Dean Supporters, do you denounce the Dean campaigns flyer stunt?

[Clark Can WIN]

When this was first broke by a Clark supporter on this forum, some Dean supporters did everything but outright accuse him of making the whole thing up. That DU'er was told independent confirmation was needed. It was dismissed as a dirty trick against Dean , something he was "not stupid/low/desperate enough to do" Post #6
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=75448

It was called the work of freepers. Post #95

The flyers were denounced as fake and "desperation by Clark supporters". Post #165

Reapeatedly the cries came for proof and the insinuations that it was a tactic of Karl Rove.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=76385 Posts #10, 21

It was pawned off onto poor Kerry and Gep. Post #62

Now that the Dean campaign has admitted to being behind these tactics, the same ones labeled desperate, republican and Karl Rovian, do you still denounce them?
http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/pindell/2003/december/1_8clark.shtml


I must ask, who among you would not be screaming to the rafters if, let say, the Lieberman campaign dispatched groups of supporters (yes Virginia they do exist) to Dean campaign events with negative campaign flyers?

Is it hypocritical for Dean to call for an end to "gotcha" and attack politics while he is clearly still engageed in it?

In all fairnesss I must point out that some very reasonable and kind Dean supporters did say that they were against this kind of campaign tactic. I agree. I would be very dissapointed if the Clark campaign had pulled this. And although I've had run ins with some Dean supporters, I can't believe that the majority of them would approve of this negative campaigning.

[dsc]

1. The people who did this got fired, right?

Would you have liked them shot instead?

[YellowDawgDemocrat]

3. Nope. Dean supporters may want to distance themselves from me on this

I'm a seasoned campaigner and never give any ammunition to opponents. I've participated in much worse and will again.

[Padraig18]

5. LOL!

Are you from Chicago, by chance, like I am? :evilgrin:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

31. Also seasoned here - but I will leave campaigns if they get sleazy

and I've worked in Chicago politics. I will NOT support a candidate who has no integrity.

I check out a candidate thoroughly before I start working for them. I've only made 1 mistake....

[Printer70]

117. Flyers were accurate; Clark was Republican and pro-war

There is nothing wrong with them whatsoever. I'm sorry Clark can't take it.

[ClarkGraham2004]

133. You are yellow, that's for sure.

[mouse7]

144. No... but I deplore stuff like trhis

[DoveTurnedHawk]

11. No One Got Fired, It Was Dean's NATIONAL SPOKESPEOPLE

Who were passing out this flier, among others.

Dean's campaign endorsed it, right after saying they were running such a positive campaign.

Hypocrites extraordinaire.

DTH

[Padraig18]

16. Hypocrites?

Not a thing in the flyer wasn't true.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

19. Hey, I Thought You Put Me on Ignore?

They're hypocrites for claiming they're running a positive campaign. In fact, it was the same Dean spokesman who claimed Dean was running a positive campaign, as was handing out the fliers, and lied yet again about Clark being a Republican.

They're also liars, but that's a separate issue. They lied yet again about Clark being a Republican, for at least the third time since Clark entered the race, despite being called on it.

Dean lies just to stay on message. Imagine what he'd do if he became President, and the stakes are so much higher. Lies everywhere.

Dean is running an incredibly negative campaign. Unlike Clark, who has always stayed positive, even in his response to Dean's negative fliers.

DTH

[Padraig18]

21. Spin ballerina, spin.

A rather one-sided and distinctly myopic view of things.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

27. Ooh, Good Comeback, Padraig

You continue to dodge the "positive campaign" Dean is running, according to his own spokesperson Enright.

It's very telling. I'm sorry your chosen candidate has exposed himself to be such a hypocrite. I'm sorry your chosen candidate's campaign manager is a morally bankrupt thief.

Yet you still support Dean. Hmm.

DTH

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

42. I Hate Dodging, Because I Value Intellectual Honesty

I'll decline to say anything about your other comment, because hey, I'm so polite and civil. ;-)

DTH

[Padraig18]

45. LOL.

Ummm, OK. :P

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark Can WIN]

54. Padraig18 you were among those who said you would condemn

these tactics. And on edit I see that you have. Kudos to you and thanks.

[Padraig18]

74. It's a poor technique. IMO.

I can think of much more effective ways to spend time and money.:)

[maddezmom]

18. no they did not

http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/pindell/2003/december/1_8clark.shtml
~snip~
Dean campaign spokesman Matthew Gardner previously confirmed that Dean volunteers were at Clark events Tuesday and Wednesday distributing information about the ret.- general.
~snip~

Clark defended his tactics as “genuine” while dismissing Dean’s as political.

“It’s worse than politics,” he said. “It’s not the right kind of politics because what we want to be doing is talking about the issues...”

But Gardner, however, said the Dean campaign was standing by its Clark literature.

Both Clark and Dean are scheduled to campaign in New Hampshire Friday and Saturday.


http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/pindell/2003/december/1_8clark.shtml

[Clark Can WIN]

51. I hadn't heard that they were fired. But if that's true

Why does the campaign spokesperson stand behind the action instead of denouncing?

Link supplied above.

[maddezmom]

55. the Iowa guys got fired not NH n/t

[democratreformed]

146. Yep, this is correct n/t

[Padraig18]

2. I wrote the campaign, and asked that they stop, if they were doing it.

I also said here that I thought it was a poor campaign technique.

[maddezmom]

24. so do you think it was a good idea or bad idea? n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

57. Yep. I said the other day that I hoped they kept it up.....

Look at all the bad NATIONAL PR they got. That - for maybe a few local votes.

[KaraokeKarlton]

4. I work in NH and haven't seen any flyers

Frankly, I'd have to actually see one of these flyers before I'd either agree or disagree with the content on them. I haven't seen the flyer, so no, I won't denounce them.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

8. I may have missed it...

Anyone have the text of the "Dean" flyers?

[wtmusic]

9. I've seen a partial image of one

but not the complete quote. Why won't someone post a scan of the whole flyer?


:shrug:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

12. Yes, please.

Preferably with a photo of Dean handing it out!

[Clark Can WIN]

73. so are you on record then as believing that negative campaigning

at a fellow candidates event is OK? Aren't you one of the ones that blamed these kind of tactics on Rove or something like that?

If the Clark campaign had done this I would be bitterly dissapointed and I wouldn't give a crap what was on it.

[KaraokeKarlton]

109. I'm on record as saying show me some fucking proof

or quit yer bitchin'. I thought I was pretty clear in my last post, really.

:shrug:

[Clark Can WIN]

115. <<<<<< Hitting head against wall

The DEAN CAMPAIGN SPOKESPERSON owning up to the stunt is not PROOF????????????????

You need Dean to send you a letter in his own blood or what?

Or is this a case of
http://www.nancys-store.com/hear,see,speack%20no%20evil%20gargoyle.jpg
minus the last one.

[KaraokeKarlton]

121. What part of "I haven't seen the flyer" did you not understand?

If you think I'm going to denounce a flyer I've never seen you're wasting your time and keystrokes. :shrug:

[Clark Can WIN]

126. Ah, so it would be the second gargoyle

And if you read the original post carefully, you will notice it is THE STUNT ITSELF,.......... THE TACTICS that Dean supporters attributed to the GOP, Clark, Kerry, Karl Rove and every other boogey man they have........... that are called into question.

[KaraokeKarlton]

129. Well gosh golly gee willickers Mr. "ClarkCanWin"

You're stomping your feet up and down saying that Dean's campaign passed out flyers about Clark that was filled with lies. You are asking Dean supporters to condemn the act of handing out these flyers because YOU claim they had lies in them. Sorry honey muffin pookie bear BUT you have NO right to ask anyone to condemn something as "lies" unless you show them the flyer in question.

End of story.

Kiss Kiss

[Clark Can WIN]

141. ,

I love them all.

[Padraig18]

111. I'll go on record here and now as saying...

... that telling the truth about your opponent is not 'negative campaigning. You married Clark, baggage and all.

Take a deep breath and remember this: we're not being 1/100th as nasty as KKKarl rove will be.

:)

[Clark Can WIN]

122. The question was about the stunt itself for starters

If Kerry supporters show up at a Dean rally tomorrow and distribute information about his draft dodging and flip flopping you would be just fine with that then?

I consider that factual but I also understand that it is negative campaigning. If Dean wants others to stop bringing up his past and pointing out his flaws he should quit his sneaky little low flying hijinks like this. Ya just can't have it both ways Gov.

[KaraokeKarlton]

125. Um, we have been putting up with this kind of stuff for months

If you can't handle the heat when your guy is a few notches down on the totem pole you'll fall apart if Clark ever actually gets close enough to Dean to be competitive. Better toughen up that skin, bucko.

[Clark Can WIN]

127. I'm ready and I actually find it helpful for the Clark campaign

Makes Dean look desperate, hypocritical and small. :bounce:

Sorry you're stuck defending petty crap like this. If it's really not that important, you should move on. :hi:

[KaraokeKarlton]

130. Um, I find it rather ironic that someone

making an issue out of this would say "Sorry you're stuck defending patty crap like this."

Telling, very telling indeed.

Funny you mention the word "hypocritical" too...really, you crack me up so bad I think I'm gonna piss my britches.

[Clark Can WIN]

132. I think I'm gonna piss my britches

somehow I am unsuprised.

[KaraokeKarlton]

135. That happens when you get laughing too hard

like I am laughing at this whole inane thread!

[KittyWampus]

6. May I Say Denunciation Threads Give Me The Creeps?

When the ad that attacked Dean happened it was like the freaking McCarthy Era or something.

Thread after thread telling me to denounce this and that... heck, not just Denounce but to do so "vigoursly and vocifersously".

Anyhow, the worst probablly hasn't even happened yet :(

or maybe, it has :)

[Padraig18]

7. II must admit that...

... I am a bit disappointed at the delicate sensibilities of some folks for a vigorous campaign; I'm afraid they wont last 10 minutes against KKKarl...

[Clark Can WIN]

77. You mean like the ones crying to McCauliffe

to make everybody stop picking on him while he continues to attack others while at the same time telling the press he's running a positive campaign.

That thing spins so fast you need an airsick bag.

[Padraig18]

96. The truth is not 'negative campaigning'.

You 'married' him, so you married his 'baggage', too. Welcome to the real world of politics! :)

[Clark Can WIN]

103. I forgot that only truth and sunshine falls from the lips

of the great one.:eyes:

Strange that now that the truth has hit the fan you've changed your tune.

[Padraig18]

104. No change.

I didn't 'marry' Clark--- you did.:)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. "Clark...

... defended his tactics as “genuine” while dismissing Dean’s as political.

Says it all.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

13. It Does Indeed

The truth usually does.

DTH

[Padraig18]

17. Everything in the Dean flyer was true.

The truth hurts some times, eh?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

20. Dean Lied About Clark Being a Republican, for the Third Time

As for the rest, it's all been thrown up there before, and NH voters are very informed, so I doubt it'll hurt Clark at all. Not like this little stunt will hurt Dean.

DTH

[Padraig18]

25. 'Lied'?

Pardon me, but I don't recall MY cvandidate having voted for a Republican for President FIVE FREAKING TIMES! As Judge Judy says, you picked him, so you live with the baggage.

Your campaign are acting like a bunch of insecure 3rd-graders---waaa, waaa, waaa. If you think think THIS is bad, Rove will eat you ALIVE!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

33. WE'RE Insecure?

You are confusing genuine, righteous anger with insecurity.

You might want to write your campaign again, their desperate negative attacks on Clark are the clear sign of insecurity. And that's how the media is reporting it, so as far as I'm concerned, we win this little skirmish.

Oh, and remember Dean's little bit lately about how his handlers have "veto power" over his tendency to shoot his mouth off? That sounds like insecurity to me, insecurity about their candidate's gaffe-prone personality.

I embrace Clark's past votes for Republicans. They will serve us well in the general election. But he was never a Republican, as Howard Dean well knows. It's sad that he continues to lie about it.

DTH

[Padraig18]

39. Let me put my hip waders on...

The 'righteousness' is getting a bit deep. :eyes:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

46. I Know It's Tough To Be Righteous When Dean Is So Often Wrong

So I really can't blame you if you're unable to recognize it in others. :-)

DTH

[Padraig18]

49. Righteous, or hypocritical?

There was NOTHING that wasn't T-R-U-E in those flyers, so how is that 'negative'? Your camp is just smarting because a bit of Teflon came off.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

52. You're Talking to ME About Hypocrisy?

You already admitted you wrote the campaign and told them to cut this shit out because it's negative campaigning and ineffective. Now you act like Howard Dean by flip-flopping and trying to defend it?

And once again, the claim that Clark was ever a Republican is a lie. And Dean knows it.

Howard Dean, professional politician. If any of the teflon flaked off of anyone, it's Howard Dean, for acting like such a hypocritical, negative flake.

DTH

[Padraig18]

56. Ahem.

I wrote and told them that it was a poor campaign technique; I did NOT say it was 'negative', because it's not. The flyers don't say Clark IS a Republican, they say he VOTED for Republicans, etc.--big difference.

You guys won't last 10 minutes against KKKarl Rove, if you're this thin-skinned. God help our party, if the Clark campaign is that weak.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

59. I'm Not the Clark Campaign, But Nice Try Pushing That Irrelevant Meme

I'm sorry my attacks on Howard Dean, as an unpaid Clark volunteer, have apparently so upset you that you're taking it out on the General. I don't think that's a very reasonable position, but hey, obviously YMMV.

At least my detest of Howard Dean is founded on Dean himself, and not his supporters. I love many of his supporters. I just can't stand Dean.

And if you don't think stalking Clark events and handing out material obviously designed to evoke a negative response is negative campaigning, then I'm guessing that you may not really understand the concept.

DTH

[Padraig18]

63. Don't give yourself so much credit.

I detest neither you nor General Clark; I do detest whining AND hypocrisy. I didn't pick Gen. Clark to support---you did---- so you get all of his 'baggage', which includes voting Republican 5 times in presidential contests.

Deal with it, because the Good Fairy won't make it go away..

[DoveTurnedHawk]

64. Perhaps You Didn't Hear Me the First Time, But I Embrace His Votes

As for what you supposedly detest, I've seen you do plenty of what you claim to detest whenever Howard Dean is attacked.

And I'm not sure who you're calling a hypocrite, since Howard Dean is the biggest hypocrite around. I myself have never claimed to be an angel, nor have I claimed never to attack. I don't pretend to be as patient or as good a man as General Clark.

DTH

[Padraig18]

68. Embrace them, by all means.

Just don't call them 'attacks', when other people point them out.:)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

75. Intent Is the Key Here

When you hound a candidate at his own events, passing out fliers that (for the millionth time, which you've dodged a 999,999 times) LIE about someone being a Republican, that are clearly designed to evoke a negative response, that is the very definition of negative campaigning. That is the very definition of an attack.

DTH

[Padraig18]

80. The lie is this:

The flyers don't say Clark is a Republican--- they recire his own words about who he voted for, as well as other kind words he spoke about Repukes post-sElection 2000. That is NOT 'negative campaigning', any more than it was for Truman in 1948 against Tom Dewey.

Deal with it, beecause YOU picked him, not me.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

82. I'm Happy to Deal With Slimy Candidates Who Lie About Mine

In fact, that's exactly what I'm doing here. :-)

DTH

[Padraig18]

86. Sadly, no.

There was no lie.

Cheers!:)

[slinkerwink]

35. if Clark supporters freak out this much over a flyer showing Clark's

record, just imagine what will happen when Rove airs ads nonstop while Clark can't respond for two months after the primaries, showing Clark saying, "I think President Bush is doing a great job, and so are the people in his administration" at a Republican fundraiser in 2001.

[Padraig18]

47. It will be sad.

If they whine this much over the truth, can you imagine the histrionics over the mud that KKKarl will sling? :shrug:

[Clark Can WIN]

92. The video record of Howard Deans mouth appears to be upsetting Dean so...

With apologies for reapeating myself:

I must ask, who among you would not be screaming to the rafters if, let say, the Lieberman campaign dispatched groups of supporters (yes Virginia they do exist) to Dean campaign events with negative campaign flyers?

Is it hypocritical for Dean to call for an end to "gotcha" and attack politics while he is clearly still engageed in it?

Are you on record as saying that negative campaigning at someone elses event is a good idea?

[Padraig18]

94. A bit of clarification:

I think it's a poor techinque, for several reasons, and have said as much; the truth, however, is not 'negative campaigning'.

[Clark Can WIN]

124. If you look closely

you will notice that I was not talking to you. :thumbsup:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

29. Copy of the "Dean" flyer, perchance?

Haven't seen "it."

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

30. Truth?

I see a political assertion. Maybe I'm wrong? :shrug:

[Padraig18]

15. Doesn't it, though?

:hi:

[funky_bug]

22. Maybe I missed the point...

But wasn't the point of the original post NOT the content of the flyer itself, but the fact that Dean questioned McAuliffe regarding his do-nothing approach to the attacks ON Dean, just weeks before he launched this one on Clark?

[Padraig18]

34. Not the first time a thread got hijacked here.

Wont be the last, either. Ya play the cards you get dealt. :P

[Clark Can WIN]

106. You are correct Wife

but apparently it is more convenient to ignore the point and deploy diversionary tactics instead.

[maddezmom]

14. Dean campaign was standing by its Clark literature

http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/pindell/2003/december/1_8clark.shtml

[YellowDawgDemocrat]

26. Yeah, all you virtuous, ethical, play fair Clark supporters

will be wiping your flu carrying hands on Bush doorknobs after about a week of Rove. I'm not sure you guys have the stomach for a Presidential campaign.

[maddezmom]

44. bullshit

the fact is Dean complained about dirty politics and he's doing it himself. Didn't even say I'm against it, it part of the game. But don't deny participation in the press and do it. :)

[Crunchy Frog]

105. Actually, I'm very happy

about these new sleazy attack tactics by the Dean campaign.:)

These sorts of tactics have tended to backfire on those who have carried them out, and helped the person who was being attacked, as was seen with the Kerry, Gephardt and Lieberman campaigns.

It also tells me that Dean is beginning to get really worried about Clark and that is very good news for me, especially since Dean is more likely to slip up and do something really stupid if he feels threatened enough.

This whole thing is also giving more publicity to Clark and some negative publicity to Dean, also very good.:)

Most of us are not upset about this, quite the contrary. We are however a little bit astounded at the hypocracy of the Dean campaign, as well as some of his supporters.

Face it, if Clark was pulling this kind of thing at Dean rallies, his supporters would be screaming bloody murder. As it is, many people seem upset that Clark even responded at all, despite how classy and gentlemanlike his response actually was.

[realdem]

23. When/if Clark becomes viable

He will be attacked. Either by Kerry, or Edwards, or Dean. It will happen. No one can else take the heat Dean has taken. It shows Dean is strong enough to take on Bush. I think the flyer's were fine, especially sense it was done by two volunteers who stood outside in bitterly cold weather because they have passion for Dean.

[Clark Can WIN]

107. Now that is truly funny.

I needed that laugh.

[Democrats unite]

28. So far this thread absolutely proves beyond a doubt that...

No matter what the Dean campaign does there will be no backlash from it's supporters that there should be. Just one of the differences between the two types of supporters & I am proud to say I am on the opposite team that would not tolerate this kind of crap!

[realdem]

37. A Dean clip just defended the substance of the flyer..

..onr News Hour. He said there was a difference between telling the truth and attacking.

[Padraig18]

41. And they're right. n/t

[Fleshdancer]

36. I can't denounce a flyer unless I know what's on it

If the information is correct, I won't denounce it. If it is incorrect, then I will denounce it.

[Crunchy Frog]

108. I think it is a sleazy tactic

whether or not the content of the flyers is true. I felt the same way about the attacks on Dean by the other candidates, even when many of the things they were saying about him were true. If you have something to say about a candidate, there are more classy and civilized ways to go about saying them.

I'm afraid this makes Dean look bad, and a little desperate even if everything in the flyer is true.

[Clark Can WIN]

112. Please read the original post again

I asked about the STUNT. `Do you think it is ethical for a campaign to send out volunteers to other candidates rallies and distribute negative literature?

Should the Kerry campaign start sending volunteers to Dean rallies with information about his draft dodging and flip flopping? I would consider that information factual but the delivery........... tacky.

[janx]

38. HANG ON A MINUTE.

Please give me a source or link that will show me that the Dean campaign "...has admitted to be behind these tactics..."


So far, I've only heard rumors about any of this, I've never seen an actual flyer, and I have in fact read different sources ("Dean Campaign" etc.) as being listed on the fliers.

So before I go with any of this, I'm going to have to know about sources. This is a very dirty time in the primary, and anything can happen.

I have seen no sources related to the original fliers in your links. One repeated link only shows me that "Clark is going to have fliers of his own" or some such thing.

Let's step back and assess the situation before asking people to denounce or support something, shall we?

[Democrats unite]

43. If you read the original post you will find the link.

eom

[janx]

62. All I find is a link leading to an article about Clark fliers

and some DU links.

[realdem]

60. DOn't know if they wer 'behind it" but

Dean clip on News Hour just had him saying "Show me the statements and I'll defend them." Then went on to say that Clark was for then against the war and was okay with jobs going overseas.

[janx]

69. Obviously, then, he hasn't seen these fliers either.

.

[rucky]

40. Anybody have a copy of the fliers...or even an article?

not the Clark rebuttal article...a real article about the original incident?

How can I denounce something when I have no idea what it said?

[Fleshdancer]

50. Exactly...

Could you imagine if the Clark campaign came out with a flyer or a commercial saying negative things about Dean and Dean supporters saying they should denounce it before they've been given a chance to see it?

This is ridiculous. I'm not going to feel guilty for not giving an opinion on a situation without having the facts first. :eyes:

[rucky]

58. Here's an inkling of a hint of it...from Slate:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2093587/#On
...
On one side, the flyer reads "WESLEY CLARK: PRO-WAR," followed by a list of the general's much-discussed statements in support of the congressional Iraq war resolution. It's the stuff that gave Clark grief when he entered the race in the fall: He advised Katrina Swett, campaigning at the time*, to vote for the resolution, and he told reporters this past September that "on balance, I probably would have voted for it." On the other side, the flyer reads "WESLEY CLARK: REAL DEMOCRAT?" followed by Clark's much-discussed statements in praise of President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, and the Bush Cabinet, plus evidence of his pro-Republican voting record in presidential elections (until 1992).

Clark strategist Chris Lehane paints this as hypocrisy on Dean's part. After calling on Terry McAuliffe to put a stop to intra-party bickering, the former Vermont governor aims his guns at his fellow Democrats when the tactic serves his interests. Fair enough, but who cares? More important is Clark campaign's sense of pride that it has arrived as a serious Dean rival. No campaign has ever been happier to have a target on its back.

Just as a press release at the Oct. 9 Phoenix debate showed that the Dean campaign considered Dick Gephardt its main obstacle of the moment, these flyers, however mild, demonstrate that Clark has become a big enough irritant to merit a swat of his own. "The Howard Dean campaign is starting to get a little nervous," Mo Elleithee, the campaign's New Hampshire communications director, crows at a conference call slapped together to gleefully respond to Dean's "negative attack flyers." "They're hearing our footsteps."


Based on this, I agree with the official statement from the Clark camp. No need to denounce.

[RetroLounge]

48. I will denounce this when

Howard Dean, Al Gore, Bill Bradley, and Tom Harkin Denounce it.

You don't carry any weight with me. Sorry, they do...

But nice try.

[killbotfactory]

53. Were Clark's feelings hurt?

Awww... I'm so sorry. I guess we should just ignore his past statements and actions.

[Clark Can WIN]

131. It must really suck

to have to defend the bottom feeder tactics of your own candidate. I'm so glad Clark is better than that.

[TexasPatriot]

61. i find this thread funny

because Padraig has for so long been the 'cant we all just get along' guy....

and now he's the 'spin ballerina spin' guy...

[Padraig18]

65. Yeah, well...

... it helps to view it in context. :)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

67. Sort of Like Howard Dean's Negative Fliers Within the Context of His

Supposedly "positive" campaign?

:-)

DTH

[Padraig18]

71. What's negative about the truth?

:)

[styersc]

76. Half truths are always negative-

In fact, half truths are actually mostly lie.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

78. When They're Lies, and When They're Designed to Evoke a Negative Response

:-)

DTH

[Padraig18]

83. What lies would those be?

He never called Clark a Republican in the flyer, merely used hios own words
Show me the 'lie' in that.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

87. Now We're at an Impasse

My sources say they DID call Clark a Republican. In fact, I'm pretty sure you acknowledged that when this story first broke, and tried to pooh-pooh it by saying it was close enough, or whatever.

But until the flier gets scanned in (and I suspect this will happen any day now, if the media doesn't do it first), I guess we're done.

DTH

[Padraig18]

88. You're right.

My sources say the flyer recites his voting record, and positive comments post-sElection 2000 about Bush and his various Cabinet members.

Guess that scan will prove who's telling the truth. :)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

93. I Look Forward To It As Well

Regardless of whether or not it's a lie, however, it's still negative campaigning.

DTH

[Padraig18]

98. Sorry, no.

The truth is not 'negative campaigning'; by that line of thinking, we are doomed next fall, because we'd be able to say nothing about * at all.

Think about it. :think:

[killbotfactory]

89. Look at these sleazy tactics!

"President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt. Their opponents, those who questioned the necessity or wisdom of the operation, are temporarily silent, but probably unconvinced." - 4/10/03, Clark in an editorial "What Must Be Done to Complete a Great Victory"

Clark: Pro-Iraq War

[Padraig18]

90. *grin*

Exactly what I'm talking about. :evilgrin:

[JVS]

97. It's the biggest injustice ever!

[janx]

66. Padraig has found that civility is a two-way street. n/t

[Padraig18]

72. Indeed, I have.

6 weeks of wearing a "Kick Me!" sign have brought some new insights... :)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

84. By the Way

If you hate whining so much, you must really hate Dean, because he's the king of the whiners after his stunt with McAuliffe. :-)

DTH

[janx]

128. You were only trying to be polite, man.

I can understand that.

[HFishbine]

70. I can't condemn

what I haven't seen. If you're asking us to condemn the tactic, I'll decline. It's a benign act.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

79. Asked, and answered.

To quote Steve Buscemi in Fargo: "Total, fucking silence!"

[Clark Can WIN]

134. Well thanks, that's what I wanted to konw

I appreciate your honesty. You consider it benign, I consider it sleazy. Done.

[HFishbine]

137. I really don't get it

Maybe I'm dense. What makes it sleazy?

It would have to be one of two things. Either:

1) The act of passing out flyers at an opponent's campaign event. Which I do see as benign and I suspect you must as well since I don't see you condemning Edwards and Leiberman for the same tactics.

or

2) The content of the flyer, about which I said I'd have to reserve judgement having not seen the flyer. If this is your reason, then I guess you've seen the flyer and maybe you'll share with us its contents.

Or, maybe there's something else. What makes it Sleazy?

[lurk_no_more]

81. Clark's response was exactly the response

given when you believe the subject is of little importance, he set the record straight and went on about his business of running for President. His whole campaign has been focused on beating bush, thats the target, the other dem candidates are attacking each other while Clark sits back, laughs and stays on course, their so immaterial.

You gotta love the guy, he is sooo above the rest in his focus, he can defend himself while still showing he's a better choice than bush, and while his defense gets through it never overshadows his message that he is the one that can take bush out.

He said he wouldn't go negative and hasn't, and he's done it without having to be slapped down and ridiculed for not being able to take the heat, he doesn't whine to momma because his brothers call him a names. Real men don't whine "Make em stop"


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[RandomUser]

143. Well said

And very telling of Clark's character and developing campaign skills.

[bowens43]

85. No

[wtmusic]

91. This is unfuckingbelievable

We're up to 85 posts, people, arguing about a flyer that hasn't even been presented in its entirety yet. From the title (which calls it a 'stunt') on down...

What a waste.

[poskonig]

95. Where is the imaginary flyer???

I can't vote up or down on this issue until I see it.

[Padraig18]

99. Don't you find it a bit odd that.......

...after 36 hours, some Clark supporter hasn't made one available for the whole 'Democratic world' to see? :eyes:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

101. Even a fake!

You'd think!

[Padraig18]

102. Mmmm hmmm.....

I find this particular 'vacuuum' distinctly....'suspicious'. :eyes:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

118. Yep!

[Clark Can WIN]

136. I guess the ones they showed on MSNBC and CNN were

Drafted by Karl Rove, but then there's that whole pesky thing about the Dean campaign already having owned up to the stunt.

:shrug:

[RandomUser]

145. Don't you know?

Anything shown on CNN or any media channel that shows negative campaigning by Dean is obviously a Rove lie. Especially if the Dean campaign comes out and admits it true! Damn that Rove! :eyes:

[Clark4VotingRights]

100. I'm not a Dean supporter, but I hate these "do you denounce" threads

They feel like brown-shirt intimidation tactics.

I know, I can put this thread on ignore.
I will.

[Clark Can WIN]

138. Ok whatever. If there is a next time

I'll ask if they condone the tactics instead. Semantics pneumatics.

[Cheswick2.0]

110. I denounce this thread

what flyers? I think Clark is making it all up.

[JVS]

114. I join you in denouncing this thread

[Duder]

113. I denounce argyle sweaters

Which is just as petty an issue, imo.

[Crunchy Frog]

116. My response to all the protestations

that the flyer hasn't been documented yet, etc. is that the incident has nevertheless been covered by many major news outlets. If it didn't come from the Dean campaign, he could clear things up in a second by simply coming out and saying that he is not responsible for them and that he denounces them. If he doesn't do that then I have to assume that his campaign is indeed responsible for them.

If he didn't do it, then he is doing his campaign tremendous harm by not being proactive about denouncing it, simply because of the perception that he's behind it.

That is my two cents, for what it's worth.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

120. If "what" didn't come from the Dean campaign?

Funny how annoying flyers can be by their ubiquitousness until you need to see one.


Weird.

[janx]

139. Watch out for major media outlets though.

They are becoming increasingly tabloid, and they don't care who "wins."

[Printer70]

123. I denounce the Clark campaign

For crying about this (after they complained when Dean told McAulliffe to clean up the primary), rather than owning up to it. Yes, Clark was a Republican. How can you assure the Democratic base that Clark won't again be deceived by the right-wing siren song as he was for decades? And Clark was pro-war, until his consultants told him to drop that position in the primary.

[CreamyGoodness]

140. No, I don't

Haven't seen a copy of the flyer that Clark supporters have got their panties in a wad about. Could be everything in the flyer is fair game. Could be much ado about nothing.

[stickdog]

142. Dean has been pummeled to death on every little, tiny thing.

Meanwhile, the DLC is trying to pawn off a general turned Kissinger/Jackson Stephens (Acxiom, Promis, Country Club for Growth) lobbyist with no political record whatsoever as the good imperialist to Bush's bad imperialist.

Clark has gotten a free ride with the press.