Senate healthcare bill pays for Christian prayer "treatments"!!!

[Better Believe It]

Healthcare provision seeks to embrace prayer treatments
A little-noticed measure would put Christian Science healing sessions on the same footing as clinical medicine. Critics say it violates the separation of church and state.
By Tom Hamburger and Kim Geiger
November 3, 2009

Reporting from Washington - Backed by some of the most powerful members of the Senate, a little-noticed provision in the healthcare overhaul bill would require insurers to consider covering Christian Science prayer treatments as medical expenses.

The measure would put Christian Science prayer treatments -- which substitute for or supplement medical treatments -- on the same footing as clinical medicine. While not mentioning the church by name, it would prohibit discrimination against "religious and spiritual healthcare."

Phil Davis, a senior Christian Science Church official, said prayer treatment was an effective alternative to conventional healthcare. "We are making the case for this, believing there is a connection between healthcare and spirituality," said Davis, who distributed 11,000 letters last week to Senate officials urging support for the measure.

Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a group of atheists and agnostics that promotes separation of church and state, said the opportunity to receive payment for spiritual care could encourage other groups to seek similar status.

Erwin Chemerinsky, dean of the UC Irvine School of Law, said the provision raised serious questions about government support of religion. "I think when Congress mandates that health companies provide coverage for prayer, it has the effect of the government advancing religion," he said.

Davis has been trained as a practitioner and still occasionally treats the sick. "We'll talk to them about their relationship to God," he said. "We'll talk to them about citations or biblical passages they might study. We refer to it as treatment. It's an affirmation of their relationship with God, and the understanding that comes from their prayer, of their relationship with God."

During the day, Davis may see multiple patients and pray for them at different moments. He charges them $20 to $40 for the day, saying, "I think that it would be considered modest by any standard."


The prayer provision was inserted by Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah)

Please read the complete article at:

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-na-health-religion3-2009nov03,0,6879249,full.story

[snagglepuss]

1. Unbelieveable . k & R nt

[olegramps]

35. This is what I find as being rather strange:

"The provision was inserted by Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) with the support of Democratic Sens. John F. Kerry and the late Edward M. Kennedy, both of Massachusetts, home to the headquarters of the Church of Christ, Scientist."

Think that there may be a conflict of interest?

[joeycola]

37. Beyond Strange!!

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

2. How do we know what's in the Senate Bill? has it been posted anywhere? nt

[Dr Robert]

16. you should know better than to ask this poster to be truthful or free from agenda

[Better Believe It]

17. Are you are horse doctor, Dr. Robert? The two Senate bills have been posted for weeks!

You didn't read the articles before commenting?

Do you also write movie reviews on films you haven't seen?

Dr. Robert .... do you have any patients left or have they all filed malpractice suits against you?

:)

Do I need to put you on ignore for incompetence, malpractice and uncivil behavior?

:)

[Dr Robert]

19. I will be laughing in your face with the rest of America when Obama signs the Public option into Law

You do realize that his success ultimately means that eventually noone will pay attention to you whatsoever.

And all your pathetic attempts to drag him down will have been nothing more than wasted time.

That can't make you feel very good since you have invested so much of yourself in your opposition.
What will you have left?

[Better Believe It]

20. What public option? The incredibly shrinking one?

The one that President Obama says only represents a "sliver" of his healthcare proposal?

Oh .... that one!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8728469

So with my help were you able to find the two Senate health care bills on the internet that you claim haven't been posted yet?

[Dr Robert]

21. since it is clear there will be a PO now, you have changed your tune

first you said Obama sucked for not getting a PO

now you say he sucks for getting us one that doesn't meet your standards.

why don't you just drop the charade and tell us what you really think?

you will believe Obama sucks no matter what he does.
quit pretending to be objective.

[Better Believe It]

22. Why are you lying about what I wrote? I never wrote that.

You claim that "first you said Obama sucked for not getting a PO"

I never wrote that. If you think I did, why did you fail to post a link?

Well, keep the trash talk up and you'll win a place on my ignore list.

If you can't engage in civil debate and discussion with DU'ers and would rather engage in mindless trash talk and personal attacks perhaps you should look for a trash talk discussion board that meets your requirements.

Again, this is not a trash talk board so stop that!

OK?

[Dr Robert]

24. so says the King of Obama Trash Talk

I am willing to bet that you hold the record for the most posts with negative rec counts.

Why do you think that is?

[Better Believe It]

29. What's wrong. Can't find any posts that back up your previous lying charge?

much less your newest false claim.

You're really pushing the envelope with your trash talk directed against DU'ers you disagree with.

Forget it.

No more chances for you.

You're on the ignore list.

[joeycola]

39. Your so-called logic is breathtaking to say the least...

"You do realize that his success ultimately means that eventually noone will pay attention to you whatsoever."



:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

[donco6]

34. He is being truthful.

As opposed to you.

Reporting from Washington - Backed by some of the most powerful members of the Senate, a little-noticed provision in the healthcare overhaul bill would require insurers to consider covering Christian Science prayer treatments as medical expenses.

The provision was inserted by Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) with the support of Democratic Sens. John F. Kerry and the late Edward M. Kennedy, both of Massachusetts, home to the headquarters of the Church of Christ, Scientist.

The measure would put Christian Science prayer treatments -- which substitute for or supplement medical treatments -- on the same footing as clinical medicine. While not mentioning the church by name, it would prohibit discrimination against "religious and spiritual healthcare."

[Better Believe It]

18. Yes. The two Senate healthcare bills have been posted on the internet for weeks!

Senator Reid may not include the prayer provision in the merged bill he is preparing.

Read the article.

[donco6]

33. Read it yourself.

Reporting from Washington - Backed by some of the most powerful members of the Senate, a little-noticed provision in the healthcare overhaul bill would require insurers to consider covering Christian Science prayer treatments as medical expenses.

The provision was inserted by Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) with the support of Democratic Sens. John F. Kerry and the late Edward M. Kennedy, both of Massachusetts, home to the headquarters of the Church of Christ, Scientist.

The measure would put Christian Science prayer treatments -- which substitute for or supplement medical treatments -- on the same footing as clinical medicine. While not mentioning the church by name, it would prohibit discrimination against "religious and spiritual healthcare."

[joeycola]

38. It is a provison already in the bill.

[Arugula Latte]

3. Oh, FFS!!!

:banghead: :grr:

[Fearless]

4. Not soul-based death panels!!!

:rofl:

[quantass]

5. God bless Duers for using Logic to see through this Faith nonsense...

I am a pretty hardcore factual person and so religious magical nonsense serves no purpose in my life and so to see silly provisions like this i am at least comforted to know that there are other fellow DUers who think the same. Education is the only way to fight this ongoing ignorance.

[SpartanDem]

9. Yeah we're all uneducated idiots

you know every not person of faith is an evolution denying, science hating, book burning retard

[ej510]

6. Damn people are stupid.

:rofl:

[ProSense]

7. It's a strange amendment, typical Hatch, but this is the MSM trying to yank people's chains again

The measure would put Christian Science prayer treatments -- which substitute for or supplement medical treatments -- on the same footing as clinical medicine. While not mentioning the church by name, it would prohibit discrimination against "religious and spiritual healthcare."

<...>

Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a group of atheists and agnostics that promotes separation of church and state, said the opportunity to receive payment for spiritual care could encourage other groups to seek similar status.

It doesn't specifically mention a religious or spiritual group so it can apply to anyone.

It would be highly controversial for it to specifically state "Christian."

[Democrats_win]

8. Why do you hate America? Patriots support the "fraud-enterprise" system!

Why don't people get it? The point of our economic system is to allow people the freedom to commit economic fraud against other individuals and the government.

Anyway, if we're spending money on "christain" healthcare "treatments," at least we aren't spending the money on the other bush-style "christian treatment," a.k.a. war.

[Better Believe It]

10. Christian Scientists want 'spiritual care' as part of health bill

Should prayers be covered?
Christian Scientists want 'spiritual care' as part of health bill
By Tom Hamburger and Kim Geiger
November 1, 2009


WASHINGTON - -- As the health care battle moved forward last week, Phil Davis, a senior Christian Science church official, hurriedly delivered bundles of letters to Senate offices promoting a little-noticed proposal in the legislation requiring insurers to consider covering the church's prayer treatments just as they do other medical expenses.

Critics say the proposal would essentially put Christian Science prayer treatments on the same footing as science-based medical care by prohibiting discrimination against "religious and spiritual health care."

While advancing below the radar as debate focuses on larger issues such as the "public option," the Christian Scientists' proviso has begun to stir controversy because it rekindles debate on three long-running and sensitive issues: freedom of religion; the constitutional separation of church and state; and the question of whether faith-based approaches should be treated as equivalent to science-based medicine.

The outlook for the Christian Science coverage proposal is uncertain.

Final action on health care is still weeks away, and scores of changes and tweaks are likely to be made in the House and Senate before final legislation is approved.

Two House committees voted to include the measure in their versions of the overhaul, but Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., stripped it from the consolidated House bill in response to arguments that it was unconstitutional.

Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., is considering whether to include it in the overhaul bill he sends to the Senate floor.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-tc-health-religion-1031-1101nov01,0,7735579.story

[phleshdef]

11. That article implies that its not actually in the bill. Your OP title should be changed.

[Better Believe It]

12. I believe it's already in a Senate bill but may not appear in the combined bill of Senator Reid.

The article doesn't state which of the two original Senate bills it appears in.

Reid can take it out.

[phleshdef]

13. The tribune article said it WAS in house bills, but Pelosi took it out and Reid is deciding...

...on the Senate bill.

[Better Believe It]

15. The article clearly states the prayer proposal is part of a Senate bill.

It just doesn't indicate which of the two Senate bills it is in. Probably not the Finance Committee bill.

Senator Reid may decide to not include it in his merged Senate bill.

From the article:

"Backed by some of the most powerful members of the Senate, a little-noticed provision in the healthcare overhaul bill would require insurers to consider covering Christian Science prayer treatments as medical expenses."

"The provision was inserted by Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) with the support of Democratic Sens. John F. Kerry and the late Edward M. Kennedy, both of Massachusetts, home to the headquarters of the Church of Christ, Scientist."

[phleshdef]

14. "that qualify as spiritual care if the care is recognized by the IRS as a legitimate medical expense

Interesting.

[PatSeg]

23. Charging for prayers???

I guess everything has a price these days, but I know of churches and individuals who pray for FREE.

[Better Believe It]

25. But their "prayer" fees are competitive with actual medical treatments!

I'm not sure if any scientific results have been published on the effectiveness of prayers to a Christian god in fighting illness.

I do think prayers to the Christian god can help a baseball team win a World Series if you pray harder than the team you are competing against.

:)

[PatSeg]

26. I wonder if there are generic prayers

to compete with the name-brand prayers! Walmart could charge $4.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

30. Hindus will do services in your name for a fee.

There are many different services addressed to different dieties for success, health, etc. in thousands of different temples.

Buddhists, I don't know if they do it just for a donation or not.
=======================

I have an elderly aunt who is a Christian Science practitioner in Ohio. She is nutty as a fruitcake, in my opinion. She's about ninety by now, I think.

One minute she's wonderful, the next minute she screamed at me for ten minutes about wasting energy. Why? For opening her front door to get some fresh air when it was 80 inside, and 35 outside, in Akron for gawds sake.

After that outburst, I decided that when I left I would never see her again.

[PatSeg]

36. Voluntary donations I can understand,

but charging a "fee" for prayers sounds a bit suspicious to me. I was involved in a Unity church for years and prayers were offered to those who needed them without any expectation of reimbursement.

My grandparents were Christian Science and they were generally very healthy people. Sadly my grandmother died of a minor ailment that would have easily been treated by a doctor, but she refused to seek medical attention. All of their six children rejected the religion as adults and none of them ever became involved in any organized religion.

Unity grew out of the "new thought movement" of the latter 19th century, the same movement that gave birth to Christian Science, but Unity embraced teachings from many religions and encouraged individual seeking of truth. There was no strict dogma and all contributions were strictly voluntary.

Your aunt sounds like quite a character. Every family usually has one or two!

[TheKentuckian]

27. Pay for prayer just doesn't jibe with "What would Jesus do?"

These folks are warped beyond imagination.

[PatSeg]

40. Yeah

I'm quite sure he never issued a bill after healing the blind and the sick. Seems to me the giving was the reward.

[inna]

28. you have got to be kidding me.

dang.

kr

[boppers]

31. Aw, HELL NO. Prayer is worse than placebo.

Prayer makes people sicker, if they know about it.

[Vinca]

32. OMG - I see a moneymaking opportunity here.

Time to establish a PayPal-connected, "I'll Pray For You" web site.:rofl:

[WinkyDink]

41. Isn't "Pay for Prayers" just a tad Medieval?

[Better Believe It]

42. For only an extra $50 they'll throw in these Jesus bandages and a Jesus sticker!