Clark OR Kerry OR Kerry/Clark. Dare We Focus on CREDIBLE options

[WiseMen]

LET’S BE WILD AND CRAZY and assume that the conclusion of most pundits is correct: that is, Governor Howard Dean, (as with most in the pack) fail a MANDATORY TEST of Credibility as Commander-In-Chief in this post 9/11 environment, and cannot win against G.W. Bush.

With that assumption, there are really only 2 candidates who clearly past that TEST: Senator John Kerry and General Wesley Clark. These are the only candidates that the primary debate should be about.

THAT, SADLY, HAS NOT BEEN THE FOCUS OF MEDIA ATTENTION NOR POPULAR BOARDS SUCH AS DU.

So here I try to begin an analysis of how they stack up!

Policy Record

Kerry has 2 decade senate record of speeches and legislation covering a wide array of domestic and foreign policy issues.

Clark has a strong record in speeches and action in military and foreign policy but no significant record relative to domestic policy issues (health care, taxation, jobs etc)

The breath of Kerry public record makes him a better candidate on that score in that he can run on his record on a wider variety of issues

Sumary: Kerry trumps Clark

Foreign Policy

Clark and Kerry are very similar and both worked in the 90’s for a foreign policy that Kerry calls “progressive internationalism” and argue for proactive humanitarian military intervention in the Balkan.

Both can be assumed to be very strong in both theory and practice. Kerry’s policy strength derives principally from 18 years on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and his stint as Chairman of the Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics, and International Operations. At the same time he has a long history of hands-on involvement in military affairs starting with his two tours (6 years) in Vietnam.

Clark, as a General, could be thought to be shallow in foreign policy theory, but his major posts as Commander in Chief of the United States Southern Command and then as Nato Supreme Allied Commander were essentially senior diplomatic positions negotiating and implementing U.S. foreign policy objectives.

Summary Kerry=Clark

Progressive Domestic Issues

John Kerry has the highest scores among almost all democratic leaders for his environmental record and for issues affecting the working poor. For thirty years Kerry has fought for labor rights, women’s rights and campaign finance reform. Kerry’s record is solid on education and social security. Despite significant political cost, Kerry has opposed capital punishment, the NRA and all the fat-cat special interest lobby groups camped out in Washington.

Few senators have maintained a record so widely regarded as above reproach. John Kerry’s legendary indifference to special interest initiatives has been widely slammed as arrogance, aloofness and neglect of his “constituents.”

Wesley Clark’s record and views on social issues can only be gleaned from his actions and statements regarding education, health-care and social relations in the military service. Appear to be moderate-liberal.

Clark’s stints at Washington assignments (White House Fellow and as Special Assistant at OMB) should provide him with some grasp of domestic policy issues. Unfortunately, his lack of policy positions prior to entry into the race makes it difficult to conclude what his strong commitments are on most of these issues.

Summary: Kerry trumps Clark

Military Experience

Kerry has a storied military record with noted acts of battlefield sacrifice and bravery. His 6 years of duty included some of the most dangerous missions in the war. Kerry received the Bronze Star, Silver Star and 3 Purple Hearts for his Vietnam service.

Kerry, however, became very critical of U.S. tactics in the execution of the war even while he was in the battlefield and, after the end of his 2nd Tour, threw all efforts into ending the conflict. Some have questioned Kerry ability to make tough military decisions given his vehement opposition to the military establishment in the 70’s.

Clark served in a brief (1yr) tour in Vietman and left the battlefield severely wounded. Clark received the Silver Star. Since Vietnam, Clark has serve in varied desk and senior command positions in the military, and retired from the military, after winning the brief war in Kosovo, as 4 Star Nato Supreme Allied Commander.

Clark’s record of command appears to be stellar. His post-Vietnam awards include numerous medals and commendations including honorary Knighthoods from the British and Dutch governments, commander of the French Legion of Honor. In August 2000, President Clinton awarded General Clark with the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor.

Kerry’s military experience probably left him a legacy of dreadful battlefield memories and a consciousness of the human cost of war. Clark’s life of military service likely provides supreme confidence of command.

Summary: Clark edges Kerry

. . . . . . . . . . ..

Comments please. BE WISE!

[bigtree]

1. Kerry/Clark

I like the sound of that.

[elfin]

2. Clark/Kerry - sounds good to me eom

[bigtree]

5. Ahh!

:-)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

85. Clark/Edwards would be better

Kerry does a great job as a senator, let's keep him there.

[Sensitivity]

108. Why not Kerry/Dean? If Military Exp is issue.

[mw]

3. It's a ridiculous premise, but OK

Barring some jarring event, Dean is going to win the nomination.

And my bets are on that he'll pick Clark as his mate.

And I'll also wager that Dean/Clark are going to give Bush one helluva run.

[WiseMen]

6. Clark has flatly REJECTED being on Dean Ticket: Said Dean Cannot Win

[TLM]

7. Yeah and it isn't like Clark has ever said one thing...

and then done something else.

[deminflorida]

9. Sorry but from what I've been hearing Dean wins the Flip-Flop

award this week. If he keeps it up they may award him with a Life-Time
Flip-Flopper prize.

[Scott Lee]

103. Don't be concerned with word games - be concerned about....

Who has the most support on the Democratic side (Dean)

Who has the most ability to fight the right (Dean)

Who has the most energized grassroots campaign (Dean)

Who has gotten more noninterested or long dormant political activists back into the Democratic party than any other candidate in quite some time (Dean)

Who's vision on America and it's place in the world stands in stark opposition to the PNAC rulers, imperialist warthugs and Insider political cronies that occupy chairs and draw a fat paycheck off of your taxes - without giving much back (Dean).

"Flip flop" shennanigans are primary time nonsense. Focus on the real objectives.

[Hawkeye-X]

12. I'd rather support a Dean/Graham ticket

Clark supporters has been a complete ass lately about Dean, and I decided after looking at possibilities and Clark's immature behavior as of late that I did not want another Joe Lieberman scenario, so I am throwing my support to someone else-Bob Graham of Florida. Not only it is a proven win-win scenario, Bob Graham has a lot of respect for Howard Dean, plus it guarantees a big sweep in the South along the way to a true 50 state sweep against Chimpy Whistleass.

Clark has no supporting evidence and I still think he is a political neophyte which support has started to lag behind. Plus Clark supporters are acting like freepers at DU.

[WiseMen]

27. Any National Security Credibility Graham has is Swamped by Deans Lack

[Hawkeye-X]

13. I'd rather support a Dean/Graham ticket

Clark supporters has been a complete ass lately about Dean, and I decided after looking at possibilities and Clark's immature behavior as of late that I did not want another Joe Lieberman scenario, so I am throwing my support to someone else-Bob Graham of Florida. Not only it is a proven win-win scenario, Bob Graham has a lot of respect for Howard Dean, plus it guarantees a big sweep in the South along the way to a true 50 state sweep against Chimpy Whistleass.

Clark has no supporting evidence and I still think he is a political neophyte which support has started to lag behind. Plus Clark supporters are acting like freepers at DU.

[HFishbine]

76. Source?

???

[deminflorida]

8. Never happen, Dean will lose thru the heartland to Clark...

The turning point will be Feb 3, 2004.

[farmbo]

26. So Clark thinks South Carolina is the Heartland?

The state that started the Civil War, then sent a rapist-bigot to the senate for 40 or so years (Strom Thurmond, if you haven't been reading the papers)?

Winning South Carolina means nothing... yet Dean is still in the lead.

[retyred]

88. So what are you saying?

Winning South Carolina means nothing... yet Dean is still in the lead.???????? What the hell does this mean ???????

dean is better suited for "The state that started the Civil War, then sent a rapist-bigot to the senate for 40 or so years " than Clark?

Is this a pro-Clark or Pro-dean post



retyred in fla
So I read this book

[retyred]

86. No it'll be a gore/dean ticket

oh that's right, dean is the candidate, gore's just the consession speech writer.

Clark wants to win and he's already said that's not possible with dean on the ticket in any form.


retyred in fla
So I read this book

[UTUSN]

4. Y:owsa, Yowsa, YOWSA n/t

[manfriend]

10. credible options

Clark would never join the Dean ticket. I think Clark is working for the Clintons. Dean has voiced his opposition to the DNC leadership which was all hand picked by Bill Clinton. Clinton even fired Gore's people.

Clark has made so many flip flops and gaffs I think his campaign is already tailored to the Republican counter strategery.

Kerry and Edwards are both polling behind Sharpton.

I think Dean will get the nomination, and choose a running mate that was not a candidate in the primary. Maybe even Gore.

Then he'll lose in an electoral landslide.

If this were a horse race I'd toss my program and head to the club house and get drunk.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Closer]

15. DOH!!!

:+

[WiseMen]

17. nomaco-10 Obviously has god-like vision. Who gifted you so?

I have no Idea who Pitt is. But I must assume the confusion is
flattering.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WiseMen]

18. Glad to know Pitt is respected!

[Closer]

21. Depends on who you ask.

[nomaco-10]

22. That you would even respond to yourself...

make this whole thing even more aggregious.

[WiseMen]

24. Is This a Campaign "Change The Subject" Ploy

I know a little about Web Service technology, Ontology and Nightlife In Negril. Are those topic that Pitt is also keen on?

It this was not so weird it would be funny.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WiseMen]

33. What is the Negril Club House? Who Runs Tropical Fantasy Tours

And, did Clark vacation there after he resigned Nato.
This is so funny.

[Closer]

35. Somehow

I bet you're not laughing though. :shrug:

Just a wild stab in the dark?

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nomaco-10]

52. Your last two posts clinches it....

for anybody in doubt of who WiseMen is. BUWAHAHA

[Scott Lee]

110. Kinda puts the whole "self love" thing in a new light, ne?

[nomaco-10]

53. It's so you to reply with n/t...

so familiar

[WilliamPitt]

87. How in the fuck did this thread become about me?

I am not Wisemen, by the way. I'm not technically proficient, but I assume there's a way to prove this.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

19. I've always wanted Clark/Kerry.

That would be a SUPERB ticket!

[WiseMen]

23. Kerry ,Clark were Sympaticos in Balkan Conflict -- Against Pentagon View

that U.S. should stay out because there was no threat to national
security.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Rinaldo]

28. I don't really know who anyone is on this board

Someone once came right out and asked me "Who are you anyway?" to which, among other things I of course replied "Who are you?".

It matters not the least to me who you are, or who WiseMan is, or whether or not he uses a different name for whatever reason somewhere else. OK, I'll modify that a little. I suppose it would bother me a bit if someone is voting twice in DU polls using two names, or if someone stages a fake dialogue with himself or herself on a thread. Beyond that I don't care. I read what is written and see if it makes sense to me. I'm not in the market for a leader to follow. I'm not even interested in "outing" jounalists around their personal preferences around candidates, so long as their jounalism is either reasonably objective or overtly subjective. I can respect a professional need to maintain at least an ample fig leaf of non partisanship. Meanwhile I appreciate readiing anyone's thoughtful opinions, whatever their name might be.

[eileen_d]

61. This thread is making me LOL

"I know that's you! I know that's you!"

As far as I'm concerned tonight, I'm the only real person on DU. Everyone else is a PHP applet.

And yes, I have achieved this moment without drugs.

[5thGenDemocrat]

30. I'll vote for Clark in the MI primary in February

But, if you're asking if I could get behind a Kerry/Clark or Clark/Kerry ticket (either way), I'd say hell yes.
John
That's a ticket that would destroy Dopey.

[ViognierSipper]

31. I agree Kerry all the way

Senator Kerry has a great record that should lead him straight to the White House.. I think Kerry will bounce back. The media hates Dean.

[Closer]

32. Wild and crazy.

Gosh, I just hate that Dean's not credible. Darnit. I mean, he has the most money, the most online support, the most grassroots support, the most organization, the biggest numbers in most polls, heck, even Al Gore endorsed him. But in the end, no, he's not credible.

It's a shame really. I'd thought about voting for him. Guess I better vote Kerry or Clark. They're the REAL credible ones. Just wish they had something ELSE going for them. :shrug:

[WiseMen]

34. Let's Just Pretend Dean is NOT CREDIBLE AS COMMANDER OF U.S. FORCES

Just like Mr. Bush was not credible to me in 2000.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HFishbine]

78. Whether you are right or wrong

About a certain poster's identity, do any of us who are posting anonymously have a right to condemn another for doing the same?

[andym]

38. But in 2000 it didn't matter, now it does

But in 2000 it didn't matter, now it does. (post 9/11). Bush got on the job training. The non-partisan public is unlikely to give anyone else that opportunity-- they'll reason it's too risky.

[dansolo]

40. And let's not forget the little fact

That Dean was right about Iraq and Kerry was (and still is) wrong. So much for foreign policy experience.

[retyred]

91. "And let's not forget the little fact"

That the majority of Americans don't care if dean was right about Iraq or not. And surprisingly enough most of those that do care, still believe that while it is wrong they still support what we're doing over there.


retyred in fla
So I read this book

[LouisFC]

42. LouisFC

"He has the most money". No, George Bush has the most money. Are you going to vote for him?

"the most online support". Add up all the "online" support for all the Dem candidates and you get get about 1 million people. There are 156 million registered voters -- not a significant percentage.

"the most grassroots support" -- depends on the area would be my guess.

"the most organization". Again, I'm giving that one to Bush. That's two, have you changed your mind yet?

"The Biggest Numbers in Most Polls". Of registered Dems or Dem leaners. Look deeper in these polls and you will find that almost without exception Dr. Dean falls among "registered voters".

"even Al Gore endorsed him". This, I agree was a good get for the primaries, but it will however hurt him in the general election as it will further paint him as the "liberal, elitist from New England".

Do you want a nominee or a president?

[dajabr]

60. Your argument won't matter...

If Dean goes down, Kerry will pick up the slack and put Clark out of his misery in NH. No boost for Clark going into SC my friend. At least then we'll have a proven Democrat get the nomination.

[HFishbine]

79. Don't stop

"George Bush has the most money."

-- And Dean is best situated to battle his war chest.

"Add up all the "online" support for all the Dem candidates and you get get about 1 million people. There are 156 million registered voters -- not a significant percentage."

-- What is less than significant? The online support of the other candidates.

"depends on the area would be my guess."

-- Sure. Two ways to get a clue. Check Meetup.com and try to find a single city where there are more *lark supporters than Dean supporters. Also, check out this website for maps of the geographical distribution of financial contributions. You will see that Dean garners support from around the country: http://www.fundrace.org/moneymap.php

"Look deeper in these polls and you will find that almost without exception Dr. Dean falls among "registered voters".

-- This is simply unfounded, although I'd be happy to look again if you have a source. What one does see, if one digs deep is that many of the conventional thinking about Dean is blown to hell by polling data. He leads in the south and he leads among independent voters, for example.

Gore's endorsement will "hurt him in the general election."

-- hard to see how such speculation has any substance. Gore got more votes than any democratic presidential contender ever -- only Regan ever got more votes. Is that really a negative?

[andym]

36. Both Clark and Kerry can neutralize Bush on foreign policy

Both Clark and Kerry can neutralize Bush on foreign policy.
Of the candidates they are the only ones to offer this.

On purely policy grounds and experience, I agree Kerry is stronger. And as President, Kerry would be great.

However, since Bush is an incumbent and a war time President, he will be especially difficult to beat, no matter the daydreams of many people at DU. (unless he falls to a major scandal pre-election)

Given that, I think personality/likablity becomes an X factor, and in my opinion, Clark seems much more personable the Kerry, though Kerry is a good man, he seems to be a little more aloof than Clark.

Therefore, I rate them in this order, first Clark then Kerry, but I would be happy with either heading the ticket.

[WiseMen]

41. Thoughtful Contribution! I personally feel Clark is a bit risky at Top

because of the paucity of domestic policy experience and in
working with national legislation -- But Dean and Sharpton have
that problem as well.

[andym]

48. Thanks

And thanks for your thread! It's very interesting.


Btw, for a more in depth discussion of these ideas (power of incumbency and war time Presidency) you might want to visit my thread at
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4654

[sandnsea]

39. Clark implemented domestic policy

On every military base he commanded. He also had to advocate to Congress for various domestic policies that were needed in the military as a whole. I don't think he quite trumps Kerry on domestic issues, but he's easily equal to Dean and knowledgeable enough to take on Bush as well. And don't forget his economics degree. I prefer Kerry because I am so familiar with his vision and his record is outstanding. But Clark has alot to offer as well and I'd be pleased as punch if he were the nominee. The two of them together would be the deadly duo against Bush.

[WiseMen]

43. Clark will be pretty steady in economic policy. But not host of domestic

issues that abound.

But, brilliant leader. Should be better than other non-washington
types such as Dean and Sharpton on most issues.

[sandnsea]

49. Yes, with military bases

He was in charge of affirmative action, child care, job training, college education, housing, domestic abuse programs, drug/alcohol programs, justice, you name it. He had to make sure these programs actually worked for the troops and their families, not just write or sign bills. He could actually bring a wider variety of experience to the Presidency than many are giving him credit for.

[dajabr]

44. Sounds more like the domestic policy experience of Col. Sherman Potter...

Than a Governor (Dean)

Or a Senator (my back-up Kerry)

[5thGenDemocrat]

45. No, Col. Potter would've been in charge of about 400 personnel

Wesley Clark, as Supreme Allied Commander Europe, would have had domestic oversight of about as many people as the Mayor of Vermont did.
John
Michigan has three counties (Wayne, Oakland, Macomb) with larger populations than the state of Vermont. Now tell me something that will make this Michiganian vote for Doc Dodger's domestic policies.

[SahaleArm]

47. LOL: "Mayor of Vermont" - That's a keeper n/t

[dsc]

50. Did you vote for Clinton

his state only is about 4 times as large as Vermont (4 seats in the House vs 1). He didn't do too bad. Carter's Georgia had about 7 or 8 Congressmen back then vs California's much larger 40 or so. Did you vote for Reagan?

[5thGenDemocrat]

54. Goddamn it all to hell no, I didn't vote for Reagan

I voted for Clinton and for Carter, too. I just hope I don't have to vote for Doc Dodger.
John
I know how big Arkansas is -- that's where Wesley Clark's from.

[dsc]

58. Well why didn't you vote for Reagan

and against Clinton. Under your theory both Carter and Clinton were vastly less qualified than their opponents. Its your theory not mine so don't be upset with me when I point out where it leads.

[5thGenDemocrat]

59. Well, that's a theory

Theoretically, if a frog had a glass ass, it would break when he jumped.
John
I'm not upset. Vote for whomever you want to -- I'm voting Clark.

[dajabr]

51. Well...

The "Mayor" was not relieved of his command of VT for starters.

Secondly, he did not have the luxury of bringing the legislature up on charges for not following "orders."

Michigan has an open primary?

[5thGenDemocrat]

56. No, Michigan has a caucus

And I will be able to vote for Wes Clark on the internet from the comfort of my own home.
The Mayor wasn't "relieved of his command" because he never had the marbles to serve in the first place. Unless he was on ski patrol or something.
John
But the last two people in the Oval Office have been draft dodgers -- maybe your boy can hit the trifecta.

[retyred]

93. "Mayor of Vermont"

May I quote you on that?

Mayor dean.....That's priceless!


retyred in fla
So I read this book

[WiseMen]

98. It is reasonable to note Vermont PoP (600K) less that San Jose, SF etc, ..

[Scott Lee]

111. POOP.

[Donna Zen]

55. Yes and few additional points:

Before this campaign began Clark and Kerry are known to have gotten along. To date, I haven't seen anything happen that would have changed their relationship to one beyond repair. So, I too have considered this combination.

The additional points center on the "who" component of the election. This looms large when one considers that many voters, often in the ill informed middle make their decision very late into the process. To some degree they look at the resume (a little) and they look at the person.

So who is better on the stump? Opinions will vary according to one's preference, but I personally give to Clark. Although Kerry has more experience in the political pulpit, his style has a polarizing effect with many people finding him aloof. Clark on the other hand, has a very high "Q" factor. Those who see him like him. That he is easy on the eyes, may seem shallow, but so are many voters. Finally, Clark is the poor boy who made good based on merit, and merit alone standing before his country. That he is not a politician actually helps us in the general election. Honor, duty, country.

The regional "who" cannot be underestimated. Junior must be made to work for the South. We may not win many, but there are serious pundits who think Arkansas, a state that was within 5% in 2000, and has lost 85,000 jobs, is doable. Those same voices think that with enough hard work, we might pick up one more. Keeping george in the South keeps him out of some of the other swing states. Of course the strategy may not work, but if we are to win, the we must give it everything we have. Any dent in the South wrecks the GOP game plan.

The military vote is huge and concentrated. Both of these candidates have enough of an appeal to draw some votes away from george, but I believe that Clark has the strongest. Clark is also perceived to be more to the right on gun issues which plays a role in the debate. I've read one estimate that a move of approx. 10% of the military would give us the winning edge in six states. While this may seem wildly optimistic, there is certainly some truth to proposition.

The vp spot can contribute to a win, but people basically will vote for the top of the ticket. On the above three points, I give the edge to Clark. What Kerry brings is government experience as a true liberal, a plus considering the role of the VP, and a balanced ticket. Clark in the top spot brings us: the guy you could have a beer with, a chance to work a region and remain a national party, and a draw with some of the GOP's natural base.

Foreign policy: I've been thinking about how easily this issue has been dismissed by some who might only be thinking in terms of the election, rather than governing the country. In a global market with jobs and the environment hanging in this 2004 balance, foreign policy is everything. How can we find the money to implement a better healthcare policy, a realistic education policy, an improved job market driven by its corresponding trade policy, and better environmental policy without a president who is an expert in foreign policy? Policies are only worth the paper they are printed on without the money that makes them a reality. We need both Kerry and Clark because they not only have what it takes to win, they also have knowledge to make the magic happen.

[WiseMen]

57. Excellent Analysis. I am biased to Kerry because he is core Democrat

Kerry has been highly independent, but still has a long history of
commitment to a set of coherent ideals. Clark probably the same, but
there a large uncertainty factor. I kind of feel Kerry has
earned the leadership (unlike the good Doctor, who is really a
usurper).

[babzilla]

62. uh-oh, Clark has a "large uncertainty factor"

you are veering off the path of Kerry/Clark which was your bait to bring Clark people into the Kerry campaign. Don't be getting sloppy now.

You have careened into the Dean is a usurper ditch and are out-of-control. Turn into the curve man, just like your coherent drivers ed. teacher said.

[FrenchieCat]

64. But if you want to win a General election...

you may not want the guy that represent "the north eastern Tried and true liberal" on top of the ticket. You will lose votes that you didn't need to, including independents...Also the south is where those 5 southern senate democratic seats are at play....

Clark trumps Kerry....

[dajabr]

65. Kerry will do better than Clark in SC.

He has a stronger organization there and he's doing a better job pulling the Soldier/Veteran supporters than Clark.

I have some friends down there and that's what I'm hearing.

[FrenchieCat]

67. Now that sounds

like a rumor....we'll see, however.

[5thGenDemocrat]

68. Well, that's great

Better Kerry than Dean, if I gotta choose.
John
Don't know if I believe your "friends down there," but I could respect Kerry as my candidate, no problem. I hope the Kerry supporters respect Clark as well -- and I suspect most of them do.

[SahaleArm]

82. Who's your secret friend? Joe Trippi n/t

[Donna Zen]

99. In the general election

We will not take SC. Our hope lives in Arkansas and maybe LA.

[HFishbine]

80. And don't forget

according to his supporters on DU, *lark will not accept the VP slot.

[retyred]

97. Clark just said he wouldn't except being *D's VP

because he couldn't win. Clark isn't running for VP, but chances are good that he feels better about Kerry than *D.

BTW: I like the *lark, not as much as the *D but to each his own.



retyred in fla
So I read this book

[Donna Zen]

66. Biased...and earned

I certainly understand your sentiments, and if one is looking at the election from a party perspective, closer to the British system and the concept of a party leader, I would gladly cave to Kerry. (BTW, I'm not trying to put words onto your keyboard, just typing my opinion.) But right now I'm trying to pragmatic which is admittedly difficult without a crystal ball. I want to win; that's all.

We must hold the blue, pick up two and split NC. Clark's brand new "D" can actually help us do that even though it has caused many to shy away from him in the primaries.

I stay away, far away from any anti-Dean threads. I've fought hard and risked making enemies in the anti-Clark threads because I respect him, and many of the cruel things that have been said about him are disgusting. He doesn't troll these boards so he has been spared the bile, but he has also been rendered voiceless. I doubt very much that the worst of the anti-Clark posters would make it through three minutes in the same room with the man in any debate. Nor do they deserve those three minutes.

That said, and since you raised the "usurper" label, I don't understand what you mean by that. I do know that Dean will have no chance trying convincing the American electorate that he should replace bush. The rationale does not exist nor does the demographic make up of the country. I would say, even without a crystal ball, that we will lose at least one if not more of the swing states that Gore won. What Dean would do for the nation and why he would do it, will not make the doctor's medicine go down.

[WiseMen]

77. Usurper? I guess another word for SUCCESSFULL, but not FULLY DESERVING

of Al Gore's nod to be the new leader of the democratic party.

Guys like, Gore, Gephart, Kerry earned prominence over a long career of votes and commitments to progressive policies.

Dean has been a very good Governor, but had not much prominence in the fight for the policies he now chapions until recently.

BTW, Dean is obviously far better that Bush and has my support in the General should he win the nomination.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dajabr]

70. LOL... Earthanwindanfire? (nt)

[ima_sinnic]

71. I don't consider someone polling in single digits to be credible

. . . I fail to see how someone (Kerry) who can't even win the nomination of his party could expect to beat George Bush in the general. People are turning away from his business-as-usual, playing-the-middle-to-appease-everyone way of doing things.

[WiseMen]

72. Credibility as Commander-In-Chief of U.S. Armed Forces: based on Polls?

So you think Al Sharpton is more credible and CIC? Is Lieberman on the verge of victory?

The current national poll numbers across 9 candidates do not reflect much that is relevant to a DEM/REP/GREEN (?) general election
result. It is much more a function of name prominence and the mass media's current take on the horse race.

[Scott Lee]

112. Yes, perhaps we should let the SCOTUS select our nominee

Pshaw.... all this nonsense about letting people decide who they want to run.

[robbedvoter]

73. Kerry - the only candidate I see as potential on a Clark ticket

And I had my druthers with him - was my last on the list once but things shifted dramatically. I have no doubt of his qualifications. I am worried a bit about his health, but still, he would make a valuable VP.

[Raya]

113. I wonder whether Kerry would be willing. Anyone know?

[tedoll78]

74. If these candidates are so strong..

why are they floundering against Dean right now? The ammo is there. Dean does have flaws. Why are they so inept at cutting him off at the knees? That's a pretty pathetic statement..

[HFishbine]

81. Yeah, that's what I don't get -- all the contradictions

Dean is a terrible candidate by all measures, yet no other dem seems able to overtake him. Hmmmm.

[WiseMen]

83. Said That About Bush!! Dean good Campaigner Really, And Smart Strategies,

[HFishbine]

75. Progressive Internationalism

Interesting that you should tie Kerry directly to "Progressive Internationalism."

Every DUer should know about it. It is an attempt by some "centrists" democrats to co-opt the PNAC agenda -- the softer side of world domination, if you will. Unfortunately, instead of repudiating the paridigm of fear Bush has fabricated, it swallows it hook, line and sinker.

Read about it here: http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=124&subsecID=158&contentID=252144

[retyred]

84. This "IS" the winning combination

If any two candidates were to pair up, these two would be the match to end all matches.

What many fail to look at is what bush will focus his run on, it has already been reported that they plan to run on 9/11 and the war which makes the most sense because that's all bush has, thats where his numbers are the highest, without the war bush's numbers are in the toilet. Like it or not, the majority does support bush and his war on terror, and it will be in the forefront of most voter issues come November. And like it or not, this election will focus on who can better protect America.

With Clark and Kerry, there is no war stance that bush could even hope to surpass these two on and domestically, both Kerry and Clark have a better plan than bush, so it's a win-win for Democrats.

bush is not going to let the war become a non-issue in his bid to be re(?)elected as long as he sees it as his strongest issue unless a candidate with a better image on war gets nominated. Then he'll try his damndest to make it a "look over here distraction" with it's important but so is...... If we can't beat him on the war issue, we will lose, the economy, jobs ect. are not enough!

Clark or Kerry need to get the nomination, keep the war issue on the table showing bush's lack of leadership and ability to protect America plus show domestically their way is a better way for America. We need to be able to beat bush on "all" fronts and that equates to Clark/Kerry or Kerry/Clark.


retyred in fla
So I read this book

[IndianaGreen]

89. We are electing a President, not another Duce

FDR had no war experience, and he presided over the most dangerous period in the world's history, bar none!

In addition to that, there is no comparison between Kerry and Clark. Kerry voted for IWR, Clark didn't. Kerry bad. Clark good. End of story.

[WiseMen]

90. FDR vs Hoover 1932. Remember the small issue of GREAT DEPRESSION, not War

FDR campaigned against Herber Hoover in 1932 against the background of great depression. 1/4 or the workforce was unemployed.

Still Roosevelt had to campaign vigorously show that despite his rumored disability he was still qualified to undertake the job of President and commander-in-chief.

[IndianaGreen]

96. FDR, Truman, Lincoln, or George Washington would not get elected today

Which speaks volume as to how we have dumb-down the electoral process.

The FDR-Wendell Wilkie race was quite close.

[Raya]

102. I agree, I think the proccess make is tough for high-minded candidates

[Duder]

92. Excessive?

4. The subject line and the entire text of the message which starts the thread may not include excessive capitalization, or excessive punctuation.

[Patriot_Spear]

94. Clark supporters clearly state they aren't interested in second fiddle...

What makes you think Clark will take the backseat to a man who he's beating in some polls?

[WiseMen]

95. I think a Clark/Kerry ticket would be credible. These men are patriots.

[IndianaGreen]

105. All the Democratic candidates are patriots!

Some are jingoists, such as Lieberman.

Some people confuse patriotism with warmongering.

[Donna Zen]

100. Clark has taken four bullets and plenty of bs

for this country. Honor, Duty, and Country. Some people don't quite get that about Wesley Clark. It has taken me, a product of a cynical age, some mind-bending adjustments about exactly what that means and I am a better person for having broadened my perspective. If asked to take the VP position and presented with a decision based on that motto, he might have to consider the option because of his personal beliefs. His decision about not running with Dean does not negate his running.

I respect those who have chosen to enter our presidential race for their willingness to work hard and personally sacrifice. Nevertheless, I'm sticking to my story: why make what is going to be hard, impossible? It is our duty to ourselves, our children, and our country to remain active and press for the best candidate we can select to both turn our country around, and actually get elected. This is not a popularity contest IMHO. This is a survival of democracy duel.

What is about to happen in 2004, is much bigger than the future of the DLC. I think it is time we quite playing games and start playing to win.

I'm Donna Zen, and I'm not running for president--I just want to beat the bastards.

[Raya]

101. Clark has never sugested that Kerry cannot win. Kerry not that of Clark.

Clark won't run with Dean because he believes it to be futile.

He has not said the same about Kerry. In fact, his comments indicate
the opposite.

[Scott Lee]

104. Well, Will...er.....WiseMen,

The only credible option would be the frontrunner. Logically, they have the most support and stand to energize the most votes.

[BigBen]

106. I just don't understand.

I love Wesley. Right now he's my second choice behind Dean, but I'd be willing to throw 100 percent of my support behind him if he wins the nomination.

But I just don't understand this meme that Howard Dean is obviously unelectable, and Wesley Clark obviously is electable. To each his own, of course -- I can completely understand if you wish to support Clark or Kerry or Lieberman (wait, scratch that one) because of their positions and platforms.

But no matter who we throw up against the Fearless Leader, they're going to be in for a nasty fight. Like it or not, * is a reasonably popular sitting president with Karl Rove and his media lapdogs behind him. Do you really think they're just going to let the fact that Wesley Clark has never held an elected position slide? Why do you guys think Clark can overcome that and be "electable", but Dean can't overcome his shortcomings?

[WiseMen]

107. Any Dem will be in a FIRESTORM from Repubs. Issue is Credibility as CIC

[Donna Zen]

109. Separating the issues:

IMHO, what the historic and seemingly current climate of the country's voting trends indicate we should expect in a general election. Evidence may prove any of these suppositions to be exactly 180 degrees wrong, but with a brainwashed public, and lying media, any whole scale swings in attitude will be difficult. The South will distrust any Northern liberal--and Dean is seen as a liberal, as is Kerry, but a "purple heart" can somewhat mitigate that impression. Strange as is may seem, Kerry and Clark who both are proposing plans that often fall to the left of Dean, will continually be seen as less liberal than Dean. While you may be willing to give up the South, you might find yourself giving up swing states and thus the election. The "tax and spend" mantra while softening is still tightly wound around our Democratic necks. Dean's tax proposals will only confirm those impressions.

National security is not sighted by the polls as necessarily high among voter priorities, try running without the experience. Unfortunately for Democrats, we are see as weak on this issue, and any candidate we put forward must be ready to whip out that resume. Junior never needed those credentials in 2000 because: first, he is a republican and it is assumed that he tough on defense, and second, because 2000 is not 2004. This issue will not go away. It is not my issue; however, it will always be Dean's issue. That is reality. You may chose not to face it, the pundits and Dean advisors may convince you that the worst will not happen, but I will not live that lie.

I love Vermont, my next door neighbor, but it is a difficult from which to launch a presidential campaign, even in the best of times. These are not the best of times. Again, perception is everything, and vast stretches of this country have formed an image of Vermont as a leftist state that may be nice to visit, but does not have main stream politics as one of tourist attractions.

Everything is national security. In a global market driven by international treaties, our economy and jobs are driven by national security and foreign policy.

Do not underestimate the opposition's ability and willingness to exploit and demonize any of your candidates weaknesses. And as far as fighting back, defense is not the best offense. Each and everyone of the whores who read the news and are currently touting Dean as the "front runner" and foregone conclusion, will turn on us. Our best defense is the strongest candidate with the fewest liabilities.

My issues with Dean are policy issues. I disagree with his economic proposals, his foreign policy incoherence, and certainly his call for austerity. I doubt his ability to govern from the oval office because of his belligerent attitude and polarizing personality. As a person, he is becoming increasingly "shady" on various issues which includes misrepresenting his opposition and his own positions.(IRW comes to mind.) I also doubt his temperament--and I am not talking about Dean on the stump--I am referring to his tendency to make statements that result in back tracking and poor political positioning. His St. Paul moment in relationship to current stands vs previous stands on basic Democratic interests really leaves me cold.

In short, with nine candidates having put themselves out there, surely someone is a better candidate than Dean.

You asked for my opinion, and I have given it. To shot or not to shot the messanger is your option. But...


I am Donna Zen, and I am NOT running for president; I just want to beat the bastards.