacturing outrage.

[inthebrain]

22. Where have you been the last eight years?

The current manny of targetting enlistments has been called the poverty draft for a very long time.

[billyoc]

21. "thought before offering a knee jerk reaction"

:rofl:

[MarjorieG]

23. Four months too little time to undo this serious mess. DoJ is overwhelmed.

[Political Tiger]

24. IOW: Obama ain't no Dennis Kucinich

And I say thank God for that! Nothing against Kucinich, but he lives in a fantasy world, a world where we can just pull all our troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq and there will be no consequences. Obama, on the other hand, lives in the real world. He understands the complexities of the world. Being a realist shouldn't disqualify one from be a "lefty."

[stevenleser]

25. It's all relative. I am sure you are right wing compared to Marx or Lenin, Mao, or Pol Pot

as is 99.99% of the world. And if Hitler or some other Nazi is the starting point, we're all left wing. And that doesnt even start a conversation into whether many elected Democrats have a voting record that is more centrist than they would otherwise like because they perceive that this is what their electorate wants.

I've done a lot of research into this question. What I have come up with is. if we look at issues, here are what most people would agree are core-left issues/positions:

1. Universal Healthcare
2. Equality/Sufferage for all
3. Good and Free Public Education
4. Pro-Peace Fight wars only when attacked
5. Living Wage

Obama has as much as come out as being in favor of 1,3 and 4. The jury is out as to whether he will be #2 when it gomes to the GLBT community, he certainly is for equality for everyone else. Few prominent politicians have touched #5.

[Ozymanithrax]

28. It is not whether he dresses left or right, but his policies

He has shown a tendancy to continue the imperial policies of the man whose job he took. He has waffled on Don't ask don't tell, denying that gays have equal rights in the miltary, in marriage, etc. He has allowed the Natinal Security state to continue to flourish.

[iamthebandfanman]

29. actually, i think the 'hope' message

actually swept a lot of us up in the last couple of months..


i remember thinking obama seemed like some corporate plant(to good to be true) back in 2003, but abandoned that when Dean made him one of his rising DFA stars...couldnt imagine that organization supporting someone in the pockets of people...


but , as soon as he named Rahm as his chief of staff.... it became very clear.

im still tryin' to keep the hope alive tho ;)

i guess anything is/was better than another republican :)

[leftstreet]

30. K&R

Well said

:applause:

[amborin]

36. exactly!

for me, voting dem means the best hope for the environment, but even that leaves much to be
desired

and Obama never promised 'leftist sounding reforms'

it's only because the U.S. is so brainwashed by a right wing media, and moving so much toward the right, that something center right sounds 'leftist'

[LWolf]

38. This lefty agrees with you. nt