NRA endorsement for a Democrat candidate?

[blondeatlast]

http://www.boomundo.com/dean/nra.htm

First off, I know this isn't an official Dean site.

Also, I am firmly ABB, won't vote Green, definitely voting with the candidate with the D nest to their name; doesn't matter who it is.

But I do favor strict, Federal gun control (but I believe Ameericans should be able to own , meeting all of the previous criteria).

Buit Dean's 100% rating for the NRA deeply disturbs me. I see this as a very un-Dem issue, and I'm also nervous that if Dean is the candidate, the pro-gun vote will be heavily courted.

Someone, please assuage my fears about Dean and guns. There has to be something for this longtime Democrat to hold onto.

Please keep it civil--my preferred candidate doesn't have a snowball's chance in Hell, but I am not anti- any of the candidates at all.

[MrBenchley]

1. He DOES support

the assault weapons ban AND closing the gun show loophole. And he's got to be better than pResident Turd.

"if Dean is the candidate, the pro-gun vote will be heavily courted"
If it is, that will be a dreadful mistake...those loonies hate blacks, gays, Jews and uppity women as much as they love their guns. There's a reason the Confederate flag crept into the discussion last time.

[1a2b3c]

38. ..

If it is, that will be a dreadful mistake...those loonies hate blacks, gays, Jews and uppity women as much as they love their guns. There's a reason the Confederate flag crept into the discussion last time.

Man, are people really this narrow-minded? Or is it just an attempt at a flame war?

[tsipple]

2. Dean Won't Get the NRA's Endorsement

He favors enforcement of all gun laws, extension of the assault weapons ban (for all the good it will do, but I digress :-)), closing the gun show loophole, and then let states do what they want.

Which is exactly what Senator Kerry says we ought to do, for comparison.

I do hope the NRA stays neutral in the upcoming Presidential election. That would be terrific.

[blondeatlast]

5. Very unlikely though.

Still, even if Dean's the Dem nominee AND gets the NRA endorsement, he'll be the man on Novemner 2.

I promise.

[KaraokeKarlton]

Actually, there is a slight chance they could endorse him

What a lot of people don't realize about the NRA is that they care very, very much about the environment. They played an instrumental part in helping Dean get the Champion Lands deal worked out and passed. These are hunters and hunters are big on land preservation. Bush has been absolutely horrible on the environment. Dean is sensible on gun control and respectful of the rights and lifestyle of hunters. They did endorse him as governor over the Republican. I guess it's possible that they could endorse him over Bush based on the enviornment and the fact that he's not anti-gun. It would be interesting if they did, that's for sure. I don't believe the NRA will go after Dean. If anything, they will encourage members to vote for Dean in the primaries so they don't have to get involved in the presidential campaign.

Anything could happen with this issue, so we'll just have to wait and see.

[dansolo]

13. I would expect them not to endorse either one

The NRA can probably find enough to endorse Dean, but I imagine that there is going to be a lot of political pressure for them not to endorse him.

[KaraokeKarlton]

15. Well, they'll do what they want to do

But it will certainly help that they don't hate Dean. They actually worked with him to get all the land in Vermont protected from development. A lot of the time I think the NRA gets a bad rap when they share enviornmental ideals with Democrats. :shrug:

[ldoolin]

31. Re: NRA

The NRA are pretty closely involved with the "wise use" movement, at least at the leadership level. There is a very strong conservation/environmental ethic among many hunters which translates into support for such groups as the Nature Conservancy, Isaac Walton League, Audobon Society, Ducks Unlimited etc. (in fact many field staffers for some of these groups are avid hunters and gun owners.) But with the NRA, I haven't seen it.

It would be a pleasant surprise if the NRA did endorse Dean, but I just don't see it happening. In situations where the D and R are both equally good on guns, the NRA will endorse the R as a matter of course, in some cases even when the D is the incumbent. I'm still ticked about the 1994 congressional race in Washington, where the NRA downgraded incumbent Jolene Unsoeld's rating to a "C" (she was one of the most liberal Democrats in Congress but also had one of the strongest pro-gun voting records), so they could get paleoconservative church-lady-nut Linda Smith into the seat. They're just too closely tied to the right wing of the Republican Party to be trusted.

On edit: In fact, I would not be surprised to see the NRA giving Howard Dean a "D-" rating and Dubya Shrub an "A" for the 2004 general election, even though their positions on guns are fairly similar.

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. I don't know, they always endorsed Dean over Republicans in Vermont

it's hard to say, really. Also, Bush has ticked them off with the environment and he might still end up having to renew the assault rifle ban. If he does that, the NRA will endorse Dean just to spite Bush, in my opinion.

Only time will tell.

[1a2b3c]

39. If that gets signed

It wont matter who gets endorsed cause bush is gonna lose a ton of pro gun votes. The NRA, then, probably wont endorse him. He would be fucked. I want to see the AWB go away, but i also want to see bush go away. It would be nice to see both happen, in the same year. :-)

[demnan]

3. Dean prefers that states handle gun control issues

rather than Federal controls on guns. This means that some states would have stricter gun controls than others. Basically this is a support for the status quo on guns in the U.S.A.

I support the Bradey Bill myself, but I have relatives in the South and I know this is a big issue for them. My brother said he would not vote for a candidate who would ban guns.

If a Democrat wants to win they have to be flexible on the gun control issue.

[Monte Carlo]

4. I just can't see the NRA endorsing a Democrat over Bush...

... even if that Democrat does have a 100% or A rating or whatever. The NRA and the GOP are just too comfortable with each other to have such a split during such a high-profile race like the Presidential race in 2004.

[Bandit]

24. I agree totally with your assessment but...

A lot of NRA members are not that cozy with the Republicans and they may not follow the NRA's endorsement if the Democratic candidate is at least somewhat appealing to them. The gun issue is very important to a lot of folks but not necessarily the rest of the Republican agenda. Dean could be the one to break new ground with a lot of these folks. Maybe even the ones in the south with confederate flags on their bumpers and easy rider rifle racks in the back window of their pick-ups. He does not endorse any of the stances of the confederate flag waving good ol boys but he does represent a different outcome to a lot of the other issues that the Republicans only give lip service to. Not just Dean by the way, Senator Kerry also has a lot to offer to this group of people and I'm sure Clark would also be a great help to their cause.

[slackmaster]

28. If both candidates are pro-RKBA the NRA always goes w/incumbent

Regardless of party.

[LuminousX]

6. Remember, NRA Rating is more about inaction than action

Dean hasn't signed any legislation regarding gun control as governor. Mainly because he doesn't see a need for it and Vermonters don't see a need for it. Dean favors the modified assault weapons ban (the one that doesn't classify semi-auto .22 and shotguns as assault weapons) and wants to see the closing of the gun show loophole as well as enforcement of current laws (it is already illegal to buy a handgun from a state that does not border your own... how often is that law enforced?)

I'm not going to get into a gun argument; I'm for them, others are against them - the bottom line is the NRA only rates politicians low if they have taken action against guns.

[blondeatlast]

9. Your post DOES assuage my fears a bit.

I was confused as to his record and the NRA rating, because he does seem to lean my way. Now I see why.

Thanks.

[seventhson]

7. My understanding is this: Dean favors the federal laws

and believes the states should be able to make their own stricter laws.

Vermont is a hunting state and he favors state's rights to allow more or less restrictive laws within the federal mamdates as they feel is appropriate.

I think that his rating has more to do with his votes in Vermont as Governor than his positions on any federal gun laws (in which he had no vote or say).

I would want to hear from gun opponents and proponents in Vermont to get a better idea of what exactly he supported.

Out of all the issues out there, this is a realtove nonstarter for me. It did concern me at first, but his position seems fairly reasonable (he believes NY, for example, should be able to make their own very strict laws, whereas Vermont's with fewer gun problems should be less stringent) and so it does not bother me much.

I believe Jefferson's admonition that tyrannical governments require a constitutional right to bear arms is sound and, after all, even our wonderful Michael Moore is a member of the NRA.

As for Dean, everything else about him is so much better than almost everybody else (I prefer Kucinich on policy too, but reality is he doesn't have the support of our rather conservative democratic base) - and I believe he is the best chance for our future.

Dean/Edwards in 2004

(I have some issues with Edwards too, but I am very concerned about Kerry and Clark and Lieberman and think Edwards has the best chance of helping the ticket)

[blondeatlast]

10. That's not a bad ticket, actually.

Kucinich is my first choice, but I'm realistic. I think Edwards has the best health care agenda, which is a biggie for me.

[KaraokeKarlton]

8. His 100% rating just means he comes from a very pro-gun state

And Vermont is very pro-gun. Gun control would never sell in Vermont. Dean has lived here long enough to see that whether or not there is gun control somewhere, it doesn't have any impact on gun violence. Vermont has virtually no gun crime. We don't need gun control. We have a lot of hunters and gun enthusiasts, not a lot of crime. Dean's position supports what we have combined with better enforcement, using instacheck at gun shows and then letting each state add whatever they want at a state level. New Jersery could benefit from gun control, but Vermont can't.

His position on gun control makes great sense and it totally neutralizes it as a campaign issue. There are hundreds of thousands of hunters who repeatedly vote Republican just because Democrats are seen as being anti-gun, even though they agree with most Democratic principles. Eliminate this as a federal issue...we already have plenty of gun control...and Democrats will start winning in the states they haven't been for a long time. It's about guns. They matter in rural places very much.

[tsipple]

11. Yup

And the Drug War is fueling a lot of gun violence, so it might not be such a bad idea to have a doctor in the White House.

[1a2b3c]

40. I think dean is against medical marijuana

and any other anti war on drugs issues. I am fairly sure he is FOR the war on drugs. Doctors are connected with the drug companies, especially when they are political doctors.

[ldoolin]

33. Dean's electability

His position on gun control makes great sense and it totally neutralizes it as a campaign issue.

And this is why I am convinced that Howard Dean has the best chance against Bush in 2004. Those who don't live in rural areas may look to Nader and hanging chads for our loss in 2000, but you didn't see all the "Vote Bush Or Register Guns" signs. I did. Believe me, the perception that Gore wanted to push for universal gun registration is what sank us, whether that was an actual part of his platform or not (if I remember correctly, it was in Bill Bradley's platform but not Gore's). Reliable Democratic states (West Virginia) and counties (Carbon County, Utah and Greenlee County, Arizona - for example) went Republican in 2000. One of the counties I mentioned has the distinction of being the only county in Arizona to vote for McGovern in 1972, and the only one to favor Carter in 1980 , and in 2000 they voted for Bush, the first time *ever* they went Repug. Gore didn't even win his home state. A win in Tennessee or West Virginia would have made Florida and the Nader factor a moot issue.

Howard Dean favors the status quo, which will at least take that issue off the table and put states like Arizona, Nevada, Tennessee, and West Virginia back in play. *And* he is speaking to issues important to potential Green voters, which will also take the Nader factor off the table. He's a win-win nominee for us. A selection of Bob Graham as the VP nominee would wrap up Florida for us and bring national security credibility to the ticket, and the White House is ours.

Dean/Graham 2004 (or ABB if that doesn't happen.)

[DoNotRefill]

12. The NRA will NOT endorse Dean for President.

Their long-standing policy is to support the incumbent over a challenger if they're both rated the same.

HOWEVER (and this is a BIG however) if there are two pro-gun candidates running for President, it's DOUBTFUL that they'd throw a lot of resources into supporting either one over the other.

Dean as a nominee would negate the effects of the NRA in the Presidential election. Clark or Kerry would energize them, and give them something to fight. Remember, there are 4 million NRA members, most of whom vote, and many of them are single issue voters. The NRA being "in" or "out" in this election cycle could very easily swing the election one way or another.

We don't need the NRA to endorse our candidate. What we need is for them to sit this one out, and neither support nor attack our candidate. Dean poses the best chance of this happening.

This is how our State Governor, Mark Warner, won his election. He didn't come out and say "I oppose gun control". He stated "We've got enough, and I don't think we need more". His opposition's gun control record wasn't great. The NRA didn't endorse either candidate. The Democrat won, with a lot of NRA members supporting him.

If the NRA comes out and says "both candidates are OK", we can win the election. If they come out strongly against our candidate, we're in deep trouble.

[MoonAndSun]

14. The NRA will not endorse a Dem over a repuke for president...

they will fight harder then they have ever fought before to defeat the Dem nominee, no matter who it is.
I just believe that it will be a little harder for them to blast Dean then any of the other candidates.

[DoNotRefill]

30. That's just not true.

If there's no real difference between a Democratic nominee and a Republican nominee, the NRA will stand silent and spend their money where there IS a major difference between candidates.

Take the last VA governor's race as an example. The Republican was infantessimally better on the gun issue than the Democrat. There was no real difference. The NRA stayed OUT of the race, saying neither was perfect but they were both OK. That allowed Warner to clean up in the rural areas, which are notoriously pro-gun. Had the NRA actually endorsed the Republican candidate, and campaigned on his behalf, Warner would have lost.

[AntiCoup2K4]

16. One less talking point for the Republicans to use against us.

It's been speculated that one reason Al Gore lost his own home state of Tennessee in 2000 - which arguably might have negated the Florida coup - was because the NRA was able to convince voters in that state (and many others) that "algore wants to take your guns. ALL of them".

They won't be able to use that against Dean. And that's a good thing.

For the record, I'm not a gun owner... at least not at the moment. But I've given it more serious thought in the last three years than at any other previous time in my life.

[mydawgmax]

22. What else?

Maybe there are other republican issues Dean can take to neutralize gop talking points. Isn't one of Dean's beefs with the other "bush-lite" candidates that they don't stand up to the GOP and let them set the agenda?

[ldoolin]

34. RKBA is not...

...a Republican issue, no matter how much the Repukes want to make it one. It's a civil rights issue.

[Spoonman]

17. The bottom line is simple

This single swing vote issue is critical to winning in 04, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise!

We need a candidate that is percieved as not only endorsed by the NRA, but one that has integrity to wash his hands of the blatant propaganda that surrounds this issue.

I’ll leave the assault weapons ban issue for another day, but let’s address the worst one today.

Every time a candidate speaks about closing the “gun show loophole” he or she gives even more ammo (sorry) to the opposition.
The Republicans love to hear our candidates spew this, because they know that the swing voters, and the vast majority of people know the “gun show loophole” is a myth!

That’s right, it was conjured up by those groups that we as a party have crawled in bed with, and has cost us numerous elections!

A licensed gun dealer must perform, by federal law, the NICs background check on anyone purchasing a gun from him or her. This law applies whether the gun is purchased at a gun show, at a store front, at their home or at of the trunk of their car!!

Every time we scream “gun show loophole” we sound like idiots, because there is no loophole.

A huge portion of people here think that anyone can walk into a gun show and buy a basket full of guns without ever having to go through a background check. WRONG!

The only “loophole” that exists in the background check requirements, is the sale of a firearm between individuals. This loophole also applies to guns sold by individuals through a newspaper ad, a posting at a firearms range bulletin board or a simple transaction between friends and acquaintances.

The sale of a firearm between unlicensed individuals is what the “gun show loophole” screamers are talking about, and it is far from reality.

The “study” presented by HCI that stated only 70% of dealers were conducting checks, fails to mention that those dealers not performing the checks were not required to conduct background checks, because the were not selling firearms!!! They were selling arts and crafts, books, leather holsters, optics, knifes, etc..

Better than 99.5 % of gun dealers at gun shows are licensed dealers, and are required by law to conduct the check.

The unlicensed people that sell at gun shows are so few and far between, closing the “loophole” would achieve no reduction in crime, like some claim it would, and would then place a restriction on an individual to sell his or her personal property.

As an example, if you sell a car to another person through a newspaper ad, should you be required to check the status of their license, or whether they have a DWI conviction? (Be careful how you answer this, because more than 3 times as many people are killed every year in vehicles than by guns).

To me it’s simple, I could not care less what the NRA say’s about a candidate (I am not, never have been, and never will be a member), I care about what the candidate says about this issue.

If Dean can come forward with enough sack to state the facts, he’s got my vote.

[Iverson]

18. possibly Democratic candidate, not Democrat candidate.

details, details

[blondeatlast]

26. Sorry, typo. I'm offended when the Frepps use it, and here I am . . .

Apologies to all.

[Iverson]

32. groovy

We're cool now, man.

[Hep]

19. Where do you stand on guns?

Dean's position is scarecely different from say Kerry's.

But let's not marginalize the issue by saying "guns". Without knowing where YOU stand on guns, how can I explain to you why Dean's position is right or wrong for you?

[billbuckhead]

20. The NRA crowd will vote for Dean in the primary and Bush in the general

The NRA stands against evcerything good in America. Remember that Dean lastest Confederate flag controversy was when was reaching out to the gun crowd in a stump speech. Also remember that Rove buttbuddy Grover Norquist is on the board of the NRA. Dean's NRA hype will help him in the primaries and turn real liberal against him the general while the NRA crowd deserts Dean in the general for the RepuKKKES.

[Hep]

21. Fine with me

We're going to win the primary anyway, and we're going to win the general anyway.

God Bless America!

[KaraokeKarlton]

36. No they won't

You clearly are very misinformed about hunters. Hunters care very deeply about the enviornment and it's no secret that Bush is destroying it. If hunters can vote for someone who is going to support their rights to hunt AND conserve the land so they have somewhere to hunt, they will vote for the one that serves both of their hunting interests rather than just one.

Hunting is really big where I come from, where I live now and in my family. These are good people who respect the environment and even the animals they shoot for food. They do a lot to protect the land and ecosystem the animals rely on and aside from those 2 weeks a year when they go out to secure meat for their family, they would make nearly any sacrifice to save those very animals.

Demonizing the NRA just because you oppose them on guns is silly. There is just as much the NRA members support that you agree with, but it seems that you don't even take the time to look into that because it's just so much easier for some to have someone to be angry at and hate. :shrug:

[blondeatlast]

27. I think I made that fairly clear . . .

[DeanIsAPitbull]

23. "Democrat" candidate? What the hell does that mean?

Since when is "Democrat" an adjective?

[blondeatlast]

25. Typo--sheesh. Excuse the hell out of me.

[Cleita]

29. Guns are a BIG rural issue.

This is something urban dwellers fail to realize. Dean undertands the problem having governed a state that has a large rural population. This is why he is being endorsed by pro-gun groups. Be happy. We may get back those votes lost by the anti-gun lobby. Every issue that gets written in black and white, also has a gray area that can provide answers.

[arewethereyet]

37. its his most marketable endorsement (general electorately)

you and he are closer than you think in opinion.

its a HUGE reason he seems to have popularity in the middle.