Let's see where DU really stands. Rec if you are happy that the House passed Health Care Reform

[Aramchek]

The opponents of HCR and the 'Single Payer or Bust' purists are throwing their collective tantrums.
It was inevitable.

But let's see how the majority here actually feel.

We are closer to Healthcare reform than at anytime in the past Century.
The Bill has passed the House,
and have no doubts, it will pass the Senate, too.

Our efforts will make this Nation a better place for Generations to come.
And Barack Obama will go down in History as the President who led us to this breakthrough.

[RBInMaine]

1. Not ideal, but an ADVANCE. A good START. SUPPORT IT !

[Go2Peace]

19. You will get net recs because most here will hold their nose and accept the bill

many here just don't get why half the party is quite upset. HCR was too important to fuck around playing politics with. And that is what happened. It is better than nothing but it shows a serious lack of fortitude and respect for what people really want to be fought for.

[impik]

39. It's not half of the party. Far from it

You think it's easy? How come no one passed this "bad" reform until now?

[Aramchek]

47. you are not even close to half of the Party. but nice attempt to spin.

[Scairp]

92. We really don't if it's better than nothing

It could turn out to be worse than nothing. I need to read the thing, but I already know that so much had to be sacrificed to get any bill passed it might as well have failed and then they could have started all over again. I still am unable to understand how Democrats, who have claimed for decades that they were dying to completely overhaul the health care industry in this country, couldn't get it done exactly the way they wanted it when they finally got control. Say what you will about what heartless pricks Republicans are, but at least they get it done when they say they are going to. When they had everything under their control, they got everything they wanted. It was really destructive shit of course, but they got it done. Why can't Democrats do the same when they now control it all? I'm really not getting it. Am I missing something?

[xxqqqzme]

174. Then I'm missing something as well.

I think we belong to the democratic wing of the Democratic Party. And we just got used as a doormat by corporate health insurance parasites in their stampede to throw wads of money at legislators.

[zoff]

114. Well put.

How many dead and bankrupt again? HCR is not an issue to play politics with.

[Chulanowa]

120. Tell me honestly

You say that health care reform is too important to play politics with. On hte face of it I agree.

But certainly you know any important piece of legislation is always going to have politics played over it, right? The bigger the bill, the more it's going to get mangled in congress. It's a fucking guarantee. Bills to commemorate the invention of Gouda don't get politics played on them because nobody gives a shit about gouda.

But health care? Everyone's tacking every little last fucking thing they can onto health care, they're doing their best to twist it into a form they can take home to their constituents and go "Look what I did!" and everyone involved is going to back up others in doing this because of the back-scratching potential.

Ergo, the bigger the sacred cow, the more profaned it will get. It's like a law of physics.

With that in mind, I realize that this bill was never, ever, EVER going to be "perfect". I also realize it could have been rendered into a vastly shittier form than it was. Yes, i'm a nose-holder, because unfortunately, a better bill would have gotten more fucked around with.

[PSzymeczek]

53. As long as they use it

as a foundation to build on.

[bjobotts]

100. We are only allowed to have so much but all we did was get the door open on HC reform

[bjobotts]

101. The people pressured congress to disobey the corporatocracy-oh my.

[bjobotts]

102. Why is it we always come down to the majority saying "It's better than nothing at all"

[bjobotts]

103. What was revealed by this issue more than anything is how bribed and bought our senate really is

[Ineeda]

118. It revealed something almost more important than that.

It showed that the repugs will make demands, the dems will accommodate those demands, and the repugs will not support it anyway. It revealed that the dems have been too conciliatory, too willing to compromise for the sake of 'bipartisanship' that will not happen. The price has been a bill that no one is completely (or even moderately) happy with. The good things are 1) that the bill, as flawed as it is, passed despite the powerfully concerted effort of repugs and insurance companies. 2) It is a start and an historical accomplishment. 3)the experience (hopefully) has taught the dems not to give in to the schoolyard bullies, to fight back, because after you've given them your lunch money, they're going to want your jacket and shoes, too. And after all that's said, 4) if the bill had failed, it would have more empowered and energized the RW and we would get nothing else accomplished during Obama's term in office.

[renate]

163. I wish I could rec your post

So, instead: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Why don't the Democrats learn that the Republicans will never, ever, ever play well with others?

[liberalmike27]

189. I think you're the rightest so far.

They are just bought and paid for.

They've already poisened the bill to the max, with the fines, or taxes, or forcing people to buy insurance. By the way, that's just money taken from the regular economy, so people will be buying less food, less houses, less iPods, less of everything, as they will be required to buy insurance. But it doesn't matter, since the bill is already done.

After it comes out of the Senate, it is even going to be more lethal, more filled with venom, poisonous to Americans, good for insurance companies.

So, someone, like Moynahan did last time, probably one, or many democrats, will get all indignant, as they should, and see it as nothing but a big corporate giveaway, and of course republicans won't support it, as they've been implimenting a scorched Earth policy as far as Obama is concerned. Truth is, it's such a huge corporate bill, they're cutting their noses off to spite their faces, since normally republicans would end up supporting the bill, maybe even writing it. But, we get it, Obama-bad, does not matter what he does, it's bad, we don't support it, they say.

Finally, I say it should fail, and don't dismay. It'll mean ever more people who depend on the ER foir their medical care, an ever larger problem, and the eventual likelihood of single-payer, which would trash the old system, rather than try to patch it up. So it'll take a while longer, but if managed right, they should be able to get ever more progressives.

[cali]

2. Let's just see what it looks like when it emerges from conference.

[Norquist Nemesis]

116. That's kind of the problem that we face though...

We just sit back and wait to see if they'll do what we want instead of keeping active and making them do it. We're "hoping" and having faith it's all going to be to our liking once it's out of Conference.

I wish my faith had not been so beaten and brutalized throughout this "debate". First, it was EFCA. Then, it was DADT. Then Iraq. Then the Big Banks giveaway bad deal. All on the faith and hope of "Healthcare Reform". I didn't mind so much that my smokes put me in the unique class of SCHIP funding, but it doesn't look like I'll be getting a discount on that anytime soon with this new fangled, back-slapping, "historic" *cough* reform.

[patrice]

3. K + R I am glad to at least be "on the yellow-brick road".

[dtotire]

15. A Good Start

I think getting it through the Senate could be tougher.

[SergeStorms]

117. Exactly..........

All of the DU hue and cry will be moot. The Senate will not pass this.

My opinion: The bill, as it's written, sucks balls. It's a complete failure for any meaningful health care reform. But it won't matter because the Senate isn't going to pass it anyway. :shrug:

Once again the Democrats are going to come away from this looking like ineffectual weaklings. I wish it weren't so, but it looks to me like that's going to be the case. :banghead:

[goclark]

77. I'd rather be on the yellow brick road than be a Bagger

anyday.

:bounce:

[pattmarty]

134. Yeah, piss yellow. This bill is shit. Look back to 1965 when the..........

...........Dems (barely, and with great perseverance) actually passed a really "good" bill. Next to the original Medicare bill, this bill is fucking shit. The Dems bent the American people over and "we" took it in the ass. Sorry to put it quite so bluntly, but I is what I is.

[HughMoran]

4. It's better than any of us were expecting just a couple of months ago

I like it - it's a good bill overall (obviously all legislation has it's caveats.)

[pundaint]

71. If you expected so little why did you vote for them?

A few months ago, I still had some hope. Now I know there will be no health care improvement for me, fort 8 years when I'm eligible for Medicare. The difference is now I am concerned that any reasonable economic recovery will continue to be hampered by the incremental costs of adding an employee. I would say I am more fearful, and certainly disillusioned with the Change I foolishly believed in.

Another lesson confirmed: there is really nothing I personally can do to move Congress because the incumbents have been bought by the corporations, so the only reasonable thing is to fire them. I'm not in Dennis Kucinich's district so I will vote against my Rep in the primary, and if that doesn't work, I'll vote against him again in the general.

Aren't the rest of you tired of trying to move an unresponsive congress. If they got fired in 2 or 6 years if they didn't do the People's will, how long do you think it would be before they realized that selling out for campaign contributions was a bad strategy?

[quiet.american]

5. Raises hand. nt

[rucky]

6. Why does one either have to be happy about it, or oppose it?

I think a majority of us aren't happy about it, but would've voted yes, anyways.

[Aramchek]

9. how about we let the recs determine if the majority is happy or not?

I think your supposition will prove incorrect.

[rucky]

11. How do you count the ones who don't rec or unrec?

Because they don't fall in either category - like me.

Another :wtf: from rucky.

[Aramchek]

13. If the recs remain above zero, then the majority are happy

you know how this works.

[Go2Peace]

20. Oh, yes, the populist recometer will tell all ..

[Aramchek]

24. it's really very simple.

[Techn0Girl]

115. It's Really Very Simple Minded ....

to think that some poll on a website means anything at all. Let's face it - the most prolific posters on ANY website are the most socially inept - without any outside distractions like jobs, friends and family that allows them to devote all their time to ....

Pretending that recs or unrecs mean any damn thing at all.

What matters are the facts about this bill and the facts are these:

This bill provides extreme economic sanction against a woman's right to choose.

This bill will cause force class and middle class people without coverage to pay anywhere from 1.5 to 15% of their incomes to private companies like Blue Cross. Force them .

This bill will force 40 million additional citizens to become private insurance consumers.

This is what matters - NOT whether some "Democratic Teabagger" worries over whether some thread is "rec'ed " enough.

[Plucketeer]

160. I agree with you.

Rec, Unrec, WHO cares??? I'd bet there ain't ONE Senator or Rep lookin' in here. If there's any web pages they look at, they're the ones of their constituents - the health insurance companies. Those firms are the ones that the folks in the house have to be in tune with.

It would be truly grand if ALL our reps were of the same calibre as Kucinich, Weiner and Grayson. The sad fact is, it isn't so. The party of NO is in control even when it's in the throes of metamorphisis.

With CLEAR majorities of voting US citizens wanting REAL HCR, squeaking by in Congress is the same as an abysmal failure. The time and effort could've been better spent addressing other issues. I like to dream as much as anyone, but my hopes for real HCR evaporated when it was clear that Baucus was/is owned by the Health Ins. industry.

Lately I've sent back the donation envelopes without any money - writing on the donation forms that unless the Dems at least ACTED like they were working for the people, we were sending them no more funds. We're going to get whatever corporate bucks buy anyway. Why fight it? :shrug:

[rucky]

22. The way you paint the unrec side doesn't apply.

donate to DU so you can make a poll with more than two polar opposite choices.

[Aramchek]

25. this will do fine. will you be convinced that the majority are happy when this hits the Front Page?

[Go2Peace]

26. By that meter a majority are already unhappy. Opinions are more nuanced. This is a little simplistic

[JANdad]

121. And thats what you are hoping for isn't

it? "Front Page" noteriety...

[Atticus]

70. This will not do! You are showing an alarming propensity toward independent thought! nt

[CTyankee]

34. Well, I don't believe in the unrec function here at DU. I will give my opinion and take

responsibility for it, rather than click and run.

I am sad right now over the Stupak amendment and trying to reach a buddy of mine who works for Planned Parenthood. I want to hear what can/will be done. I am in favor of health care reform with a strong public option. I have favored getting a "foot in the door." But it cannot stop there. We must build on it and move toward single payer. And we MUST get the Stupak amendment out of the bill and to keep it out!

[sabrina 1]

52. I'm with you on most of your points.

The Stupak amendment is just one reason I oppose this bill. The taking out of the Kucinich Amendment is another. We leave in a Republican Amendment and take out a Progressive Amendment. And I am against Mandated Insurance.

I don't care one way or the other about the rec/unrec feature. But since this OP is asking for it to be used to show support, I am unrec'ing.

[CTyankee]

56. Thank you for explaining your opposition to various parts of the bill.

I do appreciate and respect your vote.

It's great to have this forum to debate these plans. I enjoy the debate a lot, but I think a lot of folks just don't like doing it.

Oh well. I personally think the unrec feature is pretty bad and we'll find out soon about that. Stay tuned because I think it will happen...

[goclark]

66. I'm happy about it so that's +1

Wish Sen. Kennedy had been here for that vote, :cry:

[tandot]

7. It's a start and I support it.

[silverweb]

8. I'm happy.

The bill is certainly not everything we hoped for, but it's a decent start.

The reTHUGs' worst nightmare is that once any form of public option and/or universal coverage is enacted, people will love it, will realize the potential, and will begin to clamor for more and better universal coverage, eventually leading to a single payer system. They've come right out and said as much.

This process is FAR from over.

[Turbineguy]

10. Baby steps

Baby steps.

And there are a lot of babies in the GOP.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Aramchek]

14. The Bill passed the House. We are the winners. The Sore Losers are those throwing the fits.

[vaberella]

16. I rec'd and wanted to give you a post to compliment my rec---since rec's can be downgraded.

Posts in the postive cannot be.

[Ms. Toad]

139. So can unrecs. They are functionally equivalent votes. n/t

[Bjorn Against]

17. I would be happy if they had passed real reform...

Instead people are being forced to send the insurance industry a check every month and the vast majority of them will have no option for any public plan, that is not what I consider reform.

[Aramchek]

21. millions of uninsured will get coverage

do you oppose this just because you can't save some cash with the Public Option?

[Bjorn Against]

23. Of course I don't oppose uninsured people getting coverage, I support coverage for all Americans

What I do not support however is forcing people to send checks to the insurance industry every month, that is extortion as far as I am concerned.

[Aramchek]

32. you have liability Car Insurance, don't you?

[Bjorn Against]

35. I can choose to not own a car, but I can not choose to live without a body.

[Aramchek]

38. thus, you should get insurance on it. neither car repair or medical care are free

if you drive without insurance and get in a wreck. your car doesn't get fixed. simple as that.

if you are injured and have no insurance, you are treated. how is that paid for?

if you expect Car Repair,
you should get the Insurance to cover it.
if you expect Medical Care,
you should get the Insurance to cover it.

[Bjorn Against]

41. I have health insurance, but I don't know if it will be there when I need it.

There are many others who don't have it because they can not afford it, and no matter how much the politicians try to insist otherwise they will still not be able to afford it after this legislation takes effect.

And let's not forget the insurance industry's track record of denying claims whenever they can get away with it. While this bill may address the pre-existing conditions issue, it still does not prevent the insurance industry from jacking up our rates and finding other ways to deny our claims. Our government should not be forcing people to buy into an industry that has destroyed countless lives, we needed to have a real public option and Congress failed to give the vast majority of people that option.

[Aramchek]

46. a Public Option where everyone can participate is Single payer

It has been explained again and again why Single Payer cannot happen immediately.

This Bill will do many good things. just you wait and see.

[bjobotts]

107. Soon. soon...the door has been opened but we must keep the pressure on to expand coverage.

[bjobotts]

108. It's the senate who will try to kill the public option just so it shuts the door.

[bjobotts]

109. This is what Lieberman has been called upon to do.Keep gov. involvement out of the bill

[bjobotts]

111. btw, trying to take a survery by recs is petty and trite and hardly conclusive of anything

[bjobotts]

112. Say what you gotta' say and observe the recs but don't use it to manipulate opinion

[galloglas]

176. That is not true or honest !

a Public Option where everyone can participate is Single payer is what you claim. But it is neither true or honest. And no amount of weasel-wording will make it so. In fact, to try to spin this by doing so would be a disservice to those at DU and make you seems like a "GOP TruthTeller".

:thumbsdown:

[pundaint]

73. Exactly, ignore the false options

We either get universal single payer coverage or, in my rarely humble opinion, one of these is true:
A Congress has been bribed to vote against the Public interest
B Congress is the devil
C Congress is stupid
D Congress knows there is no limit to the screwing Americans will take as long as we say "we're number 1"
E Congress wants to retire in the next election
F Congress, after hearing all the evidence, and weighing all the options, in their wisdom determined that this was the best alternative and therefore worthy of the American people.

The only one I'm sure is wrong is F, yet F is what we pay these weasels a salary to do. How long should we keep employees who manifestly work against our interests?

This is not an ambiguous issue like some, healthcare works better for the population of almost every other developed country. We could have thrown a dart at the map of Western Europe and picked a better plan than what we are offered. What could possibly have caused our leaders to have picked this approach?

[Skittles]

93. bought and paid for

that is the "cause"

[mecherosegarden]

133. K&R

It is a start!

[Prana69]

87. Don't try and reason with the OP...

.. it was tried and failed in the "Dennis Kucinich" thread. You are either "For" or "Agin". If you are "Agin" then you are not a Democrat, apparently.

[Techn0Girl]

105. We vs Them ....

A child's way of thinking.
And one that can easily be perverted to act in your own worst interests. We see that happen with Teabaggers every month. Democrats are unfortunately far from immune.

[LWolf]

18. I've never wavered.

I support single-payer.

I don't like Obama's plan and never did.

Neither do I like the current plan.

And this isn't "Obama's" plan, since he's no longer a legislator.

[demwing]

27. This is me being happy last night

This is me reading DUer comments today:

[PATRICK]

28. Happy but not delirious

It took a long time to get Social Security and Medicare to their present state. The nation without benefit of the MSM finally had their "no duh" awakening on Medicare for all. Staying behind another eight for long murderous decades is not exactly total victory nor is the best result eventually assured.

Beating up on Dems needed to keep this moving forward is dumber than the teabaggers.

[burning rain]

29. I think it's worthwhile, so I gave you a rec.

But you can't conclude from how your post works out, where opinion regarding healthcare reform lies at DU. You posted this in GD-P, after all, and GD and GD-P are largely self-segregated--the same sort of poll in GD could well get a net negative response.

[Liberation Angel]

30. I have reservations but happier now than if it had been killed altogether

Glad that something passes and many folks I trust supported it.

Of course I want single payer (like SS or medicare/medicaid) but this is a step in the right direction I hope.

[KansasVoter]

31. -1

[Blue-Jay]

33. Wouldn't a poll give you a better idea of the results?

Or did you just want to get this thread on the Greatest Page?

[Aramchek]

36. I think these results are conclusive.

I'm sure the opponents are doing their damndest to unrec it away,
but mysteriously, they are failing...

[impik]

37. Not perfect, but a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE progress

I find Dems who object the most important social legislation of the past 45 years, out of purity reasons, to be quite pathetic.

[ObamaKerryDem]

42. Well said. This is history in the making, folks! Proudly K&R'd

:kick:

[Iwillnevergiveup]

40. Something to build on, definitely

So many truths and untruths came to light as well. The Dems needed a shot in the arm, and this was it.

K&R

[noamnety]

43. Bill Clinton. NAFTA. nt

[BREMPRO]

44. needs some tweaks, but it's got the fundamentals reforms that have broad consensus

no more denials because pre-existing conditions
no more rescissions
covers 38 million uninsured who will get competitive choices including a public option and subsidies based on income
allows majority who say they are happy with their insurance coverage to keep it.
eliminates anti-trust exception for health insurance industry
comparative effectiveness research to reduce health care costs
more money to fight waste fraud and abuse in medicare
budget savings over 10 years according to CBO

I predict the abortion restriction won't make the final bill

[BREMPRO]

45. kick

[Jennicut]

48. Basic first step. And it needs to get past the Senate and the final vote too.

But we have a foot in the door to something bigger.

[cry baby]

49. k&r

[Canuckistanian]

50. Very reluctantly

Although the "public option" part was reduced to joke status, the other reforms will make a difference.

My hope is that the success stories for the very few that will benefit will spark futher changes and debunks the wild claims that "freedom" is somehow curtailed by this bill.

And an end to the hated "pre-existing condition" will go a long way to bringing people around to a more equitable solution.

[Odin2005]

51. It is a start. We will get Single Payer eventually.

[shireen]

54. sigh! i guess it's better than nothing or a Republican bill.

:shrug:


but we don't give up ... we keep fighting back.

[inna]

55. k&u. ridiculous.

[rucky]

57. Just checking in to see how the turd-polishing is coming along. n/t

[Aramchek]

64. your limited perspective will not sully this accomplishment

[Lost-in-FL]

180. 'turd-polishing'

:rofl: Great way to put it.

[CTLawGuy]

58. welcome to US government 101

change is hard, and those trying to stop it have all the power.

K&R

[donheld]

59. Yes I'm happy it passed.

No I do not think it's perfect but it's a good start.

[Avalux]

60. I'm happy it passed - still a lot of work to do, but it's a start!

And for those screaming people will be thrown in jail; read the bill before freaking out. ;)

[neuvocat]

62. Removing anti-trust exemption for health care providers

is a great start.

[TwilightGardener]

61. K&R.

[felinetta]

63. Good start. Very happy.

[Guilded Lilly]

65. It is not a signed bill...

and I am very frustrated (make that ANGRY) that to get it where it is right now that women had to become pawns AGAIN. That, I am utterly sick over. And it annoys the hell out of me that the agenda of the blue dogs has the tail wagging the dog in regard to reproductive rights.

However, it is start, a stepping stone and a message. I cannot applaud the amendment, but I can applaud the forward step, so far, that this bill has taken. So yes. I am looking forward and above all, am proud of Obama's administration, and yes, Pelosi for getting it to this point.

[groundloop]

67. It's a start. A start that would have never happened under a repug administration

I want to see single payer, but the house bill is a huge step in the right direction warts and all.

[HughMoran]

68. 90 unrecs

People here are beyond pitiful at times when they get in a vengeful mood. :cry: I feel like we're doomed as a nation if DU can't find it's moral center.

[katandmoon]

72. It's the health/bank industry loving Dems like Obama who have no moral center.

[Aramchek]

78. yet still at the top of the homepage. there are more of us than there are of them

that's why we are winning.

[HughMoran]

81. But why would anybody vengefully unrec a post about something better than expected

...just a short time ago when the public option was still an open question.

[Aramchek]

84. spite. they have invested themselves in opposition and find it hard to give up

[HughMoran]

86. They split DU in two over this

I had no choice - either leave a site that's been a sanctuary for me for years of Bush's madness, or block the people who are so inflexible that they would just as soon destroy the Democratic party than learn to compromise. I added nearly 100 people to my ignore list since last night. Funny thing? I feel very good about it. Without an audience, they are nothing...

[Prana69]

89. Your self-imposed exile must be blissful.

Nothing like blocking one's ears to those with whom one disagrees.

Your choice of course, but I'd rather be hearing both sides of the discussion. To make considered judgments. You know?

Nah, back to your island.

Hey look at that! You're right again!

[HughMoran]

91. I've been reading their tripe for many years

I can still read much of their garbage on the other sites many post at where they bash DU and Duers in their cowardly little sanctuaries. I know these people. I'm missing NOTHING significant in my life not listening to people who are incapable of compassion. If you don't have compassion, you're NOT a liberal or progressive or Democrat. These people are hardcore haters with no hearts. No, I'm not missing a one of them.

[Techn0Girl]

110. Same here....

I have at least 150+ in there now.

I don't mind a legitimate disagreement on this issue - in fact I welcome it. I could always be wrong - I need different point of view.

Unfortunately we have a multitude of what I am calling "Democratic Teabaggeers" who are yelling and screaming like children and have a childish Us vs Them mentality. The can't be reasoned with, talked to and you can;t have a legitimate debate about the issue. You try and you are demonized . It;s like talking to a six year old.

So I've put such people in my ignore list as well. I have no time for teabaggers.

[bjobotts]

104. We have an unrec troll who does it every night to every item on DU so I rec them all afterward

[Kaleva]

69. A first step. Rec'd

[SandWalker1984]

74. Mandates to buy private insurance but no regulation of premiums they charge me

A bad bill is not a good start, it is a bad bill you are trying to put lipstick on.

Mandates to buy private insurance without any sort of regulation of premiums or caps on premiums will lead to many people who are currently without insurance, and even some with, ending up in the uninsured category and paying a fine instead.

If my family, buying insurance in the market as I am self employed, could afford to pay $17,800 a year for insurance coverage, don't you think I would have it?

How long do you think it will take (probably next election cycle or two) before Republicans gain control and take out most or all of the subsidies to help people buy that mandated private insurance?

Have you looked at the 1900+ pages at all or are you just spewing bullet points given out by Pelosi? Have you read at all about the mental health provisions that appear to have been written directly by big pharma? Have you?

The more time I spend trying to decode the legislation, the more I find to dislike.

This bill is more about giving handouts to the insurance industry than it is about getting health care/insurance costs under control for most Americans.

Considering the Senate bill will be substantially more pro-corporation due to the nature of the Senate, my concerns have grown large as my expectations have been crushed under the weight of the realization that, with few exceptions, most of Congress now sits in the pockets of big industry, big corporations and Wall Street and any legislation they pass is going to be more for them than it is for us.

I refuse to play Polly Anna for those on this thread and yes, I am a long time Democrat that feels my party has lost it's values to become the DLC (Dems Loving Corporations).

[Mimosa]

80. ^ITA with 74]^ n/t

[newspeak]

183. I'm with you

If they think the Senate is going to further reform this bill, I got a bridge to sell ya. Maybe further reform it for the health industry. We'll see. But they're giving the insurance cartel even more power, so how is that going to be a step towards a strong public option or even single payer?

Some keep arguing that more in the industry pool, will bring down premiums. Yeah, how's that working for auto insurance? They're going to be competitive, that's like a store owner in vegas who brought his gas prices way down from his competition and was told by the main corporation to bring them up--he refused-he lost his franchise. Because big corporations don't go into price fixing (uh-uh). They're all about the competition.

I am against this bill as written--we'll see the final draft after the senate gets a hold of it.

Oh, speaking about auto insurance--California did attempt to pass a law (knowing they were forcing people into buying from private corp) that a tax would be added to the pump, where every driver would by minimally covered-they did it for the working poor. The insurance industry spent millions to defeat it.

[PatrynXX]

75. the retaliation for pearl harbor wasn't ideal, but it was a start... n/t

[ind_thinker2]

76. good start and hopefully abortion amendment is out later

[katandmoon]

79. The abortion amendment will NEVER be taken out,

[Daemonaquila]

82. Unrec'd. It's a lousy bill with a snowball's chance.

Let's see... the abortion coverage problem, no single payor, LIEberman is planning a filibuster... It's a joke.
I'm so tired of the damned rah-rah over the illusion of accomplishment. Thanks, I'll save my recs for an actual victory, not drinking the Gore/Kerry kool-aid.

[rhett o rick]

83. Sorry cant get excited about the HOR passing by 3 votes a weak bill that will only get weaker in the

Senate. Ask me when we get a bill passed and signed.

[hulka38]

85. If by Health Care Reform you mean Health Care Reform then there's a problem with

the premise of your survey.

[Bette Noir]

88. Bottom line:

Under the current system, my husband can't possibly retire before we're both eligible for Medicare. Since I'm a little younger than he is, that'd mean he'd have to work until he's 68, no matter what. Even if we won the lottery, even if I wrote a best seller or 6, even if we discovered a platinum mine on our property, he'd have to keep working, because we're both obese, arthritic, and at high risk of diabetes. No amount of money can buy us health care, under the current system, and no amount of money can protect against impoverishment by disease or injury, either.

With pre-existing condition exclusions outlawed, we have a chance of getting on with our lives, maybe moving to a small town and starting up a business. Until then, he's enslaved to the employer who supplies his group coverage. No, I can't cover-- I was out of work when I became totally disabled, and have fallen through the cracks.

[jefferson_dem]

124. Thank you so much for sharing.

Yours is a story that's shared by many, many other Americans. Lives will be improved, in a real way, once reforms are passed.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

90. Healthcare reform has to go through

[Mithreal]

94. Mixed, for those it helps, kick

[seattle_blue]

95. very happy

pleased as peaches--it was a nail biter the entire day...

[d_b]

96. Negs

Bill is a corporate wet dream. no thanks.

[mackerel]

97. I see it as a way forward, seriously didn't think we'd get this far.

[d_b]

98. maybe it's a way forward

maybe not.

we could have a good bill NOW if the dems in congress wanted one...but i suppose that only works for war and tax cuts for the rich.

[Techn0Girl]

99. IF YOU'RE HAPPY AND YOU KNOW IT CLAP YOUR HANDS !!

It was a great song .... when we were five.

Unfortunately some people - far too many people never evolve beyond that mentality.
Yeah - we won!
We rule!
We're the best!

5 year olds think that way.
And knowing that so many "adults" never progress much beyond such a mentality, the true movers and shakers of society use it to keep the masses clapping their hands while they get rich and profit off of our hard work.

It's that kind of manipulation that keeps poor Southern Republicans without insurance or unemployment out there waving their teabags protesting against the very things they need for a happier and healthier life. And it's the very same mentality that keeps Democrats clapping their hands over this disaster of a bill.

This bill is, in it's current form , a huge give-away to Big Pharma and the health care industry. It will take away from 2.5% to 15% of all middle class income and force it to be given to Insurance companies like Blue Cross. It will remove a poor woman's ability to choose what to do with her body through extreme financial penalty .

You can read the House Ways and Means summary of the bill right here:

http://www.politico.com/static/PPM41_hcr_complete_summary.html

Here's an example of what it does. A person making a bare subsistence wage of 24,000 a year will be forced to pay an additional 2000 dollars (that's WITH the "subsidy") to a private insurance company. He will be forced to pay that for a policy that won't pay out a dime until he pays an additional 2000 dollars in deductible. If he chooses not to pay for the crap policy than the Federal government will take away 2.5% of his income - and put it into the insurance pool anyway.

You can read about it tin the link - its all there on page two in the table.

Now clap your hands boys and girls with everyone - aren't you happy now - you won!

[AntiFascist]

106. Have no doubts it will pass the Senate?

I've heard that there's no chance it (public option) will pass the Senate...but that was from LIEberman.

[zoff]

113. Two schools of thought ...

1. A bad start will eventually lead to a really bad bill, so status quo is temporarily better. Single-payer got compromised at the get-go so we got taken for a ride. Some say Kucinich ignored the needs of the 2-6 million or so who can be covered. He could also have fought for 40 million or so that were NOT covered. Start from scratch and include single-payer advocates. Leaving them out stands in the way of progress. We need more like Kucinich.
2. The bill in its current form can still be modified. Baby steps is how Washington works. Idealism stands in the way of progress. Kick out Kucinich.

But the bill has passed the house, so the question is: will this bill ever see the light of not-for-profit single-payer health care?

Just like politics, nothing is black or white, so to answer the OP, I am apprehensively happy. But Kucinich must stay; we just need a different front man.

[IrateCitizen]

119. Unrec for another meaningless, cheerleading thread (nt)

[Tarheel_Dem]

122. K&R.....

[Aramchek]

168. not meaningless. in fact, it proves the exact point I intended

the sadsack, naysayers are in the minority of the Democratic Party.

most of us are happy with this progress.

[DailyGrind51]

123. It's got to be better than what the Senate has in mind!

[rox63]

125. K&R - It's far from perfect, but it's progress

Half a loaf is better than none.

[timzi]

131. And Half A Crumb?

[gordianot]

126. Considering the toxic times we live it will do.

[DCBob]

127. Wow +208!! You would never know it from reading the most of the posts on DU lately.

Silent majority, I presume.

[timzi]

128. LOL - Nixon's Old "Silent Majority" -

I guess that makes Dennis Kucinich a "nattering nabob of negativism". I oppose this bill for the same reasons that DK voted against it.

Congressman Dennis Kucinich after voting against H.R. 3962 addresses why he voted NO, stating:

"We have been led to believe that we must make our health care choices only within the current structure of a predatory, for-profit insurance system which makes money not providing health care. We cannot fault the insurance companies for being what they are. But we can fault legislation in which the government incentivizes the perpetuation, indeed the strengthening, of the for-profit health insurance industry, the very source of the problem. When health insurance companies deny care or raise premiums, co-pays and deductibles they are simply trying to make a profit. That is our system."

"Clearly, the insurance companies are the problem, not the solution. They are driving up the cost of health care. Because their massive bureaucracy avoids paying bills so effectively, they force hospitals and doctors to hire their own bureaucracy to fight the insurance companies to avoid getting stuck with an unfair share of the bills. The result is that since 1970, the number of physicians has increased by less than 200% while the number of administrators has increased by 3000%. It is no wonder that 31 cents of every health care dollar goes to administrative costs, not toward providing care. Even those with insurance are at risk. The single biggest cause of bankruptcies in the U.S. is health insurance policies that do not cover you when you get sick."

"But instead of working toward the elimination of for-profit insurance, H.R. 3962 would put the government in the role of accelerating the privatization of health care. In H.R. 3962, the government is requiring at least 21 million Americans to buy private health insurance from the very industry that causes costs to be so high, which will result in at least $70 billion in new annual revenue, much of which is coming from taxpayers. This inevitably will lead to even more costs, more subsidies, and higher profits for insurance companies - a bailout under a blue cross."

"By incurring only a new requirement to cover pre-existing conditions, a weakened public option, and a few other important but limited concessions, the health insurance companies are getting quite a deal. The Center for American Progress' blog, Think Progress, states, 'since the President signaled that he is backing away from the public option, health insurance stocks have been on the rise.' Similarly, healthcare stocks rallied when Senator Max Baucus introduced a bill without a public option. Bloomberg reports that Curtis Lane, a prominent health industry investor, predicted a few weeks ago that 'money will start flowing in again' to health insurance stocks after passage of the legislation. Investors.com last month reported that pharmacy benefit managers share prices are hitting all-time highs, with the only industry worry that the Administration would reverse its decision not to negotiate Medicare Part D drug prices, leaving in place a Bush Administration policy."

"During the debate, when the interests of insurance companies would have been effectively challenged, that challenge was turned back. The 'robust public option' which would have offered a modicum of competition to a monopolistic industry was whittled down from an initial potential enrollment of 129 million Americans to 6 million. An amendment which would have protected the rights of states to pursue single-payer health care was stripped from the bill at the request of the Administration. Looking ahead, we cringe at the prospect of even greater favors for insurance companies."

"Recent rises in unemployment indicate a widening separation between the finance economy and the real economy. The finance economy considers the health of Wall Street, rising corporate profits, and banks' hoarding of cash, much of it from taxpayers, as sign of an economic recovery. However in the real economy - in which most Americans live - the recession is not over. Rising unemployment, business failures, bankruptcies and foreclosures are still hammering Main Street."

"This health care bill continues the redistribution of wealth to Wall Street at the expense of America's manufacturing and service economies which suffer from costs other countries do not have to bear, especially the cost of health care. America continues to stand out among all industrialized nations for its privatized health care system. As a result, we are less competitive in steel, automotive, aerospace and shipping while other countries subsidize their exports in these areas through socializing the cost of health care."

"Notwithstanding the fate of H.R. 3962, America will someday come to recognize the broad social and economic benefits of a not-for-profit, single-payer health care system, which is good for the American people and good for America's businesses, with of course the notable exceptions being insurance and pharmaceuticals."

[rgbecker]

129. Status Quo! Status Quo! Status Quo! USA! USA ! USA! USA!

:sarcasm

[Aramchek]

169. if you think this Bill is the Status Quo, you must have the IQ of a Teabagger

[Life Long Dem]

130. Yeah some of us continue to battle

I support the President.

[TomClash]

132. It's better than nothing

But it is nowhere near ideal. Reluctantly rec.

[RoadRage]

135. K&R

It's far better then nothing!

[Orsino]

136. It's early days yet...

...but I'm glad the House could pass something with a few attractive features. Let's hope the good is not diluted much further when combined with a prospective Senate bill.

[GeorgeGist]

137. Rahm Emmanuel couldn't have said it better.

[dionysus]

138. not as good as it could have been, but a good place to build from.

[unblock]

140. happy. could be MUCH happier, but optimistic that time will work in my favor.

i think people miss the big picture. the mere fact that health insurance got a so-called "major overhaul", regardless of what's in it, means that it will be FAR easier to "tinker" with it a few years down the road.

that still won't mean we get everything, but just removing the taboo against change, the taboo against even bringing the topic up, that's been in place since hillary got slammed down, that's huge.

[MNDemNY]

141. I'm happy "something " passd. It is a shit bill...

and I will continue to bitch about it in an effort to wake the people up to the fact that the only way to curb costs in any meaningful way is to ge t single payer. So, as usual, I hold my nose and support the lesser of two evils.

[EndElectoral]

143. It's a shit bill. Obama will be blamed. Just as he's being blamed for the Bush economic disaster.

[MNDemNY]

145. That is the nature of the beast.

[uponit7771]

154. Not if Obama keeps pointing at reThug policies that got us the econ disaster

[Aramchek]

171. what a soured mental state you live with. hope things get better for you.

[MNDemNY]

188. That from someone in la-la-land?

:rofl:

[TZ]

142. For those like me with a pre-existing condition

ANYTHING is better than the status quo (though fortunately since I still can work, I have halfway decent insurance but if I lose my job...)
I'm tired of fighting with the insurance company...I want my doctor to be my doctor not have to spend his valuable time fighting with the insurance company penny pinchers (and I'm treated by Mayo clinic)

[rapturedbyrobots]

144. I support

any bill that helps people avoid going bankrupt because they need health care. however, i do not support ANYONE calling this bill health CARE reform. it is a health INSURANCE bill. that's it. it does nothing to guarantee anyone will actually receive health care. the insurance companies practices of maximizing profit by DENYING care are very much intact...and in fact the mandate for coverage guarantees that they will have a bigger (now captive) market to screw over. and the ones they don't want they toss to the defunct 'public option' that is too weak to succeed (and will likely be managed by the insurance companies themselves...how convenient). so tell me again...do you support health CARE reform? or is this enough?

[Turborama]

146. 247 recs and top of the list on DU's home page, but not on the greatest page any more

:shrug:

[Turborama]

147. 390 recs in total, according to the top ten page

So, that's 143 unrecs V 390 recs as it stands right now.

[supernova]

148. Rec - I consider it a down payment

Is it everything we need? No, but it's a start. it will take several acts to get what we need.

BUT, now the die is case, we are on that road and the Repukes will not be able to put that particular genie back in its bottle.

[AllyCat]

149. I would be happy had they passed health care reform. This ain't even close

[tiredtoo]

150. My thoughts on this are....

While not exactly what I wanted, this is a step in the right direction. Must keep the pressure on to keep this on track.

[barbtries]

151. now i want to see the senate do the same

doesn't have to be the same exact bill, hopefully something better. but it must have a public option at the very least.

[Sienna86]

152. It's a start....

I am optimistic that the final version will include a healthy public option.

[Iggo]

153. Auto-Unrec for 'rec this thread' thread.

This is one of the main reasons we even have rec/unrec.

:patriot:

[peacetalksforall]

155. It's a lot of smoke, a lot of mirrors and you don't address Stupak in your

unofficial tally. I'm not clicking.

I think we are seeing a pro-and anti DLC outcome here.

[LibDemAlways]

156. You're living in a dreamworld. If Obama signs a bill

with a mandate, you're going to see the Dems go down in flames next year. And unless something happens to improve the employment picture, Obama is going to be looking for another job in 2012.

[grahamhgreen]

158. +1

[chill_wind]

161. +10. Somebody who gets it.

eom

[Aramchek]

172. you are wrong and will be proven thus

[Riverman]

185. Yeap! Which will lead to a far more right-winger than Bush!

[grahamhgreen]

157. Reluctantly I must unrec. The bill I could rec would have a state single payer amendment, and or a

stronger public option.

This bill, combined witht he bank bailout, may be the end of the short-lived dem majority....

[Ganja Ninja]

159. Recommended but not wholeheartedly.

Something is better than nothing when people are dying while we wait.

[lobodons]

162. If only we got a watered down bill in 94

Just think were we would be today if we were able to get a weak watered down bill back in 94. So we get this weak watered down bill today, and then by 2024 we may be on the way to a single payer system rather than starting from fresh hoping to get at least a watered down bill wondering where we'd be if only we had gotten a weak watered down version of a bill way back in 09.

[inna]

165. actually, this is a good point.

let's look at the positives...

[ProudDad]

164. Exactly what one can expect

from the near-right wing of the big business corporate party...

The confused, scared, timid, facts challenged, corporate funded democrats with their utter lack of interest in anything but their re-election chances and how to pitch their "message" to the loudest of their corporate constituents...

Able to completely ignore the wishes of the large majority of USAmerican People...

To protect their rare corporate funded pResident...

Have scored a coup...

And destroyed any chance of meaningful HEALTH CARE reform for another generation...

While they cheerfully and with great show of "patriotism" and jingoist fervor pass another fucking military supplemental for Obama's wars...

God Damn the USAmerikan Empire!

[kestrel91316]

166. Far from the ideal solution to the problem, at least it's a step in the right direction.

I love the ban on exclusion due to preexisting conditions, and the equality in pricing for women. I am of course not happy that ALL women's health care is not covered. Perhaps we need to push for exclusion of Viagra and ED from coverage.

[benld74]

167. The smallest step begins the longest journey,,,

[bdamomma]

170. its not perfect but it's a start.

[earcandle]

173. I am with Kucinich and Bullis

[Aramchek]

175. 446 Recs, 162 Unrecs... So around 75% of DU supports the Bill

This thread has proven my point.

Though the naysayers are really loud and post many more threads than the rest of us,
they represent far less than a majority.

3/4 of us are Happy with the progress so far.
That says alot!

[chill_wind]

182. The longest nose-holding thread in recent DU history- it's that much at least.

A lot of us CAN read the tepid expressions of support for what they are: Tepid.

But going by your own much simpler metrics of simpler rec counting, I wonder then what we should make of this thread of debbierlus that closed yesterday? (245 recs).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6952546

I think DU is a little more nuanced and more closely divided on this as a whole than you wish it was.

[Aramchek]

187. you just can't face the facts, can you? most of us support this Bill, and you can't stand it.

[Techn0Girl]

190. I agree

Most of the people who have nothing better than to do with their time than "rec" a thread on an internet site do indeed appear to like this bill.

This impresses me about as much as 20,000 bussed in teabaggers marching on Washington.

The real movers and shakers on both sides of this issue are laughig at people like yourself.

[Fire1]

177. K&R.

[onehandle]

178. Gotta start somewhere. nt

[Lost-in-FL]

179. Unrec.

This is another baillout for big pharma/med insurance and also an attempt by religious institutions to impose and control the population. We are suckers if we allow this. A better bill can be written so I don't see why people here obscess about passing any POS that the blue dogs are ok with.

[april]

181. not happy but it is a start..I am sure the insurance co are smiling big bucks !

[Riverman]

184. Hell No! I am with Kucinich. Obama + Dems handed over

millions to the insurance corporation blood suckers! There is no real public option, pre-existing conditions does not kick in for four years (maybe too late for my son with a genetic disease)and does nothing to stop the raising cost of health insurance premiums. My employer-based plan just went up 30% starting Nov 1st, after it went up 30% last yr! What is to stop the insurance vultures of raising rates every year now that virtually everyone will be forced to go to them for insurance policies. Those predators will argue now since they have to cover pre-existing conditions they must raise rates pitting those who are not yet deemed to have a pre-existing condition against those through no fault of their own born with a genetic disease, or got pregnant or took AIDS prevention drugs, or had a body who was normally underwieght or overweight, etc. Now with the Taliban-like anti-choice (abortion) provision, under the advise of the Catholic bishop, we are reversing years of progress for reproductive rights.

I don't think I have been more disgusted with the democrats and now with Obama. This is not change that I can believe in!

[quiller4]

186. I'd add my recommend if I could.To say that I'm supportive is gross understatement