Wes Clark's bipartisanship: an alternative perspective

[Clark Campaigner]

I think it's a good thing Clark voted for Nixon, Reagan, and Bush Sr.
Here's why:

It shows that he is open-minded and willing to listen to and work with both sides of the aisle. It is a positive for us. I bet Georgie's never voted for a Democrat in his whole life!

Clark will be able to say that he will deliver on the "new tone" of bipartisanship that Bush promised but has failed to do.
This is exactly the kind of President that we need.

[GOPBasher]

1. I totally agree.

He comes off as a moderate.

[jujube2]

71. same here

[bearfartinthewoods]

2. he might have before he laid out his abortion stance

26% support always legal


http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

[bowens43]

57. Do you consult a poll for everything?

[La_Serpiente]

3. ooo boy

that's a funny one. :crazy:

[NV1962]

4. Good meme: Clark, the bipartisan enabler

Agree with that idea.

But I would also be careful dangling that out there, this soon.

It's good stuff for use after the nomination, not before.

[OhioStateProgressive]

53. bipartisanship is like running in place during a marathon(nt)

[ClintonTyree]

5. No one..................

who voted for those three could call themself a Democrat with a straight face. This is one of the things that keeps me from embracing Clark. I'd like to like the man, but his record of support for some of the worst Presidents this country has ever had sticks in my craw. The question keeps coming back; why NOW is he all of the sudden a Democrat? A sudden epiphany? I've never heard that question answered, and until I do, I'll have a hard time trusting him with our nomination.

[Kolesar]

6. Because it is also an "alternative reality"

There is something wholly bogus about this Clark campaign that was supposedly started by a few grassroots activists in a "Draft Clark" movement.

[Clark Campaigner]

9. Don't forget that there are many "Reagan Democrats"

Wesley Clark will bring them home.
A lot of people are tired of partisan bickering in Washington.

Afterall, isn't the job of Congress to serve the American people, not play divisive politics?

[bowens43]

60. And look what they gave us: Reagan.

The job of congress is to do the business their constitutes elected them to do and the business of the Democrats is VERY different then business of the Republicans.

[AP]

7. It was a mistake I wouldn't make.

[CWebster]

8. This is what the Democratic party seeks?

You don't seem to understand that we are not Republicans, and your lack of subtlety about not discerning the differences does your General/god a great disservice. Again, I ask--why are you here?

[Clark Campaigner]

10. Republicans, Democrats...

How about just being Americans again and getting on with the business of the nation?

[DemExpat]

11. We need this more than ever now...

I agree.

DemEx

[jujube2]

73. I've been concerned about too much partisan rhetoric

turning off voters too.

[ClintonTyree]

12. ?????????

Perhaps you're a political dilettante like Gen. Clark, but there two distinct ideologies in play here. "How about just being Americans again and getting on with the business of the nation?" One party wants to take the country in one direction, the other party in another direction. This fact is undeniable. The more we move to the center, the center that is increasingly moving toward the right, the less chance we have to repair the harm the Republicans have done to this country. I'm tired of always accommodating the conservatives, it's time to make a stand and recapture Democratic principles before they're forever lost in a sea of conservatism.

[Clark Campaigner]

13. That attitude

will only lead to more losses for Democrats and make us more isolated and irrelevent in American politics.

I would rather have a voice in the discussion than be shut out of it completely.

[ClintonTyree]

14. Don't look now..................

but we ARE shut out of the discussion. The White House, the Senate, the House, the Supreme Court........all controlled by right wing lunatics. So we should assimilate ourselves with these lunatics in order to, what? If the voters aren't given a clear choice, there's no reason to vote for a Democrat. I believe this point was proven in the 2002 elections, Democrats ran as Bush-Lite and got their asses handed to them.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

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[maxanne]

34. HA

We've swum so far into their party it's hard to distinguish Democrats from Republicans any more. IT HASN'T WORKED. Trying to be like them has not worked for us.

Look at the track record in 2002 - we lost seats. We lost 'em because we've tried to be so hard like the Republicans. The only way to reclaim the party is to bring it back to the left of center.

I find your message, which hints strongly of assimilation, very disturbing.

[bowens43]

61. If you can't beat them join them?

Now that is a defeatist attitude. No thanks, I value my beliefs more then that.

[DemExpat]

18. The difference is that I don't see Dem candidates as Repubs....

but a candidate that can reach more Americans of all persuasions with less devisive, partisan appeal will be a winner and will be able to get more Democratic policies onto the table, and hopefully pushed through...

DemEx

I agree with the ideological split - this is getting to be a state of crisis....
The Repubs cram theirs down America's throat by coersion, corruption, distortion, monopolizing the media etc.
Dems are going to have to get into a position of power by WINNING and then by PERSUASION, reason, and compassion, win over more Americans to more Democratic principles and dreams.

I can dream, can't I? :-)

DemEx

[Clark Campaigner]

19. and to push through Dem policies, he will have to reach out to Tom DeLay

Now who do you think is more capable of doing that, Dean, or Clark?

I think the answer is pretty obvious.
Republicans in Congress will respect a 4 star general, especially one who isn't a partisan.

[edzontar]

30. Funny-I thought this was DEMOCRATIC Underground

Once upon a time, perhaps...

But this change in direction has been coming for a long time.....

[Cheswick2.0]

35. not interested in a non partisan bush lover

sorry, I will not only not vote for him. I will do everything to make sure he is in neither spot on the ticket.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

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[Clark Campaigner]

26. Are you in it for progress, or just for the fight?

Democracy is all about compromise. It is how our country has always worked.
We aren't going to accomplish anything as an entrenched minority in a democracy.

Who is going to inject Democratic values into legislation when we have no power in Congress and we can't win an election because we fighter bitterly and angrily against the majority?

Remember, WE ARE THE MINORITY. This is a DEMOCRACY. That means MAJORITY RULES. Assimilate this.

The best we can hope for right now is a good working relationship with the majority. The more we seperate ourselves from the majority, the more they will reject us.

You attract more flies with honey than with...

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[bitchkitty]

50. You have a short memory then -

I remember 2002, don't you?

I don't want to be a Republican. I don't want to accommodate their agenda - it's harmful to us all.

Your position is an insult to those of us who have studied the rigbt wing, to those of us who KNOW their agenda and who fight to protect this country from it.

[bowens43]

56. Moving further to the right, merging us with the repugs

will make us irrelevant. If winning elections is all that matters then we've already lost. What good is a voice in the discussion when that voice is shouting 'yes, I agree. Yes, I agree'?

[Tinoire]

65. Then run someone other than Bush on the Republican ticket. n/t

[DemExpat]

15. I believe the only chance to recapture Dem principles is to

be in power, to appeal to a majority, and to lead the nation in a more non-partisan manner.

This is the ONLY way to prevent a further slide towards fascism. IMHO.

DemEx

[edzontar]

28. I disagree.. the Repuke party has become a FASCIST party

So how can we be "bipartisan" with them?

Seems an oxymoron.

I say, oppose and DEFEAT them, if at all possible.

[DemExpat]

31. 'Defeat them' is only possible within the power system IMO.

I'm certainly not saying Dems should be in cohorts with the Repub party power thugs, but bi-partisan in a national sense, towards the constituency, towards members of Congress after the election....

I do not think that all Republicans and supporters are fascists.
Most are misguided IMO.
We need a strong Dem to guide them to more 'enlightened' principles.

DemEx

[edzontar]

32. But when somone says "work with TOM DELAY"?

A man who is the poster boy for GOP Fascism, i would say that is over the line.

This place is starting to get really scary.

[Clark Campaigner]

36. this is the reality

How do you propose we get around working with the Speaker of the House in our political system of checks and balances and seperation of powers?

[edzontar]

44. This is YOUR reality.

The Dem-Lite solution.

Look how well we have been doing with this approach over the past 4 yearts...really great. eh?


Ask Max Cleland about "working" with the Repukes.

[Clark Campaigner]

49. No, it's the reality of the political system, created over 200 years ago

with the adoption of the Constitution.
And it's still going strong.

Please, take some civics courses and learn how our government works.

[maxanne]

33. as Garrison Keillor

has been singing lately, "We're all Republicans Now"

[bowens43]

55. Forget it.

If you and Clark don't see the difference between the parties then
you haven't been paying attention. You subject line is very revealing. We don't need to be shoved further to the right.

[Kahuna]

63. Amen, CC. The partisans are ruining our country. We are..

on the verge of a civil war if things keep going as they are. This is the message that will win in 2004!

[stickdog]

17. It's the same reason why Jackson Stephens bankrolled both Bushes, Clinton

and Clark!

Not to mention the Republican Country Club for Growth!

[Killarney]

20. I really don't get why this is a big deal

He's been voting Democratic for 12 years.

It's not like he voted Republican in the last election and just changed his mind. It's been <b>12 years</b> since he has voted for a Republican.

And I agree with the OP that a person like this appeals to the 40% of voters who are independent/swing that are so disheartened with partisan politics.

[Very Good Dem]

21. It also can be a big influence on other Republicans

who are very uneasy about Bush but are reluctant to vote against him. Seeing a former Republican supporter like Clark switch over could lead these folks to do the same.

[Cheswick2.0]

22. I am a democrat and a partisan

I think Partisanship is a good thing. I happen to like gridlock.

[edzontar]

24. IMO, these votes showed poor judgment and a hostility...

To the most basic progressive values.

For a man who would be our standrard-beared, those votes are a terrible blot on his record.

How, I ask you, can he stand up and defend the record of a party that he has almost never supported with his vote?

[Killarney]

25. What are you talking about?

He has voted Democratic for 12 years!

Is 12 years "almost never supported" in your opinion?

[edzontar]

27. OK-I will modify--a man who supported

Some of the most recent and WORST enemies of progressive values in our nation's history.

Will that do?

[Bread and Circus]

66. Yeah, cuz you are either with us or against us!

[Cheswick2.0]

37. so he says!

I can say I voted Republican too....but it would be a lie

[Clark Campaigner]

40. actually, Nixon was pretty progressive

He had a very robust domestic social policy and created Affirmative Action and the Environmental Protection Agency, just to name a few.

Watergate was bad, but it doesn't erase his strong legacy of civil rights and environmentalism. He was very good on both of these. Better than most, in fact.

Oh, but I know, it doesn't fit with the loathsome one-dimensional caricature of him embodying all that is evil in the world that I'm sure you have bought into.
:eyes:

[maxanne]

41. this is amazing

totally amazing. Are we Democrats here or is this board morphing into something totally other?

[Clark Campaigner]

42. So as Democrats we are supposed to deny facts in favor of partisanship?

Are either of those facts untrue?

Did Nixon not advance Affirmative Action or create the Environmental Protection Agency?

Or do you mean we would be better off without these?
I would like to maintain some level of intellectual honesty within our discussions.

I think Clark supported Nixon because of his record in these areas.

BTW, did you know that "Progressivism" was actually introduced into American politics by Republicans in the early 1900s?
Are you going to now abandon progressivism because of this?

Is it about the partisan fight or the core values for you?

[maxanne]

45. are you gazing

into a crystal ball to know what Clark's reasoning for voting for Nixon was?

Nixon was the last president we had who was interested in substance abuse treatment. I give him a lot of credit for that - but he was hardly a great president. I worked against his election in 1972, because even at the age of 16 I was a Democrat.

This election is about a lot more than who becomes president. This election is about the future of the Democratic Party. I don't believe that Republicans are going to save the party for us. We need to wrestle the national dialogue and the government back from the right wing fascists currently in control. Democrats becoming kinder, gentler Republicans is not the answer.

The core values of the DEMOCRATIC party are extremely important to me. Who better to advance those values than actual Democrats?

[Clark Campaigner]

47. Given Clark's positions, I am simply assuming why he liked Nixon

I think they are reasonable assumptions, but yes, only assumptions.
It's the best I have to offer.

[edzontar]

43. NIXON, eh? Well there was this thing called Vietnam

OK, Johnson started it, but Nixon kept it going and expanded it with a thing called the Cambodia Invasion.

And the Chile business.

Oh and you already mentioned Watergate--which involved Dirty Tricks camapigns againts OUR candidates.

Geez.

[Clark Campaigner]

46. Nixon got us out of Vietnam

And under Nixon, GOP stood for "Generation Of Peace."

But the issue at hand is Nixon's domestic policy.
What was wrong with it?

He was probably better than Johnson on both foreign and domestic policy, but for some reason pop culture seems to credit Johnson for Nixon's domestic policy and blame Nixon for Johnson's foreign policy.

Watergate aside, Nixon was a good President...
Oh, yeah, but he was a Republican.
:eyes:

[edzontar]

48. Were you ALIVE during 1968-74?

Do you know how many thousands of Americans and MILLIONS of Southeast Asians died under the NIXON phase of the war?

Nixon tried to WIN the war all over again, then lost, and pulled out...that is the story.

The NVA and VC beat our asses.

[Clark Campaigner]

51. it's a bit more complex than that

and it was the "vietnamization" that failed, not the American military. And had Congress continued to support South Vietnam, it probably would have succeeded. Nixon inherited a mess with no exit strategy and did what he could to rectify it. He was no war-monger.

But once again, we're discussing Nixon's domestic advances.
There is far too much preoccupation with Vietnam.

[Clark Campaigner]

64. Another progressive Nixon act: Endangered Species Act of 1973

Would we also be better off without this?
:eyes:

[Bread and Circus]

67. Yeah, I have known these things about Nixon as well...

but I though if I ever mentioned them I would be labeled
a "sympathizer".

Actually, I have read many kind words about Nixon
in "The Nation" of all places -- talking about how
he has passed more liberal things we know enjoy than
many Democrats.

Oh yeah, but it doesn't fit into the sheep's speech:

"Four legs good, two legs bad"

[Clark Campaigner]

68. You should never be afraid to speak the truth

We need to support that which is right and denounce that which is wrong, regardless of who it is that does them.
I would much rather support Republicans when they try to accomplish good than to fight against them and prevent progress from being made.

And it needs to be said: Nixon was probably the best environmental President we've ever had. If you care about the environment, you should acknowledge and respect this.

So considering this, should you really hold Clark's support of Nixon against him?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

38. "Bipartisanship is another word for date rape"

That's what the Republicans think. I'm not so sure being bipartisan with them is a good idea.

[Clark Campaigner]

52. Ha!

Hadn't heard that one before.
But it's not a sentiment I would agree with.

Truth is nothing gets done in Congress without bipartisanship on some level.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

59. Tom Delay says that

It's been a long time GOP mantra - "Bipartisanship is another word for date rape" - and they have long said it publically too.

[Cheswick2.0]

39. your sig graphic is too big

it is hanging up my computer everytime I open a thread that you have posted in. It would be very bipartisan of you to use something a but more moderate in size.

[bowens43]

54. It show that he has no strong beliefs.

It shows that the party and by extension the parties platform means nothing to him. How anyone could see this as a positive is beyond me.

This is exactly the kind of person we need to keep as far as possible from any leadership position. This is the kind of person who would drive our party even further to the right.

You're right, Georgie probably hasn't voted for democrat in his entire life. It shows that as vile as he may be he believes in the integrity of his party and they beliefs of it's members.

Have you ever voted for a republican? I have voted in every national and reginal election since 1976 and I have never voted for a republican. Not once.

[demguy29199]

58. ya

ya

[Kahuna]

62. I definately see it as a general election asset.

I was sick and horrified when I first learned that Clark voted for Reagan and Bush I. But I believe that he is more politically asture since he became a Clintonista and have forgiven him. :D

[TexasSissy]

69. Don't Dems realize that tens of thousands of Dems voted for Reagan?

That's how Reagan won by a landslide over Jimmy Carter! Could be many Dems aren't old enough to remember that election?

Memory Lane:
Mortgage interest rates at that time: about 18% to 22%. Guess who could buy a house? No one but the wealthy.

Car loan interest rates: about the same.

Inflation: Double digit. Groceries one week.....guaranteed increase in those same groceries by the very next week.

Gasoline prices: exorbitant.

The economy was out of control. So millions rushed to the polls to vote Carter out and someone else (it happened to be Reagan) in. Didn't mean the Dems didn't love Carter. It's just that things were out of control.

I agree....when someone doesn't automatically hate the other side, it means more when they DO criticize the other side.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

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[isbister]

74. tens of thousands"? Try MILLIONS

If tens of thousands or even millions jumped off of a bridge.

I wouldn't.

Is it a good idea to alienate them?

No, but that doesn't mean that I should vote for one to represent my party in the race for President of the United States to dethrown the worst president in history, does it?

[Dover]

72. Your "Uncle Dean" hatemongering graphic is so....very....GOPish

Speaks volumes about you and Clark supporters. (and I'm not a Dean supporter).

Lol! Nice try, but Clark is nothing but a defender of the corporate elite. If GOPers like Clark can so easily find a home in the Dem Party and candidates' values, agendas and policies are that easily gained or shed, then the whole issue of bipartisanship is ridiculous and moot. There IS no longer a discernble difference.

[isbister]

75. Clark voted for Nixon, Reagan, and Bush Sr

It shows that he is open-minded and willing to listen to and work with both sides of the aisle.

How does Clark voting for like-minded people show he worked on anything but one side of the aisle (who'd he vote for in '76, Ford I'll bet).

Show's me he was a republican and agreed with their twisted views.

Clark will be able to say that he will deliver on the "new tone" of bipartisanship that Bush promised but has failed to do. This is exactly the kind of President that we need.

I don't have much use for the other party or their views about where our country should go.They've shown what they do when they have power, kick 'em all out.

[Moderator]

76. Locking....

This thread is from a disruptor...