How does Dean defend the "skiing controversy"?

[election_2004]

I'm very excited about Howard Dean's presidential candidacy (especially because I was recommending him as a candidate way back in 2001), but I have a question regarding if he wins the nomination...

What would Dean need to do to defend himself against the attacks that Rove & Company will inevitably spew about how Dean went skiing after receiving a deferment from serving in Vietnam?

I think that, once in office, Dean would do a good job in overseeing foreign policy and national security. But as far as the preliminary presidential field goes, I think that national security and foreign policy are two of the biggests areas where Kerry has Dean beat.

If nominated by the Democratic Party, how should Dean respond to Rove's mantra of "Bush has more foreign policy and national security leadership experience...Dean has none"?

And how does he counter all the photos that the Bush campaign will be plastering across TV screens of Dean skiing during Vietnam?

Rove will obviously try to say something like, "While our country was at war, Howard Dean was off skiing."

[maddezmom]

1. Rove will have to explain AWOL n/t

[Bucky]

52. No he won't. This is how the attack will go

Rove doesn't say this stuff personally. He's too busy calling Bob Novak with new non-quotables. What this line of attack does is not to wedge Dean supporters or Democrats away. Of course we don't buy this BS.

This line of smear will come from 3rd parties, not the white house of Bush campaign office. These non-candidates will be free to spread whatever rumors or insinuations they like--mostly along the lines of "faked his physical and went skiing for a year." But no Karl finger prints will show up on this lie.

What this issue does is not wedge out Democrats from Dean, but shut off Dean's message from patriotic swing voters. It's a cultural tag--dodged Vietnam while good boys died for your right to go skiing. This will crank up the base without Rove lifting a finger. But more importantly, it will work to keep Dean's message from getting through to any current soft support for Bush.

People who are nervous about their neighbor's daughter going over to Iraq and understand the oil connection as much as they understand the human rights argument are open to hearing reasons why we need to turn Iraq over to Iraqis and start getting out. But if they hear our messenger "dodged" Vietnam to spend a whole year skiing, they won't listen to any attacks on their president.

This is about shoring up Bush's soft base, not about hurting Dean's unity. This will be very effective despite being total BS.

[NWHarkness]

2. Well first of all, where was George?

And, to the specific question, the fact that one has a bad back does not mean one is disabled. But would you want to stake your life on another soldier's bad back not going out in the middle of combat?

[funky_bug]

3. Give me a BREAK already!!!

Rove is going to use that line against Dean? Puleez... he won't touch draft dodging with a ten-foot poll. At least Dean KNOWS where he was, as opposed to the Chimps selective memory loss during his supposed time of service.

Frankly, I'm sorry that Dean took the deferrment. He's strong on a lot of issues, and this just keeps getting him kicked around. Hell, I've used it myself when backed into a corner. But make no bones about it, Clark can use that line, as can many other Dem runners, but if Dean gets the nod, Rove will NOT use that line. He's evil, not stupid.

And if Dean gets the nod and Rove TRIES to use that line, every Clark-supporter-turned-Dean-supporter from here to eternity and back will kick the living shit out of him.

[bitchkitty]

29. I like this woman. n/t

[bitchkitty]

30. I like this woman.

on edit: and I hate this damned keyboard!!! Sorry guys.

[mbali]

53. You're assuming that Bush's AWOL status is not already out there

Most voters already know about it and, unfortunately, either don't believe it (after all, they did see all of those pictures of W in a flight suit standing next to a big plane) or they don't care. I think that is because when the information first came out back in 2000, most people just weren't as concerned about a candidate's military history. Within that context, they processed it and then dismissed it as just not all that important. After 9/11 they were sufficiently comforted by Bush's strutting and preening and bullying to feel that he does have what it takes to be Commander-in-Chief - after all, most of these voters were scared shitless and wanted to feel that someone was protecting them and Bush makes them feel that he's doing just that.

Sadly, all of the damage that's going to be done to Bush on this issue has already been done. He's not going to lose any Republicans or moderates he hasn't already lost over this issue. Military service - or the lack thereof - is a predictor of one's ability to serve as Commander-in-Chief. It means little else in the electoral context. Once one becomes president, it has little resonance. Of course, many of us believe that Bush's behavior during Vietnam says more - that it is an indication of his moral bankruptcy. But again, most moderates have already come to terms with Bush's moral structure and are fine with it. His AWOL status is not going to change their minds at this point if it hasn't already.

Dean, on the other hand, is still an unknown commodity to these folks and they won't be as likely to give Dean a free ride on this. And, as AP explained, it won't be Rove - or anyone directly connected to the Bush campaign - who brings this up. It will be the Novaks and the Matthews and the other media whores who would like nothing better than to try to make Dean look bad.

[Padraig18]

4. Rove won't touch that with a 10 foot pole

One word: AWOL.

'nuff said.

[funky_bug]

7. Wowza

Padraig, you and I actually agree on something for once. Let the lovefest begin :*

[Padraig18]

9. I'm quite lovable, actually!

In real life, you'd adore me, and vice-versa. :loveya:

[funky_bug]

12. Fellow Dem...

... I'll be proud to serve beside you if your guy gets the nod... we all get testy from time to time. I am NOT above the fray of counter-attacking, so accept my apology for sparring with you from time to time. Truce?

[Padraig18]

15. No blood, no foul, love!

:hug:

[Military Brat]

5. Dean has a non-fused vertebra, is that correct?

So, you want to be in combat and have the man beside you suddenly keel over in pain because his back goes out from a congenital deformity? Such a person is a danger to himself and his fellow soldiers. He can fall on any ski slope and hurt himself or put himself out of commission entirely, it's no big deal, because he isn't endangering anyone.

There are reasons why people are given a 4-F rating.

Regarding Dean, this is a non-issue.


Edited for clarity.

[funky_bug]

8. Great response

One of the things troubling me about Dean is his deferrment. Your explanation of that is both reasonable and convincing.

Thanks!O8)

[DemBones DemBones]

34. Dean wasn't 4-F, he was 1-Y, an important difference.

And the reasons he was 1-Y had to do with a letter and skeletal X-rays provided by a Manhattan orthopedist who was allegedly a friend of the elder Howard Dean (this one's dad.)

Dean has admitted that 1) he didn't want to go to Viet Nam and 2) he probably could have served. Do you disbelieve those two statements by Dean?

It's possible Dean's back could have gone out in combat but I think you can say that of anyone. Most back injuries are muscular, not skeletal, as any doctor will tell you. Back injuries (and I'm talking about backs "going out," not broken bones, just everyday "bad back" incidents) are painful, debilitating, and pretty common.

John F. Kennedy had more serious back problems -- the Army rejected him when he tried to enlist during WW II. He used his dad's influence to get in the Navy and became a hero in the Pacific. But of course that was a popular war.

Remembering the times, I think Dean did what a lot of guys did: found a good way to avoid military service, and good on him, but it makes it tricky for him to go against Bush now. Bush did serve, even if it was in a safe unit of the guard which his daddy got him into, and the stories of his refusing a medical exam/ drug test and go AWOL aren't exactly accepted as fact by the media or most Americans.

Perception is everything.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[funky_bug]

11. Whether or not that be the case...

and for the record, most of us DO believe that war was bullshit, there WAS a draft, and many felt obligated to answer the call. Let's not forget, many who answered that call did so because they felt an obligation to. It does not speak poorly of those who deferred anymore than it speaks poorly of those who didn't.

Posted in love,
R~

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[funky_bug]

17. Agree wholeheartedly

Dean owes NO apologies for his decision.

My only point was that blasting Dean for his deferrment is wrong in equal proportion to blasting those who served. Many felt they had no business being there... but a draft is a draft. Many had no choice, many made the choice, many suffered the consequences.

I'm thankful that there are men and women willing to die for my freedom. I wouldn't DARE slap their faces for it...or the faces of the families they leave behind, or the faces of their grieving loved ones when they don't come home.

[Clark4Prez]

10. It's a non-issue and he should ignore it

Its BS, just like Clinton dodged the draft, he should just ignore it. The draft dodger thing doesn't have legs with this pResident in office.

[election_2004]

14. Ok, I understand the congenital deformity part...

But won't voters still ask, "Why did he go skiing if he had a non-fused vertebra in his back?...he was putting himself at great risk!"

Part of the reason I'm asking this question is because I'm revamping the Dean bio page on my website, and I want to address these issues.

Where is the evidence for Bush's "selective memory" and AWOL status during Vietnam?

[hedda_foil]

19. Yeah, he could have hurt himself very badly.

He was 21 years old. Kids do dumb things like that. Fortunately, he didn't wipe out and destroy his back. But if he had, only he would have been hurt (possibly permanently) ... he didn't put an entire unit at risk as could easily have been the case if his back went in Nam.

[janx]

22. My brother got a deferment because he had flat feet.

I kid you not. My S/O got one because he had asthma at the time.

What some people don't realize about a full-blown draft is that the military has one heck of a lot of young men to choose from.

[DemBones DemBones]

36. Both flat feet and asthma are standard reasons to

disqualify someone for military service. You can't sneak flat feet past the examining medics but I knew guys who served despite having asthma -- they wanted to serve and used medications to pass the exam.

As I posted before, JFK got into the Navy with his back problems (and Addison's disease), thanks to his father's influence. That was after the Army rejected him. But WW II was different, both because more men wanted to fight and because more men were needed so they bent the rules sometimes. My FIL was a young man but had high blood pressure when he was called up. He wasn't anxious to go, either, having a wife and kids already. At the physical, they had him lie down until they could get a "normal" BP reading and certify him as fit for service! One of my uncles, unmarried and wanting to serve, but having flat feet, was rejected over and over.

[Lobo_13]

33. The answer is easy

First to clear a few things up.

It wasn't a congenital defect. He suffered from back pain because he ran track in high school. It developed a couple of years before he graduated, he had it looked at, and it turned out that the shock from running had screwed up his back.

He wasn't 4-F. He was 1-Y. which means he could have been called up in time of national emergency.

Third, I've talked to some military people (my county coordinator is an recently ex-marine) and they agree with me. There is a world of difference between going down a mountain a dozen times and twelve hour forced marches through jungle with an eighty pound pack. He probably wouldn't have made it through basic.

It didn't take much to get a deferment, as Rush Limbaugh has proven.

[Cheswick2.0]

37. it is clear you will continue to ask even if people don't

try this one : he was a private citizen it's none of your business why he chose to go skiing.

[Printer70]

16. This will not be an issue

While our country was at war, Bush was nowhere to be found. Little known fact: Wes Clark tried to avoid service but was unsuccessful at getting out.

[maddezmom]

20. really?

where did you hear that?

[Printer70]

38. Hardball Interview

eom

[BeyondGeography]

23. Trash like that

ruins an otherwise completely civil thread.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

27. Evidence?

[Printer70]

39. matthews said it on hardball

and clark did not refute it.

[LandOLincoln]

31. Rot.

Wes Clark left Oxford with a year to go on his Rhodes scholarship in order to serve in Vietnam.

And you (who probably weren't even born yet) can wax sanctimonious all you want about "illegal and immoral" wars, but don't you dare insult a man who believed otherwise and was willing to put his life on the line for his beliefs.

And for the record, I was against the war and put MY life on the line (in Nixon's Washington in 1970) to demonstrate against it.

[Printer70]

40. Then when Clark was called on it...

...during an interview on Hardball, why didn't he refute it?

[LandOLincoln]

43. Say whut??

You claim that Clark tried to get out of serving in Vietnam but "was unsuccessful," is that right?

You also claim this subject came up in Clark's Hardball appearance, and that Clark couldn't refute it, right again?

I'm thinking you didn't see the same Hardball that the rest of the planet did, therefore you must be from another planet.

Case closed. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Jerseycoa]

49. What next?

I can't see what that person is saying, so I'm glad you repeated it. This is the biggest crock so far.

[oasis]

45. I saw the recent Hardball interview/w Clark. There was NO mention of this.

[Fleshdancer]

18. Rove and Bush didn't fight in Vietnam either. n/t

[baggypants]

21. After Pres. Clinton....this is a non issue.

[zulchzulu]

24. It's what the issue takes away that makes it bad

Dean (if he was the nominee), would not be able to bring up any antics of Bush landing on aircraft carriers or wearing cute military outfits. You know that's going to happen.

Put it this way.

Bush can land on an aircraft carrier with the same regalia he wore (and will unless another candidate like Kerry or Clark are the opposition) and it would be untouchable to Dean unless he wants to have the skiing story brought up in an endless series of commercials. Dean could go into attack mode about Bush going AWOL, but he would look like a fool if he did.

[BeyondGeography]

26. Exactly right

We Democrats can't help ourselves on certain cultural cues. We have rich-kid politicians who scream about the deterioration of public schools, and send their kids to private schools, who take antiwar stances (perfectly defensible), but seem more interested in saving their own skin than in serving their country.

This (plus the religion issue) results in a significant portion of America tuning us out. In the post 9/11 environment, I find it amazing that the party is seriously contemplating the nomination of the ex-Governor of tiny Vermont, who has a good head on his shoulders, but who gains us nothing in terms of expanding the cultural base of our party and who has zero credibility in foreign policy and national defense.

The strategy appears to be to win by expanding the party's natural base rather than by appealing to independents. Tell me the last time that worked for the Democrats in a national election?

[ozone_man]

25. While Dean was skiing,

Bush was snorting coke or was that after he was AWOL? I get the chronology confused.

I suppose from a technical level, Dean can easily explain that the deep powder out west was back friendly, while the icy boiler plate down east is injurious to the those with even the strongest backs.

Clinton had no foreign policy experience, was a draft dodger and governor of a small state. Dean has no skeletons in his closet, no Gennifer Flowers or endless bimbo eruptions like Clinton. I think it is time to take back "family values" from the Republicans, something that Clinton put us back 20 years on. Dean has got the squeaky clean, two doctors in the house, two cats in the yard, soccer/hockey dad, family values thing that nobody can compete against.

Dean does make a few verbal gaffes here and there, but compared to the Bush dislexicon, I wouldn't even call them gaffes, it's just plain talking.

[isbister]

47. Re: While Dean was skiing,"

Dean has no skeletons in his closet

Didn't a tape come out this week of dean saying bush wouldn't be beaten (or something like that)? That's a skeleton the republicans will use.

Just like Clark's "I love republicans" stuff, the commercials have probably already been made and the airtime purchased.

[slinkerwink]

28. Bush went AWOL for two years-----I don't think this will be addressed

by Rove at all with Dean's skiing in Colorado for a year after Dean was given a medical deferment by the Army. Dean never went AWOL but Bush did.

[bowens43]

32. How is this a controversy?

Is there a law that says when the military rejects you can't go skiing?

[gulliver]

35. It's not what Bush can say; it's what Dean can't say.

Wes Clark can go on the offense on AWOL Bush right in the middle of a nationally televised debate. If our nominee is Dean, both he and Bush will have to keep quiet about Vietnam.

[DemBones DemBones]

41. Military service will seem more important in 2004

because of the "war on terra." I doubt Clinton, who didn't serve, could be elected now. Clark and Kerry are the untouchable candidates on this issue, having both served in combat in Viet Nam.

Dennis Kucinich was exempt because of a heart murmur, Gephardt served in the Guard, Lieberman had student deferments (and, I guess, lucked out in the lottery as Clinton did), Edwards was too young, CMB was exempt as a woman. Sharpton is younger, too, being 49 now he wasn't eligible until 1973, I think. As far as I know, none of them did anything wrong with respect to the draft , but all are at some disadvantage when Bush's Guard experience, and his more recent experience as Commander in Chief are brought up. Dean's at more of a disadvantage, while Kerry and Clark have some edge on Bush.

I expect the GOP to play up Bush's "presidential expertise" more than what he did in the Viet Nam era, but I think there'll be hints about the past. After all, those of us who oppose this continued occupation/ war against Iraqi guerillas see echoes of Viet Nam.

[OBrien]

42. he can't

this will not go away

[Hep]

44. Back to this again?

Jesus!

One can say that about Dean, and one can say while the country was at war, no one knew where Bush was. We knew where he was supposed to be, but he wasn't there.

If this is the best shit anyone can come up with, this GE will be a piece of cake.

[isbister]

46. Dean went skiing

They might do something like that but... why should they?

If Dean is selcted to represent the Dems, would he have the courage to ask where bush was during the "lost" national guard time?

Since Dean at least has medical records (where george has no records), maybe that would be a good tact to take against the inevitible left-wing, pinko, coward, label the republicans will try.

Dean can hold up his records at a debate and repeat the line Ted Kennedy used on bush I.... "where was George?" (albeit about a diffferent matter)

I'll be darned if I wouldn't love to see bush try to answer that in a debate. Or anywhere for that matter.

[Endangered Specie]

50. That would be a good debate question...

"Explain your draft-dodging in 1 minute", then take 1 minute to rebute (Dean cannons, Fire).

IT is possible to be able to do physical activity and not be wanted by the army... Like me... who has an extra bone in the left foot, prevents me from running on hard surfaces. That would most assuredly get me failed in an army physical. But I assure you, I can still ski.

[Padraig18]

51. Exactly!

I have nerve-damage in my right arm which limits my grip strength, and I also have Raynaud's Syndrome, which would earn me a 4-F; I can assure you, however, that I can ski just fine, and do all manner of other strenuous physical activities.

[mouse7]

48. With this...

http://college3.nytimes.com/guests/articles/2003/11/22/1126070.xml

Read the last paragraphs. You'll see that Dean still had over a year in his student deferment. You'll see that Dean was processing to voluntarily enter Officer Candidate School when he took the military entrance physical that he ended up failing. You'll see that Dean did not know at the time that he took the phsical that he would end up failing the physical.

You'll see that Dean did not dodge the draft. You'll see Dean chose to volutarily try to enter the military in order to get assigned Officer Candidate School, rather than risk whatever random assignment the draft might produce. Dean was clearly not real happy he was about spend the next several years of his life in the military, but he was willing to do it anyway. It's NOT Dean's fault that the military chose to not allow people with Dean's medical condition into the military.