Dean's NEW view on taxes

[silver]

Dean's view on taxes is like Kerry's on the IWR. Had Kerry voted no, Dean would not exist. Similarly, if Dean supported middle-class taxes from the beginning, this race would be close to over. But he stubbornly went around the entire country accusing Democrats of being Bush-lite. He also ducked the question in debate after debate.

My question for Dean supporters is do you feel duped by Dean? Did you expect a middle-class tax cut package all along? Do you still believe that Dean is the straight shooter you always thought he was?

This is not a flame - I'm just curious about what Dean supporters are thinking.

Peace.

[joefree1]

1. Absolutely, we feel Dean is a straight shooter

He's a thinking learning candidate that welcomes the discussion of any issue. The more the other candidates try to make this campaign a war of sound bytes and "gotcha" the more support Dean gets.

Give em hell Howard.


Images from Dean Rocks the House of Blues, Hollywood
From wtmusic http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=919849
From Joefree1 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=921300

[ClarkGraham2004]

23. But if guys like Kerry, Edwards and Gephardt are "thinking learning"

they are Bush-lite.



:eyes:

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joefree1]

6. Little flip flops versus one big flip flop?

Like Clark saying the Bushies are a great bunch of guys?

I respect Clark for what he believes now not what he did two years ago. I hope you would give Dean the same consideration.

Ominous Polls:
A look at the Gallup polls over the past few moths show why Democrats are becoming increasingly nervous about putting Clinton at the head of their ticket.
In a head-to-head match up on March 20, Bush led by only 52-43 percent and Clinton was indeed within striking range. But as the weekly disclosures took their toll during the ensuing primaries, Clinton's margin fell to 54-38 percent on March 29 and then fell further to 54-34 by the beginning of April.
Edit ...
"The negatives are forming on Bill Clinton like a political stalactite, drop by drop," said veteran Democratic consultant David Sawyer. "Each drip leaves a residue that builds on his negative image."
Edit ...
Quayle campaign committee, "We're following the Napoleonic maxim: Never interfere with the enemy when they are in the process of destroying themselves."
http://www.worldandi.com/public/1992/june/cr6.cfm

"If you have no enemies, it is a sign fortune has forgot you."
- Thomas Fuller (1608 - 1661)

[ima_sinnic]

8. I never thought it was set in stone

Dean's ideas and policy positions have been evolving. It's not "flip-flops," it's a process. I would prefer that over being too rigid.

[bearfartinthewoods]

26. a hornet that will sting us in the butt

or, since there seem to be so many of them...killer bees

[Lobo_13]

3. He always said

that repealing the Bush tax cut was just the first step in reforming the the tax code.

It's a very reasonable view. You have to get the budget back to a semblence of sanity before you can decide where to start transforming the tax code. Just like with his health proposal, it's more important to get everyone covered first and THEN go in to fix the system.

Sadly, the political reality is that it's very hard to sell the first part of the plan on it's own. So he's being forced to reveal the second part, which I'm pretty sure that he wanted to release on GWB.

But, that's politics.

[silver]

5. Yeah but it's also politics to claim repealing all tax cuts

during the Democratic primaries and then changing for the general election. Isn't that just a bit dishonest? Does that mean Dean is like every other politician?

[Lobo_13]

9. He still wants to repeal all of the tax cuts.

Just like he still wants to reform the tax code.

To be dishonest, he'd have to say that he was now in favor of keeping part of the tax cuts.

No dishonesty here.

[killbotfactory]

4. He never ruled out tax cuts

Tax reform has always been part of his platform. He wants to get rid of Bush's tax cuts, then reform the system to make it more fair.

When he said this before, he was criticized for not being specific.

Now when he's going to release the details, he's being criticized for flip-flopping.

Whatever.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

7. just wait for the 6th year of his admininstration.

I understand that one idiotic and presumptuous remark is costing him a few votes in Iowa.

[Lobo_13]

10. Only people that weren't going to vote for him anyway.

They were quickly replaced.

[ima_sinnic]

11. now let me get this straight . . .

people who want to vote for Dean now, are dropping their support for him because they wouldn't want to vote for him for a second term?
whatever.

[quaker bill]

20. Let's see

Clinton took over with a similar mess. About 6 years later the budget was balanced and into surplus. Perhaps this is why the 6 year figure sounds a bit familiar.

This timeframe seemed to work pretty well the last time.

No other democrat running has a plan that will even come close to this. They aren't even trying to balance the budget in 8 years.

[Hep]

12. Had Kerry voted no, Dean would not exist?

Wow! That's like TIME TRAVEL and shit. That's awesome!

But wrong.

So let's fix yet another brokwn theory.

First, Dean didn't run based on Kerry's vote. He ran on congress's vote. He ran on the changing of the debate and the concession of the language to the RW. He ran on opposition to Bush's war and ANYONE who supported it. SO had Kerry voted NO, he would be doing better in the polls potentially, but it wouldn't have undone the NATURE of Dean's campaign, which is the ACTUAL reason he's doing so well. Remember, we mustn't get our OPINIONS from the press. We have to be a bit more vigilant than that. The press claiming that he ran on his opposition and that his support comes from that is a half truth.

OK, so taxes. Dean DID run the whole time on FAIR TAX POLICY. Hr hadn't PROMISED a middle class tax cut and he hadn't DENIED it. He put forth a policy that left the door open. Why would I fault him for that?

So yes, Dean IS a straight shooter. And he has earned the benefit of the doubt for me. But that's me. I knew that middle class tax relief was a possibility, but knowing his policies and his goals, I was never worried about it.

[Lobo_13]

13. After all

he did lower taxes in VT twice.

He's been straight up, but alot of people here aren't listening anyway.

[hedda_foil]

14. Let's put this little bugger to bed right now.

Wall Street Journal op ed by Howard Dean 8/22/03 (NOTE DATE PLEASE)

We can do better. As president, my economic policies will be focused and clear. I will begin by repealing the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, and using the revenues that result from the repeal to address the needs of the average American, invest in the nation's infrastructure and, through tax reform, put money in the hands of those most likely to spend it.

The task of meeting the needs of American families begins with health care. My plan will not only insure millions of Americans who are without adequate care today, it will reduce costs for small business, states and communities--freeing up funds that can be used to grow businesses and meet other national and local priorities.

An important part of my program for a full-employment recovery will be extending a helping hand to states and communities. My policies as governor kept Vermont strong fiscally; but all over America, the financial resources of other states and cities are strained to the limit. Teachers are being laid off, highways lack repairs,
firehouses are closed. Instead of tax cuts that have not created jobs, we need to make investments in America. I will increase federal aid for special education, and provide more temporary help to the states--for homeland security and school construction and infrastructure modernization. And I will increase the availability of capital for small businesses, so that they can invest in new technology and create more jobs.

No program for economic recovery and growth can ignore the tax system, particularly the bizarre collection of tax expenditures, preferences, credits and deductions which has directed revenues away from the federal treasury and into uneconomic tax avoidance schemes. Average Americans pay their taxes through withholding or quarterly estimates. Meanwhile, corporations and multinational enterprises take advantage of elaborate tax shelters, and billions go uncollected. The need for reform is obvious and compelling, and I will give tax reform a top priority in my administration. But unlike the tax initiatives of the current president, my program of tax reform and relief will be targeted to the average Americans who are struggling to make ends meet--not those whose needs are well provided for.


<snip>

http://www.deanindependents.org/archives/000066.html

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. No. His standard response has been it's money for health care

nothing about tax credits etc....

[Lobo_13]

16. Since you obviously missed this part

and, through tax reform, put money in the hands of those most likely to spend it.

I thought I'd repeat it just for you.

[quaker bill]

17. Thanks

There is nothing new about Dean's position on taxes. He said as much in the debates, his written position has been clear on this for many months.

[sandnsea]

19. lol, I argued this crap for MONTHS

Over and over, I pointed out he wasn't clear on his tax cuts. What did he really mean. Oh, I was assured time and again he was going to repeal ALL the Bush tax cuts. And he wasn't wishy-washy and he wasn't trying to have it both ways or talking out of both sides of his mouth or being underhanded against the other candidates about their tax position.

The man is full of it. Just like on every other thing he's ever said. He says every single different thing imaginable so he can pull whatever he wants to out of his hat when he wants to change. I do not want that kind of President. We have a President like that. Enough already. There are plenty of candidates to choose from who can make good decisions for the country and stick to them.

[quaker bill]

18. That Dean has been straightforward on this subject for months

There is nothing new here. If you had been reading or paying any attention to the debates, you would know this.

[silver]

21. If so straightforward, how come Dean supporters haven't talked about

his tax policy on the DU boards? I've seen all the debates and never came out of it thinking that Dean was going to provide tax cuts for the middle-class. He always talked about investing in health care and education.

[SahaleArm]

24. Dean's like the weather - wait 10-minutes n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

28. I think I remember

him saying that he thinks the American people would much rather have health care and better education RATHER THAN a tax cut. That's been his mantra, has it not? Or did I dream that too?

[AP]

22. What does Dean owe to Libertarians that prevented him from being a Dem

on this issue in the first place?

People say he isn't an ideologue, but the only reason anyone would be so hostile to the idea of a more progressive tax code is if they were an ideologue in the first place.

Or perhaps it's something like this: Dean clearly is going to measure his success if elected by three things: balancing the budget, a health care plan and number of jobs created.

If scratch the surface of some of his policies, you can see how he intends on creating more jobs, but he doesn't care if they're low paying jobs. He'll give corporations the profits they want via low paying jobs. Also, he'll balance that buget, and he'll keep up the 30 year trend in America of reducing the tax burden on corporations. But how's he going to pay for health care? Out of regressive taxes disproportionately burdening the middle class. Hooray.

Dean's position on taxes has baffled me from the beginning. So few Americans even understand the issue in the first place that he could have lied to people, and then have done something else, and most people wouldn't have even noticed. He's lying to them right now about how tax policy works, and most people don't seem to get it.

I guess this also has something to do with his excitement over definining himself as the un-Bush -- whatever Bush does, Dean will do the opposite (even though he thought Bush was a moderate, like Dean, back in the day). But it's much more than that. It's the libertarian in Dean that makes him so hostile to traditional liberal views on taxes.

[Printer70]

25. As a Dean supporter, I don't like it

...but what do I know? The principle of keeping the money for the states, paying down the debt, and funding universal healthcare seemed like the right thing to do. But politics always plays a role and you've got to get elected before you can govern.

[Eric J in MN]

27. maybe Dean will have a revenue neutral or revenue increase plan

Maybe Dean will have a revenue neutral or revenue increase plan.

Raise taxes on the rich enough to offset lowering them on the middle-class.

[Upfront]

29. Duped By Dean

No way! I know what Dean said from the start and you don't seem to. Go Dr. Dean!!!!!!!!!!!

[flaminbats]

30. Repeal all of shrub's tax-cuts, & stop further erosion of the revenue base

Peace is what we want, but our nation still has deficits left over from two recent wars. Dean has been the most appealing candidate to me in the past, because he has resisted the temptation to jump onto this neo-con tax cut bandwagon. All of the spending programs being promoted by Dean, Edwards, Kucinich, Kerry, and Clark will be paid for somehow. Repealing the tax-cuts will reduce most of the deficits in 5-6 years, however when these proposed spending programs are considered..deficits would still be around even after a repeal of all shrub's tax-cuts.

This leaves us with five remaining options..consider military spending cuts, consider addition tax increases on the wealthy and corporations, continue some deficit spending by ignoring these necessary decisions, or pass on even larger deficits and higher bills to the next generation..by leaving behind some of shrub's tax-cuts in addition to these new spending programs.

The main thing that people want is more consistency and progressivity in the tax code, not constant change and confusion. The tax code in the 90's was sufficient for bringing in surpluses, while progressive enough not to impact economic growth. What hurts our economy the most isn't the tax rates, it is the fact that we pay more and get less for our tax dollars with every additional year that our government borrows hundreds of billions of dollars. It hurts our economy most when politicians consistently cut and change our tax-rates for short-term political gain, again..people want more consistency in the rates not tinkering. If the rates work and the government finally brings in surpluses, the tax policy isn't at fault. People grow sick of the cycle in which rates are raised out of necessity, and later lowered again for mere political gain. Nothing would help workers and businesses more than to have a tax code that always remained constant, allowed for longterm financial planning, and brought in sufficient revenue necessary for financing the basic services to ensure a stable economy..hence education, infrastructure, and safety nets.