If ths bill is so dreadful, a gift to insurance Cos, slavery for women, why is the GOP against it?

[Hamlette]

I've been on DU since the beginning. I've seen some ugly stuff which I usually ignore. But this week has been different.

Someone saying the bank bailout has cost tax payers $23 Trillion, or $80,000 per man woman and child in the country and Obama did it all to enslave us to big corporations. (Shhh, come close....gag)

Now, something Dems have tried for since FDR (it was one of his three goals when he took office), having Clinton get so utterly slammed, ending up with a system that looks (from here) much like the excellent Swizz system, all I hear is how dreadful it is.

I really don't get how you can believe that if it is a huge giveaway to the health insurance industry (of which the GOP is a wholly owned subsidiary, and some blue dogs too) and how it has set abortion rights back a zillion years, why is every republican (save one) fighting to the death to defeat it?

[dflprincess]

1. Because the bill is going to be a disaster for the people

and when they finally figure it out the GOP can remind them they didn't support it. Memories being short, no one will remember that the Republicans opposed any real reform as well.

[uponit7771]

21. When in the hell did the GOP ever care about people??!?! They had 12 yrs in the house...

[LaydeeBug]

26. they're in a different position now...

as underdogs, all they have to do is fuck up would be good legislation and hang that around dems neck for the midterns,

[dflprincess]

47. They don't - I never said they did

but, when the reality of what this bill does not do hits home (we'll be paying more premiums, but the out pockets still keep us from getting care) all the Republicans have to do is stand up and say "We didn't vote for this mess." And that's all they have to say - never mind that they still won't have a solution.

The Democrats were too busy appeasing their campaign contributors rather than paying attention to what the voters wanted and appear to have lost a chance to pass the kind of a reform that would have given them a majority for a long, long time. Instead they are on track to pass legislation that will not only lose them independent votes but may very well be the last straw for a good part of their base.

[ShortnFiery]

31. Bingo - You nailed it! eom

[Dr Robert]

51. you've achieved ludicrous speed!

[NYC_SKP]

2. I don't know, but I trust Alan Grayson and many others who support the bill, such as it is.

Last week on MSNBC, Grayson said, "good can be made better, and better can be made best.", at the bill's passage he said, "this is a time for celebration."

I won't speculate on why so many here seem to think it would be better if it fails.

:shrug:

[prolesunited]

3. It's a trap!

[Hamlette]

5. yes, and the sky is falling!

sheesh

this place looks more like freeperville every day.

[prolesunited]

10. It was a joke

They use it all the time on Fark. Lighten up, Francis.

[zeos3]

23. Use this next time

[prolesunited]

42. That's it!

Thanks. :)

[Life Long Dem]

45. That must be a Blue Dog?

Because I can't tell if they are a republican or a democrat.

[phantom power]

4. opposing everything Democratic is a no-lose strategy.

If they succeed, they keep the status quo (which is just fine for their corporate masters), and they make the Democrats look ineffectual.

If they fail, they get to hang this albatross around the neck of the Democratic party. It's got mandated insurance and increased taxes for penalties. You think the GOP doesn't know how to demagogue the shit out of that? They'll tar the Dems with this in their sleep.

The only way for the Dems to win this game is if they pass something that really works well. Like SS and Medicare before it. I don't think this hack job makes the grade, but let's all hope I'm wrong since it looks like this is basically the bill that will eventually get passed.

[Hamlette]

7. SS totally sucked as passed. Basically covered only rich white people.

bit by bit. . .

I also trust Grayson more than some yahoos on DU.

God this place is depressing these days. So much misinformation.

[phantom power]

34. Could be...

Although I think it's good to point out that HCR legislation can be improved over time, there are two points I hope aren't lost:

1) This hypothetical process of improvement doesn't happen in a vacuum: We also will have opponents who are going to be working to make it more corporate-friendly over time. And those opponents, being corporations, are tireless and have more money than we do. And they can buy politicians.

2) This bill has a different structure than either SS or medicare: it is fundamentally based on private corporations to provide the insurance. The benefits to the people are completely dependent on a series of regulations, which can be chipped away at over time. SS and medicare are govt services, and they are not dependent on a host of regulations to balance out powerful corporate profit motives.

[Hamlette]

53. those regulations can also be strenthened over time

remember that the French health care system (best in the world) 90% of the citizens have health insurance some for Switzerland and Germany and several others. While I like single payer, I've seen how the other systems work and think they too can deliver quality, affordable health care for all.

[Bitwit1234]

17. That is what I think also

No matter what the democrats do they want to block it. That's the bottom line.

[Cleita]

6. You have to ask?

First the GOP wants Obama to fail so they will oppose anything. Second, they don't want any national health care bill at all. Third, they would rather steal taxpayer's money the old fashioned way through war.

[Hamlette]

9. But if this bill is SOOOOOOO bad, doesn't Obama fail? Why all they hystreria?

not buying it.

This is so much closer than we have ever gotten, we will make it better as the years go by (as we did with SS) and all dems can do is complain.

[rawtribe]

8. The swizz system is not for profit. This bill doesn't do that!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Switzerland

Swiss are required to purchase basic health insurance, which covers a range of treatments detailed in the Federal Act. It is therefore the same throughout the country and avoids double standards in healthcare. Insurers are required to offer this basic insurance to everyone, regardless of age or medical condition. They may not make a profit off this basic insurance, but can on supplemental plans.<1>

[Skittles]

11. they are against it because it is a DEMOCRATIC BILL

SHEESH

[Kaleva]

22. But their (non-existent) health car plan is better?

[Skittles]

24. cannot compare what they have to what we have

what they have will always be shit - we can certainly do much better with what WE have

[PVnRT]

33. Exactly

I'm not sure why that is so hard to see.

[Clio the Leo]

12. Exactly NT

[TreasonousBastard]

13. Hehehehe...

you know that half the left hates it more than any Republican ever could.

[HughMoran]

14. I agree - I don't get it either

Of course it's not perfect, but those who call it a steaming pile of shit aren't doing themselves any favors.

I rec'ed this real quick as soon as got the gist of it - so it did get to the GP.

[ProSense]

15. Oh, I

get it

Under siege.

:rofl:

[struggle4progress]

16. The GOP strategy is this: obstruct everything, then complain Obama has done nothing

The strategy aims at depressing Dem and Indy turn-out in 2010, with the hopes of picking up Congressional seats with the help of an activated Republican base

To keep the Republican base activated, the GOP resorts to extremist language, which turns off independents and centrists -- but the GOP hopes that attacks on "do-nothing Obama" will keep independents and centrists from showing up at the polls

[Oregone]

18. Politics. If this was a wonderful idea, why did the Democrats stop the Republicans from doing it?

The consensus is, amongst both parties, that mandated and subsidized insurance is the direction America is moving in as a compromise between coverage and capitalism. Everything you see in the meantime has been about who gets to write it off as an actual "win". Its been a corportists wet dream since Nixon first proposed it.

"I really don't get how you can believe that if it is a huge giveaway to the health insurance industry"

Ya know, some people believe it and some don't. Take this Ted Kennedy guy for example, who once viewed subsidized and mandated private insurance as....

"...a partnership between the administration and the private health insurance industry. For the private industry, the administration plan offers a windfall of billions of dollars annually. The windfall is not entirely a surplus, since elements of Administration's proposal appear to have originated in the insurance industry itself"

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

54. That Ted Kennedy guy cites not getting SOMETHING done on health care in the name of purity...

...as his biggest regret. So nice try.

[Oregone]

19. dupe

[tavalon]

20. Because they are the Party Of No

If Obama came out and said this bill sucks, they would be scrambling to vote for it. The GOP being against anything just means the "other party" is for it. But when the other party is also beholden to insurance corporations, the GOP often looks confused.

[pnwmom]

25. I'll tell you why. The worst flaw of the bill

is that it doesn't bring down costs enough. But once Obama signs a health reform bill, the Republicans won't be able to overturn it -- not unless they can come up with 60 votes to defeat a filibuster!

So -- in a few years, or sooner, when people start complaining about the costs -- and the Democrats helpfully offer ways to bring the costs down, such as a ROBUST public option, or an experiment in a state or region with single payer -- the Republicans will have a lot harder time saying no to cost-cutting than they are right now to the overall bill. And they know it. So they're terrified of a Democratic bill getting passed.

[NorthCarolina]

44. What about the mandate for folks that are struggling today to even put food on the table?

So, they just have to suffer with a mandate to buy expensive insurance for a few years, and then everything will be magically corrected when folks start to complain? Sorry, but Kucinich is right, the house bill is a boon to the insurance industry, and an added hardship for poor and middle class Americans. It is abundantly clear who Congress works for, and it isn't the people.

[pnwmom]

49. Those folks will be subsidized, as you know. And no one is being required to

buy a private insurance policy; the public option will be open to those without insurance.

[Catshrink]

27. Because the Dems and Obama are for it

and their goal is for Obama to fail. They don't give a damn about their constituents or the Amerian people, only defeating that uppity President of ours.

Fucking Boehner.

[CTLawGuy]

28. they're secretly for it.

it's a giant conspiracy!!!!1111!! series!

[CTLawGuy]

29. also they're not just voting against it

they're spending untold sums on ads attacking it as "socialism" and a government takeover.

[Joe Chi Minh]

30. If the bill succeeds in reining in the most criminal acts of the health insurance

industry, such as fraudulent denial of the claims of people they assess to be too poor to take them to court, and if pre-existing conditions will no longer debar a person from treatment, they will be significant steps towards the goal of a free health service.

[ShortnFiery]

32. Like a broken clock is on-time twice a day, the GOP has this correct. This bill is BAD! n/t

[harun]

35. The bill isn't dreadful, that's why. It doesn't do much now but in 5-10 years

we will get real reform and the reason we will be able to get it is this bill.

[phleshdef]

36. Yea, I brought something similar up, for such a grand gift, the insurance companies HATE this bill.

Anyone that makes that accusation is either being a complete liar or they haven't actually read any of the regulations being imposed by the bill.

[IndianaGreen]

37. Who cares about the GOP, or the Blue Dogs that ought to be euthanized!

The Stupak amendment goes way beyond the Hyde amendment. It is a poison pill.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

38. It's the proverbial "camel's nose under the tent"

Once we get this flawed bill through and everybody gets over the shock (SHOCK) of having a national health policy, then Congress can start sanding off the rough edges. Expanding coverage. Lowering costs.

In short, Congress will over the next several years make the market for health insurance disappear almost completely. Sure, there will be a few high-end "boutique" plans left out there and some supplemental insurance plans, but these won't amount to much compared to today's market.

This legislation, as deeply flawed as it is, represents the beginning of an end to more than a century of enormous profits. They know it, and they're fighting like hell to prevent it.

[Bluenorthwest]

39. I read this post and I wish you were my customer

and I was about to sell you something huge. Because it would be a cake walk.

[TwilightGardener]

40. It is as it appears. The GOP is against its passage because it will

end up being accepted by the public and many will rely on it, just like other social programs. Anyone who insists that the GOP is really playing some sort of sophisticated chess game is an idiot.

[Hutzpa]

41. Please be more specific

are you talking about the Stupak-Pitts amendments or the health care?

:shrug:

[treestar]

43. Exactly

And they overlook the people whose jobs are saved, too.

Some people are very naive, or wear tinfoil hats. Some people are just permanently cranky, and nothing would make them happy.

[freddie mertz]

46. It is a political calculation.

Either of these scenarios will do:

1. Force the bill to be as bad as possible through bad amendments or by misleading guilible Dems into efforts to compromise to get a vote or two , then when it passes and sucks, say they were against it the whole time, OR...

2. Cause it to fail, claim victory, and say the Dems are incapable of governing.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

48. I've asked the same thing

k&r

[Barack_America]

50. Because it's all a part of a "super triple fakeout" move by the insurance cos.

I don't believe that, but it's what I've been told multiple times on the DU.

Insurance cos. know that everyone hates them and the GOP, so they're both opposing a bill they support in hope it passes.

:eyes:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

56. A super-triple-fakeout that cost them a half a billion dollars, no less.

It's utter insanity what alleged progressives believe.

The thing is - I don't think they're progressives. I think they're either RWers, nihilists, or egomaniacs.

[depakid]

52. Republicans will oppose ANYTHING Democrats try to do

Yet somehow you think that they're rational?

:shrug:

Have you been asleep for the last 9 months?

[ej510]

55. Because the democrats will receive more insurance money than

the repukes.

[ProudDad]

57. Because they have no other option

they hate Obama...

Killing this bill would hurt Obama...

They want control again (even though they don't know what to do with it when they get it)...

Of course, the Dems can't do anything useful with control of the Congress and White House...

So, what the fuck...

[ProudDad]

58. The Swiss System

DOES NOT ALLOW FOR-PROFIT INSURANCE COMPANIES...

They HEAVILY regulate prices and costs...

This piece of shit just passed by the House does NONE of these things.

It's a give-away to the health insurance mafia and big PhRMA...

The majority of Democrats have done just what they were paid to do...again.