Giving up what's good for the sake of perfect and losing both is unwise

[uponit7771]

I think it's fair to say we get 75% of what we wanted out of the house bill no?

TIA

[greenman3610]

1. yes. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

google:
Ralph Nader, 2000

[GreenArrow]

13. the bad is also the enemy of the good

This bill is BAD.

[Birthmark]

2. That assumes you've gotten something good.

If you haven't, then you've really got nothing anyway.

[uponit7771]

3. At this point adequate will suffice...

[Birthmark]

4. Well, if you find any, let me know. Thx. nt

[still_one]

5. I agree, at a minimum it will give us a base to work with for the future. However,

because of people like lieberman and others, and unless Obama starts playing LBJ, I doubt very much we will even get a bill out of the Senate

I am unfortuately prepared for nothing happening.

If Obama doesn't realize by now there is no such thing as bipartisanship with this group, and start playing hard ball, it is not only over for healthcare, it is over for the Democratic party

[uponit7771]

6. My expectations were too high when it came to the stupid 60 vote thing, I listened to the M$M & was

...duped into thinking Obama had it easy and he didn't.

FDR had a 70-80% congress when he was in office, he rammed through so much legislation that some of it had to go to the USSC and be overturned.

Obama has done more than Carter IMHO and has had less to work with.

I agree on your senate point, we've won a good sized battle but got a lot of war ahead of us even after the bill is passed.

[Skittles]

7. I'd settle for even adequate

75%? uh, no

[MadHound]

8. Trouble is, we're not getting something good, or even adequate,

We're handing the insurance industry a mandated monopoly, with no price controls and no true public option. Ten years from now prices will be outrageous. Meanwhile we've thrown women's right to choose under the bus. This is a POS, and it should be rejected.

[jefferson_dem]

9. True that.

When the final bill is approved of - following the Conference - I expect all hell to break out here. We'll see plenty of "I'm done with the Democratic Party" and "This isn't change I can believe in" posts. That's ok. Let 'em vent. I will be celebrating the most sweeping health care reform in a generation +.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. I challenge anyone who disagrees with this OP to list the 218 reps and 60 senators....

that would support "the perfect."

[Oregone]

12. Support "the perfect" today, or support it in a hypothetical that it was even on the table to start?

Maybe "the perfect" would of been accompanied by a perfect cohesive PR campaign, guided by clear strong central leadership that sold the concept, without apprehension, to the masses at large.

If it were to be considered even, there would be a different world to begin with. If it were actually being pushed, perhaps there would be a true liberal leadership pushing with all their hearts and soul (because its actually something they believed in).

I'm not sure its entirely fair to "challenge" people, but set the terms in which they are supposed to answer. The reality is that no one knows what could have been accomplished with the proper leadership and campaigning. A lot of frustration may have come from the absence of even trying this, and settling to start. It is truly an unknown of how many would of supported some type of European style UHC, if it were on the table and executed properly.

Ill tell you...about 18 months ago, the majority of the population would never think there could exist a campaign to stir the masses and elect an African American Freshman Senator to become the POTUS. Obama executed an amazing campaign, defying so much of what people thought was common political sense. The man could, figuratively, move mountains with words and ideas. And now, while your political and pragmatic common sense tells you where the bounds are set in this world, Id merely suggest that there are some people and some ideas that can literally change the world.

Its an unfair, unanswerable question if you step out of the very context that many people disagree with the Democrats creating in the first place (to sell this specific reform)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

17. But THIS is having a hard time passing because it "goes too far"

No PR in the world would improve your odds.

[Oregone]

20. No PR in the world would allow an African American Freshman Senator to become the POTUS

Especially running against a political dynasty and a former vice presidential running mate.....






Or so they said. You can limit yourself to the current political environment, or you can realize that bold words and bold leaders can drastically remake an environment from scratch, *if they choose to do so*.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

24. You act as if those things happen every day.

They don't. So unless you want to wait another generation to get this done, I suggest you pull your head out of the clouds.

[Oregone]

11. We sure needed yet another thread on this cliched topic

[Clio the Leo]

15. Just like we needed another thread mocking the legislation? NT

[uponit7771]

16. I'd say 10 daily reminders at the least, it's human nature to focus on trees vs the forest

[OnionPatch]

14. Yep. I agree.

If we were to settle for no less than EVERYTHING we want in a health bill, there would be no health bill at all. I don't understand how people can't see that we are barely a majority, just barely! In some respects, we are not a majority at all. Until we convince more people to think like a progressive and vote that way, this kind of bill is the most we can get and that's just the cold, hard truth. Our progressives can rant and rail on the floor of congress but it won't do squat without a true progressive majority within the constituency. Blue dogs are blue dogs because they are trying to please the majority of their constituents. Sad to say, some blue areas would seem red to those of us in true progressive areas. You can try to chase the blue dogs out, but you may end up with a Republican instead in those areas. The only hope is to change the minds of their constituents so it's reflected in the voting booth.

So, I'm glad that we are making some steps in the right direction for once. If we had a GOP president, we'd be making steps in the wrong direction right now. Just think about what the McCain health plan would be.

We've got to keep working to change public opinion. That's the only way.

[FrenchieCat]

18. With the media deeply entrenched and prepared to work against us,

our working to change public opinion is a daily struggle,
and considering the pessimism that I find around these parts,
the media wins every day.

That's part of the problems,
those who naysay everything as it happens;
as it allows the media to magnify whatever gripes they
perceive from the grassroots.

After all their entire agenda
is keeping us less then enthused about anything and everything,
and in particular about this bill; something their overlords
would prefer doesn't ever see the light of day.

They feed us our defeatism in real time.

Many of us eat it, swallow and ask for more.

It's difficult swaying public opinion under these circumstances.
In fact, it is nearly impossible.

Saddest part of it is that some want the bill to fail,
and they have joined ranks with the media,
and provides exactly what the media needs
and they do it daily, early and often.

[ShortnFiery]

19. MANDATORY contributions to an already bloated Insurance System with Grandfather Clauses

We're all being punked, but unlike you, DK and I are NOT falling for it. :grr:

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

22. I heard this same argument just prior to passage of Iraq War Resolution

Bush, Gephardt, et al, at Rose Garden, October 2, 2002:

[Dr Robert]

23. so now Healthcare = War? I'm glad I don't live in your head.