Bottom line time, kids: Win if you can , but face the facts...

[Patriot_Spear]

Howard Dean is currently double digits ahead of his nearest rivals, who are in their own battle for 'first runner-up'.

I appreciate the zeal of the Kerry and Clark camps, but it's time you guys started living in the real world. You're in second place; maybe even third or fourth, depending on the state. Howard Dean is out in front in every race. Your guys are great candidates, but the fact is they aren't running against average joes, but against other proven leaders who have a history of leadership too.

The debate on here is interesting, educational and revealing. I wish your guys the best of luck, I however am working very hard to make sure Dean gets the nomination. If you think you're going to beat Dean by thinly veiled smears here on DU, then knock yourself out; I just spent the evening mailing out fliers. Every sneaky little jab at Dean I see on here, makes me send more money and offer more time to the campaign.

Think about it.

[tedoll78]

1. I love it when..

people claim that their candidate is stronger than Dean. If that candidate is so much stronger, why are they having such a struggle against the Doc? Certainly, there's enough ammo to go after him with. There's a litany of issues he can be attacked on. And yet, at least a 2-to-1 margin with the nearest competitor. Leading by double-digits in major Southern states. You have the ammo. You have the aim. Yet, the juggernaut is still churning. That's a pretty sad statement on the abilities of those other campaigns.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

7. Dean is only ahead because of the media.

They keep reporting that he is ahead.
If they stopped reporting that he is ahead,
then nobody would know if he was ahead or not,
and so he wouldn't be ahead.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. Is that you Rumsfeld?

The Unknown

As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

—Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing

[RevolutionStartsNow]

43. I bought this excellent book

It's called Pieces of Intelligence:The Existential Poetry of Donald H. Rumsfeld

Hilarious.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743255976/qid=1071940184/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-7753775-0715361#product-details

[demvoter]

8. My feelings about Dean

:loveya:

Dems need to stop attacking each other, its been said that the ad that is out now against Dean is by ex-employees of Gephardt.

Trouble is "they" (whoever they are) are saying that he cant win against bu$h, well the repugs are really working overtime to discredit Dean already, they are twisting every word he says.

Will Dean have to continually waste his time defending everything he does and says?? Thats counterproductive.
President Howard Dean has a nice ring to it.
What about a Dean/Clark ticket? Unbeatable? Dean/Hillary ticket :shrug:

:kick: bush out now!

[SahaleArm]

2. The Great Howard thanks you for being subordinate

[tedoll78]

3. Chock-full of logic and facts.

Excellent post!

[SahaleArm]

6. A childish post deserved a childish reply...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamebait

[wyldwolf]

16. The original post is flamebait

... it essentially says that because Dean is in first place, we should all just shut up and all challenger should just go home.

He makes no reference to what he terms "smears" on other candidates - just smears on Dean, leading me to believe it must be OK by him to "smear" other candidates as long as they're not Dean.

Isn't this the way the common freeper defends Bush?

[Patriot_Spear]

27. That's not true and here's why...

I'm just saying slamming my candidate does not make me look at your candidate more favorably- more likely the reverse is true.

I love hearing about Clark or Kerry's stand on the issues, but the negative stuff just runs me off.

I'm trying to say the negative attacks inspire Dean supporters to harder work, it does not dissuade them from their support.

That's all.

[snoochie]

36. No that's not 'just' what you're saying

You said a lot more than 'just' that. Read it again.

[Patriot_Spear]

38. I know what I said. I've made my point.

Not interested in a flame war. thanks and goodbye.

[Zomby Woof]

59. and your negativity in general

Dissuades us from supporting Dean.

[Jerseycoa]

72. We might as well

Move on over to mbali's post where the discussion of just shutting up and going home is being discussed fruitfully and thoughtfully. This one is just more of the same old same old. But I don't support Dean for president: shut up! go home! But I don't think he can win in the general election: shut up! go home! I'm gone.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8620&mesg_id=8620

[KissMyAsscroft]

4. Its called believing in a candidate...

Its going to take a lot of devotion and time to beat Bush.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

9. It really is sad

[Cornus]

10. Just a reminder...

...around this same time twelve years ago Mario Cuomo was also the double digit leader. Look what happened then!

I'm confident that Wesley Clark will eventually surge to the front, be nominated, and be ELECTED as our next president.

However, if this does not occur, I will support whoever the nominee is.

[HFishbine]

11. Cuomo

Never declared his candidacy. He polled high the way that Hillary Clinton polls high now. A Cuomo/Clinton comparrison is more accurate than a Cuomo/Dean comparrison.

We have a real candidate with real populariity in Howard Dean.

[Cornus]

14. My only point...

...at this stage of *the game* was that a double digit lead means little.

We also have a real candidate with real popularity in Wesley Clark and that popularity is increasing daily.

[HFishbine]

18. Increasing daily?

By what measure?

[robbedvoter]

23. How about a Dean Harkin comparison?

Iowa results 1991:
Tom Harkin 76.4%
Uncommitted 11.9%
Paul Tsongas 4.1%
Bill Clinton 2.8%
Bob Kerrey 2.4%
Jerry Brown 1.6%
Others 0.6%

Now that Dean grovels at Big Dog's feet,

"The campaign distributed on-the-record statements Dean had made lauding Clinton, reaching back to 1998 and also offered three more recent examples, and three recent statements Clinton made speaking well of Dean."http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-dems20dec20,1,5870676.story?coll=la-home-politics

should have Clinton dropped out?

[HFishbine]

26. Iowa

is not Dean's home state.

[curse10]

12. Yes, let's all assimilate

how dare we support a candidate other than Dean! I'm surely a bad person and bringing down the democratic party because of it!

[Patriot_Spear]

28. I'm sorry you got offended, but you missed my point.

I like Kerry, but I like Dean better. Slamming Dean will not make me support Kerry. It's that simple.

[Zomby Woof]

62. and praising Dean

Will not make us all drink the Kool-Aid for him either, so why waste the bandwidth?

[curse10]

70. No, I got your point

you told us to "face the facts"

how would you take that? Hmmm?

"Face the facts, Dean is... ." Ya don't like it.

It's comments like these coming from the Dean camp which is the number one reason I will not support him in the primary season.

I like my candidate, I have faith in him, I have hope, and I have time and energy to throw into his campaign. So, perhaps everytime I see a Dean supporter suggest we should all get behind him because polls are like the Oracle of Delphi then I'll donate another hour of my time to the Kerry campaign. (Sorry, I don't have deep pockets like you).

[wyldwolf]

13. So in another words, we should coronate Dean now....? Pure arrogance.

If you think you're going to beat Dean by thinly veiled smears here on DU, then knock yourself out;

Prime example among many of a Dean supporter who feels legitimate questions and concerns about Dean are "smears."

Have you posted this same thought in the Kerry/Clark/Lieberman/etc. threads? Or are "smears" against them OK because they're not in first place?

I just spent the evening mailing out fliers. Every sneaky little jab at Dean I see on here, makes me send more money and offer more time to the campaign.

So, what you're saying is if DU'ers don't stop pointing out what they believe are Dean weaknesses, you're going to empty you bank account for him?

WOW! We could send you across the poverty line - if you're not already there.

It's this kind of arrogance and blind hero-worship from Dean supporters that turned me from Dean.

[OKNancy]

19. I see we are in a mindmeld wyldwolf

Arrogance is the word of the day.

[Patriot_Spear]

29. No. that's not what I said. Please be more honest in your posts.

My point is simply that slamming Dean will not make me support your candidate but merely inspires me to work harder.

[frustrated_lefty]

63. No, what he said was

"I like Kerry, but I like Dean better. Slamming Dean will not make me support Kerry. It's that simple."

Negative campaigning doesn't inspire people.

[Scott Lee]

67. Absolutely not. We wait until Dean is nominated.

And then we remind you on a daily basis of all the hyperbole, sturm and drang you posted against Dean. Those are the wages of trying to erode the Democratic case against Bush hole.

[OKNancy]

15. Oh really?

George Bush is currently double digits ahead of Democrats, who are in their own battle for 'first runner-up'.

I appreciate the zeal of the Democrat camps, but it's time you guys started living in the real world. You're in second place; maybe even third or fourth, depending on the state. Bush is out in front in every race. Your guys are great candidates, but the fact is they aren't running against average joes, but against other proven leaders who have a history of leadership too.

The debate on here is interesting, educational and revealing. I wish your guys the best of luck, I however am working very hard to make sure Bush gets the nomination. If you think you're going to beat Bush by thinly veiled smears here on DU, then knock yourself out; I just spent the evening mailing out fliers. Every sneaky little jab at Bush I see on here, makes me send more money and offer more time to the campaign.

Think about it.

-----------
Maybe other people need to think about it too. I don't expect Democrats to roll over and play dead just because Bush is leading in the polls. Why would I do the same for my candidate, when I think he is a much better man, and has the best possibility of winning against Bush Inc.

Your post only cause supporters of other candidates to be even more dedicated. The opposite of what you intend, I guess. It is hard to tell what your point is really. Dean needs to be saved from some of his groupies.

[incapsulated]

17. Hmmm...

If you Deaniacs are sooo damn sure of overwhelming victory, why the constant need to state this and urge us to drop our own candidates?

:think:

[Patriot_Spear]

31. Please show me where I said that. Otherwise, apologize. n/t

[incapsulated]

44. Said what?

If you are suggesting that this isn't a boast thread, I don't know what else it could be.

As for "dropping our candidates", what other choice other than self-delusion do you offer? Shouldn't I "face the facts"?

[Patriot_Spear]

50. 'Face the facts' = 'negative attacks aren't working'

Was it that cryptic?

Really, I'm not asking anyone to give up their candidate, but I am saying the attacks have the reverse effect of ehat you hope for.

[incapsulated]

52. Cryptic?

No, it's pretty clear to me. You first boast about how we should "face the fact" that Dean is beating everybody and then proceed to whine about "smears".

In other words, a rather common yet still annoying Dean thread.

[GOPBasher]

20. As a Clark supporter,

I agree with you. Dean is definitely the front-runner at this point, and it would be a major upset if someone else won. I'm still going to support Clark in any way I can, but if Dean is the nominee -- and it looks that way at this point -- I'm going to do everything I can to get him elected.

I wish people in every camp would be more civil towards each other. After this primary, we all need to rally behind the Democratic nominee and give him or her our 100% support.

[Patriot_Spear]

30. Let's make it a pact then. If Clark wins, he gets my 110%. n/t

[Tom Rinaldo]

21. I have no problem with your thread Patriot

You are making the point that your guy inspires your confidence and that a whole lot of people are willing to work very hard to get him elected. You are also making the points that Dean is already well ahead, and that since Dean is skillful as a politician, and has leadership skills, no reason to expect that to change. And you are trying to convince people to "face facts" and begin getting on board, much as Gore did. See, I can listen. You are campaigning for Dean is what you're doing. That's the way the game is played. Make your strongest case. What's to complain about? Others make their case too, and when they do no one should complain about that either, agreed?

[Patriot_Spear]

32. No, Tom, It's really a plea to return to platfom and policy debate...

...Instead of the smear campaign currently in force. I've even found myself drug a little into it- and that was wrong.

[incapsulated]

47. Oh, please..

"Win if you can but face the facts.." in the header and "Howard Dean is currently double digits ahead of his nearest rivals, who are in their own battle for 'first runner-up'." as the first sentence. Doesn't sound like an invitation to a "policy debate" to me. :eyes:

[robbedvoter]

22. With arrogance like that, who needs facts? Media gave you the W treatment

and you guys became W amd friends...Quite frightening really.

[snoochie]

37. "The W treatment"

Think it'll stop once the GE is on?

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. Al Gore! I didn't know you were a member of DU!

I didn't take your advice the last time you recommended we all drop our candidates and support Dean and I'm sure not going to follow your advice this time. :grr:

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[deminflorida]

25. Dean supporters please study recent political history:

"When Bill Clinton lost the 1992 New Hampshire Primary, historical precedent said his presidential hopes were dashed. No candidate had ever lost the first primary in the nation and been elected president.

Still, Clinton had shown uncommon resiliency. He had already weathered the Gennifer Flowers adultery scandal and allegations of dodging the Vietnam draft. Expected to lose by double digits, Clinton pointed to his eight-point loss as proof he was the "comeback kid." As primaries moved to the south, he regained momentum and seized the nomination in a strong Super Tuesday showing."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/election/iowa-newhampshire/nh-history.html

Also note that Bob Dole lost in New Hampshire to Pat Buchanan in 1996, yet went on to win the nomination for the Republicans.

http://quest.cjonline.com/stories/021200/gen_scarolina.shtml

Please also note that John McCain won in New Hampshire and lost to Bush in 2000.

"GOP Sen. John McCain discusses his double digit victory in New Hampshire and the campaign for the presidential nomination."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/election/iowa-newhampshire/newhampshire.html

The race really turned for McCain in 2000 when he lost in South Carolina to Bush because of an alleged slander campaign by the Bush camp against McCain.

http://www.politics1.com/vote-sc.htm



Ya'll have a fight on your hands come Feb. 3, 2004.

[Duder]

35. Psst... national polls

In nine of the 10 contested nomination fights since 1980, the candidate leading in the last national poll before the Iowa caucuses won his party's nomination. (Gary Hart being the exception)

In nine of the 10 contested races since 1980, the candidate who raised the most money before the actual election year went on to win the nomination, according to figures assembled by William G. Mayer, a Northeastern University political scientist. (Treasury Secretary John Connally was the exception).

[snoochie]

34. "Resistance is useless, you will be assimilated"

Is that the spirit you were trying to capture?

Bleagh

[Clark4Prez]

40. This is not the party of coronations

Last time I checked, this party believed that EVERY vote counted. It's nice to know that I don't have to bother with all that annoying one person, one vote non-sense.

But now I can relax, because the elitist insiders have decided my candidate for me. Why, we don't even need to go through all of this primary non-sense. I have an even better idea, why don't we do away with the general elections, too. In fact, we can just declare him president for life!

Yes sir, democracy was always a pain in the ass anyway, what do we need it for?

"Think about it", indeed I have. And I for one, still believe in democracy, I still believe in the process, and no one, Repubican or Democrat is going to take that from me without a fight!

[Patriot_Spear]

41. Clearly you missed my point-

Please do keep fighting- I hope with integrity and honor- but don't expect Dean supporters to do less than you, particularly when our candidate is attacked.

Like we say down here, 'if you wanna' fight me, you better bring a sandwich and flashlight; cause you're gonna be here a while.'

[Renew Deal]

42. And like Clark said

we are going to "beat the shit" out of you. The early frontrunner never wins. Just ask president Tsongas.

[Patriot_Spear]

45. Two words-

Bring it.

:kick:

[Tom Rinaldo]

46. Fine.

Couln't resist the opportunity to follow that last post with a one word reply lol.

[Patriot_Spear]

48. You seem like a pretty decent guy Tom...

Surely you can see why we should be discussing the merits of our guys, rather than trying to tear each other down?

Especially when, at the end of the day, we're on the same team.

[Renew Deal]

49. But that's what you are trying to do with your original post.

You want others to abandon ship and worship Dean. Not going to happen just yet.

[Patriot_Spear]

51. Sorry, you've got it all wrong.

Support whoever you want as much as you want- but my point is that the negative campaigning on here isn't working- slam Dean and I contribute more money. Slam Dean and I write another letter to Iowa. Get the point?

I'd like to hear about Clark's idea's, but Clark smearing Dean- I'll just turn off the TV before I listen to that.

[Renew Deal]

53. When did Clark smear Dean?

Did I miss something?

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Rinaldo]

56. Us Clark supporters don't get too much air time on TV

So you probably don't have to worry about turning off your TV lol. Forget us, but do watch Clark. He is much more articulate than any of us supporters.

Of course I agree with your basic premise. Somewhere else I reminded (not that it was an original insight or anything) a Dean supporter who was complaining about attack dog Clark supporters, that the shoe is very often on the other foot. And I can find numerous threads to support that assertion also. But I will do my best to stick to disscussing issues and honest perceptions about the relative strengths and weaknesses of the potential Democratic Party candiates.

[Patriot_Spear]

58. I agree Tom, Clark has a lot of interesting things to say.

I was mainly responding the attacks on this board.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

61. damn

:spank:

[5thGenDemocrat]

71. Zomby

I do too.
Anyone who says I have to be on the same page as Dean at the end of the day is delusional. I'm not only not on the same page, I'm not even in the same library.
I've said I'll vote, most reluctantly, for Dean next November -- but that's it. I don't like him, I don't trust him and I won't support him in any way except to vote for him.
That's all a Dem has to do to be a Dem -- vote for the candidate.
And I wonder, sometimes, whether a party that would nominate such a person as Dean is still the Democratic Party I grew up in and have loyally supported through six Presidential elections (this will be number seven).
That's really a question I have to answer for myself -- I've never left the party, but has the party left me? And the Dean backers telling me that I must assimilate make me want to take my single vote, run screaming for the hills, and hide until Election Day has passed.
Maybe I still will. The right to vote is also the right not to.
I'm 47. I can't be drafted and my military obligations were fulfilled a quarter of a century ago. I own my house, the taxes are nearly all paid, and I have enough independent income to eat and to keep the heat and lights on no matter who the President is or what the job market is.
I doubt I'm on any of Johnny Asscrust's lists and I don't lose sleep over the thought of hearing jackboots stomping up to my front door.
I worry a lot less about what happens in the other 49 states than I do about what happens in Michigan -- and Michigan has a Dem governor and two Dem Senators. My congressman is a Dem. My state rep is a Dem.
So I should automatically vote for Dean to save us from Dopey? Great, but then who's going to save us from Dean?
John
Like I said, I have questions. My gut reaction is to take care of matters here in the Great Lakes State and let the country take care of itself. Bush? Dean? I'll survive either way.

[Mairead]

75. "I don't like him, I don't trust him, but I'll vote for him"

That seems counterproductive, to me. The analogy that occurs to me is you go to buy a car and the salesman offers you something that's uncomfortable, unreliable, gets lousy mileage, and is expensive. Instead of saying 'show me something better or I'll go next door', you say 'jeez, this is an awful car. It won't meet my needs at all, but I'll buy it'.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cornus]

65. Why should s/he stop?

Just because you choose not to read the posts does NOT mean that the rest of us also make that choice.

[Zomby Woof]

66. thank you!

I post my comments for the enjoyment/annoyance of everyone reading the thread, not necessarily any one person.

[neuvocat]

68. Well then I really hope for your sake

Bill Clinton doesn't endorse someone other than Dean. However here are some facts for you:

Dean never returned ANY of the contributions from polipundit.com, a conservative website. He never annouced that he would do so.

Dean essentially insulted Clinton, the most successful Democratic President in 50 years.

Hillary didn't agree with Gore's opinion of the democratic party when he endorsed Dean. Whether you agree or disagree with her, she is still a very popular senator.

Linda Bloodworth-Thomason, a personal friend of Clinton, made Wesley Clark's biography that you can see on his site.

Clinton and Clark both are from Arkansas, both are Rhodes Scholars.

Clinton exhonerated Clark during the Hague trial.

Clinton said Clark would make a good President.

Think about it.

[Patriot_Spear]

69. Clinton is a one of the smartest Presidents we've ever had...

Do you really think he's going to polarize the campaign by isolating the front-runner?

It's a fair question.

[neuvocat]

74. So was Gore.

Except he happened to marginalize everyone EXCEPT Dean.

[windansea]

73. Earth to patriot

The more you tell us "kids" that Dean is inevitable...the more we will point out your candidate's credibility, electability, and lack of experience.

These same "jabs" and "thinly veiled smears" are the same criticisms you might see if you were "living in the real world" ...the world where there are some other viable candidates and not one vote has been cast.

think about it

[MoonRiver]

76. This looks like a 'thinly veiled' threat,

to do what??? Contribute more money to Dean, lol! Go for it! If he wins the nomination I want him to have lots of money to beat the *! But I just gave some more to Clark's campaign, so I guess its tit for tat.