Bottom line - Pelosi allowed the healthcare debate to be highjacked & become an abortion debate

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

That is what she did by allowing the Stupak amendment. She did not have the guts to not pander to her group of blue dogs on this issue and apparently this was also key to getting the one Republican vote. And once again, it's the Progressives who are told to be good soldiers and let their bratty demanding DINO cohorts get their way yet again.

This has turned healthcare reform into a defacto referendum on abortion and will energize and turn-out the Republican base like nothing else could have done if the Stupak amendment is removed. It's now an offical no-win. It's hard to see how this could have been botched up more at the eleventh hour.

Edit - it's key to remember that she did not have to allow any floor amendments. (I think - please feel free as always to correct me if I am wrong)

[Skip Intro]

1. Perhaps she did what had to be done to get the bill passed.

Perhaps the bill would have failed to pass otherwise.

:shrug:

[The Magistrate]

3. You Are Probably Right, Sir

But this abomination cannot be allowed to remain in the final Bill....

[Jennicut]

5. I think she did try everything.

I hate the amendment but these blue dogs essentially held the bill hostage, why not direct the anger at them? From all accounts, Pelosi tried all compromises and none of them worked.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

7. I think it was a bluff and she blinked. I think most of those Blue Dogs

look at the same surveys and poll that we cite week after week that shows Americans WANT reform. They could go ahead and vote against it and KNOW that they would be primaried or challenged in the next election.

[RoadRage]

9. America as a WHOLE? Yes...

but not neccessarily the American's in their specific districts. I have a very blue dog Senator (Nelson) in my state.. that guy walks the thinnest line imaginable just to keep his job. If he votes For Healthcare.. he probably won't get re-elected.. not enough Dem's in the state. Right now he has his job because Republicans cross over and vote for him... but that could always change.

I think we all live in a bubble where we expect these politicians to vote on things that we like.. but we forget that there are millions of people who elect them - and they have to represent everyone. I disagree with those opposed to this bill, but I still think they are entitled to their opinions.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

11. You know, on This Week yesterday, even the staunch Republican

blowhards like Cokie Roberts were saying that if healthcare passed, most Americans would like it and be grateful for it, Republican voters as well as Democrats and it would be the death knell of the Republican party for years to come.

[vaberella]

30. You'd sincerely risk it, even if it was a bluff?

You'd risk 38 million lives b/c you believe it's a bluff? Then I don't know what to tell you. I'm happy that Pelosi doesn't think like you, or we'd have some serious problems, seriously. These people have voted against the American people in the past. YOu think they wouldn't do it again? You'd risk all of that on what you THINK might be a bluff?! Shit, man. I'm done with this then.

[uponit7771]

10. I don't think the aweful anti abortion crap will bein the final bill

[Better Believe It]

12. She should get credit for getting an anti-abortion and anti-womens rights bill passed.

Or should I say blame?

[depakid]

2. She sure did

Once again- the Democrats manage to wring defeat out of victory by pandering to right.

[dflprincess]

4. As angry as I am about Stupak, I'm even angrier that Pelosi

removed the amendment that would have allowed states to pursue their own single payer programs out of the bill.

At least if that had been left in, there would have been glimmers of hope for eventual reform in some parts of the country.

[TheKentuckian]

6. I think it should be clear Pelosi did as much as she could and still pass anything

Sure, she could have stood up to the theocratdogs but not withour scuttling the bill.

[John Q. Citizen]

8. My bet is she didn't have the votes to pas the bill. So she had to allow the amendment in return

for the votes to pass the bill.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the progressives would ever stand up and demand a progressive bill, or no deal.

My guess is the White House doesn't really want a PO.

[vaberella]

16. Pelosi didn't have the votes. Link below. As for WH---that's crock.

Obama has talked ad nauseum about the PO and he brought it up. Don't you think he'd know he'd have to deliver if it was going to be popular. I'm surprised you're pushing that crap. Over and over and at townhalls he brought up the PO and you're saying he's not interested. Obviously that's wrong.


Link below to the story of what they did to Pelosi.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8744857

[John Q. Citizen]

24. So he is going to veto the bill if it doesn't have a PO? Nope. You know, you can

believe what you want to.

Back in February of this year, Baucus said the PO was a bargaining chip. Baucus was correct.

The people I know who organized on the PO for SEIU told me privately last summer that the PO is no big deal.

Rahm said the only criteria is passing a bill. Obama said the PO isn't really all that important.

Sorry to be the one to break it to you. The PO is and always was expendable. In fact, it was always meant to be a bargaining chip, at most.

[vaberella]

25. Yes he will veto a bill without a PO. Link below:

Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans - including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest - and choose what's best for your family.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/obama-demands-the-bill-i-sign-must-include-public-option.php

[John Q. Citizen]

38. He will veto a bill without a PO, just like he will filibuster FISA

You can take it to the bank.

[vaberella]

40. Get me the quote....I got you the one on the PO. Where is the one on FISA?

If I remember correctly he said he would not filibuster FISA, but he wouldn't STOP a filibuster on FISA if there was one.

[vaberella]

13. Phoebe she wouldn't have had the votes. 41 members wrote a letter threatening her.

41 members said they wouldnt' vote if it wasn't there. Add Kucinich and it's 42 (being one who just voted against the bill cause he felt like it), and if you add Cao that's 43.

If we have 258 Reps out here...minus 43---we'd have 215---the bill would never have passed. It would have failed and this whole thing would have failed. What do you want?!

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

17. And in the process, she did what my OP said - now we have an abortion debate

The role of Stupak will be to effectively deny woman the choice to have an abortion, a legal procedure in this country at this time. All the people who talk about government getting between you and your doctor certainly have a valid point now, even if they didn't before, courtesy of Nancy Pelosi.

This is also instructive as to how people excuse bills or amendments that are reprehensible on their face by attempting to focus on their scope - oh, it will just affect a small number of people,etc.- JUST AS THEY DID WITH THE HYDE AMENDMENT. What happens is that the its-so-small-let's-just-ignore-it-and-get-on-with-it compromise becomes the building block for the next inevitable hideous step expanding on what's already been allowed to slip through

[vaberella]

23. An abortion debate that could be stripped while in Conference.

We wouldn't have a bill. That means millions of PEOPLE wouldn't get some sort of coverage. Yes we have an abortion debate but it doesnt stop women from getting abortions---just the funding. I'm not liking it, but it's that or an entire bill. And then if the bill didn't go throug we have election year next year. Do you know what that means when this isn't around? Dems probably get killed and then you have NOTHING. And then repubs could snuff women's rights some more.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

22. Great. Nice to know threatening letters to the Speaker work so well.

From our own Party no less. On the issue that matters the most in an actual life and death way to all Americans. On our President's signature issue that will determine not only his fate but the fate of the Party in the future.

Call these bastards out! Why would anyone knuckle under to them? She should have called their bluff. All hell would have broken out from all other Democrats as well as their own constituents.

[vaberella]

26. Pelosi did what she must for the American people.

I agree these 41 members need to be called out big time. I said as much in the thread.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

39. Since they did get the amendment - did all 41 in fact vote for the bill?

Somehow I don't think the numbers are adding up the way that they should.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

44. Delete - fact checking.

[jenmito]

14. She allowed for the amendment to be voted on in order to get the bill passed. She succeeded.

And most likely it will be stripped out in Conference.

[Freddie Stubbs]

15. It was either that or let the bill die

[FrenchieCat]

18. and letting the bill die, meant certain death of the Democratic Party....

That's why Health care has been so hard to pass,
now and in the past.

It's a no win based on the nature of the bill, period....
now we have our answer as to why nothing much has been done
in all of the years that health care reform has been
part of the Democratic platform.

The GOP and the media are loving this, I bet.

[Cha]

45. Thank goodness we have people who

have Vision and looking at the Big Picture.

How far has myopism gotten anyone?

[vaberella]

19. Basically. n/t

[Aramchek]

20. wrong. opponents of the Bill are using this as a Wedge issue

they are lame, and they will not stop Healthcare Reform.

[vaberella]

27. And dems are falling for it, hook line and sinker. We realize it'sa problem we take it out.

But we don' abandon this bill. Too much is ridig on it.

[Aramchek]

29. that's because honesty isn't held in high esteem by those trying to kill the bill due to this

They just say whatever they want and hope it spreads.

[AllentownJake]

28. I think it passed the house

:rofl:

[Aramchek]

31. and it will pass the Senate. despite those who would stop it.

pretty funny, huh?

[AllentownJake]

35. Probably won't

You have 14 Blue Dogs in the Senate and the 3 that are up for re-election next year have pretty big war-chests...I think the smallest is $4 million and he's running in North Dakota so I'm imagining his ad buys can't be that expensive.

Evan Bayh has $12 million and other than the Chicago market in the northern part of the state his advertising is pretty cheap, plus he rules the Indiana democratic party with a pretty good iron fist.

Than you have Lincoln she has over $4 million and Arkansas is a cheap state to run in as well, and Wal-Mart is going to keep paying her the anti-EFCA bribes no matter what the Senate decides for Health Care.

Those are the 3 that might have slight fears of voting against a bill.

The other 11, they aren't up for re-election till long after this bill has gone away so they are free to do what they want.

No matter which way you cut it, if there is a Senate Bill is going to make the House Bill look like Single Payer...you think people are bitching now...wait till that gang get to legislating.

[Tippy]

21. She may have been fooled

Friday night I got word that all five TN Dem Reps were going to support the bill...from a fairly reliable source....Three voted against it....How many others pulled this stunt from other States?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

32. It's sickening that Stupak was a DEMOCRATIC amendment/blackmail

that was allowed in to get DEMOCRATIC votes for the DEMOCRATIC healthcare plan proposed and promoted by the DEMOCRATIC President and the DEMOCRATIC Party.

Now if you don't get the underlying message there, you just don't get it.

[vaberella]

34. He IS a Dem, unfortunately. Not WAS.

And he's an ass. We have many of them in the Party. You didn't watch C-Span did you when the bill passed?! He was talking and it was scary disturbing the way he was talking. Like those psycho religious people or birthers.

He was talking in DETAIL and I mean graphic detail about abortions and a nurse in clinic who apparently go to see an abortion through a sonogram style and was so distrubed she freaked out. He went into detail. I almost threw up. This is what we had to contend with and he was spreading this and it stuck. He's a serious problem and we definitelh have to get him out. We need a better Dem.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

37. I meant that the amendment is/was from a Democrat

making it all the more sickening.

I just can't believe that Nancy Pelosi didn't recognize the enormity of what she was allowing into the healthcare bill.

[Life Long Dem]

33. Well, we know who the Blue Dogs are now.

It's just too bad we discovered them 10 months in.

[vaberella]

36. Yup. Apparently there are 52 of them. And 28 signed AGAINST the bill. n/t

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

41. Well, for what it's worth - this is my prediction

Stupak will NOT be stripped out in conference and will become a permanent part of the healthcare reform bill. A woman's right to choose will become a moot point except for the independently wealthy who once again will have to jet off to some foreign locale for the simple reason that if abortion is unfunded, in both private and public plans, it will become impossible to find a clinic or practitioner. End of story.

Until they start all over again with birth control itself - that is the next goal. Why should federal dollars fund birth control? Abstinence only, everyone?

Women's place in society and independence is determined by four things:

The ability to own property outside of marriage
The ability to vote
The access to birth control
The ability to earn a living outside of the home

I see this as an erosion of women's rights and that is why I oppose it.

[vaberella]

42. So you'll oppose the entire bill over this one issue?

And I want to be clear if it's the entire bill or just the amendment? Because if it's the entire bill, as I found your post suggesting, this is my response to you below.

An amendment no one knows will be a permanent fixture. You'll banish millions of people who hav been waiting decades for health reform to nothingness because of this one issue. I have a preexisting condition---called PCOS. People with PCOS are prone to ovarian cysts and are at extremely high risk for ovarian cancer. To give you an idea, my sister also has it and she had a cyst, luckily it was benign and caught early. My Aunt died of Ovarian cancer.

I can't afford health insurance and I wouldn't be accepted. Not only do I have this genetic pre-existing condition----but this condiion puts me borderline diabetic (and I have been put on diabetic medication)and I am obese because of it. I have been denied for health insurance and health care. I applied for medicaid and was given that UNTIL I got a job working in my school as a TA. I make too much for medicaid so they drop me---$106 more. But I make far too little to be able to afford health insurance (if I could get it).


Because you are now against the bill...I see you much like Kucinich. This bill actually gives me a chance to get Health care in the US. My sister would be able to get in the US starting in January of next year. Unfortunately, I will have to say, fuck you. You and these other voters against the bill would jeopardise a lot of lives over an issue that allows women to still get abortions. Just not pay it through their insurance (it would be out of pocket). For your info, some insurance didn't cover it before the Stupak-stupid bill.

But thanks for letting me know where you stand. All of you just said fuck you to millions of us. I'm sitting at home rationing my pills while everyone else is playing russian roulette with us. They'd rather throw us to the dogs of the system already fucking us over rather than move this along.

Whatever...you've told me where you stand. Good luck to you.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

43. I have been one of the people on this board MOST staunchly for passage of

healthcare reform despite it's many flaws. Do a search on my posts for the past month, and you'll see. I have been encouraging people to see past the flaws because of the number of people that will be immediately helped.

I wasn't paying too much attention to anything happening this weekend, I was actually busy with real life. The Stupak amendment just floors me for all the many reasons I have stated in this thread. It has really thrown me for a loop. I had no idea that going down this road would be a part of healthcare reform, although in retrospect it was highly predictable given the Hyde amendment which I think is just as indefensible.

Obama has come out for the Stupak amendment in my eyes - in another thread he is quoted as saying this is a healthcare reform, not abortion reform but then states -

"And we're not looking to change what is the principle that has been in place for a very long time, which is federal dollars are not used to subsidize abortions."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6973980&mesg_id=6974159

So this game is over in that respect. What I posted in the reply that you are replying to will come to pass - we will have healthcare reform and it will contain the Stupak amendment. Fine with me. I will personally benefit as will many others. But I despise the process and the way this has happened and that the insertion of government into medical decision making and the roll back of women's rights was at the hand of Democrats and I will remember. And I'm sure a lot of others will as well.

Time for me to officially get myself off the rolls of the Democrats and go Party/Movement shopping.