Dean said.....Unbelievable, Simply Unbelievable

[deminflorida]

That George Bush in his soul is a Moderate, and that he'd be elected to two terms....

On most children of unwed mothers ending up on welfare, Dean said that is crap, absolute crap!

Forget the comments on Iowa, the real meat is in the rest of the video!

Unbelievable

www.msnbc.com

The Dean Tapes....

[slinkerwink]

1. this was when Bush was GOVERNOR and before he STOLE the election

to many Texans and people that knew about Bush at the time, he was a FUCKING MODERATE!

[MIMStigator]

8. It says it was after the 2000 election

In an appearance after the 2000 presidential election, Dean made this comment about his former fellow governor, George W. Bush. “George Bush, I believe, is in his soul a moderate.”

[BootinUp]

9. Not according to Molly Ivins n/t

[eileen_d]

14. What is a "fucking moderate" anyway?

Do they get girls "sort of" pregnant?

[JohnKleeb]

23. moderates sign 152 death warrants in 6 years?

He always called himself conservative, "compassionate conservatism" remember that travesty, now he did give the appearance of a moderate but he was no moderate. I read some of Ivins' one book, I forget what, said something like the only issue he was like moderate on was education.

[Buffler]

94. In Texas

the Gov. does not have the ability to commute death sentences. The only thing the Gov. can do is stay an execution for 30 days, one time. Which I believe he did a whopping 1 time. Though I believe Ann Richards also only did it once.

[Clark Campaigner]

24. Dean obviously doesn't think Bush stole the election

[slinkerwink]

31. it was in December of 2000!!!!!!!

comprende?

[Clark Campaigner]

39. yes, and the election was stolen in November of 2000

The SCOTUS ruled on Bush v. Gore Dec 12, 2000.
Earlier in the same month that Dean said Bush would be elected twice.

comprende?

[Eric J in MN]

68. In December 2000, there wasn't much information yet on the purge

In December 2000, there wasn't much information yet on the purge of 60,000 mostly legal, mostly black voters from the rolls.

[lurk_no_more]

84. Dean said Bush would be elected twice?

elected twice?.....Once would've been nice before thinking twice!

Take this statement along with "America may not always have the strongest military" I seriously doubt that dean should be President, much less will be.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Clark Campaigner]

87. that's right, Dean said Bush would be "re-elected" in 2004!

It's the shocking truth, and sort of deflates all of his angry talk about Bush and Florida 2000.

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. He said it in DECEMBER 2000.

The election was...in NOVEMBER 2000. He ALSO said that people shouldn't think that Bush is a 1 term president. How's that for hypocrisy?

[lurk_no_more]

96. These statements of bush's (re?) election

make me wonder since dean has been contemplating a Presidential run for how long now? Something in dean's statements really bother me.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[deminflorida]

26. Slinkerwink....

I respect you allot and you know that, and I respect your support for your candidate.....

but if this kind of shit right here is repeated, well sorry but I'll continue:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=86201

[cthrumatrix]

60. 3 yrs ago...it's not like he voted repug --- Like the general has !!!!!!!

[DemBones DemBones]

73. Clark admits he's voted both GOP and Dem, but

that's not a crime. Lots of voters switch parties at some point, or simply vote for the other party sometimes.

If Clark had been holding office as a Democrat all his life, that would be a strange claim to make, but he's just entered politics. His entry into the political world has been a lot like Eisenhower's, which is not surprising since military personnel are supposed to be nonpartisan.

There is also no guarantee that Dean, or anyone else, has never voted Republican. Even if a candidate claims to have always voted Democratic, there's no way to check on the claim.

This criticism of Clark is a weak one.

[Maddy McCall]

2. Why is it shocking that he would call someone on a lie about single

mothers? He was right.

[Jerseycoa]

6. Yes

I applaud him for that.

[Jerseycoa]

3. I saw it

I say the meat is Iowa. Dee-lish

[AP]

4. When Bush got elected I thought the WORST thing that could happen is that

he'd be moderate. I had no doubt in my mind that he was not a moderate at heart. But I thought he'd present the face of moderate, and use that to do all the things under the surface that would deeply entrench the Republican Party.

I've been astounded by how blatant they've been in exposing what's in their hearts.

[BootinUp]

Notice the shift though recently?

Americans have a short memory when it comes to politics. Prescription Drugs anyone?

[AP]

22. All this mars/moon mission shit is to make Bush seem like JFK.

They're going to spend all year trying to make people forget the shit they pulled in years 1-3.

[DemBones DemBones]

74. To seem like JFK, AND to bankrupt the Treasury

with expanded military and space expenditures. More and more, it seems obvious they want to "grow the deficit" by giving government money (which Bush kept saying in his 2000 campaign was OUR money) to their cronies in the defense and space industries. This will make it necessary to keep cutting funds for public education (educated workers have to be paid too much), Social Security, Medicare, etc. (people should take care of themselves), etc. It's also about a military domination of space and other planets. The US is going to hell in a handbasket with this crew.

Tony Blankley (editor of Moonie-owned Washington Times) is on Washington Journal right now being happy about Bush's new ideas for a moon program, etc. He doesn't like Bush's plan re: illegal immigrants, though.

[madfloridian]

5. When he worked with Bush as a governor, he always said that.

He has learned like the rest of us, Bush is no moderate.

Have you posted something nice about your candidate tonight?

[MIMStigator]

11. No he said it AFTER the 2000 election says the article

In an appearance after the 2000 presidential election, Dean made this comment about his former fellow governor, George W. Bush. “George Bush, I believe, is in his soul a moderate.”

[dsc]

19. but before he governed

it was December.

[slinkerwink]

33. Bush took OFFICE in JANUARY 2000......

and this was before we know how fucking radical his administration would get.

[Eric J in MN]

66. No, Bush took office in January 2001 (nt)

nt

[deminflorida]

18. Well I haven't posted anything like this, that's for sure....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=86201

Keep it up and so will I......

[whirlygigspin]

7. I've seen every episode of the Editors

and I hope you get a chance to see them too, the more they show em'
the better for Dean.

[maxanne]

10. unwed mothers

On most children of unwed mothers ending up on welfare, Dean said that is crap, absolute crap!


He's right - so what's the problem?

[madfloridian]

38. He looked at the guy and said "unmitigated crap!" I cheered.

Because it was crappy what the guy said and Dean called him on it. Loved it. He was so right. Righteous anger.

[HFishbine]

61. What's wrong with it? He said the "C" word.

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you. What a potty mouth.

[deminflorida]

86. Nope I was wrong on this one....

I fell for the way it was being spun, (i.e. like Dean saying no to some kind of benefit)...your right it was an insult to single Moms and Dean was right...

[quinnox]

12. I had a different take

The Iowa stuff is the only thing that will hurt him, the rest wasn't that noteworthy. But the Iowa caucus insults could be a huge deal, we will have to see what happens.

[maxanne]

17. except

he wasn't talking about Iowa specifically.

[adamrsilva]

13. I thought Bush was a moderate too. An idiot, but a moderate.

In December of 2000, before Bush even took office. None of us had any idea what kind of radical he'd become, nor that it'd be possible that he could get away with it under the guise of 9/11. I see nothing damaging in this statement, in the context. Of course, all of Dean's statements are taken out of context so...

[Rowdyboy]

29. Oh, no, you're wrong...

Some of us knew what was coming with Bush. Some of us followed the family and watched his record in Texas and pretty much tried to get the message out. However, people kept saying, that there was no difference in Bush and Gore-like that was serious. And other people believed it.

But, yes, some of us did know what was coming. I nearly lost several friends trying to warn them. I guess they've learned now.

[slinkerwink]

35. that was the minority---the majority believed Bush was a moderate

and we've ALL learned now what a fucking radical neoconservative Bush is!

[Rowdyboy]

36. Then the majority was far more stupid than I ever thought

Because I saw through that piece of crap from day one. If you (the generic you, not you personally) thought Bush was a "moderate" after 6 years as governor of Texas, you weren't paying any attention to his record. His entire career has been one of division, as has that of his father. He always talked the talk of moderation, but he NEVER walked the walk.

[Maddy McCall]

41. I saw it too...and you and I are just stupid mississippians, huh.

[stopbush]

42. You know, if your candidate (Clark) gets the nomination, I'll

support him just like I would any other Dem. OK, not Lieberman.

That said, it strikes me as odd that you're jumping on the bash Dean wagon over these tapes. This is all part of the anti-Dean onslaught that the RW has launched to stop a candidate that scares the crap out of them. If they can make it look like a Dem-inspired feeding frenzy, all the better.

The bits I saw on TV tonight were not at all damning. They show Howard Dean staking out some pretty traditional Dem positions. I especially liked when he called that guy on his unwed mother crap.

And if Dean was cutting bush some slack a few DAYS after the SCOTUS selection, so what? Al Gore himself was out calling for the country to unite behind bush. Sure, I - like you - saw through the bush piece of crap from day one as well, but what would you have liked Dean to have said? "I disagree with Al Gore, Bush just stole the election and he should rot in hell?" Ain't gonna happen.

But enough about Dean. What was your guy doing during this time? Neither Clark nor Dean was running for prez in Dec 2000. Was Clark denouncing bush for the piece of crap he was and is? If memory serves correctly, he was a registered repug at the time (when did Clark finally announce that he was a Dem anyway?). At least Dean woke up and saw bush for what he really was shortly thereafter and started speaking out against him and his policies. Again, check my memory, but wasn't Clark running around raising money for repugs during that time and well into bush's reign of error? Wasn't Clark giving speeches for repugs? Wasn't Clark by his own admission the one who was sitting by the phone waiting for the repugs to call him (though they never did)?

Maybe the media will make those tapes available next week.

In the interest of fairness, you really should apply the same litmus tests to Clark as you're applying to Dean.

[Rowdyboy]

59. I haven't jumped on any anti-Dean bandwagon

But JChild and I both had enough to see through the "George Bush is a moderate" BS. That didn't take much savvy at all.

[cally]

85. Clark NEVER registered, at all

Few in Arkansas register a party. Clark was an independent who voted Democratic in the last three Presidential elections. After leaving the Army, he made a portion of his living at speaking engagements. He helped campaign for Democrtatic candidates and did a favor for a Republican friend and spoke to a fundraiser. There he didn't trash this maladministration, but basically said that he respects some of his advisors.

For the past four months, many supporters of other candidates have repeated over and over that Clark is a Republican. I've seen so many folks in this thread righteously state that they would never vote for a candidate that ever said anything positive about the Bushistas.

I find the hypocrisy on this thread astounding by many of you. Dean said that Bush is a moderate after seeing what Bush did in Texas? After the shenanigans in Florida? I had heard what went on there by that time, I would guess someone as well connected as Dean had heard much more.

Give it a rest. Most politicians to my dismay didn't attack Bush from the get go. Dean included. Democrats abandoned Gore.

[jfiling]

37. ?

A "radical neoconservative" is a contradiction. BTW, I'd love to know your definition of "neoconservative", because from what I've seen, Bush is no kind of conservative at all. He's a panderer, but not just to conservatives. Conservatives don't toy with illegal immigrant amnesty or expand the welfare state. They also tend to be fiscally conservative, which is half of what I want in a president, along with a social liberal.

[QC]

63. I never thought Bush was a moderate.

Anyone who did could not possibly have known anything about his actions in Texas.

[Eric J in MN]

71. which actions in Texas? (nt)

nt

[Rowdyboy]

88. How about bankrupting the state through giveaway

tax cuts to the very wealthy, how about destruction of the states social service network (health dept, employment service, welfare dept), how about appointments of rightwing cronies to serve as agency heads, run the courts and manage state government, how about ignoring environmental laws and letting polluters slide? I don't live in Texas but I can read newspapers.

Try asking a Texan if you want the rest of the story. He has devastated the state, both financially, legally, and environmentally.

[Cocoa]

15. of all the places to see that MSNBC garbage promoted

DU?

We should be laughing our asses of and firing off angry letters.

Promoting this crap? Here?

[dsc]

16. What is simply unbelievable is you

Dean actually said we shouldn't dismiss the idea Bush would be reelected.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

20. If you miss the tapes, read this article...

These tapes may be dynamite for Dean, and I mean that in a good way. Of course Drudge and the other campaigns will take stuff out of context and ignore the best parts, but these tapes appear to show the real Howard Dean, and I just like him more and more.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/Default.aspx?id=3908334&p1=0

[GobGoober]

21. Man, based on this place, I thought it was over for Dean

I actually liked what I saw on those tapes. I don't know what the hell the guys dissin Dean over these tapes were smokin, but they should not bogart.

Share with your leftist buddies. we're all out to get those Bush bastards together.

:evilgrin:

.....................{
......................}
.....................{
......................}
......................{
<\\\\\\\\\\\\\|||}

[in_cog_ni_to]

28. Bush is a moderate. Bush is a moderate.

Bush is a moderate.

Bush is a radical. Bush is a radical. Bush is a radical.

Hey. If Clark can't say nice things about republicans. Neither can Dean.

[JaneQPublic]

27. Hell, I'd show these videos at the next Dean Meetup!!!

Get real, do you think Iowans have never questioned the caucus system themselves on occasion?!?!

The most important thing these clips shows is that the Dean we see today speaking his mind is the way Dean has always been. He's not a media creation, he is the real deal.

True, he may not always say the most politically correct or politically expedient thing (translation in DC-speak: he utterse "gaffes") but he can't help but speak his mind. And that in itself is the secret to his success.

[mb7588a]

50. Iowans are smart enough to figure them out... Why the diss?

[JaneQPublic]

70. What 'diss? (n/t)

[deminflorida]

30. If Dean or his supporters Ever say anything about Clark saying

nice things about Republicans again this tape is going to replay more than old epsisode of I Love Lucy....

That much I promise...

[bowens43]

79. LOL!

You aren't suggesting that this in any way equates to Clark's lavish praise for this administration are you? You can't be serious.

'And I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice... people I know very well - our president George W. Bush. We need them there.'"

"President George Bush had the courage and the vision... and we will always be grateful to President George Bush for that tremendous leadership and statesmanship."

[WI_DEM]

32. you people need a life.

You so much want Dean to be destroyed that you will grasp at anything. This won't do it. He will not implode like Kerry. And by the way, his comments on most children of unwed mothers not ending up on welfare. Great. Unwed moms are wonderful and caring people.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[farmbo]

40. If MSNBC doesn't cycle those tapes, the Dean campaign should.

They show a (young looking) Howard Dean forcefully articulating progressive values and giving absolutely no quarter to the conservative blunderbuss on the panel.

Sure he thought Bush was a moderate (in 2000) but as they say,fool me once...

The Iowa Caucus statements were pretty much on point and will not hurt him on the 19th.

[Printer70]

43. Chill out

He said Bush was a "moderate"- so what? He was wrong. Wes Clark said he was sure Saddam had WMD's - he was wrong, and it was about something far more serious. And correcting the hateful generaliziation that children of unwed mothers are condemned to welfare is not a crime.

[DemBones DemBones]

76. Being wrong about Bush was more serious

than being wrong about Saddam. Think about it.

[bowens43]

81. And Clark was wrong about both of them.....

the general is striking out....

[incapsulated]

44. I never want to read shit about how Clark praised Republicans

AGAIN!!!


I never, not once, thought anything like this, most certainly not after the election:

In an appearance after the 2000 presidential election, Dean made this comment about his former fellow governor, George W. Bush. “George Bush, I believe, is in his soul a moderate.” That’s certainly a contrast from this remark, which he said this November: “I believe that George Bush's philosophy in life is, if you're rich you deserve it and if you're poor you deserve it.”

[Printer70]

45. Point?

Dean thought Bush was a moderate. That's not a compliment- just an observation and Dean was wrong. He never said he supported Bush. Clark has said supportive things about Bush. All those things are relevant because when Clark attacks Bush now, it doesn't seem genunine- just another political calculation...like his flip-flop on the Iraq war.

[incapsulated]

46. oh, please

If anyone other than Dean said this, Dean himself would have hurled it at him as the ultimate insult, and his minons would parrot it happily.

"like his flip-flop on the Iraq war"

You mean like when Dean said he would approve of "unilateral" action against Iraq if Saddam didn't "co-operate" with inspectors in "30 to 60 days"? That flip-flop?

"just another political calculation"

Don't even go there. Dean is the master of calculation.

[clarknyc]

47. Consider Clark?

With you as an ambassador for the Clark campaign? I don't think so.

[incapsulated]

48. I'm just crushed!

:cry:

[Printer70]

49. You'll keep hearing Clark's praise..

...of Bush because it raises serious questions about his judgment, if not his allegiance. But as to Dean's support of "unilateral" war, I'm not aware of this quote- please cite the link. In any case, it's moot since Saddam allowed inspectors and they didn't find anything. In contrast, Clark supported the war resolution without qualifiers and supported the "blank check" authorization that caused the Iraq mess.

[slinkerwink]

51. this was a month before Bush was sworn into office

that fucking fucker had a lot of Americans thinking he was a moderate...

[incapsulated]

52. This was right after Florida and the recounts - December

Is this what you wanted to hear when it was still sinking in the the election was just stolen? Reassuring words about how Bush was a moderate in his soul?

I'm willing to never bring it up again as long as I don't have to hear how Clark said positive things at a Republican fundraiser anymore. He voted for Gore, period.

[Donkeyboy75]

53. how do you know

he voted for Gore?

[SahaleArm]

54. That's a silly argument - You don't know how anyone voted n/t

[incapsulated]

55. I only know..

How you voted because you say so, Donkeyboy. You could've voted for Bush, for all I know.

DesMoines Register 12/19/2002


"Though he claimed to be politically "right down the middle," he campaigned for only Democrats this year, including U.S. House candidate Katrina Swett in New Hampshire, where he also attended a private dinner with party activists. He campaigned in Georgia for Sen. Max Cleland, a Democratic Vietnam Veteran who lost, and in California for Rep. Tom Lantos.

A search of the Federal Elections Commission Web site also shows Clark made a $1,000 contribution to U.S. Senate candidate Erskine Bowles, a North Carolina Democrat and former chief of staff to President Clinton.

[Donkeyboy75]

56. If you don't know,

you shouldn't state is as fact. Maria Shriver campaigned for her husband (R) in 2002, but that doesn't mean she voted for Bush in 2000.

[QC]

62. How do we know who you voted for?

We take your word for it. We have a little something in this country known as the "secret ballot" which means that we don't have proof of how anyone voted, including you and me.

[Very Good Dem]

65. You can't have it both ways

You can't defend Dean for defending Bush as a moderate immediately following the Florida election while trashing Clark for defending Bush immediately after 9/11. You can try to parse the two situations all you want, but it doesn't wash. Just as you claim that, at the time Dean made the conmments, it wasn't yet clear that Bush was not a moderate, it can also be argued that at the time that Clark defended Bush's operation in Afghanistan, it wasn't yet clear that he planned to invade the rest of the world.

Both instances show how the candidates tried to give Bush the benefit of the doubt. It's easy to forget that, after the election, many Democrats consoled themselves with the notion (albeit misplaced) that maybe Bush "won't be that bad." And, after 9/11, most Americans, including Democrats, rallied around Bush in a show of solidarity against terrorism. So, it is silly to beat up on someone for saying, "We are united behind our president . . . George W. Bush is my commander-in-chief," in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.

[loyalsister]

95. What did we know?

By 9\11
We knew Bush's tax policy, his assault on women, his trashing of the education system......
Clarks' comments may be fine for a person rallying behind a president in a national emergency, but it also highlights what has been on my radar screen for a long time. No matter how many position papers he comes out with, because of those comments I am not convinced that Clark has suddenly expanded his tunnel vision.

[RetroLounge]

64. Oooh, is that an order?

Thanks, but since no one put you in charge, would you kindly PFO?

[bowens43]

80. Yes, just ignore it and it won't be true..........

You aren't trying equate clark's praise of the most vile members of the current administartion with Deans statement are you?

"President George Bush had the courage and the vision... and we will always be grateful to President George Bush for that tremendous leadership and statesmanship."

"I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Paul O'Neill, people I know very well. Our President George W. Bush. We need them there."

So you better not read this :-)

[quaker bill]

57. But But, this can't be...

"Yet he also shows that he’s much more consistent on issues — like affirmative action and trade — than some of his opponents give him credit for. And despite the constant complaints that Dean has no foreign policy experience, he demonstrates a good grasp of international affairs."

<<>>

"But other frequent guests on “The Editors” don’t believe that Dean ever demonstrated a temper. William Powers, a media critic at National Journal magazine, notes Dean always relished a good debate on the show. “He was combative and seemed to enjoy the combat.” But Powers, who wrote a 2002 article in National Journal about Dean’s appearances on the program, stresses he was never the angry person that his critics accuse him of being. “You never got a sense of real hostility.”"

<<>>

"And Dean seemed to display a sharp tongue a few times on the show. In an April 1998 discussion on welfare policy, one panelist remarked that 80 percent of children who are born to single mothers end up on welfare. Dean lashed out at that statement. “That is absolute crap. This is absolute unmitigated garbage.” (Welfare experts at the Brookings Institution and at the Center for Economic and Policy Research say Dean is most likely correct, certainly according to welfare rolls in the 1990s.)"

We must be afraid amd offended, Dean said something about welfare, that while unpopular.....happened to be correct.

In 2000 GW Bush ran as a moderate, many people believed it. Just another Bush* lie. Like the WMD thing that so many of our candidates believed when the "trusted the president".

[stickdog]

58. The nomination is now Clark's to lose. (nt)

[Cheswick2.0]

67. Before the selection of 2000....Clark raised money for bush AFTER

the selection.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

69. "(If welfare recipients) had any self-esteem, they'd be working"

http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/001560.php
In 1993, he derided welfare recipients, saying that if they "had any self-esteem, they'd be working." He later apologized for the remark.

[snoochie]

90. He's evolved since then, though, right?

Will the real Howard Dean please stand up?

[jcgadfly]

72. How does this differ from Clark saying that

the Bush administration "needs to be there (in power)" when the War on Terra began?

[RogueTrooper]

75. Astroturf Outrage

Shocked, Shocked I tell ya!

:eyes:

[bowens43]

77. What was it again that Clark said about bush?

Care to remind us? You know what I'm talking about and it was MUCH more recent then this tape. You want to tell us or would you like me to post it again and again and again.

Your attempts to smear Dean when your candidate has shown far greater errors in judgment then Dean makes you look disingenuous.

Unbelievable.

[Hep]

78. Where is the integrity? Where is the fair mindedness?

It's not in the heart of anyone who brings this up without even mentioning the dates or the context, that much is for sure.

Hateful, mean spirited, and they think they have a right to do it, because "It's the primaries".

I'm glad I've seen some of this come out. Now I know the people at DU who aren't worthy of saving from a flood.

[PatrickS]

82. Club For Growth/Wes Clark folks are working overtime

It's UNBELIEVABLE. SIMPLY UNBELIEVABLE!!!

:evilgrin:

[bitchkitty]

83. Puhleeeeeeeeeeze.

Actually, keep it up. I love the smell of lame Clark-supporter desperation in the morning.

[Snivi Yllom]

89. i dont believe it

:(

[liberalmike27]

91. Clark

Is a Republican. I don't want to have to use a Republican to beat a Republican. I don't know how you guys can square this, he was trying to get a job in the Bush administration in 2001, and speaking positively about this bunch a couple of years ago. He voted for Reagan, a guy who wanted to consider a ketchup packet a vegetable, a guy who ran the deficit up to 3 Trillion, still unpaid. You must look at his past. We've had enough Republican-Democrats, like Clinton.

We need a Rooseveltian Pluralist like Dean now, who understands that spending in America is part of the necessity for capitalism to work. Raising a living-wage, and providing a 100 billion dollar job-plan, rather than letting the fat-cats have their huge tax-breaks, hoping they open a local business, when in actuality they invest in multinational, and transnational corporations who send our American jobs to foreign lands, and leave our borders setting up store-fronts to avoid taxes.

Besides, Clark stole his whole script from Dean anyway, coming on all the shows, giving the same anti-war, shouldn't have gone to Iraq thing. He had to, as being a Republican, he didn't have one himself!!

[KittyWampus]

92. How Many DU Threads Asked "Did You Think Jr. Would Be This Bad"?

So many people, many with Dean avatars, would laud their own divinatory skills.

The MAJORITY of people would claim to have known from the get go Bush was a radical right wing piss-ant.

[creativelcro]

93. GWB is a moderate with brain damage, OK ?

He's surrounded by extremists and lack the brain power to do something about it.