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[Jack_Dawson]

1. Well said Pete

There has been a fair amount of hypocrisy from the Dean camp. Especially this week, after the Gallup poll.

[whirlygigspin]

2. Dean has always said he thought *Bush was a moderate

and was shocked and suprised to find out what a radical he turned out to be...nothing new here, try again.

[burrowowl]

7. If Dean is nominated

I guess I will vote for him. But he is a Libertatian in Dem clothing and comes from the same monied background as Bu$h and is rather corporatist.
Damn! Damn! Damn!
I hope a reasonably democratic Democrat gets nominated. AS, DK, CMB are probably the only real ones.

[bearfartinthewoods]

37. smells like teen spirit

[revcarol]

3. Thank you for your common sense, PeteNYC.

Sometimes I think we have gone Through the Looking Glass.

[hellhathnofury]

4. We'll there are pretty big differences in the importance of those two.

It's a vote to go to war versus a several years old quote.

I think we can smack around Kerry all we want for Iraq war. It's a legitimate complaint. He hasn't repented like say Fritz Hollings either to my knowledge.

It's a solid issue, bottom line.

[JVS]

5. It is called the honeymoon

Lot's of democrats were saying things like that at the time. The idea was to tell Bush "You claimed to be a moderate and we will hold you to that claim"

And if Democrats didn't make at least a slightly welcoming pose, it would have been called poor losing. This is not uncommon.

[Crunchy Frog]

13. Do you mind if I hold onto

this post of yours, for the next time someone trots out Clarks speech where he "praised members of the Bush administration."? It really helps put some things into perspective. Thank you.

[JVS]

14. Saying "I believe Bush is a moderate" is very faint praise

in the context of speaking about a recent president elect it really seems more like "We expect this man who ran as a moderate to be a moderte"

But if you want to drop context and make it equivalent to "We need these people", go ahead, it's your intellectual honesty that is at stake.

[Jerseycoa]

34. Well...

Saying Bush is a "moderate" just after he had stolen an election probably does go a bit beyond the honeymoon. But your general point, that people tend to wish a new president well for the sake of the nation itself is valid.

[retyred]

46. And bush is doing a fine job on the war on terror?

or his model VP is "Dick Cheney, he's incredibly competent", is this also very faint praise?


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[Name removed]

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[JVS]

21. How many people have died because of Dean's statement?

How many people have died because of the IWR?

[cindyw]

6. Pete, It has more to do with looking for a reason to slam Kerry than

looking for truth. If it came out tomorrow that Dean said he supported the war on those tapes, his supporters would say, "yeah he said that all along and Kerry is a real bush-lite for voting for the IWR". Don't let it make you crazy.

[hellhathnofury]

9. You mam, are delusional. We're Democrats not fanatics.

You posted another nasty comment to the extent that we'd be willing to commit voter fraud because we're committed. Apologize.

[Eloriel]

8. He was a known quantity

IF you'd read Molly Ivins' book; I hadn't.

He was a known quantity IF you knew all about the Bush Crime Family; I didn't.

He was a known quantity IF you read all the right things on the internet; I hadn't, and had a lot more time than Dean probably had to do so, and I spent quite a bit of time online too.

He was a known quantity IF you didn't believe a thing that came out of his campaign; I unfortunately did (which is certainly NOT to say I supported him in any way).

He was a known quantity IF you were a Texan; I'm not.

And finally, tho probably irrelevent since Dean's quote is sometime in 2000 (I think I saw "December" on the tv screen), I fully -- and I mean FULLY -- expected him to govern as a moderate because he didn't win with anything approaching a mandate. Boy, was I surprise (to put it mildly).

Sorry, Pete, a good many of us -- even those of us who follow politics much more closely than the average citizen -- had no clue just how bad he'd been in Texas, or how bad he had the potential of being in the White House.

I don't see much of you on DU, but the posts I do see all seem to be yet another attempt to rationalize John Kerry's IWR vote. This one doesn't work either :evilgrin: -- at least for me.

Eloriel

[Name removed]

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[La_Serpiente]

15. Hey Eloriel, welcome back

:-)

[KittyWampus]

30. Well, DU Threads Asking "Did You Know Bush Would Be This Bad?"

have cropped up from time to time.

The majority of people say "Yes".

[MR. ELECTABLE]

10. I remember back in those days

Just after B* had been Selected for office-- I had a faint hope that he'd actually take his negative mandate and play nice... you know, meet the new boss, same as the old boss. If I recall there were a lot of greens who felt the same way.

Then he got into office, threw all his campaign promises and the entire "front" his campaign had been running in the trash, and started fucking the entire country over. That's when I discovered http://www.bushwatch.com and I found out how deep the rabbit hole went.

[Printer70]

12. There's a serious difference here which should not be overlooked

First, Bush has 60% voter support so many people think he's moderate. But more importantly, the criticism of Kerry is not that he misread Bush. It's that he gave Bush a blank check on war, and then complained about the way it went and disclaimed responsibility. The way to avoid that- don't give a blank check! We're not talking about the mistake of misreading, but the mistake of supporting Bush.

[REP]

16. Many Were Fooled, Including Barbara Ehrenreich:

"These days, Ehrenreich, who cast her vote for Nader in Florida, offers what amounts to a half apology. "Bush did campaign as somebody quite different from what he is now," she says, a bit defensively. If she knew then what she knows now, she admits, "Then I'd have voted for Gore.""

Columbia Journalism Review, Nov/Dec 2003 issue
http://www.cjr.org/issues/2003/6/ehren-sherman.asp

[sandnsea]

17. 2002 - We ought not criticize the President

I really don't care what he said in 2000. But at the same time he says he was taking it to Bush he was criticizing Kerry and other Democrats who were really taking it to Bush. That's the part that drives me loopy.

[Hep]

19. Show the quote

PLEASE show the quote. Was it president Bush, Governor Bush, Candidate Bush? Let's have ALL the information, PLEASE. This kind of half assed logic is what's causing most of the animosity around here.

[blm]

20. Dean was FOR a resolution giving Bush use of force power, too

in the bill he supported. That was at the same time as the iWR vote that he uses to label others prowar. The B-L was just as prowar as IWR, but Dean knew people wouldn't connect that fact for the most part. Too bad some realized his duplicity.

>>>>>>>>
The only awkward moment for Dean came when Katheleen Belgard, a 17-year-old Concord High School student and Kerry supporter, asked how he could portray himself as so clearly antiwar when he had supported an alternative congressional resolution (known as Biden-Lugar) that would have given the president authority to wage war against Iraq after securing a UN Security Council resolution requiring disarmament or, failing that, upon his declaration that Iraq constituted a grave threat.

Dean replied that he had initially supported Biden-Lugar because "I think the president deserves the presumption of right on his side in foreign policy. I wanted to give this president as much leeway as we could." (Imagine what Dean would say if John Kerry or Dick Gephardt had made that statement.) But Dean also noted that he had made a speech on Sept. 21, 2002, setting out his opposition to the war. However, Dean was still expressing support for Biden-Lugar in early October; at about that time, the authors of the resolution decided not to press forward with it.
>>>>>>
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/01/07/nh_voters_eyeing_two_non_deans/

[LuminousX]

22. Dwelling on IWR is a bad thing

It was a catalyst for a lot of things but in November it won't matter much. It shouldn't be used as a litmus test.

[no name no slogan]

23. Agreed-- IWR is a done deal-- we should look at how we'll get OUT of Iraq

Sure, the IWR was important, but we're in Iraq now-- and in way over our heads, too, if the daily casualty report is any indication.

What we need to look at now is how are we going to get out. Most of the candidates DO NOT have a concrete plan on how to extricate ourselves from the Iraq quagmire.

As long as we stay in Iraq, we can postpone doing anything to improve this country, like universal health coverage, rebuilding our schools, or securing our country. The war will become an ever-increasing drain on our economic resources-- one that we can ill afford at this moment in our history.

I agree, the IWR was important, but becomes even less so over the course of time. What is important today is how we're going to get out of Iraq-- which is sadly an issue that is not being addressed by most of our candidates.

[Hep]

24. While I'm not dwelling,

it isn't the IWR part of it that still bothers me. It's the BUSHLITE part of it, the willingness to grant the RW's premise. The willingness to allow the RW to control the language of the debate.

[JVS]

25. Kerry supporters are the ones who keep bringing it up

Clark supporters too, when it suits them

[KittyWampus]

32. Kerry And Clark Supporters Bring Up The IWR?

But who's campaign sent out emails to Celebrate the One Year Anniversary of the IWR?

The answer would be DEAN.

And at that time, I made the point that to most citizens the IWR is Ancient History.

But Dean still needed his Wedge Issue and used it shore up his base and bash his rivals.

[Jerseycoa]

35. No, No

Clark supporters do not as far as I have ever seen. Kerry supporters defend their candidate. It is Dean supporters who bring it up against Kerry again and again and again.

[KaraokeKarlton]

26. You're missing WHY some Dean supporters do that

I've done it in the past, and to be perfectly honest with you, how anyone voted on IWR is totally irrelevent to how I view them as candidates. I've slammed Kerry on it only in response to a Kerry supporter first attacking my candidate. I'm guessing there are a few DUers who support Dean who really are genuinely angry about the IWR vote, but I honestly think the slamming is more about throwing elbows back at individuals who are throwing elbows at Dean supporters. At least I can say that is the only reason I've ever done it. I've toned all that stuff down quite a bit as of late, though. Once in awhile I'll throw a jab back, but not nearly as much as I used to.

[LuminousX]

27. You are correct, at least from my perspective

I only bring it up as a counter-attack because I know it sticks in their craw a bit. It isn't a litmus test for me though. While it was a reason for me to look elsewhere at the time of the vote, it won't be a factor in my actual November support.

[CWebster]

28. Pete

we could be dredging up footage of any of the candidates to crucify them. You know what is going on and we are victimized by it every time. If you want to support Kerry in your heart of hearts, than now is the time to do it.

[Name removed]

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[BurtWorm]

31. I think that's a legitimate complaint, PeteNYC

if that is a Dean supporter's position. We definitely were not all suckers who believed in Bush's moderation back then.

But there is a difference between Dean's on-the-record inconsistencies between then and now and Kerry's IWR vote. It's plausible to think Dean's views have changed, and there's no sin or harm in changing your views. Kerry's IWR vote, on the other hand, is a done deal, a decision with teeth. It may have been the right decision, or the wrong one, but it wasn't just an opinion. We're talking apples and oranges.

[Name removed]

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[mydawgmax]

36. Dean has no record of senate votes to criticize.

And one measure of that standard is that Kerry was in the Senate and actually had votes to cast. Dean could say anything he wants about how he would have voted - we will never know becuase he wasn't in the Senate. By his statements, he easily may have fallen into the Bush-lite crowd as well. Post 911, a lot of good people did.

[Padraig18]

38. Why are all these moldy posts suddenly getting kicked?

:eyes:

[windansea]

39. maybe because

they expose the hypocrisy of Dean

[Padraig18]

40. Or maybe because the heat's getting too hot on the kicker's candidate?

And they want to bury the hot posts?

on edit: Might want to review this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=10764

[windansea]

41. hot posts are not always

very informative....this one is

I am still chirping with the crickets waiting for a response in the middle and end of this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=100911&mesg_id=100911

[Padraig18]

42. Might want to review this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=10764

[windansea]

43. I'm not kicking it

went here cuz a friend wanted me to see his post that I hadn't seen

then I responded to your post

:)

[Padraig18]

44. I know.

And I changed the names to protect the innocent, so to speak; the actual post that caught my attention did fit that profile, however. :)

[dsc]

45. Oh really

Bush did have a rep as a moderate. And if Dean should have known in 2k than certainly Kerry should have in 2002