One more time: This country does not have a liberal majority

[cali]

It does not have a conservative majority. It has both. It has neither. On some issues Americans are conservative. On some they're liberal. On others they're tied up in knots conflicted. On many, they're persuadable. On issue after issue, Americans as a whole, are divided. And regarding many issues, Americans are plain old ignorant.

It's absurd, on the face of it, to claim that Americans are conservative or liberal. Hate to stick you with paradox- it's so much messier and less satisfying- but the American public can't be neatly labeled like so many cuts of meat in the supermarket.

[sniffa]

1. Your condescending reply to the other thread wasn't enough?

You needed a new thread? Really?

[cali]

2. call it a pet peeve of mine

I think it's pretty important. You don't. That's fine. I believe strongly that realistically assessing who we are culturally, politically and socially, is key to change.

[depakid]

3. The data shows the contrary very clearly

On issue after issue- with few exceptions, America is a predominantly progressive nation- and has been trending that way for quite some time- and there's every indication the trend is and will continue.

Seeing how you just posted a week or so ago about science and quackery, seems to me you might want to follow your own advice and not cling to outmoded memes and obsolete,inaccurate beliefs.

Here are two studies cited, each drawing from excellent data sources (as opposed to to cheap, biased media polls). There are of course more on specific issues- showing the same sort of thing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8431369&mesg_id=8431622

[BzaDem]

4. If you are going to say multiple polls by major pollsters on a given issue are all biased

you better be able to provide some evidence for that claim. What part of their methodology makes them biased?

[depakid]

5. There's all sorts of bias in cheap media polls!

We're talking statistical bias- as well as in some cases purposful skewing related to both how and where the sample's drawn (fiddling with the multi-stage clustering for example) and in how the questions are asked or phrased- or not asked.

Accurate research is expensive- and time consuming, which is one reason why campaigns spend so much on their internals- and keep 'em close to their chests. Cheap media polls on the other hand- or those commissioned by folks with an agenda, are meant more to influence public opinion. rather than reflect it.

[BzaDem]

6. You still are not citing any evidence to support what you say.

Gallup has been polling since the 30s and is respected by both sides.

[depakid]

7. You go compare some of Gallup's "results" on say, religiousity issues to the GSS

See what you find.

Hint: Gallup's stupid polls regarding things like 69% of American believe in guardian angels" don't match up with credible GSS findings about Americans' religiousity.

But they sure are touted by the fundies as "proof" of- well, whatever they want it to be proof of. Same applied to a lot of issues (or campaigns).

[BzaDem]

8. Since you aren't providing me with any examples, I can't really critique them.

However, based on your very limited information, you are citing two polls on a very general issue which have different results. This does not in any way imply an artifically engineered bias. Differences between two polls are often due to differences in the way the question was asked, two different but equally plausible sampling methodologies, how the polls weight the sample, etc. None of those imply the kind of bias you claim that Gallup has.

[depakid]

9. Alright- go back and look at the primaries then

talk about some WAY messed up numbers!

And sorry to say, but in more than one grad school class, Gallup's been held up as a good example- of how NOT to do proper research (though of course, Zogby and Rassmussen- they're not even worth mentioning in that context).


You can go ahead and believe whatever they report if you like- just recognize that some informed and competent folks out there think you're going to end up being played for a sucker- leastwise in the states.

[BzaDem]

12. In the NH primary, polls were measuring volatile views that changed rapidly with events.

In the general election, if you took all the polls on realclearpolitics.com, and averaged them, the average was three tenths of one percent off from the actual popular vote.

After three responses, you still cannot point me to anything that contradicts the results on specific questions posed by independent pollsters that are respected by both sides. This does not make you looked "informed and competent." If you actually can point me to independent sources respected by both sides (not progressive-leaning organizations) that have evidence that contradicts Gallup/Pew/etc on the specific positions of Americans on a particular issue (such as the war in Afghanistan), as opposed to some general study that says Americans are getting more progressive, I would be happy to look. Otherwise, you are responding to my question with the answer to a completely different question.

[stray cat]

10. However, that is not the brand of progressive DU expounds - they would by DINOs by DU standards

[depakid]

11. Oh, I don't know about that- the number are pretty damn strong. Astonishing in many cases

at least compared with what many hold as the conventional "wisdom"

See for yourself:

http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/pdf/progressive_majority.pdf

[Jennicut]

13. I agree with you Cali. Many are conflicted and can be persuaded.

That is why Obama can be an effective President, he is a good communicator and can persuade people to come to his side. He can choose if he wants to get open people up to more left ideas.

[mkultra]

14. America has an independent majority

Both sides fight for the mind and conscience of those who may be fence sitters or low information voters. No lefty can ever push for pure progressiveness without suffering the same fate as the Bush republicans. The eventual result is alienation.

[Clio the Leo]

15. And the majority dont like being politically labeled.....

.... as more average citizens will tell you they vote for the candidate and not the person. (much to my chagrin I might add)

You know, someone should come along and run on premise that we are greater than the sum of our parts ..... that ultimately, we're not liberal or progressive, democrat or republican, black or white .... simply, we are the UNITED STATES of America.

I think he'd do well....

[goclark]

19. Bravo! nt

[Recursion]

16. And our labels aren't particularly relevant anymore

"Liberal" and "conservative" have so much historical baggage they're not that meaningful anymore; we're "liberal" but on many issues we're rather collectivist or even statist. They're "conservative" but on many issues they're rather radical. "Progressive" has gotten some traction, though that term's historical baggage makes me not call myself one. As the postwar political coalitions start to lose their relevance, so do the labels applied to them.

[joshcryer]

17. Yes, we get it, you are not a liberal.

Thanks for the heads up.

[cascadiance]

18. America has a "populist" and NON-corporatist majority, UNLIKE congress!

THAT is the issue...

Left vs. right? Liberal vs. conservative? Confining issues to those measurements are an attempt to deflect us away from what issues support a huge majority (90%+) of American's welfare, but work against the corporatist hegemony's agenda installed in our government now in BOTH parties.

[Perky]

20. The last election cycle proved the following

More than anything that the AMerican people want smart people in power and not dumb ones or idealouges.

The majority, fundamantally understand that the issue we face are complex and are weary and leery of people who say that either tax cuts or social programs will fix all our problems.

The last two elections were not a ratification of a liberal agenda, and it was not a rejection of a nominally conservative one. Obama was elected because the nation was tired up fuck ups when what we need is maturity and competence.

Obama has always conveyed this notion. ANd ultimately he is and will be the 60% solution when he stands for re-election. There is no one on the GOP side that comes close to his intellect, THere is not a governor or a senator who comes close.

[LiberalFighter]

21. There needs to be a scale showing

where Americans were in in their social beliefs 20 years, 40 years, 60 years ago, and now.

I am sure that as time goes the American people keep shifting more to the left than to the right. So what may be consider liberal by some 20 years ago is now considered middle of the road or centrist.

[iamthebandfanman]

22. actually, the majority DONT GIVE A SHIT!

about any politics whatsoever!

that doesnt make them centrists,
just ignorant.

[leftofthedial]

23. Pathetic

ridiculous

typically stupid

and true