The French, Vaberella, and the Obama "lovers"....

[vaberella]

Now, this is a short point I wanted to make, or just really me recounting a discussion I had yesterday. I sat on this due to shitty internet (damn you France) and the fact I wanted to mull this over in my head to come up with some sort of understanding as to why I find the French much more logical than fellow Americans or even fellow Progressives (I'm an independent who votes Dem).

Now I'm currently living in Paris, France, it's turning from your normal one year exchange program to living here indefinitely. I wasn't thinking of myself as getting acclimated to this nation since I wasn't pulled in by the place----meaning it didn't have the same affect on me like London did when I lived there for 5 years. However, it took me about a week (after severe jetlag) to really loved it there. Anyway moving from nostalgia.

So yesterday, I dropped off my kid at the municipal center (ie government center (like Senior Center) as it's called here but it's for everyone in the town who works for the Government or have government connection---yeah even the trash man can use the halls for free). My kid, is a kid I take care of as a jeune fille au pair (or young girl babysitter). And since I had an hour to kill I decided to have a seat. Then all of the sudden this older French guy walks in rather boisterous and starts offering everyone coffee. He was able to tell that I was not one of them and started speaking English. I responded and just said I hated the stuff and then he started asking me where I was from.

I let him know I was from New York and he was like talking about how he loved it in Manhattan and a little on his travels. He was born in Algeria, but lived and worked in Toronto Canada for years and only visited the US. He had a close friend who lived on 61st and Broadway and I said...ooh MONEY! Then that brought us into talking about the economy. I tested him on his knowledge of NYC to gt an idea and he actually knew about Nuyoricans and the such (impressive since I know some New Yorkers who have no idea). I asked because I live in Harlem.

In any event, my money comment drove us into talking about the economy. And this was his question to me, which shocked me, impressed me, and left me utterly unnerved and pissed off all at the same time. And this was his question "word for word", "Why do the people in your country expect Obama to fix the economy in 10 months?" He continues on by saying, "It took Clinton at least 5 years + to repair the damage the first Bush did and Reagan did." And from what he could see, "Obama has 8 years of an economic crises and war from the second Bush."

He left me stunned. I was like well...you've said it best. I wanted to say, "out of the mouth of babes," but the man is 30 years my senior. In any event, I was left shocked. I come to DU and I have seen my fair share of threads that continuously stalk the President's decision because of Geithner, Summers, and Emmanuel and what not. I sit there and I had to wonder, the thing has just started. Only 13% or so used, and 58% allocated leaving basically more than 80% not spread out. This is supposed to be used over a period f time.

But it was more shocking to see that someone over the water and has no real vested interest in American politics understand all of this. While we have Dems here who think he's another Bush, or a corporatist or bought off by Corporations and so on and so forth.

Then because I found it interesting I asked him about health care and he was like...that was disgusting. He said, "The insurance companies are ripping you off." He thought we should take them out. He said France had great health care and they only pay 10 euros or around 20 euros for an appointment. But he said he knows of appointments (without insurance) costing near the 100 dollars in the US and he couldn't comprehend that. So apparently they pay for doctors appointments here. Also he said they pay for meds but it's extremely low cost.

Anyway he was very informative and really loved Obama. He was like, "Americans need to give him some time. He's only been President for 10 months (surprised me he said it) and if we gave Bush 8 years to create the mess we're in and the financial collapse, we need to give Obama time to clean it up like Clinton had."


In any event, I told him that he and most French people are Obama cheerleaders by the estimation of some of the people in the US. By the way he thinks teabaggers are nuts.

As an aside guys...I wasn't here during the time and I'm not sure if DU was around during the time, but did Dems criticize Clinton's economic advisor's as much as Obama's? I'm sure Repubs hated anything Clinton did. But what were the Dems like, just an honest question. I personally think Clinton did a lot of good for this nation (Haiti maybe not so much but the US--yeah). ^_^

[lapfog_1]

1. We are and have (over generations) become, an instant gratification

society. I want it and I want it NOW is the motto of every generation that started with the baby boomers (me).

Our corporations have instilled this in us with constant bombardment of advertising.

We have come to expect it so much, that any perceived lack of suitable speed in delivery is WORSE than actual out and out denial of the desire.

Much tantrum throwing ensues. Hence, DU.

[vaberella]

7. That's what I'm seeing.

Don't get me wrong. I don't knock them because at times I feel a sense of urgency. The 8 years was a long time and I put a lot on O's shoulder myself, more so on Congress since those guys are the ones that really need to go for the bat for me, that's why I voted those guys in. But most definitely I think there needs to be some understanding that some things don't happen over night and from what I can see Obama seriously takes time to consider his options. I like that in a President. The one before was playing Russian Roulette with the nation and the world.

[Odin2005]

17. I've been saying that for a while.

The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice.

[CitizenLeft]

2. I hate you!

You live in Paris? And you got to live in London for 5 years?

I hate you!

(more importantly, I agree with you and with all of those who realize that 9 months is a spit in the bucket - it's going to take much longer to even get the job market stabilized, much less getting the economy to grow where we actually see the benefits in our budgets. We'll be lucky to see daylight - Clinton-like recovery - by the end of his 2nd term)

Paris! London! Hate you! :loveya:

[vaberella]

11. ^_^ If you go back to University, they give you a lot of opportunities to live abroad.

Plus if you have the freedom, ie no wife/husband, kids, or mortgage. Those things can be a hamper in getting out there. I have none. I rent.

[CitizenLeft]

18. I had my chance, and I blew it

I was accepted by a small college near Oxford - Warnborough University - when I was 20. In the end, I chickened out. Not because of money - didn't want to leave Mom and ex-boyfriend (LOL - EX-boyfriend. Dipshit.) Not leaving Mom was the right decision, but it still leaves me sadly nostalgic.

So... my bad - I coulda! But I did get to visit. London is the only city outside of the US I'd want to live. Paris, not so much, but I loved it too.

Good for you! Happy for you (and damned envious!)

On edit: curious, I googled Warnborough. It's now a "distance" online-type college. Whoa. Thirty years ago, it was a "real" college geared towards students abroad. I'd have loved it.

[vaberella]

24. Ahh... I never heard of it. I went to Middlesex Uni in Northern London.

I loved it. I want to move back to London. Definitely agree that it would be the place to live. My family is moving in large numbers to France though--as Haitians they're all French speakers, but they liked what I had to say. Further more they're all retiring. And after 2 years of getting my degree here....I get French citizenship, so I was like it will make it easier for them to get a house and everything here without too much red tape.

[CitizenLeft]

28. how wonderful for your family!

Dual citizenship? Watch it, you'll have problems running for prez... ;)

[vaberella]

30. I was born in Haiti. I'm already out. ^_^

And once I became a citizen of the US I lost my Haitian citizenship (they don't recognize dual because of an extremely outdated constitution). So I'm out...however I like the Reps, I might run for a rep in NYC.

[CitizenLeft]

33. PLEASE DO...

seriously! DO! How awesome would that be?!

[Aristus]

3. Thanks for your great post. I enjoyed reading it, and I miss Europe.

I'd love to live there again, but I have a mortgage, and a wife who doesn't like to travel, so I'm stuck for a while. The Democratic Underground went on the Net on Jan. 20, 2001, the day the Clown Prince was sworn in. But I have no doubt that there would have been a great deal of criticism of Bill Clinton here if DU had existed during his administration. I myself am not crazy about some of the decisions he made, but on balance, I thought he was an excellent President and a gifted leader.

[vaberella]

10. Sorry to here that.

You'd love it here. Drama erupts a lot. So far my school hasn't gone on strike yet, but I'm waiting for it. But the people here are very politically engaged and it seems in both their own and US politics. I've seen some Clinton bashers on this site so I know that many of them aren't too happy. I was never fond of the Clinton foreign policies, however domestically excluding DADT and DOMA, I didn't think he was so bad.

[TexasProgresive]

4. K & R

Thanks for giving us this French man's take. I really can't answer your question whether Clinton got attacked by members of the Democratic party, I just can't remember. What I do remember is that the Congress, though Democratic, did not support him as it should.

And the man is right. I work for a Telcom formerly GTE now Verizon that in our area hired nobody during the 12 years of Raygun/B*sh hell - it was all downsizing - with Clinton the downsizing ceased but it was about his 4th or 5th year that GTE in our area began to hire again.

[vaberella]

26. Thanks for this.

I understood the problem Clinton faced domestically was a shitty Congress as well. They haven't changed that much since his time..well the Repubs have and I get the feeling the bad Dems are being weeded out, or I hope they are or we can work around them.

[Arkana]

5. We're in the age of microwaves, instant coffee, and the Internet.

Everyone wants everything instantly--we've turned into a generation of Veruca Salts.

[vaberella]

15. Yeah. n/t

[grantcart]

6. The answer to his question is this

There are a large group of Republicans and a small group of independents and Democrats that resent President Obama becoming President.


They resent it for different reasons, some are racists and some simply preferred another candidate.


They have been waiting for President Obama to make a gigantic mistake so that they can all come in with their gigantic "told you so".


President Obama has refused to oblige their request so now they are left with simply now criticizing the pace of his rebuilding, I am sure that Moses teenage son said something to the effect "sure you parted the sea but did we have to wait in the sun for 4 hours while you were getting everything straight?".

[vaberella]

14. Holy Shit!!! I think this the best post ever.

And I think you're right.

[butterfly77]

35. That just about sums it up..

and it irritates the hell out of me watching the media,who are also in on it..

[HamdenRice]

8. You've learned a sad truth: Americans are stupid by international standards including "progressives"

Having lived abroad myself, I would say that the average college educated American has about as much political sophistication as an illiterate Soweto street kid (at least the illiterate Soweto street kids I knew c. 1989 -- things may have deteriorated there).

That's not an exaggeration, because the illiterate Soweto street kid grew up in an environment of rational political analysis and discourse.

Most Americans do not have a framework of "reason" -- logical thinking, a regard for facts, an understanding of political and economic structures. In fact, most Americans believe the president is some sort of elected king -- or worse, an elected wizard.

This is true across the left/right political spectrum.

[vaberella]

13. I realize this fact.

I always tend to compare the left wanting Obama to do certain things to what the right had Bush do, even if he had to lie and break every law to do it. I thought we wanted Obama to follow the rule of law. And I can see Obama seems to hold hte democratic process sacred. However the ones of the left seem to want him to armtwist and basically ignore Congress to get things done. Which he can't do.

[rug]

9. What did this gentleman think of Afghanistan?

[vaberella]

12. Shoot, we didn't get a chance to talk about it.

We spent most times talking about domestic issues. If I see him next Friday, I will ask him.

[rug]

20. Coming from Algeria, he should have an interesting perspective.

[vaberella]

21. If I see him I'll ask.

You're right he would. If I don't see him, I'll ask the guys at the center for him because he lives there.

[pansypoo53219]

16. i blame the gnews. BUT

we are still living with mccarthyism and the FEAR of socialism because of the word. never mind we were against COMMUNISM. but the media is corporate. of corporation, by corporations, FOR corporations.
NPR had a good thing on why health insurance is tied to jobs.

hell, the gnews demand obama fix the economy NOW and the returds are bitching he's doing it all wrong. there's no breathing space. and amerikans have been brainwashed.

[Egnever]

19. The majority of americans seem to like being afraid of something

If there isnt some boogyman to be screaming about people seem to get uncomfortable.


Hey there V BTW!

[vaberella]

22. Hiya. It's weird because the Europeans are not like that.

Don't get me wrong, they're watching him but they even said we (US citizens) voted for him for 4 years and they're expecting a lot too because they do believe he wants to do a lot for the world. That being said they are very understanding and don't like screaming foul before the ball has even been played.

Edited to make "US citizens" clarification.

[beac]

23. When I lived in Italy, I was on a bus in April '04 with a guy from Nigeria who knew

more, MUCH more, about Kerry, Bush and their various political views than probably the vast majority of the American electorate did at that same time.

And this was one of those guys who sells bootleg CDs and fake Prada bags on the street. (They are lured to Italy w/the promise of a 'good job' only to have their passports confiscated by their bosses and end up as virtual slaves in the counterfeiting industry.)

We had a very interesting and in-depth conversation about American vs. world politics while we rode along to our stop. He was amazed at the crap Bush got away with. It was disappointing to have to admit that most Americans were selfish and apathetic and don't bother to educate themselves about much of anything going on globally, much less in their own backyard.

I can only IMAGINE what that guy thought of Sarah Palin. :crazy:


Glad you are having such a wonderful experience in Paris. I'd stay there as long as you possibly can! :)

[vaberella]

25. It's embarassing actually that they know so much about ours...

When most of us don't know about ours or theirs.

[beac]

34. Especially since in Italy election 'season' lasts only a few weeks.

During that time, the local government puts up temporary 'walls' for campaign posters and the newspapers are full of election-related information. Italians have about a month to decide for whom they will vote. Here, people have two YEARS to get informed and most still can't be bothered. Of course, our baby-down-the-well-juicy-murder-story-oh-look-Britney! newsfotainment media doesn't help matters.


I remember being impressed at the 75% turnout in my Italian town for what was the equivalent of a city council election here, until my Italian friend said that was a 'pretty pathetic' number. Have we EVER had 75% turnout in ANY US election??

[SKKY]

27. I have found that Europeans, generallly speaking, have a much better...

...understanding of America than most Americans. And certainly a better understanding of us than we do of them.

[Cha]

29. THis is too Sweet,

vaberella~!

Thank you so much for writing so eloquently about what some of us do know in this country:patriot::patriot:

[vaberella]

31. De Nada. n/t

[Cleita]

32. Maybe we want him to become more like FDR and

FDR got a lot done in his first six months of office. I want him to succeed too.

[Number23]

36. It's amazing, isn't it?? I'm always saying that soo many people who scream and holler the loudest

about what Obama hasn't done are the ones who have seen and done the LEAST in this world.

I'm living in my fourth foreign country and girl, the minute I open my mouth and people hear my SOUTHERN American accent they can't wait to tell me how much they love Obama.

And like you, these are not people who just like him because he's cute and has a gorgeous family; they RECOGNIZE and UNDERSTAND what is going on in the world and they do it so much better than Americans. Many of these people could talk rings around the average American regarding our foreign policy and probably a whole bunch of other American policies as well. I lived abroad when Bush was in office too and the distaste most of the world had for him is every bit as palpable as the affection the world now has for Obama.

I really think that my having been so many places is what's contributed to me being a moderate. I've lived in democracies and theocracies and even had brushes with a few places that had royal rulers as well, and I have no interest in mouth-breathing ideologues on EITHER side of the equation.

Kicked and rec'd.

[vaberella]

37. I lived in England at the time of Bush.

I remember an incident on the bus once. This guy just started railing about Americans, being 1 of 4 people in that part of the bus and the only American talking...I knew he was talking about me. And when he left the bus the look he gave me. Shit. Then there was the people who came up to my face to let me know what they thought of our politics....as though I was the only person in teh US and the ONLY one who could have voted for Bush. Then there was the ones who lumped me with all the "stupid americans" who loved the thought of war and going to Afghanistan and Iraq..and I'm trying to tell the guy I want us to leave Japan. Why would I go to more countries?! Ugh, it's terrible and everyone in Europe I've met are extremely politically aware.

[cascadiance]

38. The proper question isn't why we criticize Obama & not criticize Clinton...

... but why DIDN'T we criticize Clinton?

As an aside guys...I wasn't here during the time and I'm not sure if DU was around during the time, but did Dems criticize Clinton's economic advisor's as much as Obama's? I'm sure Repubs hated anything Clinton did. But what were the Dems like, just an honest question. I personally think Clinton did a lot of good for this nation (Haiti maybe not so much but the US--yeah). ^_^

Without the internet the way it is now, it was earlier too easy to overlook the downsides of a lot of what passed through the Clinton administration as an evolution of the economic death spiral that started with Reagan. NAFTA/GATT, the Telecomm Act, and many other similar crappy pieces of legislation shouldn't have gone through, which we're paying heavily for now, and are a lot harder to correct. There were some reversals of what Reagan/Bush era brought us, but still a lot of what happened just kept inflating our bubble then.

The problem is, we'll never get the kind of leadership ala FDR, without a leadership that isn't so compromised by institutionalized bribery we have today, nor without grass roots opposition that doesn't just cheerlead one of the two parties over the other without scrutinizing closely what even their "favored" party is doing. If we had better challenges fromt he left, like FDR did, we just might get some MEANINGFUL legislation passed like which was passed in his time, to fix the mess we're in.

We need to keep pressuring Obama to do the right thing, and not just cheerlead stuff without looking hard at the big picture and what is going on, or NOT going on to address the fundamental problems we're facing today, that aren't necessarily rewarding their campaign contributors.

Now if this healthcare bill passes, and it IS a pretty slimy compromise, and afterward, Obama were to acknowledge that it is a piece of crap, that has some good things in it, but still is a massively bad piece of legislation that doesn't really do what is needed, and says this is why step 2 of his administration is to pass fundamental public campaign financing legislation, THEN I could see perhaps there was a strategy going on to maybe lose a battle and use that to try and win the war. Because ultimately the pay to play institutionalized bribery is THE problem to be fixed now before we can meaningfully deal with any other problem and not be compromised by special interests lobbying.

[tomm2thumbs]

39. Perfectly stated - thanks for posting!

[Scurrilous]

40. Kick

:kick: