Here's the Flyer Dean Supporters Handed Out at the Clark Event

[HFishbine]

NOTE: This was posted on a Clark blog. The poster says he scanned it using optical character recognition software.

Discuss.

-------

(front side)

WESLEY CLARK: REAL DEMOCRAT?

Clark PRAISED Bush and Cheney Until Deciding to Run for President

May 2001: "As you look around the world, there's a lot of work to be done. And rm very glad we have got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell. Don Rumsfeld. Dick Cheney. Condoleezza Rice. Paul O'Neill, people I know very well. our president George W. Bush. We need him there. . ."

January 2002: "I tremendously admire, and I think we all should, the great work done by our commander-in-chief, our president, George Bush," January 22, 2002 speech, Harding University

January 2002: "Af1er Al Qaeda attacked America, retired Gen. Wes Clark thought the Bush administration would invite him to join its team. ... But when GOP friends inquired, they were told: forget it. Word was that Karl Rove, the president's political mastermind, had blocked the idea. Clark was furious. Last January, at a conference in Switzerland, he happened to chat with two prominent Republicans, Colorado Gov. Bill Owens and Marc Holtzman, now president of the University of Denver. 'I would have been a Republican,' Clark told them, 'if Karl Rove had returned my phone calls.' Soon thereafter, in fact, Clark quit his day job and began seriously planning to enter the presidential race -- as a Democrat. Messaging Newsweek by BlackBerry, Clark late last week insisted the remark was a 'humorous tweak.' The two others said it was anything but. 'He went into detail about his grievances,' Holtzman said. 'Clark wasn't joking. We were really shocked.'"

Clark VOTED For Republicans for Decades
"Clark has said he voted for Nixon in 1972, Ronald Reagan in 1980 and 1984 and George H.W. Bush in 1988."
Clark NOT a Registered Democrat Until October 7, 2003
Clark declared his candidacy for president on September 17,2003. He registered as a Democrat on October 7 - 20 days after he declared. And nearly 38 years after he turned 21. W. 9/17/03 and 10/7/03]

Clark SAYS Democrats Are Soft on National Security
Wesley Clark was on "Hardball" with Chris Matthews 12/8, and spoke on why he's running as a Oem after voting for several GOP WH candidates: "I voted for people who were strong on national security and national defense."

"I'll tell you why General Clark voted for . General Clark spent 30 years in the armed forces. He wasn't that active in politics. And I think his focus was really on military affairs, national security..."
Clark BELIEVED Bush's Compassionate Conservatism
Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark in September offered this explanation for having praised President Bush at a Republican fund-raiser. "It's been an incredible journey for me and for this country since early 2001," he said. "We elected a President we thought was a compassionate conservative. Instead. we got neither conservatism nor compassion." The retired Army general gave a different story here in New Hampshire the other day. In this version. it was only American voters who got suckered by Mr. Bush's 2000 campaign -- not him. "I never believed that George W. Bush was a compassionate conservative." he said.

Clark BRAGS About Having No Strong Party Affiliation
"If this party is going to win in the future," he said, "it's going 10 need a lot of people like me . .. people who don't have strong party affiliation." -Clark, in New Hampshire

(back side)

WESLEY CLARK: PRO-WAR

CLARK PRO-WAR
OCTOBER 2002: SUPPORTED War Resolution "Retired U.S. Army Gen. Wesley Clark said Wednesday he supports a congressional resolution that would give President Bush authority to use military force against Iraq, although he has reservations about the country's move toward war. Clark, who led the allied NATO forces in the Kosovo conflict, endorsed Democrat Katrina Swett in the 2nd District race. He said if she were in Congress this week, he would advise her to vote for the resolution, but only after vigorous debate."
Clark Wanted to "Go Ahead" with the War "The credibility of the United States is on the line and Saddam Hussein has these weapons and so, you know, we're going to go ahead and do this and the rest of the world's got to get with us."
September 2003: SUPPORTED War Resolution AGAIN "Gen. Wesley K. Clark said today that he would have supported the Congressional resolution that authorized the United States to invade Iraq, even as he presented himself as one of the sharpest critics of the war effort in the Democratic presidential race. . . . General Clark said that he would have advised members of Congress to support the authorization of war but that he thought it should have had a provision requiring President Bush to return to Congress before actually invading. . . . 'I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position - on balance, I probably would have voted for it.'"
When Clark's press advisor, Mary Jacoby, asked: "You said you would have voted for the resolution as leverage for a U.N.-based solution," Clark responded, "Right. Exactly."

4. October 2003: SUPPORTED War Resolution a THIRD TIME When asked whether he favored the resolution, Clark said: "The thing was, I would have voted for it for leverage.

CLARK NOW ANTI-WAR

October 2003: "I've been against this war from the beginning," he declared. "I was against it last summer. I was against it in the fall. I was against it in the winter. I was against it in the spring. And I'm against it now."

November 2003: Explaining away the September 18 interview, Clark said: "At the time I'd made this statement, I was having what I thought was an informal--I wasn't clear whether it was on-the record or off-the-record discussion abut the philosophy of sort of entering the presidency and somehow the Iraq question got thrown in." <60 Minutes II, 11/19/03>

Paid For by Dean For America
Produced In House, Volunteer Labor

(link, on edit: http://chat.forclark.com/comments/2004/1/7/23747/58243/230#230)

[RetroLounge]

1. Not much of an false attack, really, but this part

"Last January, at a conference in Switzerland, he happened to chat with two prominent Republicans, Colorado Gov. Bill Owens and Marc Holtzman, now president of the University of Denver. 'I would have been a Republican,' Clark told them, 'if Karl Rove had returned my phone calls."

Wasn't this debunked, or maybe it was he said it jokingly? I remember reading about this a while back.

[funky_bug]

5. That was part

I would like to see backed up. Joking or not - it's not a good quote. Question is, who was privy to this private conversation, and why don't they publicly back it up?

[Renew Deal]

7. It was a joke

Rove also said he never spoke to Clark. (And no, I don't trust Rove).

[funky_bug]

21. Okies

Thanks for the heads up. Funny thing is, one of the things about Clark that I adore, is his sense of humor (you can see it in his eyes all the time... when he wants to bash some stupid Faux reporter for a stupid question, but maintains and answers calmly). I guess sometimes, a joke maybe shouldn't be spoken outloud.

[RetroLounge]

42. That's the part I remember. Thanks.

Probably should have left that part off the flyer.

Politics is an ugly biz. But I ain't gotta like it...

[Clark Can WIN]

56. Yes, a good scrap can be a hellovalotta fun

:toast:

[LuminousX]

108. White House phone logs were examined and Clark never called

It was a joke by Clark, most likely.

[janx]

131. These two were privvy to the conversation:

"Colorado Gov. Bill Owens and Marc Holtzman, now president of the University of Denver"

Republicans. Don't trust it.

[Cheswick2.0]

17. I don't beleive it was a joke

sue me

[Clark Can WIN]

34. I don't believe that you that you are objective

or would accept that it was a joke under any circumstances with any amount of proof. No suprise there.

[YellowDawgDemocrat]

44. And if a recording of the conversation mysteriously appears

and is convincing through the course of the conversation that Clark was serious...then what?

[funky_bug]

49. And the other 40% of Dean's sealed records?

If the other 40% of Dean's sealed records turn up something dirty, then what?

[Clark Can WIN]

54. What if I swallow a pill and wake up in my 19 year old body tomorrow?

What if I win the lottery. This IS fun.

But seriously. Are you familiar at all with Clark's sense of humor? If you were, you would recognize it. Very dry, cerebral. Not slapstick.

[funky_bug]

61. What if...

Madonna counters Willie with a song of her own? What if Puff the Magic Dragon was really about Kucinich all along? What if the magic Peace Fairy lands and we all hold hands on the steps of the capital and sing God Bless America... oh wait.. that really did happen.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

75. I can't see most of them appreciating his humour. Clark is a Letterman/

Stewart kind of guy (in fact they both like Clark) and he gets along with them well. I haven't seen Dean on either of their shows but it's obvious that Stewart doesn't like him.

Leno is a Dean fan I think. Don't know who else...

Dean's humor would be more obvious I would think. It's not that I'm saying that he's not intelligent - but he doesn't seem like he'd have a lot of patience with something "subtle."

[Clark Can WIN]

86. Leno is a Republican

nuff said.

[bearfartinthewoods]

117. has there ever been any debunking of the reason why/if he had

TWO meeting with pubbies about running as a pubbie for Arkansas governor?

[KittyWampus]

30. Those 2 Guys Are Roves Buddies

and yes it was debunked.

[funky_bug]

35. But But But I thought Clark was Rove's puppet

But But But... I thought Rove was secretly behind Clark's campaign?
/sarcasm off

[Skwmom]

99. Dean on the Iraq War

He (Dean) gets a delue of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspicies of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't unilteral ation is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice. Fec 02 (Salon interview).

Clark would have voted to give Bush leverage in his dealings with Saddam and the UN, not for Bush to go to war. Big difference.

[meow mix]

2. other clark blogs have it too

this is indeed how the flyer reads.
and..
theres other flyers too. newly re-worked versions..

[funky_bug]

3. Thank you!

Finally SOMEONE post the flyer.

I will say this - I think there were some of us who actually believe there were WMD. I mean, didn't the Prez say so? Who knew the intellegence was made up. So Clark believed him, found out there were no WMD and now he's as pissed as the rest of us. I have no problem with that.

I have no problem that he voted for Nixon and Reagan. He also voted for Clinton and Gore. That's even enough for me.

I'm pretty much okay with this flyer. As a matter of fact, some of the headlines leading into the quotes are such a stretch, that it frankly makes the entire flyer look silly.

Most of us were born skeptical. If someone from another campaign hands me a flyer slamming another campaigner, I'm going to read it with my skeptical goggles. BUT I'm a Clark supporter, so it's all in the way you want to see it, I suppose.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

77. In general, people who are going to another candidate's rally are

take too kindly to someone "getting in their face."

[funky_bug]

80. Good point

I agree. Been there and seen that. It does leave you with a bad impression of the other candidate. Kinda like when you go to the mall for shoes and those damned kiosk ass clowns try to force boiled peanuts down your throat.

[markus]

129. A lot of people at a "rally" aren't supporters.

They are curious. There are some 300 registered to caucus for Dean people in all of North DAkota and there were 1,000 at the Dean visit.

The curious are fair game.

[JNelson6563]

135. Thank you!

I will tell the Calrk supporters in my town (all 5 of them!) that you said so as a Clark supporter. Maybe then they'll get a clue. ;-)

Hope springs eternal!

Julie

[Skwmom]

105. Well I'm not okay with the flyer

I am sick and tired of the lies and distortions from the Dean camp (especially with Dean's using the Iraq War for political gain and talking out of both sides of his mouth on this issue). He avoids the draft (sending some poor kid to take his place), he lies on the Iowa questionnaire implying his brother was in the military, lies about his position on the Iraq War and then today he has his campaign people trying to dodge questions about his own prior statements by using the Iowan soliders who died in Iraq as a shield.

[LuminousX]

110. The flyer is par for the course... normal politics

wake me when something different happens.

[bearfartinthewoods]

119. where is your skepticism a to his saying he voted for clinton and gore?

why do you believe this?

[Clark4Prez]

4. I guess Clark should call Terry and ask him to stop the attacks

It is an attack, it is going negative, and most of this has been debunked by posters here on DU.

Maybe someone should let the opposition research team for Dean in on GD, then they won't waste time and money on this sort of weak material.


As a Clark supporter, I would have to say if this is the best that Dean has in attacks, we don't have anything to worry about. Bring it on, howey!

[Closer]

6. What's not true about any of this?

If you ask me, they went LIGHT on the NeoCon Warhawk.

Prepare yourselves Clark supporters, after Dean secures Iowa, DFA is coming after Clark. Expect much more of this.

[Renew Deal]

8. Bring it on

Dean can't get out of his own way. What's his position on taxes today? Have you gotten your new talking points yet?

[Clark Can WIN]

41. Amen baby........... this is going to get ucking fugly before it's over

Let Dean continue soiling himself with petty crap like this. Voters can smell desperation. Look at how well it's worked out for Lieberman.

[funky_bug]

46. Yikes!

Major wake-up kick in the pants! Nice post/rebuttal!

[funky_bug]

10. Tit for Tat

How come this is okay, but the 90 minute tapes are making Dean supporters livid?

It's okay to bring up Clark's old quotes, but not to bring up Dean's?

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. Because Dean

can do no wrong and everyone else can. That's why.

[funky_bug]

16. Riiiiiiiiight

I guess with the lovefest going on tonight, I forgot that.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eloriel]

59. Help, please

How come this is okay, but the 90 minute tapes are making Dean supporters livid?

Can you point me to where Dean supporters have been "livid"? I've missed that. I saw a lot of Dean supporters' posts yesterday on the subject and they were pretty dismissive of the brouhaha over these tapes.

Can you provide a link -- or better yet, several?

Eloriel

[funky_bug]

66. I could, I suppose...

but I don't want to go back through all my ignored posts. I suppose "livid" might have been a poor choice of words. But please don't QUOTE me on it.

All I can say is, the Dean tapes came out, and his supporters were quick to note how unfair it was that his old quotes were being used out of context to hurt his campaign. Several today have stated the timing was a conspiracy by the media to hurt his campaign (of course it was, that point I do not argue.) I just think it smells of loyalism and hypocrasy that those same candidates who DEFENDED their guy, are now gleefully posting a bunch of "Yep, Clark said it" stuff.

Oh yes, and to quote you in your previous post: "I saw a lot of Dean supporters' posts yesterday on the subject and they were pretty dismissive of the brouhaha over these tapes."

So I'll rephrase my question: I've seen several posts that urge the Clark folk to respond to this flyer. So why is it okay for the Dean folk to be "dismissive", and not the Clark folk?

[Eloriel]

84. That's a little better

I'll accept your clarification.

I could, I suppose...
but I don't want to go back through all my ignored posts. I suppose "livid" might have been a poor choice of words. But please don't QUOTE me on it.

Well, just remember that you may be called on to back up your statements, so might as well keep those "ignored posts" handy, esp. if you're going to mischaracterize them.

All I can say is, the Dean tapes came out, and his supporters were quick to note how unfair it was that his old quotes were being used out of context to hurt his campaign.

Do you find that somehow an unreasonable complaint? If not, I'm confused as to why you would object to Dean supporters saying so? If so, why do you think that complaint is unreasonable?

Several today have stated the timing was a conspiracy by the media to hurt his campaign (of course it was, that point I do not argue.) I just think it smells of loyalism and hypocrasy that those same candidates who DEFENDED their guy, are now gleefully posting a bunch of "Yep, Clark said it" stuff.

And what is "loyalism"? I might easily define myself as a Dean Loyalist. Is that bad? Please tell me how, and why.

Now, as to the hypocrisy -- first, please note that I'm not among the posters you're talking about, so I reallyd on't feel I have any obligation to respond to your commetns, but since you've broad-brushed Dean supporters, and rather unflatteringly (not to mention inaccurately so far), I am interested.

Second, are you suggesting that there's some equivalency between the out-of-context Dean quotes and Clark's quotes? Perhaps you're suggesting that Clark's quotes were out-of-contxt too? I don't believe that's the case, but if you'd like to try to support that, please do.

So, you're calling Dean Supporters hypocritical because they object to Dean's out-of-context quotes but not Clark's perfectly in-context quotes?

Or -- ???

Oh yes, and to quote you in your previous post: "I saw a lot of Dean supporters' posts yesterday on the subject and they were pretty dismissive of the brouhaha over these tapes."

So I'll rephrase my question: I've seen several posts that urge the Clark folk to respond to this flyer. So why is it okay for the Dean folk to be "dismissive", and not the Clark folk?

I have no idea what you mean by "posts that urge the Clark folk to respond to this flyer." Who's doing the urging? Respond how? To whom? :shrug:

As for your question, I haven't said it was okay, so again I don't really feel the need to answer. I also don't quite understand it anyway. I merely pointed out a fact: that in my observation Dean supporters were mostly dismissive about the tape brouhaha, "much ado about nothing." Clark supporters can try that if they want (and usually do, actually). No skin off my nose.

Eloriel

[funky_bug]

87. The best I can figure

Is that nothing I say is going to satisfy you. I was among many people who said, "So Dean said this/that..." and dismissed it. I never said (and was careful not to do so) that "all Dean folk" did this or that. I have praised and lauded the fact that since ignoring a few select flame-baiters, most of the Dean folk are actually level and respectful.

As for your other responses to my responses to your responses (laugh a little, okay), it's past midnight here in my neck of the woods, and I'm just going to let them go now.

I take your comments with the utmost respect for your sincerity, but I can tell we are going to go around and around for no particular reason, since essentially we both agree on this:

The tapes and the flyer are just a bunch of nothing. If you don't believe that Clark's comments were taken out of context, and you're really concerned about that, then read some of the other posts in this thread, which provide links and comments regarding the nature of those quotes in fuller context.

In the end, you and I will defend our sides to the death. Me... I'd rather just let this go... not as an admission of defeat, just an admission of exhaustion.

G'night and Cheerio!
R~

[Clark Can WIN]

89. that post spins so hard

you should be handing out airsick bags.

[funky_bug]

90. Thanks, Clark Can

I thought it was just b/c I'm exhausted.

[Eloriel]

97. I vote exhaustion

I'd hate to think that you, like he, is apparently so heavily spun himself that he's uable to recognize when something isn't spin. Or that both of you can't handle a simple discussion where people are discussing things logically.

Like I said, I vote exhaustion. :-)

Eloriel

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

13. Would that be

before or after he extracts both feet from his mouth?

[Barbara917]

52. Please see my reply in post 48 below

[Skwmom]

101. It's called lies and distortions.

This crap has been debunked previously on this board.

[JVS]

142. No. Those having doubts about Clark have been attacked and driven off...

in great numbers. That does not count as Debunking.

[roguevalley]

121. Questions: How do we know it isn't part of Rove's penchant for this type

of thing, saying it was dean and maybe not? I remember
Nixon used to do this all the time and Bush sr. fired
Rove for doing this kind of thing in his campaign. I
wonder if the passers-outers were deanies?

RV, a die-hard Clarkie.

[mmonk]

128. Again, this neocon business is a lie

Wes Clark is against unilateral empire building and has said so on many occasions.

[blm]

9. A flier like this could be made for Dean and his inconsistent remarks, too

Most people don't know that Dean's antiwar stance is bogus.

[sandnsea]

12. Pot, kettle, etc.

If Dean can't play the IWR card, he's got nothing.

[LuminousX]

111. Bogus.. yeah, he wasn't being called by Wolf when the Saddam statue fell

He wasn't being told his campaign was done when Saddam was captured.

No matter what he said at the start, he is tied with the anti-Iraq war movement.

[LuminousX]

112. Meanwhile

entire websites were devoted to Dean, just like the flier - only far more widespread.

[wtmusic]

11. Are there lies in here?

Appreciate any Clark supporters i.d.'ing any outright lies or misrepresentations.

thanks

[meow mix]

20. the lie..

is this.

REAL DEMOCRAT?

its the ridiculous, tin-hat assumption that clark is not what he says.

that he is some kind of conspiratory-trap.
that clark just wants to trick us... and send our babies off to iraq.

koolaid.
ever wonder why say koolaid? thats why.

[wtmusic]

23. Not a lie

it's an opinion. Although I do agree "Real Democrat" is cheap, demeaning, and unnecessary.

[Clark Can WIN]

50. It's not stated as an opinion but I must give you kudos

for saying that it is cheap and unnecessary. I would do the same thing if the Clark campaign sent out volunteers to a Dean rally calling him a flip-flopper and a draft dodger. That too would be cheap and demeaning and indefensible.

If Clark had instituted an action like this I would be crushed.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

74. Well best of luck to your candidate, but

if he does become the frontrunner Wes will be subjected to twice the scrutiny he has been.

Not saying he can't take it.

[funky_bug]

76. My money

literally and figuratively, is that time WILL tell. I believe Wes will get the chance to prove he can take it, and I can't wait for him to get the chance to do some living-shit kicking.

[bearfartinthewoods]

120. two years ago, clark would have been disemboweled here

this desperation to find a non washington dem has been resulted in accepting a man who we having nothing to verify his Dem status except his word and a very recent registration.

how do i gain confidence in a man who registered as a freaking lobbyist before he registered as a democrat?

[JVS]

139. Yes, it is truly sad that so many think that it is better to outsource...

the top job. I'd take any of the other candidates , maybe except Lieberman, rather than Clark.

[Clark4Prez]

28. How about this

Dean met several times with Clark before the general joined the race, and he was impressed. "His thinking has helped me enormously," he said in August. "Our views are strikingly similar on a lot of issues, including Iraq." USA Today 10/1/2003

[meow mix]

38. good example..

dean doesnt buy the conspiracy theory that clark is pretend.
he just spreads it = intentional lying.

[Clark Can WIN]

67. ooooooo I'm gonna have to bookmark that. n/t

[KittyWampus]

37. The Very First Quote Is To A Speech Warning The Neo Cons

about their strategy basically.

So if you take it in context... Clark was being diplomatic in his first laudatory comments.

Would it make sense to call the Administration a bunch of liars and hacks?
Do you think they'd be more inclined to listent to him using that approach?

It's be nice for a Dean supporter to answer these 2 questions

[HFishbine]

70. Liars and hacks?

Yeah, maybe so. The butt-kissing approach seems to have had no effect.

[Clark Can WIN]

78. You are right, Clark couldn't straighten them out, slap them into reality

and improve this nations lot as a guest speaker. So now he intends on just replacing the sorry S.O.B.'s with REAL leadership and a REAL uniter, not a divider.

He's going to take their own rhetoric, their own words and their failures to fight against them.

Clark Can WIN.

[Barbara917]

48. I am not going to go through it point by point.

There are different answers to each one of those.

I find it interesting that Dean supporters are so willing to believe in the "opinions" of partisan Republicans on Clark's joke about Rove taking his calls. We do pick and chose what we want to believe and often times not for objective reasons but because it's what we want to believe.

But the main question I would like to ask Dean supporters is this. Are there lies in here?

"NBC Voice Over: Dean even suggested the caucuses were a waste of time for ordinary people
Dean: “I can’t stand there and listen to everyone else's opinion for eight hours about how to fix the world.”

The answer of course is no. Is it taken out of context so that one might misunderstand it. Of course. See the righteous indignation of Dean supporters discuss this in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=92943

I sincerely sympathize with them. This kind of stuff happens to Clark all the time. It even happens in negative attack flyers passed out by a political rivals at his own events. It's too bad those people can only see what is wrong with it when these tactics are directed at their own candidate.

[Eloriel]

92. Here's the deal

find it interesting that Dean supporters are so willing to believe in the "opinions" of partisan Republicans on Clark's joke about Rove taking his calls. We do pick and chose what we want to believe and often times not for objective reasons but because it's what we want to believe.

Here's how my thinking goes on that. And btw, I'm sure not ALL Dean supporters believe that Clark wasn't joking, so you probably ought to qualify such statements with the word "some," as in "some Dean supporters..."

The statement, as quoted, is not the kind of thing I would ever, ever joke about, or the kind of thing I can even imagine someone who was a loyal Democrat (even if not registered as one) or staunchly left-of-center voter saying. Clark didn't deny it, he passed it off as a joke. Further, we also know that Clark had been effusive in his praise of a few too many Bushies. We also know that for many, many, many months he was very coy about whether he was going to run and if so, what PARTY he was going to run in. These are irrefutable facts. So it's not at all outside the realm of possibilities that he actually thought along those lines.

The truth is none of us can know for sure, and some of us are going to believe Clark and some of us are going to have reservations and our own opinions on the matter, which we're entitled to.

Eloriel

[eyesroll]

15. OK, I promised I'd say when I don't like something my guy's campaign did

I don't like flyers like this. I'd strongly prefer a campaign stick to their own good points. Or do a compare/contrast. Since the word "Dean" appears only in the "paid for" tag (which is a correct tag), there isn't compare/contrast.

Using someone's own quotes against them is part of politics (even though, like I said, I don't like it). It's not "dirty" -- assuming these quotes are correct (I don't have time to verify them) and not radically out of context (someone care to debunk them?). The "real Democrats" is kind of a cheap shot.

So, on the whole, if this did come from the Dean camp, as it appears to (although technically, I could stamp "Paid for by Dean for America" on my magazine's masthead if I wanted to -- it would be illegal, but not mechanically impossible)...bad move, Dean people. Compare and contrast. People want to know why you're better, not why Clark is bad. People don't like "loyalty oath" politics (i.e. the "real Democrats") part.

I'll step up my criticism if someone credibly posts proof that these quotes are actually erroneous, fabricated or taken wildly out of context.

Edited to add: Any Dem campaign can bash Bush all it wants to. Flyers like this should be saved for the general election.

[funky_bug]

19. Thank you for your post

I feel the same way when Clark supporters attack your camp. Good to know we have solid, logical people all around us.

I was thinking the same thing: "You know, it's just politics. People will recognize that and defend it or attack it as such."

The difference for me, between the Dean tapes and the Clark flyer is that the media went after Dean (to be expected), but it looks like Dean went after Clark. Unexpected - really. He went up a notch when he fired those two posers. He's back down a notch now (in my eyes, I mean to say.)

[eyesroll]

29. What we don't know is who is responsible, and how high up that person is

This sort of thing is ickier (for lack of a better word) when it's a higher-up. In any large, decentralized campaign, you're going to have people who overstep the bounds of good taste. (I suppose some opponents might say that bounds-overstepper is the candidate. I'll save them the trouble. :eyes:)

It's hard to prove where it comes from anyway. If a low-level staffer takes the fall and gets fired (or quits), people will immediately assume it's just a scapegoat. This is true for any candidate, corporation, church, whatever.

Solid, logical people unite! :toast:

[funky_bug]

32. GREAT point!

"If a low-level staffer takes the fall and gets fired (or quits), people will immediately assume it's just a scapegoat."

Really great point. Logically minded... but I'm coming to expect that from you!

[Clark Can WIN]

83. Except the DFA spokesperson already said the campaign stands behind it.

That's a probelem.

[HFishbine]

22. There's only one reason I don't like it

A lot of time and effort is going to be spent spinning it if Clark is the VP.

But, otherwise it's fine with me. Here's why. There isn't one thing on there that isn't familiar to active DUers. But what about the "rest" of the voters? I'm quite certain that a number of the people who received this flyer probably read some, if not all, of this for the first time. Do they have any less right to be informed than those of us who are wired into DU? Is handing out a flyer that much different than posting on a message board? It's the same information, different medium.

[FubarFly]

25. I'd prefer if they ran a 100% clean campaign as well.

But I'd be naive to expect it. This is the big leagues. If Clark can't defend a legitmate challenge from Dean about his record, he doesn't deserve to be in the race. Conversely, Dean supporters have fended off far worse crap from some of the other campaigns. In the context of a presidential race, there is nothing unusual about this flyer.

[funky_bug]

31. I love how Clark responded

He issued a flyer (handed out to his supporters at his rally, and not visa versa) with quotes... yes you heard me, quotes. What kinds of quotes? Well, quotes from other candidates praising Clark... including quotes from DEAN praising Clark.

This man is a class act. He makes me proud.

[FubarFly]

36. I think the high road suits Clark very well.

And I admire his class.

But I think it will still be necessary to defend his actual record some day. His response seems more like a deflection than a rebuttal.

[funky_bug]

39. But his rebuttal is best suited...

...AGAINST the freepers. Keep it clean within your own party. Unity Baby, unity!

[FubarFly]

43. I am all for unity.

But I don't think the Iowa voters who will be questioning Clark's Democratic commitments are freepers. This is a legitmate obstacle for Clark to overcome.

[funky_bug]

58. I'm not so sure

It smells of political manuevering. I'm going to assume the voters are smart enough to see through that. Similar to the Dean tapes. Lord, haven't we ALL said things that would bite us today? People change - people change their minds. Dean did it, Clark did it... it's not an issue (like the Dean tapes) for me.

[FubarFly]

68. Yeah,

It's important not to get dragged down by the process. All sides will be throwing punches, and nobody should expect their candidate to be exempt. As long as we keep our personal grudges out of it, we should be able to unify in the end.

[Leilani]

95. Thank you for thoughtful post

I just saw a clip of Dean in a Q&A on Jim Lehrer (PBS).

Dean was asked about the Clark flyer; he said it was done at a lower level of the campaign, & was not his decision. He said however he stood by it completely as being factual, & went on to recite all the talking points in the flyer.

This Dean flyer is obviously not at the level of a Rove attack, however, I don't think it is constructive. Many quotes taken out of context, & really not necessary.

Dean's negatives are higher than any other candidate, & if he continues this kind of campaign, he not only hurts other campaigns, but he hurts himself.

[in_cog_ni_to]

18. I like how Clark responded to this.

His flyer has the quotes from Deam himself PRAISING Wes Clark. Much more class. Clark's a class act, Dean isn't.

[adadem]

24. seconded n/t

[funky_bug]

26. My GOD I love that man!

Our true nature is exposed when we're backed into a corner. Is this the general's true nature? Answered prayer, he is!

[in_cog_ni_to]

69. He sure is!

As someone on DU has said..."He's the president I was promised as a child." :) He is incredible. I so admire his ability to take the high road when he's attacked! THAT is not an easy thing to do. He's disciplined...another good quality for a president!

[realdem]

71. This Clark Being Backed into a COrner

Amazing! You think a silly flyer is an attack on Clark? Look at what others have done to Dean. When Clark withstands that, come talk. "In to a corner?"

[funky_bug]

73. I know...

it's only just begun. But then again, Clark hasn't put his foot in his mouth yet. Quite possibly, this is the best they can do?

[windansea]

27. yep

breeding always rises to the surface

[Duder]

33. Great response

...

However, New Hampshire press secretary for the Dean campaign, Matthew Gardner, said the Clark campaign has "a lot of gall" criticizing Dean when Elleithee and another Clark staff recently spent an hour at a restaurant in Merrimack making negative statements about Dean to the media.
...

Gardner said the Dean campaign does not engage in such Clark campaign tactics as dropping off literature critical of Dean at restaurants and not attaching its name to it.

Clark won’t respond to rivals’ criticism

[funky_bug]

45. Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?

The Dean camp is the one accusing Clark folk of negative talk. I The link you provided and quoted says:

"Elleithee and another Clark staff recently spent an hour at a restaurant in Merrimack making negative statements about Dean to the media."

The Dean camp says Clark staff did this? Jeez... did someone issue a gag order on the media all of a sudden? How come the media isn't letting us in on this little bash session? Is it, perhaps, because IT NEVER HAPPENED? I'll believe it when it's NOT quoted by a Dean staffer.

Edited b/c my fingers fly faster than my eyes catch typos.

[KittyWampus]

40. It Backfired On Dean

As he got negative press for it.

Dean's campaign is really sucking.

Even with the endoresments...

[RetroLounge]

51. The more I think about this, the more this flyer

bothers me. Even if some of it (may be) accurate.

This kind of shite should be save for the GE against bush*

[FubarFly]

57. I've actually been impressed by Dean's restraint.

When we go against b*sh, the kid gloves will come off.

As the expression goes: you ain't seen nothing yet. :evilgrin:

[realdem]

60. Riduculous

Clark has skated and taken advantage of Dean getting bashed from all sides. Clark has skipped debates soley to avoid the crutiny. He is beginning to be a scrpted candidate like Bush. Once Clark is in the crosshairs even half as much as Dean he will wilt. The flyres are great.

[RetroLounge]

63. I disagree.

Dean can go after Clark, I have no problem with that.

I just think the flyer was a bad way to do it.

[funky_bug]

72. Amen, brother!

We've got a bridge built, whenever you're ready to cross over.

http://www.ex-deaniacsforclark.com/MainPage.htm

PEACE!:smoke:

[Clark Can WIN]

106. Thanks Retro, as I have said before and wholeheartedly mean

If this were a shoe on my foot, I'd go barefoot!

I'm not into infiltrating other candidates rallies and distributing negative literature about them whether I believe it to be true or not. I would not defend it.

After the primaries............. HELL YA! Bring it all out for *. That's the ultimate goal.

[Crunchy Frog]

113. Thank you for saying that

I was always really disgusted by the other campaign's attacks on Dean, in fact that was one of the major turnoffs for me for the other candidates. I think it's unnatractive behavior whenever anyone is doing it.

[JaneQPublic]

55. How are these statements worse than, say, Gep's "DeanFacts"?

The same kind of "In His Own Words" quotes used in this supposed "smear" flyer against Clark has been made against Dean in a website by the Gephardt camp, called DeanFacts:

http://www.deanfacts.com/plugin/template/gephardt/224/*

And you can look at the webpage of almost any of the other candidates and run a search on "Dean" and find press releases very similar to the flyer Dean's camp released on Clark.

So why is it an outrage when it's done against Clark?

[Barbara917]

64. Gephardt did it to Dean so.....

Are you saying that because Gephardt is smearing Dean with out of context quotes, that that is OK. You must be. That seems to be the logic here. Since Gep did it to Dean it's OK for Dean to do it to Clark.

And this is how Dean plans to run a positive campaign? Gep's attacking Dean in Iowa so let's go attack Clark in New Hampshire. Uh-huh.

Please see my reply in post 48 above.

[Crunchy Frog]

114. Well, that kind of tactic

really backfired on Gephardt. It made him look ugly and it garnered sympathy and support for Dean. It may even be the main thing that's destroyed Gephardts campaign.

I am not at all outraged by this incident, in fact, being a hardline Clark partisan I'm somewhat pleased about it because I believe it will damage Dean much more than it will damage Clark, if it doesn't actually make Clark look even more attractive to voters than he already does.

[isbister]

62. As long as its accurate...

...a candidate's "record" is fair game.

With a candidate like Clark (no voting record to stand upon, I've had stuff in my fridge longer than he's been a Democrat) these types of comments, and his past republican voting record, give us an indication about who this man is.

Anyone running for office can get up and promise the world and we like to hear their ideas and plans. For me, an important part of the decision-making process is not only what a candidate promises but also what they have done in the past that would make me think the promises will be kept.

As long as the information being presented about any of the candidates is accurate the public should know.

[seventhson]

81. Not to mention first amendment issues

If Dean WANTED to leaflet these cars his fliers would have been a lot smarter than these frauds or fools made them

[funky_bug]

85. Haven't you heard?

The Dean Camp already acknowledge that they authorized the flyers.

[in_cog_ni_to]

100. Facts don't matter to seventhson.

He HATES Clark...in case you didn't notice.

[janx]

65. ENOUGH! Enough of this garbage!

This is sewage and attendant shit!

[seventhson]

79. It looks like blackops to me

Not Dean's doing at all.

ONE: everything in it is true, but the presentation is nastily done to reflect badly on Dean. That is a classic Rove tactic to smear Dean.

TWO: By putting the Dean name on it leads directly back, without attribution, to Dean volunteers.

It COULD have been real but, IMHO, it is a big so what: It was ALL true, including the comments about Rove.

If anybody has looked at the Clark record, you will see that he wqas lobbying the White Houe when he was considering his run for Prez and his comments were taken seriously by those he said them to.

Nothing about them has been debunked except in certain folks' minds here.

This MY have been the work of tacky Dean volunteers. But I smell a set up. Even STILL, the flyers are basically all true.

Mountain out of molehills and more desperation blackops on the part of the Stephens Group and the (hair) Club for Growth to smear Dean


Ridiculous waste of space, really - But it does NOT reflect badly on Dean at a;;.

You got nuthin' (to quote Jon Stewart)

[funky_bug]

82. Shooting points

To quote you: "ONE: everything in it is true, but the presentation is nastily done to reflect badly on Dean. That is a classic Rove tactic to smear Dean.

TWO: By putting the Dean name on it leads directly back, without attribution, to Dean volunteers."

Except, the Dean camp has admitted handing them out already. That pretty much shoots your first two points.

[meow mix]

88. *sigh*

more flyers are coming out. more smear material... revamped after the story broke.

its not a conspiracy - just rotten campaigning.

[seventhson]

96. provocateurs and infiltrators

probably

[Clark Can WIN]

107. Only if you consider the DFA spokesperson to be a

provocateur and/or infiltrator. The tinfoil boat on the river of denial is sinking.

[JohnKleeb]

91. Then why did y'alls ask him to be VP :)

:shrug:
:)

[funky_bug]

93. You know...

That's why I love you Kucinich people!

Nicely done.

[in_cog_ni_to]

103. John Kleeb,

:yourock:

[bicentennial_baby]

109. A Kiss for John!

:loveya:

[RandomUser]

118. LOL

That was perfect, John. :)

[seventhson]

133. John - I never did

and I doubt if Dean did either.

I believe there were discussions about it -- but I believe Clark is lying about the details.

[JVS]

137. That was all bullshit to postpone the big flame fest that we have today

And don't use Y'all, because I have never wanted Clark on a ticket

[Melinda]

94. The truth hurts? Goodness gracious, toughen up General!!

[Clark Can WIN]

116. You mean like draft dodging and tax raising could hurt?

Tuth like that?

[seventhson]

98. Did Dean's campaign say they did it? Link anyone?

several folks here say they did. Got proof?

[in_cog_ni_to]

104. Find a link yourself. It's all over the internet.

And was reported on TV. The flyer was shown on TV and the Dean camp has already admitted it. Your argument is moot. You'll have to think of a new excuse.

[genius]

115. And who does Dean expect to vote for him?

Does he really think that the supporters of the candidates he's lied about will vote for him?

[roguevalley]

123. I've watched this kind of crap since before Nixon and it never works

for you. To go to someone's moment and step on it with
negativity blows back on you, it makes you look small.
I don't want to hear its 'just politics'. What it truly
is, is stupid. We've had thirty years of this and the
public isn't totally stupid. They will hear of this and
hold it against the person doing it. Dean has to be
smarter.

You lose elections in the small things, not the big.

[JPJones]

122. Link

http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/pindell/2003/december/1_8clark.shtml

Dean campaign spokesman Matthew Gardner previously confirmed that Dean volunteers were at Clark events Tuesday and Wednesday distributing information about the ret.- general.

[deminflorida]

124. Just Calm Down....It' Just a Flyer..

Maybe somebody, i.e. Third Party...should start playing the clips from the Dean Tapes, along with recordings of his current statements...you know the ones like...

Where he agreed Iraq was dangerous,

George Bush was a Moderate,

George Bush would be elected to two terms...


Make a T.V. Commercial...let everyone see the words flowing from Dean's own mouth....

[Padraig18]

125. THIS is the infamous 'attack' flyer?

THIS is what has Clark supporter's panties in a wad? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

If Wes Clark's tender sensibilities can't handle the truth, KKKarl Rove is going to eat him alive when he starts LYING about him. :eyes:

[Phelan]

127. What people are upset about is not necessarily the content

But rather that Dean would ask everyone to play nice because we don't want to hurt our frontrunner (Dean) but obviously does not expect the same rules about going negative to apply to him. And don't tell me this is not 'going negative', it fits an definition I have heard quite nicely.

[Padraig18]

138. Ummm, no.

I grew up in Chicago, and if this is 'negative', we have a VERY different understanding of the term; this is, at worst, 'tacky'.

[democratreformed]

140. Yeah, tacky seems like a good description to me too n/t

[CWebster]

126. Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Aren't these the facts that usually put y'all to sleep? whatcha all in a snit about?

[JVS]

143. LOL. Yeah, shouldn't they be yawning?

[seventhson]

130. I am downloading this flyer myself

It is a damn good one and truth,

I wish there was a FLYER just on his lobbying ties to the military contractors whem he began his run for Prez,

Anybody see Bill Moyers last night?

Clark is definitely a Pentagonian Lobbyist, just like Cheney, but in faux DEM clothing

YOU vote for him

NOT ME.

Never, probably.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasSissy]

134. I love Clark. I'm voting for him.

Like I'm going to pay attention to anything put out by Dean supporters? He and his supporters are not exactly getting a reputation for honesty and ethical behavior. I don't want someone like that in the WH. I have that already.

[mmonk]

136. The problem with the flyers

for those who want to accept its premises. While some of it may technically or semantically not appear as a lie, its premises are not truthful.

#1. Clark was unaffiliated and voted independently before he registered as a democrat. Therefore, he isn't a republican. He has considered himself as a democrat since 1992.

#2. The republican fundraiser and the conclusion that he supports the premise of the Iraq invasion or the policies of bush, Cheney, and Pearle. He mentioned the Iraq war, its premise, the PNAC position on foreign policy and Pearle and Cheney on NPR radio and pointed out how he was against it. He has also pointed out the same things in "Winning Modern Wars" (his book) and mentions the PNAC, Cheney, and Pearle and writes whats wrong about it as a strategy and what's wrong about it for America. Can someone tell me if any other candidate has mentioned or gone in depth about the PNAC, what it stands for, who is in it, and what is wrong with it? I haven't heard any other candidate address it in reference to the Iraq war. That convinces me that Clark is the main one to take on the foreign policies of this administration.

And these things are what really is untruthful about the flyers.

[killbotfactory]

141. Look out for the WOLF! WOLF! WOLF! Run away!

Oh wait, it's just a mouse.

Clark shouldn't lie about his support for the Iraq war. I took him at his word that he was against it, but then checked the record and lost respect for him. You can't write an editorial praising Bush and Blair for their resolve, while claiming the Iraq war will have a positive effect on the middle east, and that it will silence critics, and still be against the war.