Right on cue, here's Kucinich

[ProSense]

We compromised on single payer by backing a public option, and now we are being asked to compromise the public option with negotiated rates. In conference, we will likely be asked to compromise negotiated rates with a trigger. In each and every step of the health care debate, the insurance companies have won. If they get hundreds of billions of dollars in new taxpayer subsidies, they get to raise their premiums, and increase their co pays and deductibles, while the public is forced to pay for private insurance, then the insurance companies win big.

If this is the best we can do, then it is time to ask ourselves whether the two-party system is truly capable of representing the American people or whether the system has been so compromised by special interests that we can’t even protect the health of our own people. This is a moment of truth for the Democratic Party. Will we stand for the people or the insurance companies?

link

Is he threatening to start a third party? How many members of Congress has he convinced to support a public option? Where has he been since his last diary?

[butterfly77]

1. I could see yesterday that he was just waiting for today..

his speech has been prepared for months.

[rudy23]

2. The "cue" is the major disappointment we were all expecting from Obama and Congress.

It's not like he's just ranting out of nowhere. Obama pressured the house to strip the single-payer amendment from the bill---that doesn't upset you?

[Eric J in MN]

9. Link re Obama? NT

NT

[tekisui]

103. He is the leader of the party. Did you not know that?

[rudy23]

111. Here's your link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6880388


"President Obama told the committee chairman, George Miller, to oppose Kucinich's amendment, and he did so, leading off the voting with a resounding "No."

[hileeopnyn8d]

117. That isn't proof.

That's someone saying that he said that, without any facts to back them up.

[DJ13]

3. Is he threatening to start a third party?

Is there some place to sign up?

[hfojvt]

5. well if you eliminate the middleperson

you can sign up here http://www.gop.com/

[ProSense]

6. E-mail him. You also have a choice in the Green Party. What's stopping you? n/t

[DJ13]

13. Democrats remind me of abused spouses

Always making excuses that the louse still loves us no matter how mistreated we are.

[rudy23]

15. It makes it even harder to leave when the louse is paying all the bills.

If you know what I'm saying.

[DJ13]

17. True that!

Maybe what we need is a battered liberals shelter?

[hfojvt]

4. well until he started talking about 3rd parties

I think he was right on.

More and more it is just looking like a win for the insurance companies, although Krugmas was writing that people in Massachusetts are happy with RomneyCare.

[rudy23]

7. I say replace talk of 3rd parties with Campaign Finance Reform, and he's spot on.

This Democratic Party does not share yours or my ideals. There's no "moderate" about it. Corporatism stands in direct contrast to our platform, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

[ProSense]

8. He should have been fighting to preserve a strong public option instead of posting infrequent

diaries to grandstand.

[Windy]

10. absolutely! I'm tired of DK frankly. nt

[rudy23]

11. Putting in the single payer amendment and raising the negotiating bar wasn't enough for you?

He's come out in the media for a strong public option plenty of times. From everything I've read, he's done plenty in Congress to fight for the PO. We're only judging him by the number of diaries he posts?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

14. Is it really doing anything if your actions are completely ignored?

Only if you consider "grandstanding" to be doing something. It did nothing whatsoever to "raise the bar" - and this ridiculous notion that starting at single payer would do anything other than end the negotiation altogether is, frankly, misguided at best.

[Ikonoklast]

54. But all those eloquent speeches he made from the well, and all

those other Democrats and Republicans he buttonhooked in the hallways, getting a concensus from his fellow Congressmen and women, and...


Oh, wait, he just used a peashooter from the cheap seats.

[rudy23]

57. Yeah, he didn't twist Progressive's arms like Obama and Rahm--those guys got things done.

He's just a piddly little representative, with an incredible track record of tirelessly working for his constituents. How Democratic of you.

[Ikonoklast]

58. That's right, you got nuthin'.

Dennis doesn't work well with others, and is not a concensus builder.

Hate to tell you this, but that is exactly how legislation gets written and passed in this country, for good or ill.

And if Progressives didn't get all they wanted in this bill, I have some news for you, neither did the Blue Dogs.

[rudy23]

60. Yeah, but who were Obama and Rahm working well with? Blue Dogs or Progressives?

Let's see what kind of legislation gets passed before you go lecturing Kucinich supporters about the "realities" of politics.

[Ikonoklast]

68. But DK's supporters have already made up their minds that they hate it.

They'd rather starve than have half a loaf of bread.

Single Payer is the Holy Grail. I believe that. I happen to agree with DK about single payer.


I also believe that attaining that goal will take many steps, and time. It isn't going to happen overnight.

These are the first steps toward that goal.

[rudy23]

69. Mandates w/o an accesible public option is not "half a loaf." It's like being clubbed with a loaf

of very stale bread.

Not the best analogy in the world, but it was better than yours.

[Ikonoklast]

71. Then you'd rather nothing was done? Even stale bread is edible.

I hate to tell you this, but seldom if ever is a legislative undertaking this large ever done in one fell swoop.

Even Medicare, when first passed, was a fairly feeble program. Look at it now.

This reform is just the start to build on.

[rudy23]

72. Depends on how stale the bread is.

It coulda been a whole lot fresher if Rahm and Obama weren't actively working to harden the bread (that we will be clubbed with).

[bvar22]

84. Medicare....fairly feeble???

Within one year, 93% of ALL America's Seniors were enrolled.

[quakerboy]

86. But that loaf has to stretch a ways

If I need to eat for 6 months, and my choices are one loaf of stale bread VS nothing, Either way I am going to starve to death, but I will probably take something over nothing.

But if my choices are pay $500 bucks for a stale loaf of bread, or hold my money and hope that at some point another chance comes along, I am going to go with the latter.

[Armstead]

12. Maybe if you'd read his past proposals for single payer you might concede he has a point

I have read his proposals for single payer which included detailed cost-benefit analysis.

It makes emminent sense....And it's not just an ideological thing. It would reduce costs and make sure everyone is covered at reasonable prices.

He's pissed at the democrats for the same reason so many of us are pissed. The party leadership didn;t even bother offering that as an option, and they can't even get solidly behind a lame public option compromise.

[AndyA]

16. "COMPROMISED BY SPECIAL INTERESTS"

That's it in four words.

What did we expect? We have people like Max Baucus, who is owned by the health care insurance industry, chairing the committee looking into health care reform. That was mistake #1. Baucus was compromised before he walked in and sat down.

This kind of shit should absolutely not be permitted to happen. But that would expose the real problem: WHERE DO YOU FIND A MEMBER OF CONGRESS WHO ISN'T COMPROMISED?

If all members of Congress were required to recuse themselves (and why aren't they?) when there's a conflict of interest, how would ANYTHING ever get done? The whole system needs an overhaul, from the top all the way down. The only thing getting represented by our elected representatives is their own interests. Period.

And then they tell us how hard they've worked for us, and could you please donate... :puke:

Note to members of Congress when you want campaign donations from the American people: Sorry, the money budgeted for campaign donations has gone to the insurance companies to pay the MANDATORY health care that you forced on us. So there won't be any forthcoming."

[joeycola]

27. The WH compromised from the beginning and put us in a weak bargaining

position by not allowing single payer advocates a place at the table.

[HamdenRice]

18. Some day, I hope Kucinich actually accomplishes something

other than issuing a press release or talking.

Then I could take more seriously his criticism of stuff that actually gets done.

[karynnj]

19. Well let's figure out the size of his party - It might be smaller than the Green party

I assume that he would get 0 of the Republicans and he was below double digits in both 2004 and 2008.

[vaberella]

22. Of course it will be and they'll never agree to shit.

What I've noticed about these progressive purists is that they don't know compromise and don't understand the importance of prioritizaton. Actually they think everything will just go if they can do this or that like waving a wand. When they create their third party---ie like the socialists in this nation. They'll realize that nothing they do will be effective because they can't compromise and so they'll never pass anything and be an ineffectual party. I'm an independent who votes Dem for a reason.

[karynnj]

56. But, as they disagree, they can splinter into even smaller groups

I agree with you, you need something that more than a majority agree to. I do think the republicans are overusing the filibuster and that may come back to haunt them - or at least I hope it will. I would image Maine will not be happy with their 2 Senators voting against healthcare.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

89. He was out polled by Stephen Colbert

In Colbert's "Hail to the Cheese" presidential run.

I voted Kucinich in the primary as a means to show the other candidates that I wanted liberal policies. But I had no illusions that he was going to win.

[jenmito]

20. He's the Sarah Palin of the Dems. He could ruin our chance of remaining in the majority in '10. n/t

[mvd]

23. I couldn't disagree more

I love Dennis. Sometimes I'm more pragmatic than he is, but he represents my views and I think he makes some good points that this bill is not where we need to be. And it's been posted several times at DU that he has accomplished plenty given what we have. Unlike him, I think it's a first step, though.

I think we can support both the President and Dennis.

[jenmito]

29. I love Dennis's idealism, but if he's doubting the two-party system, that tells ME that he

is thinking of running as a 3rd party candidate which would divide us Dems. just the way the Repubs. are being divided (and possibly conquered) by the likes of Palin.

[mvd]

31. I don't think he will

To me he's just railing against the special interests.

[jenmito]

36. His words make me think he WILL. And if he DOES, he will split our party

just like Palin and her ilk are splitting the Repubs.

[mvd]

37. I just don't see it that way

I get a different vibe from him. I don't think he's out to break up the party.

[jenmito]

39. What do YOU get out of this statement?:

"If this is the best we can do, then it is time to ask ourselves whether the two-party system is truly capable of representing the American people..."

[mvd]

40. I get..

that he wonders if the Democratic Party will stand with the people over the insurance companies. That's all. I get no feeling he's running third party.

[jenmito]

45. Well, I guess we'll see. n/t

[tekisui]

113. The duopoly represent themselves, not the American People.

It is true.

[jenmito]

116. Do you think he wants to start a third party? n/t

[tekisui]

119. I think he wants to tell an uncomfortable truth.

I don't think he wants to start a third party. I do think that he wants to get the attention of the leadership and the conservadems corrupting the party.

[Armstead]

99. Perhaps if the Dems paid more attention to progressives it wouldn't be an issue

[Lydia Leftcoast]

130. What's so sacred about the two-party system?

It's not in the Constitution.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jenmito]

33. It's not that. It's his questioning of the two-party system. But if it makes you feel better to

call me (and others who agree with me) "idiots," go for it. :eyes:

[AllentownJake]

38. Oh no

People are questioning the system because nothing is getting done.

Things get done, people stop questioning the system.

[zulchzulu]

81. I generally agree with Kucinich on principle, but not when it gets down to political reality

Kucinich says good things but rarely has the political power or leadership skills to get what he would like to get passed to actually pass.

[Forkboy]

120. Utter nonsense, and I'm surprised you even buy that yourself.

[dflprincess]

123. Kucnich is not a threat to keeping the majority;

Democrats who sell the voters out to their corporate donors are.

[vaberella]

21. Prosense let him. Some on DU were suggesting it I kept thinking let them--just like teabaggers.

You know why? Because teabaggers are doing the same fuckin' thing. Then we'll NEVER get anything done in Congress. Let them think that with another party they'll get things done. It will get worst and they'll be waiting generations for anything to happen.

[rudy23]

25. I've been talking about the orchestrated, DLC talking points against Kucinich since July.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6022082

Why else would people start coming in out of nowhere, LOOOONG after the primaries and start viciously bashing Dennis Kucinich on a liberal message board?

Right on cue, every time Dennis has made our case in the healthcare debate, certain people have gone down the list of nasty names to call Dennis Kucinich. They're trying, but we're a tough crowd.

[Jennicut]

35. Eh, just because someone does not agree with your does not mean they work for whatever

political group you think they work for.
Dennis is okay. He means well.
He is neither my most favorite Dem nor most hated.

[rudy23]

46. Yeah, but when a bunch of people use the same nasty terms, and it's similarly over the top

you can kinda tell.

What else prompts a bunch of people to show their HATE for Dennis on DU? Not just disagreement, or "he's a little nutty for my tastes." I'm talking about 20-30 people coming out of nowhere to parrot some sudden OUTRAGE against DU's most beloved liberal politician---and all using the same terminology.

The only thing I could think that would prompt something like that was the DLC's foresight that during this healthcare debate, Dennis would be a thorn in their side as they tried to give away single payer, then a robust public option.

Right on cue, as soon as he posts a diary on Kos about how the Democrats are selling us out, we see the talking points again. Right on cue.

[Jennicut]

50. Well, some here don't like him. Some here don't like Obama.

There is no conspiracy, unless you live like Alex Jones and then everything is a conspiracy.

[rudy23]

52. Obama is president. Give me one good reason why people would start to HATE Kuch in July.

I can only think of one reason, and one group who would HATE him.

The reason--he's the strongest progressive voice on healthcare reform.
The group--the insurance industry and those who take money from them (esp. Blue Dogs/DLC)

Your Alex Jones slam is a strawman & an ad hominem typical of those who we've seen on here since the summer slamming progressives and progressive values.

[Jennicut]

65. I never slammed Kucinich. I said I like him.

I like Obama too. I guess I am not polarizing enough? I think some overreact to Kucinich. He has always been very, very liberal. I see nothing different in any of his actions lately. He is who he is. Some don't like him, I think his intentions are good.
I just don't like conspiracies being thrown out against some Duers who have been here way longer then me. Not everyone has to like the same politician (or anything else) you do.

[joeycola]

26. Right on cue and spot on (Kucinich)

[mvd]

28. I don't get the Dennis bashing

He's a Democrat, too, and I don't see this as a third party threat. He's right that the special interests have way too much power. Without people like Dennis, I feel we'd take our eye off the goal.

[ProSense]

32. Pointing out the obvious. His last public statement about reform was that a public option is doomed.

Now that it's in the bill, he declares the two-party system dead. Kucinich is a master grandstander.

[mvd]

34. Disagreed and you misinterpreted him

Look, I am NOT going to get on the criticize Dennis bandwagon.

[ProSense]

41. No, I didn't. He did declare the public option doomed and now,

while he frames it as, "is this the best we can do," to declare the two-party system ineffective, he doesn't acknowledge the reality that all the members of Congress are elected by the constituents in their state. What is he proposing? And, again, what has he done in his own state to ensure that public option supporters pressure their elected officials?

[mvd]

42. He was talking about the public option..

as something really meaningful. And he's still right that even in the House plan, it isn't open to all and negotiated at Medicare rates. And the Party does need to represent the people's interests more. We are so far apart that we just are not going to agree, period.

[mvd]

43. And with that, I'm just going to agree to disagree

Will not get in a back and forth on interpretation and philosophy.

[joeycola]

47. a robust public option is indeed dead.

[freddie mertz]

55. Why bash Dennis when it is the Blue Dogs who got us into this?

THEY ARE THE TRAITORS, not Dennis.

[ProSense]

63. Right, the blue dogs got us into this so how

is it the fault of all the of all the other Democrats who have been fighting hard for a robust public option? Kucinich proclaimed a public option dead, and now that it's in the bill he is supposed to get a pass for this bullshit statement condemning the entire Democratic Party?

[freddie mertz]

77. Democratic LEADERSHIP has also failed.

We have weakness at the top, which makes it easy for the Blue Dog Dem-Pukes to force their will on the majority.

The old coalition, the principles that used to be foundation of the party, have been betrayed by corporate bribery.

We have no leaders, just a few decent individual politicians, like Dennis.

[ProSense]

88. Kucinich isn't a leader?

You're right.

[freddie mertz]

134. You know what I meant.

Leadership as in the leadership positions in the House and Senate.

Sheesh.

[paulk]

30. well, even a broken clock is right twice a day

and he is right - the "reform" we're going to get is heavily weighted to the benefit of the insurance industry.

Dennis's problem is that he believes the Democratic Party still serves the "people" as opposed to it's donors.

Foolish Dennis.

[frylock]

44. knu

[question everything]

48. yawn (nt)

[ej510]

49. Dennis Kucinich is right this bill is a piece of shit.

[ProSense]

51. No, he's wrong. Medicare rates aside, the

bill is very impressive. Facts: here, here and here.

[dflprincess]

125. I especially like the part where most of us will be forced to continue to send money

to the same crooks that have been robbing us blind for years. The $5,000 in annual out of pockets (for expenses that apply to the deductible) is also exciting, not to mention the extra money we get to pay for uncovered incidentals like dental and vision.

I was really afraid the status quo would be upset by reform. It's a relief to know that for most people, nothing will change. :sarcasm:

[pnwmom]

62. No, it isn't. And Medicare rates aren't the panacea many people think.

For one thing, in many parts of the country doctors are refusing Medicare patients because the rates are too low. What good will it do to have a public option if doctors refuse to accept patients who are on it?

[Scruffy1]

53. Dennis and the Demo-rats

It's just amazing too me that the Democratic party "loyalist" are so ready to dump on Dennis with their DLC talking points. It's a fair question and one I've asked myself for over 40 years, and I still don't know the answer. This is why the Democratic Party can swing so far to the right, because they know that their base despises the Republican Party so much that they will their nose and vote for their sell out candidates anyhow. We have no where else to go. Some think that they corporate puppet masters keep a few like Dennis around to blow off steam and to show off how "liberal" they are. Any check of Mr. Kucinich's house record would show that he has been very effective in Representing his district and a tireless worker for the American people. By not co-opting himself with big money of course he has eliminated any chance at national office, but has used his prominence for all it is worth. Anyone who has met him and heard him speak could not doubt his sincerity.
Personally I have made the choice to send no more money to any Democrat, except my own congressman Keith Ellison, and that has more to do with his deep community involvement then his role in Congress.
Hard to turn your back on a friend you've cried with. The Democratic Party has sold us out from the top down. I knew we were in big trouble when Obama picked Geithner, Bernanke, Rahm Immanual and refused to prosecute criminals from the previous administration under the guise of too much to do. If you tuned on C-Span yesterday, you would have seen a democratic hearing on NFL injuries so their obviously too busy to do anything useful except handover more dough to defense contractors, insurance companies, and banksters.

[SIMPLYB1980]

59. A lot of us have known this about DK for a long time.

The man is a grand stander who isn't really interested in progress.

[rudy23]

61. Well DU has officially jumped the shark. n/t

[SIMPLYB1980]

64. I've talked shit about DK here for a long time.

He jumped the shark long ago and puts on performances daily. Just bread and circuses for those who are perpetually bitter.

[rudy23]

66. I've talked shit about you talking shit about DK since July---when it came out of nowhere.

Again---what started in July that would predicate these NASTY, over the top comments from 20 or 30 of the same posters, using the same terminology ALL OF A SUDDEN?

[SIMPLYB1980]

73. I've been doing it for a lot longer than July.

I started doing it in 2006 when I started posting on DU. I did it all during the primary's where he pitched hissy fit after hissy fit because he couldn't get anyone to vote to keep him in the race. Blamed it all on the media for keeping him down. :rofl: :popcorn:

[spoony]

82. It isn't surprising you can't relate to him

He doesn't sit around jacking off to war movies and articles about drone bombings.

[SIMPLYB1980]

83. LOL!

[frylock]

90. i had to double check to ensure that i didn't post this..

fucking spot on.

[AllentownJake]

92. +1

[GrilledCheeses]

96. +2 nt

[tekisui]

114. lol!

:rofl:

[Rosa Luxemburg]

67. I still think one day we will get a single payer but we have to start somewhere

look what we are fighting. This is a big, long job!

[Bluenorthwest]

70. Dennis is of course, correct

[winyanstaz]

74. Its sad to see the abuse hurled at one of the few people standing up for all the people....

Especially stupid to expect one man to do it all and then get mad at him when he can't do it alone too.

[joeycola]

76. The OP mocks a good Rep and cause.

[freddie mertz]

78. The OP is a shameful effort to blame one of the good guys

For something that the Blue dogs, the House and Senate Leadership, and the White House have brought us to.

Dennis is one of the few who has stood up for principles.

[pecwae]

93. SSDD

with regard to DK bashing. I've never seen such hatred for a progressive on a supposedly Left leaning site.

[Jakes Progress]

129. Well, see. You can be for the corporations.

You can be for everything Obama does. Or you can be for the people.

What do you know. It does sound like three parties.

[jefferson_dem]

75. Kooch is our Hoffman

Has he been on FauxNews yet to explain his outrage?

Tool.

[zulchzulu]

79. A "left" Third Party would guarantee the Republicans winning every time

Granted, there are Third Party choices in elections, but all you have to do is look at the 2000 Election where people voted for Nader. That worked out real well, didn't it...

:crazy:

[spoony]

80. I love how absolutely shit-your-pants scared some of you are of DK

Oh no he's going to run as a third party! It'll cost us the election, that bastard!

Oh, wait, wasn't the DK-bashing conventional wisdom here that no one votes for him anyway and that his fringe followers couldn't affect anything? Which is it, now?

Edit: And your names are, not surprisingly, the same ones that pop up any time someone is critical of Obama, saying that "bashing" a Dem is for RW freepers, etc. Bloody hypocrites!

[frylock]

98. word up..

these same people that believe that the opinions of progressives aren't worth a damn will be the same people crying about how it's our fault that their corporatist candidate didn't win. either we make a difference or we don't, but they should make up their damn minds one way or the other.

[bvar22]

85. Yep. There goes Dennis, right on cue....

..STANDING UP for Americans who Work for a Living against the Corporate Interests that OWN Congress and the White House.

What an asshole!!!

Hahahahahahaha!

[dana_b]

101. yeah

what a jerk.

He's been saying this stuff about the P.O. and more importantly single payer for AGES! It doesn't help that they took out his amendment giving states the opportunity to have SP if they want it.

He's dead right about the Dems.

[harun]

87. DK is the best Dem out there!

[brentspeak]

91. I can see why suckups for the insurance companies might not like Kucinich

That I understand.

[Phx_Dem]

94. He's not much better than Lieberhole.

Same shit for a different reason. If they don't get exactly what they want, blow the whole thing up so no one gets anything. Instead of working together to get the best we can based on the fact that we are a widely-represented party consisting of conversatives, moderates, liberals, progressives, they insist on their way or the highway The two groups on either end of that list are the spoilers and pains in our party's ass who, for some reason, always insist on calling the shots for the rest of us as if they speak for all of us. They don't.

[AllentownJake]

95. I'm sorry

what legislation in the house has he blocked?

[frylock]

97. right. it's the milquetoast pud-whacking centrists that speak for us all

you just keep on shitting on the progressives, because you'll be kissing our asses in 2012 when you need us again.

[dana_b]

102. the question is

will we be there then?
I know a lot of people on this board will say "who cares? Go!". Works for me.

[frylock]

106. i have my criteria..

and if they haven't made headway on prosecuting cheneyco, then they will not receive my vote.

[Sebastian Doyle]

108. He's the polar opposite of that fucking douchebag

Dennis represents the PEOPLE. Lieberdouche represents the corporate criminals.

[tekisui]

115. Yes! We need two compromised conservative parties. Awesome!

[Clio the Leo]

100. So he HAD the votes to pass single payer and someone stopped him?

whatever.

[joeycola]

104. Since the WH and Dems never tried we will never know.

[Clio the Leo]

105. well then you have to congratulate the President and leadership....

.... for managing to turn the ENTIRE Democratic caucus around and away from pushing for single-payer ... IF that was the case. ;)

[joeycola]

132. The WH shut out the SP advocates from the start and many in

congress went along with it. So, they started from a weak bargaining place and it has done downhill ever since.

[timzi]

107. Thanks for the Post

DK as usual is right on. I just can't figure out what motivates the unrec twits.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

109. And watch him vote for it...

[SIMPLYB1980]

110. Yep.

Just like he did with Afghanistan.

[tekisui]

112. A third party isn't nationally viable. The two big parties are too wealthy.

They have a duopoly on the political system.

[Auggie]

118. I agree with the Congressman

[kath]

121. What insurance company does ProSense work for again??

[ProSense]

122. The same one

that Howard Dean, Richard Trumka and Gerald McEntee work for: that is the one conspired in the minds of those whose heads are exploding because health care reform is becoming a reality.

[Cha]

127. "Insurance company"? Really?

[Forkboy]

124. Upset, Prosense?

[Cha]

126. Howard Dean thinks it's a "Good Start" and

he's "Very Pleased" with this "Real Reform".

He's adamant about getting enrollment before 2010 so Americans will see the repubs have been lying.

[bunnysoft]

128. Disagreeing with a bill our party created=threatening to start a third party

We have some novel theories around here.

[Vidar]

131. Have to agree with Dennis.

[undeterred]

133. The truth irritates you?

Thank God we have at least one Democrat who has enough integrity to speak the truth.