My concern about the "Dean Tapes"

[worldgonekrazy]

I don't think the comment about the Iowa caucuses will hurt him much, if at all. The media is making a big deal of it but it seems to me that the voters don't really care that much. Plus the news will be overshadowed by Harkin's endorsement, which is quite a feather in Howard Dean's cap in Iowa and across the nation (Harkin is one of the most respected Dem Senators).

Having said that, my concern is what will happen once Dean gets the nomination (should he do so) and enters the general election cycle. It seems to me that there is a LOT of fodder on these tapes for Karl Rove. For example, the parts where Dean says that Bush is a "moderate at heart" will play directly into Rove's "compassionate conservatism" scam.

Then there is the quote that it would be "both good and bad" if Hamas were to take over the Palestinian ruling authority. I could really see the media grabbing hold of that one: "HOWARD DEAN SUPPORTS TERRORISM!" would be the headline.

So, my fellow Dean supporters, what can we do to counter this? I know we all would prefer to sweep it aside and move on, but this WILL surface again in the general election if Dean wins the nomination.

BTW, I would also like to qualify my concerns by saying that ANY candidate has done such things that the Bush Admin. could easily use against them. Take Wesley Clark gushing over Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. as an example.

[KissMyAsscroft]

1. I dont think anyone will care...

Dean is not Gore. He won't sit back and quietly accept the labeling.

He has known from the start what the media will try to do. His entire campaign is about circumventing the media.

He will laugh it off.

[markus]

3. the "Bush is moderate" line plays into "Bush is a liar"

Yeah, a lot of people believed Bush's lie about that.

[MercutioATC]

8. I agree, and it's consistent with what Dean's said from the beginning.

Dean's always said that Bush campaigned as a "compassionate conservative" but has run his Presidency quite a bit right of that position. I think it's great to give past Bush voters an out by telling them that they were lied to. This is one issue I'm not concerned about. There are other quotes that can be spun, but Dean has good background for most of them. He needs to immediately issue clarifying press releases EVERY time the Repubs attack something he's said. I don't think we'll have a problem once the public sees that he has an answer for every attack.

[worldgonekrazy]

15. Good point

I like that idea. "Hey, I was duped too. Don't feel bad. Just get the fucker out of office."

[worldgonekrazy]

7. Good point re: Gore

You're right. Dean would just sit there meekly and let Bush call him a liar like Gore did. Dean would turn it on its head by saying something like "I'M a liar? How about when you lied to take us to war and killed (however many troops it is at that point) in the process?"

[slinkerwink]

2. Dean Television Ad in 2004

"Before Bush took office in January 2001, he was a moderate, but look at what happened. Bush lost over 3 million jobs, only had one thousand jobs created in one month when under the Clinton administration, a thousand jobs were being created every three hours, brought us unilaterally into Iraq, and now over 500 of our soldiers are dead, and 9,000 injured.

When I am president, I will not be a radical, extreme President like George W. Bush. I will balance the budget, get health care for every woman, man, and child in America, and create jobs for thousands and thousands of unemployed Americans.....this is because I care about America and Bush doesn't with his radical presidency."

[worldgonekrazy]

6. I like it slinkerwink

If anybody could take something like that and turn it on its head it is Howard Dean. thats why I like him so much: he can set the agenda and frame the debate like no Democrat has for a LONG time.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

21. Nope. Dean has no such record to back it up

and absolutely nothing to indicate anyone in America will put him in charge of national defense.

[Nederland]

9. What will you do

...if by November the US has a good economy and Karl Rove has succeeded in getting all but 50K troops out of Iraq?

Rove is working hard to take every issue away from a Dean campaign.

[worldgonekrazy]

13. He can work as hard as he wants but he won't succeed

The economy may be better in terms of things like GDP and maybe even a bit of job growth, but it will be nothing compared to the good times Bush inherited when he came into office. Dean will point that out and call them on their bullshit.

[Armstead]

19. Just the opposite Nederland

One of Dean's strengths (in my opinion, of course) is the fact that he is taking on much bigger issues than the currently economic report card or how we're doing in Iraq.

That's where the typical Democratic centrists are vulnerable. By making economic issues merely about what the current GDP figures are, or what the current decimal points of unemployment.

He is, instead, discussing the nature of the economy, who benefits and who is hurt, plus otehr priorities.

He's not a major change agent, true, but he has expanded the platform against Bush to acknowledge the core problems beyond the day's current "feel good" or "feel bad headlines.

[Nederland]

28. I think you are right

I don't think anyone has any real control over what the November economy will be like at this point. What things will be like then will be a result of actions that have already been taken at this point in time. The Iraq situation, however, is more under their control. I can, for example, see the White House pushing to get troop number over there way down by the November time frame. Whether or not the situation over there becomes worse because of it irrelevant to them. They figure they can always put more in after the election. The key will be to make it look like things are winding down and we are on our way out.

As a result, I can see this election being more about the domestic economy than anything. Ironically, I tend to agree with you that this could be a very good thing. If the election turns out to be about national security however, I don't see a Dean nominee winning (Clark maybe, but not Dean). I know that it is Dean's opposition to the war that is his greatest attraction to most Democrats, but I tend to think it is precisely what may hurt him in the general.

[HFishbine]

33. Too easy

Run on his record: Education, balancing the buget, civil liberties and health care.

The scenario you describe takes more away from Clark than Dean. If all is good in Iraq, Clark's real experience, his record, is neutralized and all that's left is his rhetoric.

[HFishbine]

12. You could add a line

"At the present rate of job growth, it will take GW 216 years to replace the jobs lost under his misadminstration.*"

* 1,000 jobs created in December.

[KittyWampus]

4. Astute Analysis

just as your thread on "How is Clark/Axciom Different than Cheney/Halliburton".

Oh, that's right... that thread you started smearing Clark, using quilt by association, didn't really make any case to support your implicit assertion that there's some similarity between Clark & Cheney.

You were bascially blowing smoke.

If you are sincere here in this thread... you seem awfully worried about the Democratic Candidates in general.

All of our candidates will go just fine in the General Election.

[worldgonekrazy]

10. What are you talking about?

I am genuinely worried and I wanted to voice my concerns and (hopefully) have someone tell me why I shouldn't worry about it.

This post, combined with my other one about Clark/Acxiom (which is a VERY legitimate concern in my book) ought to tell you that I question all of our candidates equally. I'm interested in getting to the bottom of things, not blindly following somebody.

On edit: and by the way, I think there IS some similarity between Cheney and Clark in that the former personally profited from war while the latter personally profited from the climate of fear following 9/11.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

27. I admire your optimism but Bush is beating us badly in the polls. We can't

afford to be non-realistic.

[jeffcal005]

5. you're right...

These tapes, both Clark and Dean, spell HUGE problems in a general election against Bush. I'm not going to pretned that they won't hurt, because they will -- every dem in their heart of hearts knows this. Bush is sitting in Washington, passing legislation after legislation, and we have OUR guys out in Iowa tearing each other apart!

Now you even have Hillary making a racist and insensitive remak about Ghandi -- a remark that if made by a republican would have sent this message board and our leaders into a frenzy!

bad shape...

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[worldgonekrazy]

14. I'll admit that it does seem that way

But on the other hand one could argue that it just shows how smart Dean is politically. If he can do this in Iowa during the primaries he will be able to do similar things against Bush in the general election.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

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[worldgonekrazy]

17. Nah. The only reason he's getting attacked so much is that he is

the front runner.

If Wes Clark was the front runner right now we would NEVER stop hearing his comments about how great Bush is, or that he participated in a fundraiser for Bush, or that he voted for Reagan, and so forth.

Then we would be talking about all of Clark's "gaffes"

[Capn Sunshine]

29. "thrown together"

ROTFL

[Parrcrow]

18. MSNBC has discovered the internet

It certainly looks like they are going to try to use this like the Gore internet issue. That is blow it out of proportion, misrepresent it and just plain lie. They are clearly trying to get Iowans pissed off at Dean for denigrating the Iowa Caucus when he was speaking about THE CAUCUS SYSTEM!!!! A system that has since been reformed.

In ninety hours of tapes they could find nothing damaging to Dean but a whole load that they could spin.

As a Canadian I was really pissed off at the denigrating description of the programme; "what passes for archive for an obscure Canadian public affairs programme".:mad:

I was never overly enthusiastic about The Editors, but would put it up against anything that the entire NBC system is even capable of conceiving.

Not to mention the sinister label "The Dean Tapes". Stalin would have giggled with joy had these sycophants been working for him.

[worldgonekrazy]

22. I've always found Canadian TV to be more intelligent

I remember when I was in the Yukon Territories back in February and was BLOWN AWAY by the main news show (CBC's if I remember correctly). They were reporting stuff about Iraq (Admin lies and whatnot) MONTHS before the American media got around to it. Very critical.

[Armstead]

20. This was not a hidden microphone

Geeze what a tempest in a teapot. This was a national talk show in which he is discussing politics of the day. It wasn't some whispered comments Dean made that was caught on a hidden camera.

The world looked a lot different to most people several years ago. My God, who would not be embarassed if someone were to drag out every observation they stated back then.

[AlinPA]

23. Dean handled the cross-examination by Judy Woodruff

well today on Inside Politics. He said lets talk about issues like jobs, soldiers dying in Iraq, deficits, etc. instead of things he said 4, 6, 8 years ago. IMO, really, all the debate is about things that are not issues that matter.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

24. No. That line of debate is: "Why should we believe you now?"

and Howard is plenty vulnerable as a straight shooter.

[Adjoran]

25. Relax

Take a few deep breaths.

Yes, Dean would take heavy fire from Rove & Co. So will whoever gets the nomination.

If it isn't over one thing, it will be another; if there is nothing, they will make something up.

I have some concerns about Dean, mainly because of the series of mistakes over the last six weeks or so, but the tapes aren't among them.

[Jackhammer Jesus]

26. Clark supporter's take on the tapes.

I agree in particular with the point you make about the tapes being fodder from Rove (as well as anti-Dean democrats). After all the controversy over Clark's speech complimenting Bush, Dean is now essentially in the same boat after his 'moderate at heart' and 'two terms' comments. Come election time, nearly identical ads could be run by the RNC bashing our nominee, be it Clark or Dean, for praising the president. But I'm not concerned about it for Clark, nor would I be in Dean's case - supporters of both have already pointed out that such attacks could be turned around with something along the lines of "We gave Bush a chance, but look at everything he's done wrong..."

As for the tapes as a whole, I don't think there is any one comment Dean made in the tapes that was significantly bad - but when taken as a whole, IMO, they don't paint a very good picture of him.

It's really not an important issue, I'd say - but hey, somebody had to spend hours upon hours watching those tapes, and I'm sure they'd be kicking themselves in the ass if they didn't get SOME dirt out of it... :P

[w13rd0]

31. he called him a moderate...

...BEFORE HE STOLE THE F'N ELECTION, and saying that you can't simply dismiss him as a one term idiot is correct, as we're all tearing one another apart, with the goal, apparently, of LOSING to the son of a bitch because not a candidate will emerge unbloodied, not even the sanctified son who is not really a politicial, but his campaign sure as hell knows how to play dirty...

[Jackhammer Jesus]

35. Like I said...

those two statements are nothing Dean won't be able to fight, if they're used against him - but if the Republicans want to use them, they will, regardless of WHEN the statements were made.

No need to explain them to me - I'm not fazed by those videos. They haven't made me any less likely to vote for Dean if he's the nominee.

[Capn Sunshine]

30. People aren't stupid.

This hack job on Dean will invigorate the boneheads at DU who think this is damaging to Dean.

Everyone else will sieze on the PASSION AND FIRE of him calling out the GOP racists and teling off that bozo who tried to put out fallacious BS as fact.

That's what the folks I knwo in Iowa, my own little polling group, tell me.
HE KICKED ASS.
Now, you're afraid of WHAT exactly?

[Nederland]

32. This is what I'm afraid of

That's what the folks I knwo in Iowa, my own little polling group, tell me.
HE KICKED ASS.
Now, you're afraid of WHAT exactly?

I'm afraid:

1) Your little group is compose of all politically active Democrats, not typical voters.
2) That people ARE stupid.

[Capn Sunshine]

34. I should clarify

my own little polling group is a diverse bunch , not really "politically active". They are acquaintences and friends from Cedar Rapids and DesMoines, where I arranged financing for a couple of investments they have.

As to your second point, well, I share that fear often.
:scared: