Joe Trippi Admits He Engineered a Mass Fraud on Alan Cranston in 1983

[DoveTurnedHawk]

Everyone tells their own version of how Walter Mondale won the straw poll at Iowa's Jefferson-Jackson Day Dinner in 1983, but they all go something like this: In early October, a young Mondale aide named Joe Trippi shows up in Des Moines to check on Mondale's Iowa field operation. What he finds there horrifies him. Somehow the Iowa team has allowed the rival campaign of California Senator Alan Cranston to nearly corner the market on tickets to the JJ dinner, an annual affair designed to raise money for the Iowa state Democratic Party. This is, to colossally understate things, a problem. The dinner's traditional straw poll is an important barometer of public opinion in the state that hosts the nation's first caucuses. Mondale is a former vice president from neighboring Minnesota. Not only is he expected to win the straw poll; he is expected to win big. But the way you win is by packing the convention hall full of your own supporters. And the way you do that is by selling them tickets or buying tickets for them.

Trippi is nearly hysterical when he calls Campaign Manager Bob Beckel and Deputy Manager Mike Ford in Washington. "He speaks so fast, it was hard to keep up," Beckel recalls. "I said, 'Joe, What's the bottom line? What do you need?' He said, 'I just need permission to do whatever I need to do.' ... I just said OK." But there isn't a lot Trippi can do. He can try to get the Iowa Democratic Party to sell him more tickets. But there's no way they're going to sell him $275,000 worth, which is what Trippi estimates Cranston has bought. And, even if they would, there's no way he can afford to drop that kind of cash on an off-year event. When it comes down to it, Trippi is going to have to get his hands on tickets that have already been sold. Cranston tickets. Lots of them. And yet, once he accepts that proposition, the solution is almost elegant in its simplicity: What's to stop him from just marching right up to Cranston's people and asking for them?

"We started really early in the day," Trippi remembers, reflecting on how he and an Iowa colleague named Tom Cosgrove solved their JJ problem. "They stopped about three miles out <from> the staging area--the Mondale buses coming from Minnesota or wherever they were coming from." What follows is one of the most ambitious political makeovers in history. A team of Mondale aides, led by Cosgrove, plasters the bus with Cranston paraphernalia--stickers, posters, buttons, everything. Three miles down the road, the bus pulls up to the Cranston tent, where a Mondale/Cranston supporter gets out and tells a real Cranston aide he has 52 people on the bus. The aide looks up at the bus, surely admiring the military-like discipline that has brought a busload of Cranston supporters from "Los Angeles or wherever" out to the middle of Iowa this early in the day, and quietly congratulates himself. He promptly hands over 52 tickets.

And it continues like this, through bus after bus of Mondale supporters: Stop three miles up the highway, lather the bus in Cranston paraphernalia, drive on to the Cranston tent, claim your tickets. And the Cranston campaign just keeps forking them over. Happily. Hell, the more buses that show up, the more impressed the Cranston people are by their own handiwork. Never does it occur to them that these busloads of supporters aren't the genuine article. At least not until the real Cranston buses start showing up. "Twenty buses pull up, and they're out of tickets," Trippi says, still amused at the spectacle almost 20 years later. "More Cranston buses keep pulling up, and they don't have the tickets anymore." Score one for Walter Mondale.

<...>

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=uPrIwAEG7fHpGFSjMCq7tR%3D%3D

[DoveTurnedHawk]

1. This Is the Man Leading the Dean Campaign

And I am utterly shocked he would stoop to such despicable levels.

I hope honest Dean supporters will condemn this type of tactic, and think about what it means to their own campaign.

DTH

[molly]

178. If Trippi understands politics and is such an obvious

sleeze, why would Dean pick him?

[goobergunch]

2. Why are we digging back to 1983?

Clark voted for Reagan in 1984, don't forget.

IMHO, neither 1983 nor 1984 is that important in 2004 - heck, I wasn't even born yet.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goobergunch]

10. Then do so. (n/t)

[redqueen]

29. I think that meant they could tell you were very young. n/t

[NewYorkerfromMass]

99. Well I certainly had a good guffaw

LOL LOL LOL! Man you guys are making my evening.
Trippi sucks. Dean... well, I don't like him.

[FrenchieCat]

8. We sure are still

talking about Clark's votes...aren't we?

I have a flyer I'd like to sell you.

OBJECTS ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR!

[goobergunch]

13. You didn't address my point.

This is actually older than Clark's second Reagan vote. So how is it more relevant?

And I didn't appreciate the image of Clark being a military ruler, either.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

46. In the Law, Offenses Implicating Fraud and Moral Character Are Admissible

For a long, long time, exactly because they betray relevant information about a person's fundamental character (or lack thereof).

Again, to try to equate how a person voted with mass fraud is just kind of sad, it's so obviously desperate.

DTH

[goobergunch]

52. Digging up dirt from the past is also obviously desperate IMHO

Especially when it's not even on the candidate.

Last I checked, Trippi isn't running for office.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

55. Trippi Is RUNNING Dean's Campaign

And that's powerful evidence that's directly relevant to the sort of campaign Dean is running.

DTH

[Padraig18]

63. Didn't seem to bother you until tonight.

Why is that?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

72. Because I Just Learned About It

I can certainly forward you the e-mail (complete with date and time stamp) I received from my non-DU friend who alerted me to this issue, if you want!

DTH

[mouse7]

104. Waiting for new Chomsky book... Manufacturing Outrage

1) Take event you know has been laying around the internet for years/decades

2) Cut and paste it to mailing list and message boards

3) Puff yourself up and start acting like you give a shit about events you've known about for years/decades.

4) Try to cover giggling as you claim what has been common knowledge for years/decades suddenly matters.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

106. Hey, I'm Telling You the Truth, But I Don't Care If You Believe Me

If it floats your boat, believe whatever you want!

It probably pisses me off more because Alan Cranston was MY Senator, and a very good man.

DTH

[mouse7]

131. Cranston wrapped up in the Savings and Loan scandal

Why are you yelling about the billions Cranston allowed the Savings and Loan industry swindled instead of a some tickets to a silly event?

Oh, that's right, it's only convenient for you to yell about these stupid tickets. It doesn't help your case to yell about the Savings and Loan scandal.

[Nazgul35]

143. Why are you not offended that Cranston tried to buy...

the straw poll?

He spent 100s of thousands of dollars in an attempt to buy the straw poll to embarrass Modale in his back yard....

But no outrage over that?

Perhaps what pisses you off is that Trippi hoisted Cranston with his own petard...

And go easy on the fraud nonsense...it was a straw poll...not a caucus or a primary....

[DoveTurnedHawk]

153. Fraud Is Fraud, and Mondale Got Caught Asleep at the Wheel

Cranston played fair. Trippi stole the tickets.

The fact that people here are defending Trippi turns my stomach, because it's indefensible.

DTH

[Cassandra]

163. Trippi didn't steal tickets

He didn't go into Cranston HQ in the dead of night and abscond with them. The tickets were to be handed out or sold to anyone who said or indicated that they were a Cranston supporter. He got to them before the real Cranston supporters and, just as Mondale's team had been careless in not securing enough tickets in the first place, Cranston's team handed out tickets to whatever bus came along without checking that they were going to the right people. You could say there was carelessness and guile on both sides. So put away your moral compass on this one. This is not like Nixon's dirty tricks team canceling a signed contract to rent a hall for a rally or concocting libelous letters. Those are civil crimes.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

165. Oh Please, Deception Is Deception

Read the Iowa statute on theft elsewhere in this thread. Read the common law definition of fraud. Trippi's actions fit both to a "T".

And you're telling me to put my moral compass away? On the contrary, I NEVER put my moral compass away, and I would recommend you consider the same thing.

This was reprehensible behavior. Imagine how you would feel if you were a Cranston supporter coming all the way from California, only to be denied tickets to the JJ Dinner because of Trippi's theft. This is a dirty trick of the filthiest variety, and I will never understand those who, in the throes of partisanship, try to defend Joe Trippi.

DTH

[Cassandra]

169. If you think that this is...

" a dirty trick of the filthiest variety", then you need to read up on Nixon's campaign and put your naivete somewhere safe. This isn't even close. Just because you think this is criminal doesn't make it so. This isn't partisanship and you still haven't proven theft. Most campaigns have degrees of dirty tricks in them; you could consider Cranston's buying up most of the tickets as one of those. If no one was indicted at the time, then you can safely assume that Cranston was pissed off that his ploy hadn't worked but he knew there was no statute he could seriously charge anyone with. His team foolishly gave away something without checking. That makes his team as dumb as Mondale's team was in not getting enough tickets in the first place. I wonder at your partisanship that this matters SO much to you. Don't put your moral compass away; aim it at something more interesting.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

174. Listen To Yourself

"This isn't partisanship"?

It's partisanship of the worst kind.

"You still haven't proven theft"?

Trippi admits it in his own words, that's all the proof I or anyone needs.

The mental gymnastics some Dean supporters are engaging in to defend the indefensible speak volumes as to the Dean campaign itself. They're even going so far as to slime Cranston for acting completely legally, while Mondale fell asleep at the wheel.

Joe Trippi is an immoral thief. And Dean supporters defend him.

Oh, and naievete? As my old friend The Magistrate says, I am actually as giddy as a schoolgirl for you to label me so. :-)

DTH

[Cassandra]

176. When The Magistrate is feeling better...

we should ask him his opinion on this matter. I doubt he will be as upset about it as you are. He has shown me a level of realism about politics and war that you might want to learn from. All of us here would prefer a perfect, clean campaign, but we're not going to get that from Bush. I'd rather have someone who knows how to fight back in a clever way without resorting to the sort of tactics Rove prefers. There's some comment in this thread about Clark being above all that; I hope not or he may very well lose.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

177. I Doubt the Magistrate Would Condone Dirty Tricks Like These on Other Dems

And that's the big difference. The Magistrate recognizes who the real enemy is. From everything I've been seeing, Joe Trippi and Howard Dean do not.

DTH

[Cassandra]

186. I PMed The Magistrate with the link...

to this thread with an invitation to give us his opinion if he's willing to dig through this. I hope he will be willing to comment, rather than having us speculating on what he might say.
BTW, NOW with Bill Moyers reported that Clark announced for President while still a registered lobbyist. REALLY? That was presented as something very unusual and particularly shameless (although no worse than Haley Barbour).

[blm]

187. Those tricks can only work in a primary, in a general

if that type of dirty trick is played it will be used to brand the whole Dem party as thugs because NO WAY will the press let Democrats get a pass on any political shenanigans.

[bearfartinthewoods]

194. to equate the use of campaign funds to the theft of the tickets is

extremely revealing.

[Clark Can WIN]

190. UGlY no other words.

[Melinda]

74. Quit making stuff up.

And answer the questions from a LEGAL standpoint. Just because YOU say its massive fraud doesnt make it so - prove your case, counselor.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

79. I'm Not Making ANYTHING Up: Here Are the Legal Elements of Fraud

In order to constitute fraud, all of the following elements must exist:

1) An individual intentionally makes an untrue statement or representation;

2) The untrue statement or representation is believed by the victim;

3) The victim relies upon the untrue statement or representation and acts upon it; and

4) The victim suffers loss of money and/or property as a result of relying upon and/or acting upon the untrue statement or representation.

All four elements clearly exist here. Trippi committed fraud. Whether or not he was ever CHARGED is a completely separate issue. Maybe Cranston didn't want to be viewed as a crybaby. Maybe Trippi never copped to it until after the statute of limitations had already run. Maybe a back-room deal was cut.

Regardless, the fraud is crystal clear, based on Trippi's own admissions.

DTH

[Tummler]

89. Does anyone have a link to mid-'80s Iowa criminal statutes?

If it's any assistance, here are the theft and fraud sections from the Iowa criminal statutes (albeit from 2001, not the early '80s):
http://www.legis.state.ia.us/IACODE/2001SUPPLEMENT/714/

These are particularly interesting (and again, from 2001, unfortunately) ... parse these as you will:


714.1  Theft defined.

A person commits theft when the person does any of the following:

**snip**

3.  Obtains the labor or services of another, or a transfer of possession, control, or ownership of the property of another, or the beneficial use of property of another, by deception. Where compensation for goods and services is ordinarily paid immediately upon the obtaining of such goods or the rendering of such services, the refusal to pay or leaving the premises without payment or offer to pay or without having obtained from the owner or operator the right to pay subsequent to leaving the premises gives rise to an inference that the goods or services were obtained by deception.
http://www.legis.state.ia.us/IACODE/2001SUPPLEMENT/714/1.html


714.2  Degrees of theft.

1.  The theft of property exceeding ten thousand dollars in value, or the theft of property from the person of another, or from a building which has been destroyed or left unoccupied because of physical disaster, riot, bombing, or the proximity of battle, or the theft of property which has been removed from a building because of a physical disaster, riot, bombing, or the proximity of battle, is theft in the first degree. Theft in the first degree is a class "C" felony.
http://www.legis.state.ia.us/IACODE/2001SUPPLEMENT/714/2.html

[DoveTurnedHawk]

90. Yup, That Appears to Be Clear Theft Under Iowa Law

Thanks for the research! Good job!

DTH

[batman]

95. lol, call a cop, or faux news-though i dont think the cops will be

interested

[DoveTurnedHawk]

97. Just Because Trippi Got Away With It, Doesn't Make It Right

Even though many Republicans seem to believe that's the case.

DTH

[batman]

111. cranston "tried to get away with it" first, trippi didnt let them

Somehow the Iowa team has allowed the rival campaign of California Senator Alan Cranston to nearly corner the market on tickets to the JJ dinner, an annual affair designed to raise money for the Iowa state Democratic Party. This is, to colossally understate things, a problem.

as a former mondale voter, not reagan - i apprecaite a savy campaign
manager

[DoveTurnedHawk]

113. Mondale's Campaign Fucked Up, Cranston Acted Lawfully, Trippi Stole

It's really crystal clear from the story, you should really read it.

DTH

[batman]

119. oh is that YOUR interpretation again,

are you implying that the cranston campaign was not aware that they had virtually all of the tickets? cranston played his own version of politics to get them

like i said before if you feel a grave violation of the law occured, do call a cop

reminder of the title of the story.

JOE TRIPPI REINVENTS CAMPAIGNING ~ Organization Man :boring:

Not quite as tantalizing as the spin you put out here: "Joe Trippi "ADMITS TO MASSIVE FRAUD" :scared:

It has been charming dth, but i must return to real life

until next time :hi:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

121. "Cranston Played His Own Version of Politics" -- Yeah, Buying Tickets

Ooh, really dirty, to play by the rules and spend money in a smart manner.

This is really an incredibly weak defense, as you undoubtedly know. Trippi has already copped to everything.

DTH

[batman]

124. yours is the weak defense dth

check the thread title and compare it to the story title

nuff said

[DoveTurnedHawk]

125. Psst! This Isn't LBN!

You are allowed to editorialize on story titles, and <gasp> even focus on portions of stories themselves!

I know, I know, absolutely shocking, isn't it?

DTH

[batman]

129. editorialize hmm

go for it! but DU suggests we state our 'claims' in a non-inflamatory manner not twist them in order to insight

your is clearly an editorial worthy of the enquirer

[DoveTurnedHawk]

154. That's Because There's No Twisting, It's Accurate

Trippi's own quotes say it clearly.

DTH

[Melinda]

112. Whatever happened with Wes Clark violating Fed Election Law last Oct?

Remember the stink about Clark accepting money for speeches in violation of election law? Please, DTH, whatever happened with that anyway? Has he been charged yet?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

115. It Was Never an FEC Issue

It was legally defensible in any event, and it became a completely moot point when Clark returned the money.

Nice try, though. :-)

DTH

[Melinda]

118. It was absolutely an FEC issue - look it up. Clark is a criminal

under your standards, and he had to return the money or face a legal complaint. Clark violated the law and I am SHOCKED that YOU think his character credible or his integrity intact after all you profess to hold dear in this thread. I'm simple stunned!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

122. I Looked It Up, There Was Nothing Whatsoever There

No violation occurred, according to some of the foremost scholars on election law. No complaint was ever filed. Just try and prove otherwise; you'll fail.

To avoid even the APPEARANCE of impropriety, however, Clark returned all the money, something he didn't have to do, because he is an honest and honorable man.

Unlike Joe Trippi, who stole, and Howard Dean, who lies.

DTH

[Melinda]

146. Likewise with Trippi - nothing there.

No violation occurred and no criminal or civil complaint was ever filed. Just try and prove otherwise; you'll fail.

Bottom line DTH is you are trolling. You are throwing mud and hoping some of it sticks. It's very easy to do on a message board... just dig up a few "facts" and then toss in your own 2 cents and there's the mix.

Shall I begin a thread detailing Clark's personal responsibility for the murders of thousands of innocent Kosovian's during the immoral war PERSONALLY planned, undertaken, and led by Clark?. How much blood is he personally responsible for and how much are death and destruction are YOU, as his supporter, going to be responsible for if this WARMONGER man gets into office? Such a thread would be every bit as "truthful" as this one.

I could go on and on but I won't... and that is the last I will offer on that subject or this thread. Unlike some here, I don't enjoy spreading hatred, lies, distortions, and generally playing dirty underhanded lying games. That's not what I'm about, that's not what my heart can handle, and Wesley Clark, despite my personal anathema toward WAR, is not my enemy.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

155. Do What You Want With Clark, It's All Been Done Before by Dean Supporters

:-)

As for Trippi, he admits his own fraud. He admits he stole. He brags about it like it's some kind of good thing, when any decent person would be ashamed.

Your attempt to defend the indefensible is shocking.

DTH

[Melinda]

109. Subject matter jurisdiction - Not Iowan. Try FEC

[Tummler]

128. So garden-variety criminal acts fall under fed. subj. matter jurisdiction

...if they occur during the course of a presidential primary campaign? I would be very interested in seeing some authority for that premise.

Here are some hypotheticals to illustrate my skepticism at your premise:

If Kerry's campaign manager shoplifted three frozen burritos from an Iowa 7-Eleven, would that fall under federal jurisdiction rather than Iowa state jurisdiction -- by virtue of Kerry's status as a candidate?

If Carol Moseley-Braun's driver hit-and-run a pedestrian while driving to an Iowa campaign stop, would that also be a federal, not state, matter -- by virtue of Carol's status as a candidate?

If John Edwards ate someone's kitten on the campaign trail, would federal animal cruelty laws control over applicable state laws -- by virtue of his status as a candidate?

[Melinda]

132. Read the OP allegations again, and then get back to me.

[Tummler]

151. You just answered my question:

You apparently can't cite any authority for the premise that criminal acts committed by campaign staffers magically become federal subject matter by virtue of their employment status.

Therefore, I will continue to assume that Iowa law and the Iowa courts are the appropriate law and fora for acts of theft committed in Iowa.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

149. Voting for Reagan isn't a moral flaw?

:shrug:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

179. Important, unanswered question.

:shrug:

[bowens43]

41. This cartoon?

This is what you want? A homicidal madman who will use military power to achieve political goals? Yep, this cartoon says a lot.

Pathetic

[Bread and Circus]

136. The charicature of Dean looks like a young Clinton, no ?!?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

11. Hmm. Voting for Reagan. Committing Mass Fraud.

While I'm sure the most shrill Dean supporters might find a way to try to equate the two, I think most Democrats, and most people, whose heads, hearts and senses of integrity are in the right place will find the mass fraud a wee bit more worthy of condemnation.

This is a fundamental character flaw. And those don't just go away with a bit of political education.

DTH

[Melinda]

33. Mass fraud? Criminal complaint? Record? Conviction? Civil Judgment?

Show it.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

35. LOL!!!

So this type of behavior is acceptable in your world, Melinda?

You might want to check yourself, because you're attempting to defend the indefensible. That's generally a sure sign of a problem.

DTH

[Melinda]

65. Can't answer the questions?

You allege massive fraud. I'm asking you from a legal standpoint (and yes, I have my Juris Doctorate), was a police report ever made, were criminal charges ever filed, was a criminal conviction obtained, or were there any civil proceedings filed and adjudicated in this matter?

This is not a defense on my part, but rather a linear attempt to gather all the information regarding this matter so that I - so that we all- can reach a fully informed conclusion.

So again, please DTH, please answer the questions I posited.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

82. See Post #79 for Your Answer

And I sincerely thank you for saying please. :-)

DTH

[tameszu]

160. So how did you do on the ethics part of the bar exam, Ms. JD?

If a crime is never reported, did it ever happen? I only have graduate training in political and moral philosphy, not law, but from a moral standpoint, if someone steals something and never gets caught he still stole it. He is still a thief and, from a moral POV, a lawbreaker.

[liberalnurse]

12. Thats an excellent point.

Too bad it had to be repeated but .......it was an open ended post.

[Democrats unite]

21. Thats a good reason to be digging back to 1983...

On the Dean campaign.

[goobergunch]

So it's okay to dig on the Dean campaign, but not on Clark? (n/t)

[Padraig18]

I smell 'double standards', don't you? n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

36. Tell that to the 10 people a day who post

on the same freaking thing over and over and over. If it would stop, you wouldn't have to worry about people "digging" up shit on Trippi/Dean, now would you? You're whining, just like Dean does. :puke:

[Padraig18]

38. No.

Sorry, no banana!

[goobergunch]

56. /me chows down on some cheese (n/t)

[liberalnurse]

47. Do you mean this General Clark ???

Here is what I discovered......

http://www.recordsearchlight.com/news/national/past/20031010nat035.shtml

<snip>

Clark — who voted for Republicans Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George H. Bush for the White House — labored to fend off the criticism from the early moments of the debate. "I would never have voted for war. The war was an unnecessary war and it's been a huge strategic mistake for the country," he said.

But Dean said that exactly one year ago, Clark had advised a Democratic congressional candidate in New Hampshire to vote for legislation authorizing the war in Iraq — a war the former general now criticizes sharply

[Leilani]

126. You're the perso who smeared Clark on the Cancer thread

She started a thread on Clark, worrying about his health, his color, has he had a physical, etc. etc.

How she worked for a dr. who died of cancer=same look as Clark.

Her thread had nothing to do with politics, or issues, or anything relevant. But it was one of the lowest, rottenest, cruelest, smear jobs I have read here.

That's what the Bush people did to McCain in S.Carolina in 2000, & is considered the dirtiest campaign in recent history.

I don't support Dean, but I planned to vote for him, if he was the nominee. But no more: you Dean people have finally put me over the edge.

I don't trust his supporters, his campaign people, or him. And I will not give my vote to someone as slimy as the man in the White House.

[liberalnurse]

3. This is lude and obnoxious ......

Irresponsible reporting for a democratic venue. This is just more evil rhetoric from the DLC gang. The more of this crap the more i think I hate the Clintons.

[ClarkGraham2004]

4. It's funny because Trippi(ng) now has his new Mondale (Dean).

They are so similar it's scary.

More taxes and weak on defense. A SURE FIRE strategy for 2004.<sarcasm>


www.clark04.com

[jsw_81]

101. Dean is Mondale? I don't think so

Walter Mondale never got crowds of 10,000+ months before the election. And he never raised the kind of money Dean has.

[quinnox]

5. Trippi is a sleazeball

I saw him on Cspan the other day, and what a slimy, repelling person this guy came across as.

He also has a history of managing losing presidential candidates, go figure.

[LandOLincoln]

84. I agree about Trippi.

Joe Trippi + Karl Rove = Evil twins separated at birth.

One of the reasons I'm such an admirer of the General is that he IS such a gentleman, and far too classy to engage in this kind of sleazy campaigning. I don't accept that it's "just politics." It's goddam stupid strategy is what it is.

[bicentennial_baby]

6. Yuck

and double yuck...

[blm]

9. Terrible for those supporters who traveled all day & have their tix STOLEN

from them by others. That is just despicable. He should have been thrown in jail.

It shows NO respect for voters or the supporters of other candidates.

The whole Dean campaign goes from one con job to another.

[Padraig18]

14. Wasn't 1983 the year immediately prior to Clark's 2nd vote for Reagan

I call on the Clark campaign to stop this ridiculous 'junk from my closet' stuff, DTH. if that's the approcah you want to take, then just remember one thing: two can play the game...

[goobergunch]

19. See the responses to my post #2

It looks like there's a double standard.

[Padraig18]

22. Yes.

Apparently only certain campaigns are allowed to be outraged at the revelation of historical facts, but not Dean's. :eyes:

[KittyWampus]

25. Clark's Voting Record Is Repeated Often Here On DU

I never heard this story about Trippi.

Funny thing is so many anti-DLC'ers here on DU would say Democrats are pink tutus and need to fight dirty just like the Republicans.

Wonder if same people are actually admiring of Trippi's past behavior and would prefer such tactics be repeated?

Just wondering

Also, would those who have so often wanted Democrats to use same tactics as Republicans admit they admired Trippi's initiative.

I actually have to admire his thinking.... just as one has to admire the way the Neo-Cons have wrought their foul deeds. Horrifying yet somehow impressive.

[Tinoire]

148. In all fairness- I did post this story (from same source) earlier

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=49199

post 336

[DoveTurnedHawk]

27. Laughable, Padraig

See my post #11 as a response. Trying to equate the two is simply laughable.

As for digging up dirt, I never read this TNR story before, and frankly I never saw it posted here. Maybe I missed it. But this is sure news to me, and it absolutely shocked me, too.

DTH

[Padraig18]

32. Facts are facts.

If you want to post stuff like this, fine, but spare me your 'I want Dean supporters to denounce this' outrage when it's YOUR candidate that's in the cross-hairs. Deal? :eyes:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

40. Dean Gave Up Any Moral Authority He Might've Had AGES Ago

I've got no problems with people who try to compare Clark and Dean when it comes to integrity, because it's so obvious who wins out. As for me, I'm more than willing to accept the consequences of my actions.

The fact that you're trying to equate voting for Reagan with mass fraud is pretty telling, though, as is your failure to condemn obviously condemnable behavior.

If anything like this ever comes up about Paul Johnson, btw, you'd better believe I'll condemn him and complain about him to the campaign.

DTH

[Padraig18]

44. War you want, war you'll get.

This whole article is utter BULLSHIT, and the fact that you dig back 20 years to find something is SICKENING! You can BET I'll be bringing up the general's past a LOT in the future.

Thanks for pretending to civility when it suited your purposes!

[ClarkGraham2004]

48. Unlike Clark, who's actually BEEN TO WAR.

Keep digging though.




It doesn't look desperate, I promise.


www.clark04.com

[Padraig18]

54. Yeah, he was in the war.

He was also a Republican until October. Hey, I want to run General Motors, so I think I'll apply for the job as its president.

[ClarkGraham2004]

58. tisk tisk

Desperation reaps its just desserts.

[Padraig18]

60. So has opprtunism, apparently.

At least my candidate has a verifiable record as a Democrat. The truth hurts, doesn't it?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

67. Doesn't Hurt at All

Because it's been bandied about so much.

I'm confident that Bill Clinton or some equally potent Democratic notable will come out and say Clark is a true-blue Democrat, even if there is no formal endorsement. So please, go ahead and put your eggs in that basket. Bill will smack it down really well.

DTH

[Hawkeye-X]

144. Don't count on Clintons endorsement

It'll only confirm that Clark is Clintons puppet

[ClarkGraham2004]

69. Clark's record involves preventing another holocaust

and managing hundreds of thousands of troops and their families. Negotiating with foreign leaders, bringing dictators to justice, putting his life on the line in defense of his country, being shot 4 times in the name of the United States of America.


Dean balanced Vermonts 407 dollar ice cream debt.




www.clark04.com

[DoveTurnedHawk]

59. Hee Hee!

I actually love how this stuff has been bandied about here so many times, because it just loses its sting completely whenever it's inevitably bandied around yet another time.

Sorry this one stings YOU so much, Padraig. If you really want an honest, clean, positive campaign, maybe you should look elsewhere, than Joe Trippi.

DTH

[Padraig18]

66. GO AWAY!

Leave me the FUCK alone!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

51. How Is Trippi's OWN QUOTES Bullshit, Padraig?

And it was reported quite recently, and again, I never once saw it posted here.

And feel free to bring up whatever you want about the General, Padraig. Enough of your compatriots do it again, and again, and again, and again, anyway, I'm sure one more won't make much of a difference.

As for "pretending" civility, at least I can point my finger toward an actual candidate for why I'm angry, rather than merely at other DU folks. At least my anger is based on something that's actually relevant to the election. Because not one campaign's supporters has been innocent here.

DTH

[Padraig18]

57. Dragging it up 20 years after it happend is what's BULLSHIT!

Go away!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

61. Sorry, I Ain't Going Anywhere

And you can blame TNR for dragging it up, they're the ones who printed it recently.

Of course, I happen to agree that a person's moral character (or lack thereof) is exceedingly relevant, especially when that person is running a leading Presidential campaign.

DTH

[goobergunch]

64. Didn't TNR just endorse Lieberman? (n/t)

[Padraig18]

68. Yes, you are going somewhere.

you just won't know it. Bye.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

83. Well Gee, I Guess You Sure Showed Me!

:D

DTH, Who Ignores People All the Time and Doesn't Feel the Least Bit Bad About It

[ClarkGraham2004]

62. It is EXTREMELY RELEVANT

It calls into question the character of Joe Trippi(ng).

Unlike Clark voting his job (Reagan) instead of Dean Sr. (Mondale). It has nothing to do with ethics.





www.clark04.com

[batman]

80. the thread topic is dishonest

read the story
looking at the title alone should tell you something

[DoveTurnedHawk]

85. Of Course the Title Is My Interpretation of the Event

I never made any claims to the contrary.

DTH

[batman]

91. YOUR interpretation is right. the author of the piece had a different one

*

[DoveTurnedHawk]

102. The Author Had a Different Slant

The author does not say Trippi was right; the author does not exonerate Trippi from stealing.

My interpretation is exactly correct, your efforts to claim otherwise numerous times notwithstanding.

DTH

[batman]

140. the author does not claim fraud or an admission to fraud

you do

[DoveTurnedHawk]

156. The Author Presents the Facts as Admitted By Trippi

Those admissions constitute stealing under Iowa law.

The fact that Trippi was never prosecuted for it is a completely separate issue.

Trippi is morally bankrupt, and that is the man who is running Howard Dean's campaign.

DTH

[DoveTurnedHawk]

86. Deleted Dupe (eom)

DTH

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

77. But don't we all

just love going back 20 years to dig into Bush/Rove's past?

Personally I could give a hoot less what Trippi did 20 years ago, though it does give me pause...what bugs the crap out of me is what he's doing NOW.

And if Dean is the "wonder of integrity" he wants us to believe he is, he needs to put a stop to the "slippery" actions of his campaign team.

[Hoppin_Mad]

70. Touche !

[Tummler]

15. Any estimates as to the monetary value of the stolen tickets?

$50,000?

$100,000?

more??

:shrug:

On edit: would any lawyers among us care to speculate as to whether Trippi's actions constituted larceny by trick, obtaining property by false pretenses, or other specific crimes of fraud?

If it's any assistance, here's what appears to be some relevant sections from the Iowa criminal statutes (albeit from 2001, not the early '80s): http://www.legis.state.ia.us/IACODE/2001SUPPLEMENT/714/

These are particularly interesting (and again, from 2001):
http://www.legis.state.ia.us/IACODE/2001SUPPLEMENT/714/1.html
http://www.legis.state.ia.us/IACODE/2001SUPPLEMENT/714/2.html

[MIMStigator]

16. Yuk. Why did Dean pick this dude

eom

[ClarkGraham2004]

20. Reminded Dean of himself?

Just a theory.

[eissa]

28. Yeah, why did Dean pick Trippi?

I just can't figure it out :evilgrin:

And as "dispicable" (prounced a la daffy duck) some may think this 20 year old stunt was, I'm just glad he's on the dem side. You don't think rove & co. have/will pull this shit, and much worse?

[batman]

17. where is the fraud and the admission

its not in the article you link

[madaboutharry]

18. This somehow reminds me

of one of Richard Nixon campaigns when they kept moving the same busloads of college students from one rally to the next, making it look like he had the "youth vote."

[jonnyblitz]

23. well...at least you aren't using The Drudge Report as a source

TNR (who endorsed Lieberman) is a little bit better. Perhaps one day you guys will be able to use an actual LIBERAL publication to back up your attacks.

[DancingBear]

37. We're using the sources where the information is

As much as we all dislike Drudge, he has sources and can (at times) get things correct. The idea of "vetting' candidates is to acquire info from all sources, and judge accordingly. Slamming sources because we don't like them smacks of Limbaugh logic. The letter on Drudge seems credible(at first blush) to me, and other posters here have already done some fact checking re: the names of the Dean supporters referenced. Trippi's previous Iowa history lends creedence, as well.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

49. How is it a lie?

If you have a source that disproves the story, please feel free to post a link.

[batman]

71. the source that disproves this story is "the story"

it's good to read.

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. OMG.......Do we lack

integrity or what? I NO longer will trust the results of the Iowa caucuses. I don't care if the Dean campaign says they won fair and square. I will never believe it now. I think ALL of the campaigns should be warned about what could happen in Iowa. Thanks Trippi. Thanks Dean. :puke:

[batman]

30. actual story title: JOE TRIPPI REINVENTS CAMPAIGNING~Organization Man

not very slanderous is it?

the story is about trippi's ability to organize. no fraud, no admission.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031117&s=scheiber111703&c=2&pt=uPrIwAEG7fHpGFSjMCq7tR%3D%3D

[DoveTurnedHawk]

31. Please Read More Carefully, Pal

Trippi admits he essentially stole those tickets from Cranston.

If you can't see exactly why this is wrong, then I feel badly for you.

Will not one single honest Dean supporter condemn this type of behavior?

DTH

[ClarkGraham2004]

39. Trippi supporters are Tripping

Dean will go down in flames just like Trippi(ng)'s former client, Dick Gephardt, did in '88.



www.clark04.com

[Padraig18]

42. Wanna puit some CASH on that prediction?

He's gonna beay the General like a piece of cheap meat.

[ClarkGraham2004]

45. I am putting some CASH on the General right now!

And you can too.


Donate here:



www.clark04.com


New American Leadership for a New American Century.

[Padraig18]

50. I'll burn it in the street first!

:puke:

[deminflorida]

75. Hey invite me to watch you burn your cash....

I'll get a kick out of that one...

[ClarkGraham2004]

76. He could use it to pay for Dean's tax increases?

:shrug:


Won't have to because Dean won't be the nominee, but whateva.

[LuminousX]

78. If he does go down, then the process works, if he doesn't

will you say the same thing?

[KittyWampus]

43. I'm A Little In Awe, Myself

Part of me is appalled
Part of me is amused
Part of me is awed

That is being brutally honest.

[batman]

73. i have read it carefully pal you apparently have not

do go back and read it again

if your aware of a criminal act, please notify the proper authorities

this thread is classic flame bait

[dfong63]

87. i condemn it

Will not one single honest Dean supporter condemn this type of behavior?

i heartily condemn all dishonesty. now when will YOU condemn Clark's lying about the dangers of depleted uranium, Clark's voting for Nixon and Reagan, his initial attempts to weasel out of admitting it (sayinghe couldn't remember), his praise for Bush and the PNAC team, his bombing of civilian targets in the Kosovo war?

[redqueen]

34. People can forgive a lot of things

But cold, calculated cheating ain't one of them.

[Duder]

53. I love that story

WTG Joe! :)

[dfong63]

81. eat your heart out

you know Clark would have given two of his stars to have Trippi working for him.

[LandOLincoln]

93. Bull.

and you know it.

[LisaM]

88. Well, who rigged it so that the Cranston campaign got all the tickets?

That doesn't sound very cricket either. In fact, it sounds as if they were trying to perpetrate a fraud themselves. I mean, I have no idea if this is true or not, and a lot of it sounds weird - where, in 1983, would someone be able to rustle up that much Cranston paraphernalia that quickly? - but it sure sounds as if they were trying to job the straw polls themselves.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

100. Gee, I Guess There's No Difference Between Buying Tickets Fair and Square

And stealing them.

:eyes:

I do love how Dean supporters twist themselves into contortions trying to defend Dean's number one guru, however. It's very telling.

Regardless, the article strongly implies that Mondale's campaign dropped the ball, which is how Cranston's folks got all the tickets in the first place.

DTH

[killbotfactory]

92. What? Like running as a democrat...

just a little over two years after raising money for republicans?

*ba-dum-ching*

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all night.

[w13rd0]

105. I recall that when Clark's "Democratic credentials" were questioned...

...he said that he'd seriously considered what party to run for, then he listed off a litany of positions (for which he has no actual record to back any of those positions up) and said, "the choice was clear, I decided to run for the Democratic nomination"...yeah, the choice was clear because THE REPUBLICANS ALREADY HAD THEIR NOMINEE and he needed to find a place to fit in, and Cheney wasn't going to give up his chair to Clark.

If the influx of Clark supporters at DU is any indication of the character of the campaign...well, I'd rather Lieberman were the nominee than Clark.

[BootinUp]

94. Does anyone care about honesty anymore?

I would never vote for someone who I knew or strongly suspected of breaking either the letter of the law or the spirit. If this story is true, it was theft, pure and simple. I am not attracted to the candidate who hires a guy like Trippi.

**edited last line to clarify

[batman]

98. i care about honesty which is why this thread is disturbing

read the entire story

the headline is the first clue

[Melinda]

120. Clark violated the law last October when he took money for speeches.

And he was forced to return the fees he accepted or face prosecution. Does this change your mind about him? I'm willing to bet not.

[BootinUp]

134. Your comparison is not valid

How can you compare stealing to unfamiliarity with campaign finance laws?

[Melinda]

191. More than valid, it's chilling. Clark's advisor WROTE THE LAW.

LMAO, unfamiliarity? Clark's campaign was far from ignorant in this
instance, Jim.

Attorney Brad Litchfield, who worked (and still works) for Clark when Clark accepted money for these appearances, helped draft (write) the 1992 FEC advisory opinion" saying that David Duke could not make paid appearances like those Clark has made.

Nice try though.

[Melinda]

192. What the heck is wrong with this forum tonight?

I can't edit my post to correct the error I made above, so this is an addendum.

Litchfield didn't write "law", he drafted an FEC advisory opinion (intra-agency regulation) on the matter.

Search the WP or google; it's all there.

[jsw_81]

96. And your guy Clark voted for Ronald Reagan in 1980 and 1984

I'm much more concerned about that.

[maddezmom]

103. don"t know about the legal aspect

but it sure is dirty politics. YUK

edit: for typo

[batman]

108. read the first part

Somehow the Iowa team has allowed the rival campaign of California Senator Alan Cranston to nearly corner the market on tickets to the JJ dinner, an annual affair designed to raise money for the Iowa state Democratic Party. This is, to colossally understate things, a problem.

[FubarFly]

107. People on this board want to

defeat George Bush, and expect someone- anyone's campaign manager to be a Saint? It's a dirty game, and these guys are all rats.

Did anyone here truly not know this?

LMAO.

Thank God Dean has hired someone who is in this to win. And in any objective estimation, Trippi's been doing an outstanding job.

But if your really concerned, you should bring it up with the proper authorities.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

110. Nah, the Statute of Limitations Has Undoubtedly Run Already

But I'd very much like to make sure every Democrat I know is aware of the type of man running Howard Dean's campaign.

DTH

[FubarFly]

114. Hmm..

Do you think all of Wes's guys are clean?

Are you sure you want to go there?

:eyes:


Ok. Whatever. Have your fun.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

116. "Bring It On," As They Say

If I find out Paul Johnson ever stole like this, I'd be the first one calling for his head.

I certainly wouldn't be defending him like so many Dean supporters are doing with Trippi on this thread.

I guess I just value integrity, and despise stealing, deception and dishonesty. I would urge you, all Dean supporters, and all supporters of the other candidates to do the same.

DTH

[FubarFly]

117. Well it's a good thing Trippi has grown up since 1983.

He's showing a lot more integrity and maturity now.

But you wouldn't know anything about that, would you?


On edit: That was a reference to Trippi's qualities, not your own.

And that's all I will say at this time..

[batman]

123. i dunno if I have to choose between someone who voted for reagan

vs someone who worked for mondale

its not a tough decision

this thread was pure flame bait, it has served its purpose

[moz4prez]

127. you're going to write-in Joe Trippi?

who exactly are you supporting? Dean or his campaign manager?

Really telling post . . .

[batman]

130. actually i was speaking about choosing to put something in the past

not choosing a candidate

sorry it that went over your head

[moz4prez]

137. pshaw, you were not referring to a choice between two ACTS

but between two personalities.

it was implied that you'd rather throw your support behind someone who worked for Mondale than someone who voted for Reagan.

sorry if you can't understand what you write.

[batman]

147. right

i think trippis (actions) are easier to over look then a vote for reagan. i think i made that clear all along

the op is claiming trippis is a dirty campaign manager and thus the dean campaign is tainted

i claim that a vote for reagan taints the clark candidacy

chose (your) tainted campaign

we need savy to compete with rove - i'm sticking with dean

[DoveTurnedHawk]

175. Ooh, Nice Edit, Probably Just in Time, Too

Trippi is a morally bankrupt thief.

I bet that more than a few Dean supporters who defend Trippi's actions are morally bankrupt as well.

Oh, but that's a reference to a limited subset of Dean supporters generally, and not a specific reference to you.

And that's all I will say at this time.

DTH

[FubarFly]

180. LOL

I am glad you understand the qualities of moral bankruptcy. The next time I need advice on the subject, I'll know where to turn.

:hi:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

182. I'll Be Happy to Act as Your Moral Advisor

You did just say that you needed one, right? The first thing I'll do is teach you about why stealing is wrong. :-)

DTH

[Padraig18]

133. Something the holier-than-thou here should consider:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A58717-2003Oct7?language=printer
Retired Gen. Wesley K. Clark may have violated federal election laws by discussing his presidential campaign during recent paid appearances, according to campaign finance experts.



Clark, a newcomer to presidential politics, touted his candidacy during paid appearances at DePauw University in Indiana and other campuses after he entered the presidential race on Sept. 17. Under the laws governing the financing of presidential campaigns, candidates cannot be paid by corporations, labor unions, individuals or even universities for campaign-related events. The Federal Election Commission (FEC) considers such paid political appearances akin to a financial contribution to a candidate.

Clark is getting paid as much as $30,000 for speeches, according to people familiar with his arrangement. He has two more scheduled for next week.

Clark, like any other candidate, would likely be permitted to deliver the paid speeches only if they did not "expressly" cover his campaign or his political opponents, the experts said.

But in his speeches, Clark has talked about his campaign positions and criticized President Bush's policies. At DePauw, during a question-and-answer session after the speech, Clark "absolutely" covered his political views on everything from education to the economy, said Ken Bode, a visiting professor of journalism who moderated the session.

Larry Noble, a former FEC general counsel who heads the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics, said Clark's speeches are "problematic" because "the insertion of campaign-related items into his speech can turn it into a campaign speech." If so, the paid appearances would amount to "illegal contributions," Noble said.

"If somebody is going to get involved in a presidential campaign, they need to know the rules," Noble said.

William Oldaker, Clark's general counsel, said the retired general did not run afoul of FEC laws because Clark "is not attempting through those speeches to specifically . . . influence his election."

Oldaker said Clark only "incidentally" mentioned his candidacy in the speeches, and, therefore, the purpose of his appearances had nothing to do with his presidential campaign.

But Don Simon of Common Cause, a campaign finance watchdog group, said, "It's potentially a real problem if he used these speeches in any way to even refer to his campaign." Simon said the FEC should investigate whether Clark crossed the line by talking too much about his campaign, even if that wasn't the candidate's intent. Simon said the FEC would look at the "totality" of Clark's appearances to determine if he violated any laws.

Clark has been paid for speeches at DePauw, the University of Iowa and Midwestern State University. If the FEC reviews the matter, it would look at how much of each appearance was campaign-related, according to Noble and Simon.

Clark's appearance on Sept. 23 at DePauw appears most problematic for the candidate.

Throughout his speech to the DePauw audience, some of whom waved "Draft Clark" signs they were handed on the way in, Clark blasted Bush's Iraq policy and outlined how he would handle foreign affairs differently. During the Q&A that followed, Clark talked in detail about his qualifications and ideas for the presidency.

Ken Gross, the former head of enforcement at the FEC, said most candidates "shut down speaking" because "it just creates too many problems for them." In 1999, Republican Elizabeth Dole, who was exploring a run for the presidency but was not officially a candidate, came under fire for allowing corporations to pay for her speeches. At the time, her spokesman said Dole would quit delivering paid speeches once she was officially running. Clark is officially running.

Gross said Clark would "be open to investigation," but it is not clear what the FEC would do because there is "no entirely bright line" that indicates when a paid appearance becomes a political one.

The FEC dealt with a similar case in 1992, when Republican candidate David Duke requested permission to allow Vanderbilt University to pay him an honorarium and cover his travel expenses for a speech on affirmative action.

In an advisory opinion, which reflects the view of the FEC at the time, the commission said if Duke discussed his campaign or the "qualifications of another presidential candidate, either during the speech or during any question and answer period will change the character of the appearance to one that is for the purpose of influencing a federal election."

Brad Litchfield, who helped draft the 1992 FEC advisory opinion as head of that department, is now working for the Clark campaign.

Et tu, Brute? :eyes:

[BootinUp]

139. why

I don't see the problem. Once he got advice on the intricacies of the law he returned the money.

[Padraig18]

142. but *HE* is the candidate-- not the campaign manager.

Quite the distinction, don't you think? :eyes:

[BootinUp]

145. You didn't address my point.

try again?

Once Clark understood the campaign finance law he returned the money. So basically no harm done at all.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

157. There Is No Point, It's Desperation Since What Trippi Did Is Indefensible

Solution for the Dean supporters? Try sliming Clark, even though "may have" does not equal clear fraud and theft like Trippi admitted. Clark was advised by the best elections law lawyers there are, including some who helped write the laws. They told him there was no violation. And there was none, and there was no complaint ever filed. Clark was just acting in an OVERABUNDANCE of caution to avoid even the mere APPEARANCE of wrongdoing by returning the funds, even though he didn't have to.

Trippi just stole. No one can defend his behavior, except to argue that just because he wasn't caught, that somehow makes it OK.

It wouldn't surprise me at all for Republicans to believe that, but it sickens me that some Democrats apparently do.

DTH

[jcgadfly]

164. So you're saying that he engaged in a conflict

without understanding the rules of engagement.

Not a bright thing for a soldier to do.

On the topic: There is a fine line between fraud and political chicanery. I believe that in 1983 both Cranston and Mondale engaged in political chicanery.

The Bush administration, as publishe in the Carnegie Group's report, committed fraud and serial murder.

Can we get back to the task at hand (removing Bush)?

[JNelson6563]

135. haha Good thing I'm not voting for Trippi

Of course let's see, in 1983 I was 20 years old and....well let us just say I was a completely different person than I am now.

I understand though, the need to retaliate. Those Clark quotes are painful, out there on there own. No commentary to spin them or soften the blow.....kinda stark really.

Well, as was stated above, at least you didn't have to go as far right as Drudge. :toast:

Julie

[Bread and Circus]

138. That scam is genius, Trippi is like the Rove for Democrats

Man, I got a kick out this story.

[BootinUp]

141. How true

[AnnabelLee]

150. If true, it sounds like something

Dick Tuck would have done.

[RetroLounge]

152. Another big old circle jerk and no one responded Poop?

Okay

Poop!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

158. I E-mailed This Story to Everyone I Know Who's Remotely Political

The reaction was universal disgust, even from the two Dean supporters.

I consider it a job well done. Good night!

DTH

[snyttri]

159. It makes today's accusations of dirty tricks by the Dean campaign more

credible.

DES MOINES, Iowa (Reuters) - The campaigns of two Democratic presidential contenders accused front-runner Howard Dean (news - web sites)'s camp of political dirty tricks on Thursday, including plans to have out-of-state supporters pose as Iowans and participate in the Jan. 19 caucuses.

http://tinyurl.com/2xxmo

[NewYorkerfromMass]

161. Well, it certainly leads one to believe it is possible

Trippi will play by no rules.

[RogueTrooper]

162. Aye

Trippi's the best. Good blag from the Jedi.

:evilgrin:

[9119495]

166. This just in!

From World-Net Daily:

Clark hobnobbed with war criminal
Photo shows hat-exchange with mastermind of Srebrenica massacre

Now I think this is a bull shit thing to bring up, but all this mock outrage COULD be perhaps directed at someone who had a peaceful meeting with a war criminal. I say no, but lets stop the hypocrisy.

[LandOLincoln]

170. Yes, Clark met with Mladic,

knowing full well that Mladic was a murderous thug (but officially not yet a "war criminal," since he had not been indicted).

So here's the thing: if you're going to meet with your enemy to suss him out and get into his head as much as possible, do you march up to him and say,

"Howdy, I'm Wes Clark and I'm about to bomb your genocidal ass back to the Stone Age,"

or do you, you know, act all friendly-like and put him off his guard? While you take your time, chat him up and pick his brain, such as it is?

There's a speech from The Lion in Winter that comes to mind. Anyone remember it? Henry II has a couple of brandies with Phillip of France, and then lowers the boom on the boastful young blabbermouth by pointing out that he's just lured Phillip into burbling every bit of strategy he has, while Henry himself hasn't revealed a thing.

"And to these aged eyes, boy, that's what winning looks like!"

[9119495]

172. I completely agree with you Londo

but I'm merely pointing out how mock outrage as described above could be manufactured about Clark. I support Dean, but Clark is a great man. This 1983 shit is a bit of a reach.

[indigo32]

167. Politics is a VERY dirty game

has been since I DUNNO... FOREVER? Yup FOREVER.
I'm sorry ... this was a dirty thing to do... but I'm not going to act all shocked and incensed about it. It and FAR WORSE have been done too many times before... and I'm not niave enought to believe Clark or any of the others are above the fray.

Geph people, and now some Clarkies I see, are blatently insinuating that Deans people are gonna participate ilegally in the actual caucus (yeah right). How nice is that?

But nobody seems to take issue with the discussions of what part cell phones will play that night in wheeling and dealing.

[CWebster]

168. Ahhh politcs...

I love that story....;-)

[Freddie Stubbs]

171. I am definitely not going to support Walter Mondale after reading this!

;)

[w4rma]

173. Trippi understands politics and will more likely stand up to Bush's tricks

that can easily be pulled with these unauditable electronic ballots that are currently being used in many places, including Georgia during the recent GOP sweep of that state which, I think, was the first time the Republican Party has *ever* taken control of Georgia.

The 1980s were, hopefully, different times. IMHO, these unfair tactics would backfire, at least within the Democratic Party, in a HUGE way, now. Especially with the wide availability of the internet and its fast and accurate communication and verification by regular folks.

Also, Trippi isn't the guy running for office. Dean is.

[cindyw]

181. Kick for the Real Deal

:kick:

[Tatiana]

183. I'm conflicted about this issue.

From a moral standpoint, I guess, what Trippi did was wrong. It's indefensible.

That being said, it only illustrates that Trippi is one who wants to WIN. And that's something this party needs to start doing in a major way. The Republicans have Rove and shit-fixer extraordinaire James Baker... we need someone like Trippi on our side. I just hope he saves such tactics for Bush & co. and not fellow Dems.

[maddezmom]

184. but at any cost?

that's the part that worries me. Can't we win as the Democratic Party on our own merits without resorting to rovian techniques?

[Tatiana]

185. Idealism, Fairness, being the "Good Guy"

That "lost" us the Presidency in 2000 when we were the actual winners. I don't know, maddezmom... I'm just sick of losing. I feel that Bush has to go and if we have to use as a last resort Rovian techniques, so be it... as long as Bush is out.

Make no mistake, Clark is my candidate, but if Dean wins, I want all the Dem dogs let out. I want Trippi and co. to crush Bush. I want no more opportunities to steal the Presidency. I want a convincing win for whomever our nominee is.

[w4rma]

189. We need someone who knows how to do this stuff for DEFENSE not offense.

Democratic voters won't stand for cheating so there is absolutely no way that cheating will come from our side. But you've got to understand how to do this stuff to defend from it.

[RandomUser]

193. But Dean is now using it for OFFENSE against fellow dems

So there goes that argument. :eyes:

[blm]

188. The media would be all over ANY Dem who pulled this shit in the general.

It would become a scandal of HUGE proportions because the media is out to help BushInc. destroy the dem party...permanently.