Ms. Huffington And Her Flock Again Need A Reality Check

[RBInMaine]

So there is no confusion, I am, on balance, a mainstream liberal by any fair measure: officer in a local Dem committee, have worked on many Dem campaigns, currently working to AGAIN defeat the right wing TABOR tax scheme in Maine, just published an editorial against the right wing attempt to stop our marriage equality law, and on and on and on. My liberal credentials are well established. So I can say without hesitation though that I, and many mainstream liberals, are sick and tired of
ultra-left Obama/Dem bashing that only aids the RePUKES and which Ms. Huffington AGAIN spouted out on THIS WEEK this morning. While I agree with her on some policy matters, she and her devout followers need to step into REALITY before they go Obama-bashing on everything from banks to healthcare to Afghanistan. Again, kindly step into REALITY.

She says President Obama has not shown leadership and that the change he promised has not happened. Is she on Mars? He has been in office just 8 months having inherited a domestic and international MASSIVE MESS after eight horrid years of Bush and R's. As he said when he was elected, this will not all change overnight. Many things will take several years. The "Change" is not and was never promised as an instant 180-degree turn. Anyone who thinks that can happen in the real complexity of American national governing is either totally ignorant, outright stupid, or stark raving crazy. Change means taking steps to get us where we need to be over a reasonable period of time. It means making ADVANCES in a BETTER direction than what we had before. Anyone who doesn't understand this has no sense of reality. American governance is a very complicated process and rightfully designed to be so, and you NEVER make the perfect the enemy of the BETTER. So here are some reminders though of just how much CHANGE we HAVE had in a mere 8 months:

1) Fair Pay Act
2) Bigger SCHIP for kids
3) Stimulus Package creating or saving over a million jobs
4) Many Stem Cell Restrictions Gone
5) Many Choice Restrictions Gone
6) Working To Close Gitmo
7) Renewed Effort On Israel/Palestine
8) Don't Ask Don't Tell On The Way Out
9) Winding Down Iraq
10) Taking the Needed Time to Proceed Smartly on Afghanistan (a very tough one)
11) Yes, MANY new financial system laws/rules pending
12) Much more new investment in the green economy
with an energy bill pending
13) Finally, the best chance we have EVER had to get an ADVANCE on the healthcare crisis
14) A major shift toward multi lateral diplomacy
15) A task force on policies that improve lives of the middle class headed by Biden
16) Signing a new hate crimes law in days
(And much, much more that you can research easily.)

As to TARP, it happened under Bush and, much as it stunk on the one hand, it was NEEDED to prevent a depression and it did. We could not allow the banking system to collapse no matter who was to blame. Banks are now repaying with interest, things are slowly adjusting, and new rules are on the way. Research it.

I will agree that the one big mistake Obama/Dems have made since they won is too much effort to work bi-partisanly with the RePUKES. The RePUKES have ZERO intention of working with Dems on major issues like healthcare because they want Obama/Dems to fail for 2010. More Dems do need to act like they won an election, have a mandate, force the narrative, and say FU to RePUKES and brand them as DO-NOTHING corporate obstructionists.

But, to say Obama "has not led" when he has been to town hall after town hall, given speech after speech including to congress, is laying his very presidency on the line constantly with healthcare on which he has pushed like hell...THIS MAN HAS GOD DAMN WELL LED.

Is there much, much more to do? Damn right. YES, more lobbying reform. YES, more financial regulation (IT IS COMING). And yes to many other things, BUT, IT TAKES TIME.

We HAVE had CHANGE. MAJOR CHANGE. Christ, he just got the Nobel being seen as someone who, through some very good initial steps, is improving our world image, working toward ridding the world of nuclear weapons, and working cooperatively again to solve global problems.

Bush is gone after eight long years. Sorry if some people are disappointed that Obama hasn't been able to completely change the world overnight. But, under a crushing weight of INHERITED and horrendous challenges, this good man is not only a breath of fresh air, he IS leading, and in eight short months has done some damn good things we would never have gotten under a RePUKE.

PS: The American President just won the Nobel Peace Prize. All Americans, especially the likes of
Ms. Huffington, should be proud and rejoicing today.

[YOY]

1. "Ultra-leftists"?

Yeah...whatever.

[RBInMaine]

7. Well, yeah. "Liberal" is mainstream. But, sorry, some are just too far out there.

[ericgtr]

10. Yep, we have a lot of extreme leftists in our party

Who are eager to fry Obama before his first year is up.

[RBInMaine]

13. Ideological extremism is dangerous regardless of which side of the spectrum.

Extremists can't compromise at all. They want all or nothing or are never satisfied. This is NOT reality. "Good" is better than "nothing." Huffington would prefer nothing on healthcare rather than something better than the status quo. She is an extremist in many ways. She is outside reality.

[Bjorn Against]

27. "Centrists" are often ideological extremists as well

And those who can not accept criticism of a political party or leader are most certainly ideological extremists.

[RBInMaine]

35. Read again. I do some criticizing. But incessant bitching and bashing is insane, plain and simple.

[Bjorn Against]

42. You have done plenty of incessant bashing in this thread.

[RBInMaine]

50. Calling out Obama bashers isn't bashing. It is reality checking. They are counter productive

circular firing squaders undermining our efforts to see him and Dems succeed, make some progress, and defeat RePUKES. Keep up your circular reasoning and cicular arguing if you must. It fits well with your circular firing squading which has no place on Democratic Underground whose rules say we are to support Democrats, and I think that would include President Obama.

[bvar22]

93. So you formed your own circular firing squad ...

...bashing loyal Democrats many of whom have worked longer and harder than you have.

Nice....and revealing.

[YOY]

109. No. Just sticking to what I stand for..as a Democrat who has worked quite hard enough.

I support the president. I also question him when necessary. I think it's within my rights to. So please, stop playing coy and wise as if you've uncovered some clandestine "Leftist" agent or even more hilariously some deep cover FReeper troll who has wasted this much time playing undercover worry wart/concern troll at a website that was up until very recently quite in sync with what the Democratic branch of the Democratic party stood for. It's not only condescending, it's pathetic. And demanding obedience and lock stepping when sporting a "V for Vendetta" av is really hypocritical.

[Bjorn Against]

114. You may want to reread that, that post was not a response to yours

I suspect you and Bvar22 are actually in agreement.

[YOY]

118. Sorry. Ignore my stupidity above.

I thought you were calling me out.

[RBInMaine]

132. The Democratic wing of the Democratic party supports Democrats once in office too, unlike Huffing-

ton and Nader types with their incessant out of reality criticism because what they want isn't all here in 8 months, or because they don't want to compromise at all in the real world, or because a given policy isn't far enough to the left, and so on. Howard Dean, a mainstream liberal who strongly supports Obama/Dems, is from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party, not the likes of Huffington and Nader. (Yes, I know Huffington and Nader are actually independents, but I am speaking of those farleft folks who share their overall views and approaches.) Saying Obama should not have tried for the Olympics is foolish. Saying he has not led is foolish. Saying no healthcare bill is better than Obama's plan is foolish. It is foolish and counterproductive if you are interested in some advances toward at least a more progressive, even if not perfectly progressive in every way. Yes, she has every right to her opinions, and I have a right to mine too which is that her approach and her rhetoric and those who are in "lockstep" with her and/or such opinions is totally foolish given the context of this new adminstration, what it inherited, and all that has been done and/or is being worked on and/or planned. Please, don't forget the context.

[mkultra]

68. sure, and war is peace right?

[Bjorn Against]

88. No, but that is what the "centrists" who supported the war in Iraq want us to believe

"Centrists" can be very ideological.

[mkultra]

141. i see, your just confused

between centrists and puppets.

[Arkana]

90. It's not a matter of not accepting criticism. It's defending the guy we helped get elected

against knee-jerk criticism of every little bullshit move he makes.

Goddamnit, there are people here (and at Freak Republic) who raise a stink every time Obama so much as leans the wrong way on the can while taking his morning shit.

[dionysus]

120. today's duke reveals he doesn't get enough fiber. what an utter failure of a president..

[RBInMaine]

134. Thanks, Yes, for Christ sake let's support this guy and give him a chance !

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

153. We extreme leftists in our party, whatever that is, but they are not as influential

or powerful as the DLC Centrists and Blue Dogs who tend to be joined at the hip with Republicans. Yes, Obama deserves some of the blame because he's not exercising true leadership on this health care issue, allowing the Republicans to define and control the terms of the debate for him and the Dems. However, the Democratic Party itself is to be blamed because we cannot come together on many of these salient issues due to the prominence of the DLC and the Blue Dogs. And the tragedy of it all is that the Blue Dogs, in particular, represent very small populations. So, in essense, we are allowing Senators who represent a small minority of the population control and dictate policy outcomes for the rest of us!

[YOY]

14. Yes there are...and these aren't them.

"Ultra Leftists" vote Green or not at al. Not Dem. And "Leftist" itself is a wanker term.

[RBInMaine]

18. Got a better term? Obama bashers like Huffy are the wankers. Enter reality.

[YOY]

21. Funny. Your "reality" sounds so familiar...

It's like believing that someone can't criticize a politician party without being construed as being against that politician or party...

Now, who thinks like that?


"Reality" is a little more complex than that.

Stop shooting yourself in the foot. Stop shitting on the left-of-center in the same way that the right does.

THe "left-of-center" elects (and re-elects) Democrats.

Here is some reality. There has been progress and some of us want to see it keep coming.

How's that?

[RBInMaine]

37. WRONG ! Actually moderate independents elect Presidents and many others. This is exactly where

folks like you lose it. Sure, the left of center folks (and I am, though no where near the fringe) work the phones and knock on doors, but the VOTERS who determine national level and other larger elections in statewide contests are the moderate independents. This is who the RePUKES lost in 06 and 08. The opportunity here is to pin Rush and Beck etc. to them so mods will continue to leave them and come to our side. But, if we are seen as going too far left, they'll vote RePUKE again.
Carter, Clinton, and Obama all won because they carried the Indys. Plain and simple.

[Bjorn Against]

40. You need the votes from the left as well, if you don't have their votes and activism you lose.

[RBInMaine]

43. But the indys swing it all one way or another. And, once we win, we show some SUPPORT !!

[YOY]

48. Sounds "sheeplike". Yet you call those "ultra-leftists" "Huffington's flock"

I am afraid that if you persist in this that you will be looking at a repeat of Clinton. 4-8 years of competence followed by the left not voting or voting Green. Bush III.

Those "Ultra leftists" are not a "small flock". They are a voting block. They are not asking for the star and the moon with the same pinache as the "birfers". They actually have a point.

Some might say that they cost Gore the election in 2000 because they were being ignored by the DLC's little "third way".

[RBInMaine]

63. You DO NOT work to elect people and then commence to bash them. They need to quit it !

[YOY]

103. You say "bash" and I say discuss and criticize.

Unless for you Demanding Single Payer = Birther crazy shit.

[Bjorn Against]

53. It isn't one group that swings the election, all voters swing the election

The votes of independents are not worth any more than the votes of progressives, if you spend your time beating up on the left they are not going to be motivated to help you out any more. I volunteered for Obama in the last election, but after being beat up on so much by people like you I have decided to focus all my activism on issues and I will never campaign for Obama or any other Democrat again. I am involved in more activism than probably 90% of the people on this site, but until Democrats can learn that they should listen to the people who do the work for them rather than beat up on them then they should not expect me to work for their campaigns any more. There are plenty of non-partisan anti-war groups and civil liberties groups that need volunteers and that is who I am going to help until the Democrats learn not to alienate their base.

[RBInMaine]

59. I am only "beating up" on those who bash Dems we worked so hard to elect. Think again.

[RBInMaine]

60. Try poli-sci 101 at your local community college. That may help.

[Bjorn Against]

64. I not only have taken poli-sci, I am out in the streets every single week

Are you involved in anything politically aside from posting on message boards?

[RBInMaine]

71. Re-read my OP. Did the poli-sci prof. cover election stats? Indys are the swing voters.

[Bjorn Against]

79. Yes they did, and they told me that everyone's vote counts the same.

[mkultra]

72. I have a doctorate in political science and you are wrong.

The base is great, but the middle is what wins it. Any candidate that serves his base will always lose. He must instead serve the middle and calm the base because they usually are irrational enough to shoot themselves in the foot for the wrong reasons. That willful ignorance is pretty much what drives them to the fringe.

The best illustration of this point is Sarah Palin.

[Bjorn Against]

77. I live in the state that elected Wellstone, he got his base motivated.

The base are the people who are involved in get out the vote efforts, their vote counts the same as the independents but the base does far more work to get the vote out than the independents do. If you have a doctorate in political science you should know this.

[mkultra]

115. i know that this isnt really true

Some members of the base work tirelessly but many do not work at all. Obama's win is a prime example. Statistics have shown that his support came primarily from new participants in the political system. Wellstone was a great man that did have great support from the base, but again, his victories are more attributable to grass roots movements, much like obama, than simply the base. If you where deeply involved, you should no this.

I think you may be confusing the base with the grass roots crowd.

[RBInMaine]

96. Thank you. Nationally, the middle swings it, just as it did in 06 and 08. Now,

local and some state level races are obviously different and demographics are often much narrower. But at the national level, as you say, it is moderates/Indys who determine the outcome. This is why they are called the SWING voters. Whoever wins them at the end of the day wins the Presidency. Our opportunity here is to keep wnning the center by pushing the R's out of the mainstream and to the far right in Palin land which moderates won't accept.

[RBInMaine]

62. Huffington "beat up" on MY President today, and I am sick of THAT.

[Bjorn Against]

28. No "ultra-leftists" don't vote Green, they support Stalinism

And they are so rare in the United States that people would be hard pressed to find a single one of them. Greens and progressive Democrats would be considered moderate throughout most of western Europe.

[RBInMaine]

44. Green? And how many seats in congress do they have? Many are damn flaky in Maine.

[YOY]

49. That's just it. We don't HAVE "ultra leftists." The Greens are about as left as you can get here.

But before the OP edited their post it was some such about Huffington and folks who agree with her being "ultra leftists"

THe thought itself is laughable.

[RBInMaine]

58. Maybe far-left is better? Don't get hung up on semantics. You get the point. And

yes, there are some WAY out there on the fringe here. Plenty of Obama and Dem bashing that is needless, counter productive, only helps the RePUKES, and violates the spirit of this site's rules.
We get enough shit from the PUKES. Why not use your energy to bash them? Wouldn't that make more sense in electoral politics? I assume you've done some campaign work. ?

[YOY]

106. That's just it. It's not the fringe. They vote and they vote democratic.

Although this may not be the middle ground it is a 10-20% that is not worth forsaking. Not unless you want to repeat the mistakes of the past. YEah sure you play to the middle but you don't shit on your base.


There is a 5-10% fringe outside of that. THat would be your Frince: Perry Logan types.

And this is not the way to preserve a democratic majority or to return balance to the American political systme.

[RBInMaine]

128. Good. So let them support the people they vote for once in office.

[mkultra]

116. i prefer the new term; Leftbeckian

[Cha]

24. That's putting it

politely, imv.

[monmouth]

2. I noticed many posters at HuffPo are also wondering what her

problem is... They mention her negativity and are not amused.

[Cha]

52. Thank you for that, monmouth~ Thankfully,

people can think for themselves on what is happening around them and not just follow somebody who for whatever reason is choosing to ignore the reality of the situation.

[vaberella]

55. For all her "liberal" thinkings at time...I still think she's a right-winger overall.

Just moderate.

[still_one]

3. Ms. huffington is a fraud who trys to walk the walk and talk the talk, but she is just another

opportunist trying to exploit

From her republican past, and one of the major voices calling for the impeachment of Clinton, her only agenda is money, not conviction for a cause

[Uzybone]

4. Its pretty clear to me that Huffington really isnt interested in policy

she is just more interested in getting her face out there. Her flip flops on basically every issue from decade to decade are amazing.

[RBInMaine]

11. She seems to have pretty minimal detailed policy knowledge. And the Obama bashing is just IGNORANT !

[Faygo Kid]

5. Excellent post, but I don't think bashing Arianna is the way to go.

I admire her greatly, and had the opportunity to meet and spend time with her when she was still a conservative. I found her gracious and lovely (OK, hot), unlike the other reich wingers I spent time with back then, including Robert Bork (utter slob) and William F. Buckley Jr. (self-absorbed turdball).

[RBInMaine]

8. No, her (and some others) bashing Obama is NOT the way to go.

[jenmito]

6. Yup-she even said it was wrong of him to go to Copenhagen to try to

win the Olympics, saying he has more important things to worry about like healthcare and unemployment, like he could've done anything about those things in the 18 hours he was gone. :eyes:

[vaberella]

65. Well that made me done with her---for real. n/t

[DireStrike]

9. "Working on/pending/on the way"

STOP including these things in these lists. They only undermine your point.

[RBInMaine]

12. BS ! Unless you too are so out of reality that you think it can all be done instantly.

[DireStrike]

111. They don't have to be done instantly

But they don't count as accomplishments until they're done.

[RBInMaine]

131. Trying, attempting, working toward he right end is worthy of credit.

[DJ13]

15. I applaud those who refuse to accept middle of the road policies

We can get that under Republican administrations that dont expect liberal support to win office.

[RBInMaine]

17. Then you applaud ZERO progress. Read your civics. Read your history. Enter reality.

[DJ13]

23. Then you applaud ZERO progress.

Middle of the road is why our country is in such a mess.

Isnt it time we get decisive policies to put us back on track?

If you like the status quo feel free to continue supporting policies that guarantee things stay the same.

[ProSense]

16. A few things for your list

This includes funding for Obama's global poverty initiative: Kerry, Lugar Amendment To Restore Full Funding To President Obama's International Affairs Budget

Stopping Conflict-related Sexual Violence Against Women and Children

The UN, Women & Girls

New policy steps towards Cuba

Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty with Russia

Strategy to address the international nuclear threat

For the Media: "30+ Reasons Obama deserves the Nobel Peace Prize"

[RBInMaine]

19. Thanks ! Huffy should be touting all this, not attacking Obama.

[Cha]

25. She's in the wanker category. She's lying

if she said he hasn't done anything.

What your President has accomplished"..as of July 20, 2009

PO also just gave a Mission Statement Address to the UN that has a vision of a peaceful world..and the UN just approved a Resolution to rid the world of nukes.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33001551/ns/world_news-unit ... /

I'd say he has a bit of Progress here.

Political Tiger (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-20-09 06:36 PM
Original message

"What your President has accomplished just 6 months into his first term"

Signed executive orders to close the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, within a year, ban torture and end the CIA’s secret overseas prisons and define treatment of Detainees.

Reversed restrictions on stem cell research.

Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. Reducing discrimination based on gender, age, religion, or race.

Signed an executive order reversing the ban that prohibits funding to international family planning groups that provide abortions. Gag rule revoked (Mexico City policy).

Creates the White House Council on Women and Girls "to provide a coordinated federal response to the challenges confronted by women and girls and to ensure that all Cabinet and Cabinet-level agencies consider how their policies and programs impact women and families."

Signed a Presidental Memorandum extending federal benefits to same-sex partners of federal workers and announced support for the Domestic Partners Benefits and Obligations Act of 2009.

Reverses U.S. position on LGBT Issues at the UN: At the "Durban Review Conference," U.S. supports language condemning “all forms of discrimination and all other human rights violations based on sexual orientation.”

Signed executive order requiring federal contractors to offer jobs to current workers when contracts change.

Reversed a Bush order requiring federal contractors to post notice that workers can limit financial support of unions serving as their exclusive bargaining representatives.

Signed executive order preventing federal contractors from being reimbursed for expenses meant to influence workers deciding whether to form a union and engage in collective bargaining.

Created a foreclosure prevention fund for homeowners.

Expanded eligibility for the refinancing portion of the Making Home Affordable plan to help Americans struggling with distressed mortgages refinance at lower interest rates, even if they owe up to 25 percent more than their homes are now worth.

Established a credit card "bill of rights".

Expanded loan programs for small businesses.

Extended and index the 2007 Alternative Minimum Tax patch.

Expanded eligibility for State Children's Health Insurance Fund (SCHIP).

Expanded funding to train primary care providers and public health practitioners.

Created a new White House task force on the problems of middle-class Americans, and installed Vice President Joe Biden as its chairman.

Appoints Vice President Joe Biden to Oversee Stimulus Plan Payouts.

Granted a reprieve to Liberian immigrants facing imminent expulsion.

Directed military leaders to end war in Iraq.

Allowing Caskets to be photographed when the return from Iraq with family approval.

Released nine previously secret internal Justice Department memos and opinions defining the legal limits of government power in combating terrorism.

On Arab TV Network, Obama Urges Dialogue.

Gave a speech in Cairo engaging the Muslim and Arab world.

Bars independent contractors from conducting interrogations of terror suspects.

Granted Americans unrestricted rights to visit family and send money to Cuba.

Ordered the release of nearly a quarter of a million pages of records from the Reagan White House that were kept from the public during a lengthy review by President George W. Bush.

Restored funding for the Byrne Justice Assistance Grant (Byrne/JAG) program.

Released presidential records.

Required new hires to sign a form affirming their hiring was not due to political affiliation or contributions.

Pushed for enactment of Matthew Shepard Act, which expands hate crime law to include sexual orientation and other factors.

Invites gay families to the Easter Egg Roll as part of the Obama administration's outreach to diverse communities.

Created a White House Office on Urban Policy.

Increased funding for the NEA.

Appointed an assistant to the president for science and technology policy.

Funded a major expansion of AmeriCorps.

Banned lobbyist gifts to executive employees.

Investment in all types of alternative energy.

Enacted tax credit for consumers for plug-in hybrid cars.

Support for high-speed rail.

Provided grants to encourage energy-efficient building codes.

Extended unemployment insurance benefits and temporarily suspend taxes on these benefits.

Created the White House Council on Automotive Communities and Workers to help auto industry workers transition to new manufacturing opportunities, including jobs in alternative energy.

Stopped raids on medical marijuana dispensers.

Nominated Sonia Sotomayor to the Supreme Court of the United States. If confirmed, Sotomayor would be the first Hispanic to ever serve on the Supreme Court.

Appointed more than 60 openly LGBT persons to positions in the executive branch.

Issues Presidential Proclamation for Pride, proclaiming June 2009 as Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride Month.

Signed a mercury reduction pact with 140 other nations.

Signed the Weapons System Acquisition Reform Act to curb wasteful spending by the Pentagon. Intended to price contracts and budgets lower; may potentially save billions of dollars in defense.

Signed the Omnibus Public Lands Management Act of 2009, which serves to protect two million acres of land and creates a new system of land conservation for the Bureau of Land Management.

Phase out government payments to crop producers making more than $500,000 a year and eliminates subsidies for cotton storage to help trim the U.S. budget deficit.

Cut funding for a proposed U.S. nuclear storage facility at Yucca Mountain.

Restored Endangered Species Act Provision requiring U.S. agencies consult with independent federal experts to determine if their actions might harm threatened and endangered species.

Orders The Chesapeake Bay Protection and Restoration "to protect and restore the health, heritage, natural resources, and social and economic value of the Nation's largest estuarine ecosystem and the natural sustainability of its watershed."

Signed the 2009 Omnibus Public Land Management Act designating two million additional acres of public wilderness areas the highest level of government protection from logging and other forms of commercial use and development.

Signed the Christopher and Dana Reeve Paralysis Act which will expedite the search for cures and treatments for millions of Americans living with paralysis caused by spinal cord injury, stroke, MS, Parkinson's and many other diseases and disorders.

Established The Joint Virtual Lifetime Electronic Record, a new system for updating medical records of servicemen and women both during and after their military careers.

Established the White House Office of Health Reform

Created new and stronger safety standards to safeguard the country's food supply.

and

Got his daughters a new puppy!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8538282

Here's Political Fact on Obama's scorecard..

<snip>

The Obameter Scorecard
Promise Kept
47 Compromise
12 Promise Broken
7 Stalled
12 In the Works
112 No Action
325 PolitiFact has compiled more than 500 promises that Barack Obama made during the campaign and is tracking their progress on our Obameter.

We rate their status as No Action, In the Works or Stalled. Once we find action is completed, we rate them Promise Kept, Compromise or Promise Broken.

The report card at right provides an up-to-the-minute tally of all the promises.

Other ways to browse the Obameter

All promises
PolitiFact's Top 25 Promises
By Subject
Economy
Energy
Military

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises /

[Flaneur]

112. Uh, the medical marijuana raids continue.

The feds just busted a legal dispensary in San Diego last week.

[asdjrocky]

20. Her flock? wow nt

[RBInMaine]

47. Hopefully it is a small flock.

[asdjrocky]

You're rude, which matters little.

You are also delusional, which can be very dangerous. I dislike neo-cons precisely because of these kind of attacks.

It's never 100% for thinking people. Thinking people disagree on some key issues.

The kind of language you use in your post is used on a regular basis in an effort to shut down debate, and when debate is shut down decisions are made in a vacuum.

I'm pro Obama, but more than that, I'm pro dialog.

[RBInMaine]

130. YOU are rude and delusional if you think you can help Dems by attacking their

office holders all the time, especially those who have only been in office for eight months. Again, read the OP. Talk to me again when you understand its main point in context. If you want to call foul because I said "flock" or something like then you are allowing thinskinnedness to cloud your understanding.

[question everything]

22. Like Bill Maher, Huffington and, perhaps Daily Kos

who led the attacks on Bush and Cheney now have to find a new way to stay relevant, to be invited to other shows, to be quoted.

The only way to do this is to attack Obama, any way they can, without bothering to check their facts or to ask questions.

I think that the only ones who has not lost their center, yet, are Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow.

[RBInMaine]

45. Yeah. Enough of that shit. I like Maher and Kos generally, but don't bash Obama. That's overboard.

[Uzybone]

26. Her latest crap is calling on Rangel to resign immediately

with friends like her....

[joeycola]

29. I think the Dem leaders best get this ethics investigation

over and done with very soon. I can't believe they left it out there--as they had to be aware that the RW would jump on them=and they have.

[JCMach1]

73. I agree... check the outstanding charges against Rangel

... it is way too big to ignore.

[Garam_Masala]

30. By now y'all should have realized what makes Ariana tick

and it is writing columns which will draw attention.
By criticizing Obama she gets attention!
If she praised him?....no big deal....she was pro-Obama before election.

[Cha]

57. Yeah, the MO of all mediawhores..too lazy to think of a

hook that involves reality.

[Bjorn Against]

31. If you can't accept that some people are going to disagree with your candidate you are the extremist

Extremism does not just exist on the left and right ends of the spectrum as so many would like us to believe. Anyone who does not accept that people might disagree with them, their party or their candidate is an extremist. I have found many of the "centrists" to be among the most extreme, they demand "compromise" yet they are rarely willing to compromise themselves. The compromise they suggest is almost always their own position, they don't give any ground they only demand that others give ground to them and then dismiss anyone who doesn't go along with them as an "extremist". We know who the real extremists are though, they are the partisan hacks who demand loyalty and can not handle dissent.

[RBInMaine]

34. Candidacy is OVER. He is the President now. Only insanity allows one to think he or she can get

everything he or she wants at all, let alone over night. Sheesh. Some people are NEVER, EVER satisfied, and that means they are OUT of reality. Period.

[Bjorn Against]

39. No one said they expect everything

We don't expect to get everything, but we do expect the right to state our opinions and stand up for what we believe in. If you think everyone should be expected to get on board and not voice dissent then you are the one who needs to get in touch with reality.

[RBInMaine]

41. Dissent dissent dissent dissent.... does it ever end? Is there one positive syllable?

[Bjorn Against]

46. I have said plenty of positive things about Obama in the past

I like that he has made a commitment to end torture, I like that he has appointed an energy secretary that is serious about stopping global warming, I like that he put money in the stimulus for public works projects, there are plenty of positive things.

When I disagree with him however I am going to speak dissent whether you like it or not. You think that I am not positive, but the tone of most of your posts in this thread are very negative so you have no standing when you demand that others are positive towards your position.

[RBInMaine]

54. Read the rules. We are to support Dems on this forum. Your unending "dissent" only helps the

RePUKES. Why do it here? We get enough criticism from the RePUKES. Why help them?

[Bjorn Against]

66. I voted for Obama and I have read the rules

The rules clearly allow for dissent as long as it does not echo Republican talking points, I challenge you to find one thing I have ever said that echoes the Republicans.

[RBInMaine]

69. So why not pour your "dissent" energy into attacking RePUKES instead of your own? Why heap on Obama?

Doesn't he get enough "dissent" from them?

[Bjorn Against]

74. I am willing to bet that I have poured far more energy into attacking Republicans than you have

I protested outside the last two Republican National Conventions, I crashed my Republican Governor's big photo op, I protest outside my Republican Congressman's office EVERY SINGLE WEEK despite police harassment and intimidation, I have documented all of this in my journal on this site. I am willing to bet I have spent more time fighting against Republicans in the last year than you have in your entire life.

My question is why don't YOU stop attacking the left when it is the left that works on your campaigns and helps you get elected?

[RBInMaine]

82. I am NOT attacking "the left", only calling into reality those who spend most of their time

attacking Dems because they don't get everything they want. When people who are supposed to be on our side say, "Obama is not leading" or "No health bill is better than Obama's" and "Obama is not changing anything" and all the rest of that nonsense then we need to give those circular firing squaders the god damn reality check they need. Period. As to activism, I have worked to defeat right wingers and right wing causes (see my OP) for years on the streets, in the papers, on the internet, among my family and acquaintances, in front of the tv cameras, at rallies, in marches, in picket lines, in my home with house parties and gatherings, .......... more than anyone could shake a god damn stick at. No worries pal. I've been right there on the front lines too, time and time again. Just phone banked yesterday. Got up early and put out signs this morning. More phone banking tomorrow. Need anything else?

[bvar22]

122. Actually, you are WRONG about this too.

"Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates."

Notice, the rules don't say "supportive of Centrist or Moderate ideals".

It also doesn't say "supportive of Democrats".
The rules say, "support Democratic candidates for political office."

I supported Obama for office. I donated, campaigned, and voted for Obama.
I also give Obama the highest rank possible in EVERY pole I am involved in.
So did most if not all of the Democrats YOU are bashing today.

It would be a good idea for YOU to go and read the rules.
You can find them here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

[RBInMaine]

127. All you did was confirm what I said. I said, "the spirit of the rules" meaning the obvious intent

of the rules which I am very familiar with or would not have said it. The site CAN NOT affiliate directly with the Democratic Party because that is obviously an entirely separate legal entity. If you would also re-read "About DU" you will remind yourself that the intent of the site is for Democrats and progressives to voice "shared values" and opposition to Republicans and conservatives.
The very clear and obvious intent of this website is for liberals, progressives, and Democrats to unite and share information and ideas toward calling out and attacking RePUKE and right wing policies and propaganda. For progressives in this country, the most powerful political arm is the Democratic Party. As you note, we are to support Democratic candidates. I think it only follows that the intent is also to, on very large balance, to support them once they attain office. It is overwhelmingly clear that the intent of the site is to attack our right wing opponents, not Democrats.

[bvar22]

133. Still wrong.

Post # 54 by you in this thread:
QUOTE:

"Read the rules. We are to support Dems on this forum."

No mention of the "spirit" of the rules.

post #127 by you in this thread:
QUOTE:

I said, "the spirit of the rules" meaning the obvious intent

"Meaning the obvious intent"?
Obvious intent...obvious to whom?.....YOU?
You are far from an unbiased judge.
In fact, you have an obvious conflict of interest.
You wish to change the rules to fit your own personal interpretation as to the way YOU would like DU to be.

Obvious intent?
No, I think we should to stick to the Letter of the LAW.
The rules are very specific.

If you go start your own website, then you can make up the rules.
Not here.



Case closed.

[RBInMaine]

136. I think in another response I said "spirit" or "intent" of the rules, but if not here then

elsewhere as I have often done on this site. So if you want to get hung up on each and every little word, then I now beg your pardon and allow me to say, as I have many times over the years here, the "intent" of the rules which to me seems obvious enough for anyone with a third grade education - or do you argue that the intent of the site is that anything goes including incessant bashing of Democratic office holders? Is that your argument given the rules and stated purpose here on their "About DU" page? If so I suggest you read again. Even in the precise wording does it in no way say it is just fine and dandy to attack Democratic office holders, nor that that is the purpose of the site. There is certainly no overt invitation for that. They do say there are going to be differences of opinion on some issues. Fine. But some of the almost constant Dem/Obama bashing I see here obviously does not conform to the larger intent of the site which is both clearly expressed and self evident. Of course we can ask site management for an opinion. They'd probably say that they have to be flexible given the huge volume of content, but that the overarching purpose and preference is for users to share values, goals, ideas, opinion, information, and rhetoric toward calling out RePUKES, not always attacking our own office holders and certainly not our own President. In fact site management has essentially expressed this to me directly in the past when I have asked about certain Obama-bashing posts, which is also why I have no problem asserting what I have about the intention of the site. Go to another site? Those who want to bash Dems can GO to another site. Freepland comes to mind. I support Obama and Democrats all the time. Very occasionally I offer a fair critique as I have done right in this very OP, but this OP overwhelmingly supports Obama and I constantly support Dems here which is the clear thrust of the site's intent.

[vaberella]

51. "Candidate"----Woah....I'm sensing someone is still smarting Obama won.

Can't even just call the man, President...disgusting.

[Bjorn Against]

70. I voted and campaigned for President Obama

I have no problem calling him President, you read way too much into my words.

[RBInMaine]

76. Great and thanks, Now be so good as to thank him for all the damn good things he has done and is

working on for us. Sure, we can all have some criticisms of our own here and there. But to bitch and whine and piss and moan constantly as some on the very left do day in and day out, and for Huffington and some others to bitch at and pick at Obama going so far to say "He is not leading" with no acknowledgement for all he has done and is trying to do is just plain SHITTY, nonsensical, and I am sick to death of it and so are most Dems. Give the man some god damn credit and stop helping the PUKES !

[Bjorn Against]

81. The Republicans sure don't think I am helping them, they have stuck the police on me

I have literally faced down riot police for confronting the Republicans, my Republican Congressman has being sticking the police on us trying to get us to go away but we keep showing up every single week despite the intimidation tactics. The only people who say I am helping the Republicans are people like you who feel the need to beat up on anyone to the left of them who dares to speak their mind.

[RBInMaine]

84. Occasional "criticism" is one thing. Incessant Obama bashing is SHITTY and NEEDLESS !

[Bjorn Against]

92. And I have not engaged in "incessant Obama bashing"

While I have criticized Obama I don't think you could find anything that I have written on this site that would qualify as "incessant Obama bashing" unless of course you think all criticism is incessant Obama bashing. I have easily said as many supportive words of Obama as I have said criticisms, you just assume I must be a "basher" because I disagree with you.

[RBInMaine]

100. Huffington is out of reality in what she is saying about Obama's leadership and what is possible. If

you agree with her, you are breaking the "reality rules" of politics and real governance. Politics is the art of the possible given the realities of the system and the times. She wants a certain set of policies, and anything short of that she bashes. It is counterproductive and outside reality. Plain and simple.

[Bjorn Against]

105. I agree with Huffington on some things and disagree with her on others

I hate to break it to you though but your opinion is not the definition of "reality rules", if Huffington wants different policy she has every right to call for it because that is what democracy is all about.

[bertman]

32. Couldn't disagree more. I hope Arianna Huffington and all of the rest of US left-wing

"extemists", as you call us, will continue to hold the President's feet to the fire. You are badly mistaken when you say that she and we do not recognize that President Obama is making some good decisions and moving in a new direction from his predecessor. What we are unhappy with is the center-right lean of his cabinet and many of his policies.

If Huffington and the rest of us radical/liberal/progressive Democrats can push the discussion and the policy-making farther to the left with our honest appraisal of President Obama's accomplishments, even you might be happy, RBInMaine.

By the way, we reserve the right to NOT be lemming-like sycophants to any politician.

[RBInMaine]

33. You do not reserve the right to bash Obama on DU. That helps the RePUKES as you wreck your own cause

[bertman]

36. You say "bash" when, in fact, I am doing my duty as a citizen of this country to express

my opinion as to how the government (including the President I worked hard to get elected) is reflecting my wishes.

I don't "bash" President Obama anywhere. Sometimes I do strongly criticize his actions or failures to act or his appointments or lack of appointments. If I were to keep my mouth shut or just praise the President as if he were doing everything I want him to do, I would be complicit in letting the political agenda take its own course, rather than trying to make it hew to the course I want.

It's been my impression my entire life that American politics is supposed to be about what the People want. I'm one of the People. The President is one of the People. We both believe in the freedom to express our beliefs.

[RBInMaine]

38. So please list your satisfactions with Obama, as I have. Go ahead. Show me.

[bertman]

78. I list my approval of President Obama in thread after thread on DU. I don't have to list

anything for you or show you anything.

Who the fuck do you think you are, the arbiter of who is a true Democrat? Or just another asshole who wants to control how everybody else thinks?

[RBInMaine]

87. I'm a dedicated Democrat who supports OUR President and is sick of extemists bashing him which only

aids the RePUKES. If you think it is ok to stand in a circular firing squad please go do it somewhere else. The majority of Dems are tired of it. We prefer to fire at the Republicans, not our own.

[bertman]

117. You sound like a Republican in your dedication to blindness in service of your political party.

I prefer an open debate where dedicated Democrats who have different opinions of the President and the party's performance are free to state their opinions without being labeled as members of a firing squad.

We become a stronger party and a stronger nation when all voices are heard in the debate--even those with whom we disagree.

[RBInMaine]

125. Boy, when you miss a point you miss it very thoroughly. No one is saying there should

"never" be any discussion or critiqing of a politician or one's own party. Again, read my OP and you will see that I have criticized Obama for trying to be too bipartisan, which is shared by Huffington. But yes, MUCH more often than not in electoral party politics you support your team. You tout their accomplishments. You stand together. And you train your fire on the opposition party. That is what electoral party politcs is all about. That is how you form a strong narrative. That is how you win. You don't get everything you want all the time, and when you don't you go pissing, moaning, and "dissenting" against your own team, especially when they have just started. Christ, at least give them a fair amount of time, especially when trying to right the wrongs of 8 long years of Bush. I see AWFUL posts on this forum attacking Obama and Dem leaders, and it is WRONG to be doing it if you are going to call yourself a Democrat. Attack the Republicans here. Don't air the "dirty laundry" in public, or go start your own political party.

[Flaneur]

113. You need to start your own message board.

Then you can tell everyone who disagreees with you to shut up. Until then, not so much.

[RBInMaine]

129. Re-Read the purpose of the site. Want to spend time bashing Dems, YOU can go to Freeper land.

[Cha]

56. Lying her ass off is not holding feet to the fire.. I don't call them

extreme left wing..I call 'em lying wankers.

If they can't tell the truth then they can get the fuck out of my life.

[JCMach1]

75. I agree... as a progressive I am not about to sit down and shut up...

[bvar22]

95. +1000 I am with JCMach1

I'm not about to sit down and shut up.

[ChiciB1]

80. +100...I'm With bertman... JMHO!! n/t

[earth mom]

61. Why don't you just admit you hate the left and get it over with?

:eyes:

[RBInMaine]

67. Oh that's good. "Hate the left." Now you're channeling Rush Limbaugh-speak. Please read my OP

again and THINK this time about what you just read. There is a difference between mainstream left of center and far left. Far leftists who bash Obama and Dems are outside reality. Please re-read and think this time.

[earth mom]

83. I read your OP and it's full of shit. Huffington is honest & you can't handle the truth.

I think you REALLY need to figure out what side you are on, because historically the left aka democrats do NOT support wars or the exploitation of people by corporations.

There is NOTHING extreme about wanting Peace, Health Care and Jobs with real wages.

There are a ton of DINOS in office in Washington DC who don't give a flying fuck about you, me, or the majority of the population.

The loyalty of those DINOS in Washington DC lies with the corporate bastards who are bleeding us all dry by perpetuating bullshit wars overseas, bailing out banks responsible for the financial crisis this country is in, while at the same time allowing the dismantling of unions and outsourcing of manufacturing in this country to the point that there are 6 people for every damn job!!!

Because of a very corrupt Washington DC, this country has become nothing but an empty shell of it's former self and is fast on it's way to becoming a 3rd world country. It's just a matter of time.

Get a clue.

And while you're at it educate yourself: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10092009/watch.html

[RBInMaine]

85. You're full of shit. Saying "Obama hasn't led..." is pure BS and you and she are outside reality.

[earth mom]

86. You obviously have a very closed & narrow little mind. Educate yourself before it's too late:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10092009/watch.html

[RBInMaine]

94. Please actually read and UNDERSTAND my OP thesis before you go off on me.

[earth mom]

89. Again, There is NOTHING extreme about wanting Peace, Health Care and Jobs with real wages.

Period.

[RBInMaine]

91. Who said I was against peace? Please actually READ the thesis of the OP. It is about the counter-

productiveness of claims such as "Obama is not leading" "Obama is wrong on healthcare..." It is about the REALITY of national governance vs. incessant bitching because the exact policies one wants are not gotten, at least not immediately. Huffington and others who share her views on Obama and what he is doing are outside political reality. Fine. Everyone loves the ideas of peace, healthcare, workers rights... and that is EXACTLY what Obama is working for. But just because it isn't all there now or in the exact form some like Huffington want, that doesn't mean Obama deserves to be bashed. Obama and Dems are working to IMPROVE the conditions of the last eight years. They deserve credit. And not everything is going to be perfect immediately. There is plenty to support. If you have to bash, bash the R's. THAT is the POINT !

[bvar22]

97. There is NO "thesis" in the OP.

There is a theme, and it is that you don't like the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party.

[earth mom]

99. Bingo. nt

[RBInMaine]

101. Silly and ignorant reply.

[earth mom]

104. No, the ignorant one is you. Have you watched that video yet? Probably not.

Talk about willfully ignorant!

I really wonder why you post on this board.

It sounds like all you want is an echo chamber of your own uninformed opinions.

Opinions that are NOT facts, mind you.

Me, I come to DU and other sites to educate myself.

I pride myself on searching for the truth even if it's ugly and unpleasant, because I would rather know the truth, then pretend or delude myself like you are doing.

The sooner people like you wake up to reality the better.

[bvar22]

123. Thanks.

I was going to post my own reply to the Democrat Bashing OP, but you did a nice job.
:toast:

[earth mom]

142. Right back atcha!

And Never Give Up!

:hi:

[earth mom]

98. Watch the video. You'll see that Obama is listening to the banks/corporations who are bleeding

this country dry.

There will be NO progress without cutting banks and corporations off at the throat. NONE.

That's the "REALITY" that you refuse to see.

Open your mind and you might just learn something.

Because right now the powers that be have you totally fooled into believing they are working for you and that they care about you.

Sorry but they could give a rat's ass about you.

[RBInMaine]

107. Wow. You must have ESP that you can see into one's mind. I know all about the "evils" of corporate

America and have seen and read more material on it than you could count in a year. You and I would have large agreement on that substance. But that isn't the point of my OP. The point is being able to distinguish between the perfect and the better and training rhetorical fire on the RePUKES and not our own Democrats and our own President with all we are trying to accomplish right now. Let's make some advances. There is new banking legislation pending as we speak. Perfect? Maybe not. But better than what we had with Bush? Damn right. These are my points, not what many of the problems are. Would you rather have Bush or McSAME in office? Well, there damn well are major differences between Obama and ANY RePUKE. So cool your jets and please address my actual point rather than infering that I have been "brainwashed" by corporate America and other such foolishness. I know ALL ABOUT the bad things corporate America does, I am all for single payer healthcare (BUT, it's not happening now, so let's take Public Option and other reforms and at least have an advance - the art of the possible given conditions and the system), as a union member I am all for workers rights, student aid, public education...and fight for them all the time. You are missing the point of the OP.

BTW Obama is not conspiring with corporations against America.

[earth mom]

108. Again, watch the video and then get back to me. nt

[joeycola]

110. Obama started from a position of weakness on HCReform and it has

been going downhill ever since.

[Armstead]

102. Well, call me crazy and stupid then -- I've been hearing about "eventually" for too many decades

It seems like everytime our side gets power the first thing we do is cede it to some inane murky idea of "reality."

"Reality" translates into "Don't do anything that might upset Corporate America or hard-nose conservatives."

It further translates into "Yes we know what should be done. But we can't do it.....or WON'T do it."

Jeezus...If Republicans and Conservatives were as wishy washy and namby pamby as we are, this would have remained a liberal country for the last 30 years. "Reagan should cut taxes on the rich."...."Gosh he can't do that. We have to move gradually. maybe 30 years from now it'll be time for a tax cut."

No, when you win a solid majority, and the nation is fed up with Republicans and their brand of right-wing corporatism, THIS IS EXACTLY the time to push for real change and reform in a direct way.

[dionysus]

119. you might want to direct that towards the senate. i agree with your general point

;)

[Phx_Dem]

121. I can't stand Arianna. She's Matt Drudge of the left.

And since when is she an authority on anything?

[rebel with a cause]

124. Since she divorced her husband and quit being the darling

of the repubs. Does anyone else remember her being on all the talk shows talking against immigration and any other policy she could attack the left on. I forgave her long ago for this because I thought she had just seen the error of her ways, but when she starts downing Obama the way she does, I have to again question her ideals as a white European immigrant the way I did in the old days. Just saying.....

[Honeycombe8]

138. What's wrong with being a white European immigrant? nt

[rebel with a cause]

144. Nothing unless you go on the tv and say that non white

immigrants should not be allowed to enter the country. Which is what I remember her doing, and I remember thinking she had no right to do so at the time. This was done when her husband was governor of California and I had forgiven her for it when she turned liberal but I did not forget.

I grew up in a neighborhood with mostly white European immigrants and saw nothing wrong with any of them. Most of my US ancestors started out as white European immigrants so I cannot throw stones. I have been friends with immigrants of all ethnic groups and do not put one above the other, or see one as more desirable than the other.

Hope that answers your question.

[Honeycombe8]

145. If you're speaking of hispanics, they are white. Hispanic is an ethnicity.

And I think the difference is this (if she said what you say): color or ethnicity doesn't matter; legal vs. illegal status does.

You're not saying she's a white European illegal immigrant, are you?

[rebel with a cause]

147. I hate to be the one to tell you this but Latinos are not all white.

Latinos range in skin color from white to Black. I know because I have known Latinos of all shades. I also disagree with you on the legal vs. illegal status. When some groups are given a better chance of entering the country on a permanent basis while others are allowed over the border to be migrant workers but then required to return to their own country to live in poverty, then I do not see much difference in legal and illegal status because it is based on class difference.

I am saying that I don't always like Huffington, then and now. I think her stance was hypocritical then and now. I will not change my stance on this and you will not change you mind so I will make this my last post on this subject.

[Honeycombe8]

149. "Hispanic" is an ethnicity. Some hispanics can have Indian blood (like some Mexicans), or other

blood.

Just like "French" or "Italian."

Hispanic is not a race.

[rebel with a cause]

154. Show me where I said Latino was a race.

I am well aware of what an ethnic group is. And if you want to get down to it there is no such thing as 'race' only divisions that mere humans have dared to create and named as races. I refer to these divisions when talking to mere humans but do not accept them.

By the way the word Hispanic is a government word that was devised for the census. A word which was resented by some in the Latino community.

[Honeycombe8]

156. Actually, there are biological differences between the races. It's a scientific

distinction. That's why "races" recognition exists in the first place. Unlike, say, hair color. We all recognize that different hair colors exist, but people are not scientifically divided by that, since there are no biological differences between groups of blondes or brunettes, aside from teh hair color.

The different races have different blood characteristics, different bone structures and weights, different calcium deposits and enamel on teeth, etc. Scientists can tell if a skeleton is Asian or caucasian or Af. American, etc.

[Honeycombe8]

150. Americans felt the same way about illegals when they were (white) Irish, (white) Germans, Chinese,

Italian.

Where you come from or the color of your skin, despite some people insisting it is racial, doesn't seen to have anything to do with it.

It is the illegal status of those entering and the fact that they are putting Americans (of all colors, primarily Af. American, though) out of work.

Legal immigrants have faced hostility, too. In fact, the Irish, Germans, and Italians facing discrimination were, in fact, LEGAL, for the most part.

No, Virginia. It isn't about race at all. It's about jobs and legal entry. This is a country built on the law. You either respect it, or you don't. I'm sure we all do. So illegal immigration is, well, illegal.

[rebel with a cause]

155. Again, where did I mention race.

I did call her a 'white European immigrant' because she takes on the air of being superior. And no Virginia, it isn't always about the color tone of your skin, it is often about your economic class and how those in power perceive you. And how they perceive you often determines how and what your status is in this country. This country was not built on law, it was built on the back of the non-white labor they brought over here often illegally. There were the Indians, the Chinese, and of course the African slave. And don't bother telling me about the European immigrants who came here to work. I know my history and have taken enough ethnic classes that I don't need you to tell me anything. These classes are of course, in addition to my experience of living in several different ethnic groups besides the one of my origin.

[Honeycombe8]

157. Agree to disagree. The law is king here. That is a good thing. Anyone wanting entry

to our country, unlike entry to many other countries, need only APPLY FOR LEGAL ENTRY. Not so with Mexico, BTW, which protects its southern border with the military to keep illegals out. They shoot to kill.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

126. I say, we need all the Left we can get!....It's all good!

[Cha]

146. NOT IF IT's LIES from the so called "left"...then they're

just Wankers.

They can't get their point across without making shit up?

[jonnyblitz]

135. well, it's obvious you would know all about "flocks". nt

[Honeycombe8]

137. You are spot on, RB. Thanks for speaking for many of us. I'm pleased with O so far...

I supported him from early on. I am very pleased with him so far. Not ecstatic with him. I wish he were "stronger." I have some other complaints. But overall, I am pleased. More so than when I voted for Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton (as I recall).

These are unusual times. The worst economic situation in almost a century. Considering that, he's done pretty well.

I have some complaints about the Dems in Congress, though. And I think they'll be losing quite a few seats next year as a result. NOT because of Obama, but because of their own actions (or failure to act).

[RBInMaine]

139. Thanks ! Hey, he's not perfect. But c'mon, one hell of a lot BETTER and he has earned our SUPPORT!

[RBInMaine]

140. 2010 is a long way off so don't fear. We need to get healthcare, and we need to ATTACK R's

like Grayson does. And we need Dems to SUPPORT Dem office holders and Obama ! Frst step, work on all the Dem and progressive referendum campaigns THIS year. Thanks again.

[PretzelWarrior]

143. you said much better than what I did in my "big boy pants" post

what is wrong with all of the mindless bleating from people who say, "say....wait a minute. he really ISN'T our Messiah? Where's my pony? WAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!"

[DatManFromNawlins]

148. Most people can't handle the reality of a representative democracy

Even if you are fully committed to something, you will still have to compromise in order to get what you want, and this means you likely will not get everything you want when you want it. Anyone who believed there would be a swift withdrawal from Iraq of Afghanistan hasn't paid any attention to American history.

Wwhen I was 12 years old, I became the senior patrol leader of a boy scout troop. Not because I was the most popular, but because I was the most competent and fair and everyone knew it. And in order to maintain that power and get the changes I wanted to ensure that we would always have fresh leadership, I enacted term limits and a bunch of other reforms to the charter that overall made the group as a whole many times more successful than it otherwise would have been. As long as you push more than you give, you'll always ultimately move in the right direction.

After 2 terms as senior patrol leader, I was out, and my assistant whom I picked became the senior patrol leader. I didn't become his assistant. Instead, I moved onto another senior position where I could still mentor young scouts. And when it came time once again to choose, I was again elected because I showed the most even handed leadership. And the first thing I did when I regained my position was to move us farther along where I felt we should go.

I knew from the start that Obama was going to seem like a massive failure to the diehard partisans. But he isn't the Democratic President, he's a President who happens to be a Democrat. To maintain power, he doesn't have to turn the rabid Republicans to his side, but by showing that he understands the issues and is fair about policy when he doesn't necessarily have the votes to enact his will full-bore, he will gain more support from those who might otherwise question his leadership. The vast majority of the OP's laundry list would have been achieved by ANY Democratic president with a Democratic majority in Congress. As a matter of fact, I don't see one particular item which would not have been undertaken and achieved regardless of who was in power.

Where I disagree with how Obama has handled his presidency is that he seems to have underestimated the support he felt he had deserved by becoming President. I've said all along that you build no political capital by becoming President. The talk of "mandate" is complete bullshit. Instead, you build it by being the President you need to be. Thus far, he seems to have a laundry list of items which he is trying to mark off instead of focusing on the issues which the country wants him to focus on the most. I'm not saying that healthcare isn't important in this respect. But if the major goals aren't going to be realized for 4 years, then perhaps he should have spent more time focusing on the economy, specifically, getting the real estate and financial markets properly regulated so that the ghosts of the past don't become the ghouls of the future. Had he done that, then he would have a lot more good will and support for his other objectives, like health care.

Political capital is another euphemism for trust, and he hasn't built enough of it yet. I'm not saying he won't, but he needs to learn from his mistakes and get it right in the right order, lest he be relegated to public perception as the empty shirt people try to portray him as. This is chiefly why I feel he made a mistake in accepting the Nobel prize. His detractors have long been trying to claim his illegitimacy, and while there can be no truly illegitimate winner of a prize whose rules have been followed and voted upon, he has given actual ammunition to his detractors. That aside, he can still make it right if his donations go towards the programs being run by Nobel nominees who are doing the most good.

Because then nobody will be able to say that no good came of his winning that prize.

[JNelson6563]

151. She's just trying to make a buck,

Her views change when convenient. Long ago and far away she stood next to her Rethug hubby and denounced immigrants with her thick Greek accent.

Yeah, I don't pay much attention to her. She sticks her finger in the political wind and chooses the view that looks best on her that day. Forget her and her ilk.

Julie

[LWolf]

152. You can be as sick as you like.

Complaining about the "ultra left" on a site self-described as "one of the premier left-wing websites on the Internet, publishing original content six days a week, and hosting one of the Web's most active left-wing discussion boards" seems a little silly.