I understand the frustration, but why lump folks like Barbara Lee in with Blue Dogs?

[CreekDog]

and call their whole effort a failure?

okay, if it fails, it's true they all sort of own that, but is that really helpful?

is there any doubt that a bill written by a Barbara Lee, Pete Stark, Raul Grijalva, or Jan Schakowski would be a great bill?

is there any doubt that a bill written by Jim Cooper or Bart Stupak would be a great bill?

so why are so many treating folks in the first group with the same contempt as the second group?

is the first group really the problem?

George Miller D-CA (from the Bay Area) is in the leadership and is as pro consumer, pro choice and as liberal as any and he told Ezra Klein, that they weren't going to allow the Stupak Amendment to be voted on but they then would not have had the votes to pass a health care bill at all.

I don't know how you lay this at progressives' feet. They were looking at the whole thing going down in flames as it has each time it's been attempted. Meanwhile you hear veterans of those earlier fights lamenting that had not taken what they could get instead of holding out for a better outcome which never materialized.

So with that knowledge, most of the most liberal members of the house, in fact, probably all but two, voted in favor of the bill.

i don't see those members as owning the failures of this bill.

[tekisui]

1. Because the Democratic Leadership is choosing to turn the Party

into a Conseradem Party. They believe liberals are expendable, and have no where else to go.

[inthebrain]

3. This party has the same problem now that it did under Clinton

It is once again the party of Wall Street.

We may get our way on social issues but make no mistake, the rule of the day with both parties is very conservative when it come to economics.

My personal take is that the economic and the social are one in the same. You can't really seperate the two.

[CreekDog]

4. Name names

you say the leadership as if all are equally complicit and have the same thoughts on the matter.

[dionysus]

6. it's all a conspiracy you see. seriously i think people are literally losing their minds.

[tekisui]

7. Their voices are all equally lacking.

They own it all and let the messages get corrupted. Concessions are made to other Dems, no need for the repuke conservatives to even make an effort. They just sit back and bark NO!, while the conservative Dems get conservatives concessions.

I don't see any Democratic leaders standing up for the liberal positions.

[CreekDog]

8. i'm a member of the party and i don't agree with you

do you think your voice should carry unilaterally?

[tekisui]

9. I think our voices should be equally heard.

I also think the tent may have gotten too big. Maintaining power seems to be the primary objective. And, to do it, the party bends to the blue dogs, thinking that is the only way. The entire party shifted to the right, instead of the blue dogs getting in line.

[CreekDog]

10. fine, but when the Blue Dogs won't vote with you, what can you pass?

Say we get a really excellent bill and it gets 180 votes, then what?

Give up?

Do you know anything about George Miller? Back in 1994, as a member of the leadership, implored the leadership to make badly needed changes or they were going to get their asses kicked in the elections. He was right, they didn't listen and all our asses were kicked.

What I'm saying is that they aren't the monolith that you say they are and identifying who is the problem would be helpful, because if you get rid of them all and replace them with the same combination of folks, you are going to be in the same boat, whereas, if you get rid of those who are the problem and replace them with folks who will act differently --well, you might actually accomplish something.

sadly, your broad brush can't help do that.

[dionysus]

2. it's just mindless lashing out at this point. i can't tell if it's sincere anymore,

or if people are so investing in this failing they'll trash anybody.

[TheKentuckian]

5. Who's sour on Barbara Lee?

That's purity silly season, just like the teabaggers/freepers feeling the need to boot Kit Bond and Newt.