John Kerry challenges Howard Dean to debate on National Security

[flpoljunkie]

http://blog.johnkerry.com/blog/archives/000911.html

Today, John Kerry issued a statement challenging Howard Dean to "a full, frank, and open debate on America's national security." Dean's controversial statements on a number of foreign policy issues had already earned him a rocky week in the nation's media. And President Bush has signaled that he plans to put national security issues at the heart of his re-election campaign.

Here is John Kerry's statement:

“Job number one of the President of the United States is to make America safe. That’s why it’s so troubling that on the question of national security, in the past week alone Governor Dean has made a series of comments that betray a shoot-from-the-hip style and a troubling tendency to flip-flop. A candidate who treats America’s national security this way won’t be elected President of the United States – and frankly doesn’t deserve to be elected.

"On Sunday, Governor Dean said the capture of Saddam Hussein marked “a great day for the Iraqi people, the U.S., and the international community.” But the very next day, Governor Dean personally wrote a line into his prepared speech stating that “the capture of Saddam has not made America safer.” He made the bizarre assertion that Saddam Hussein’s capture “could have taken place six months ago.” He stated that, as President he would have acted in Iraq “had the United Nations given us permission and asked us to be a part of a multilateral force” – implying that he would give nations like China, France and Russia unprecedented veto power over America’s security.

"Perhaps he didn’t mean to say all of these things. Perhaps there’s some reasonable explanation for what he was really trying to get across. But it is clear that, in this past week alone, Governor Dean has added immeasurably to the already significant doubts about his ability to be Commander-in-Chief.

"Before we nominate a candidate to challenge a war-time President running for reelection on a dangerous doctrine of preemption, our Party needs to talk about these issues honestly and openly. That’s why today I challenge Governor Dean to a full, frank, and open debate on America’s national security. The stakes are too high to sweep the discussion over America’s safety under the rug.

"I hope Governor Dean will accept this offer. It’s good for our country. It’s good for our party. And if Howard Dean can’t debate national security with his fellow Democrats, how in the world can he expect to be able to stand on a stage and face George W. Bush?”

__________________

The ball is in your court, Dr. Dean.

[Northwind]

1. Why should Dean

Waste his valuable time debating a 3rd-tier joke of a candidate?

[Octafish]

4. Dean knows how to dodge the draft.

That's about all he and his bad back know regarding national security.

[HFishbine]

6. It would seem to be that that limited knowledge

is more an atribute of some Dean bashers.

[Octafish]

13. Dean admitted himself he dodged the draft. Where you been?

Dean admits using deferment to skirt draft

November 24, 2003

BY DAVID RENNIE

WASHINGTON -- Howard Dean, the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, has admitted dodging the Vietnam draft, obtaining a medical deferment for a back condition and then spending 10 months skiing.

Asked if he could have served 33 years ago despite his back condition, Dean told the New York Times: "I guess that's probably true. I mean, I was in no hurry to get into the military."

Dean's candor may not have been wholly voluntary.

With his campaign under intense scrutiny from Democratic rivals, it was only a matter of time before attacks focused on his remarkable recovery from spondylolesthesis, a painful condition caused by a misalignment of the spine.

CONTINUED...

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-dean24.html

[IndianaGreen]

27. Do you know the difference between tax dodging and tax avoidance?

Accounting 101:

To dodge taxes is to illegally avoid paying moneys due on one's income. To avoid taxes is to use provisions in the tax code to legally reduce one's tax liability. The former is illegal, the latter is legal.

The same applies to the draft. To dodge the draft is to use false statements to avoid induction, e.g., claiming that one is gay when one is hetero. To avoid the draft is to use one the provisions in the law to avoid being drafted, e.g., enrolling in a seminary to become a preacher was an automatic exemption for the draft. Many young men of my generation "found" Jesus that way.

Dean avoided the draft.

BTW, dodging the draft in a war like Vietnam and Iraq (and whatever other wars Bush's dreams about) is patriotic and noble and righteous.

Mohammed Ali was right in dodging the draft!

SPORTS HERO:
MUHAMMED ALI
by Jaime Marcus



Inspiring billions has been an arduous work in progress for Ali. Many Americans were slighted by his brazen "I am the greatest" anthem. White America couldn't fathom a black man being so presumptuous. These same Americans were also enraged by Cassius Clay's insistence on relinquishing what he called his "slave name" for the Muslim name, Muhammad Ali. "I don't have to be what you want me to be; I'm free to be what I want," Ali said of his name change.

The relationship did not improve much when Ali spoke out against Vietnam, refusing to join the Army during the war. His short defense "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong" spoke volumes, but the media vilified him. The government prosecuted him for draft dodging, and the boxing commission took away his license. He was idle for three and a half years during what should have been the peak of his career.

http://myhero.com/hero.asp?hero=m_ali

[Jerseycoa]

102. Heh

"I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong"

A polite version if I ever heard one.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

29. I suppose Kerry gets FP advice from Conrad Black,

just as you seem to.

[IndianaGreen]

48. Kerry is also getting financial advice from Conrad Black, no doubt

Having to take a mortgage on his Georgetown home to finance his campaign is the sort of financial straits that Conrad Black finds himself nowadays.

For those not in the know, Black is a rigthwing publisher. He was just fired as head of Hollinger, and he may be forced to see his publishing empire put on the auction block. Hollinger owns Chicago Tribune and Jerusalem Post.

[Scott Lee]

110. POOP.

[La_Serpiente]

142. Wipe your mouth while your at it

Don't want it to run or anything

[Scott Lee]

145. Oh chill, Will. You still have your book.

[mouse7]

158. Dean and FDR both dodged the draft (disabled athletes stuff)

I'm really sick of seeing DEMOCRATS throwing out this neocon skiing crap. I expect better from us.

Lets list a few people who would be given 1-Y or 4-f status at some point in their athletic careers.

- LANCE ARMSTRONG!!!!! - Cancer survivors have to be cancer free for years before they can even be remotely considered capable of military service. Armstrong is also missing a testicle, a piece of one lung, and was treated for brain tumor. Automatic disqualifiers.

- Mario Lemeiux - also a cancer survivor, missing his spleen, disqualifier (Canadian citizen, though... just an example)

- Bo Jackson while he was still playing Major League Baseball. (hip replacement - no plastic hips in the military)

- Jim Abbott (pretty obvious, but he threw a no-hitter one-handed, so he gets on all these kinda lists)

-Casey Martin (PGA golfer who sued to use cart on PGA tour)

-Here's some links to disabled skiers and water-skiers, too...

http://www.complete-skier.com/Resorts/Country/USA/Utah/Disabled/
http://www.nscd.org/
http://keneva.com/LookMa.htm

Gee... that looks like skiing that FDR could have done were he alive today. Would you be yelling about FDR skiing during Vietnam conflict? Dean was disqualified from service because of the 75 pound pack requirements. Almost any back problem will disqualify someone because they cannot carry heavy backpacks for long periods of time as is required.

So what's next... Are you gonna have Poppy Bush call out people with glasses because they didn't meet military pilot eyesight requirements?

[IndianaGreen]

16. Dean didn't dodge the draft, that's a GOP smear

In addition, I challenge anyone on this board to tell me they would willingly go to Vietnam, and Iraq, knowing the nature of those wars and the millions of civilian casualties in Vietnam and Iraq.

Anyone care to enlist?

Kerry's foreign policy "credentials" were negated by his vote for IWR, and his subsequent statements that indicate a support for a PNAC-Lite foreign policy, another name for American imperialism and hegemony.

The Kerry that is running for President today is not the Kerry that opposed the Vietnam War and, together with other veterans, founded the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. (Kerry embellished his own antiwar record with the myth that he was the sole founder of VVAW).

[TLM]

129. GASP! You mean Kerry and CLark folks are using GOP smears against Dean?

Next thing you'll be telling me the sky is blue and the pacific ocean is wet.

[LiberalBushFan]

141. GOP smears! bleghgh!

Not tasteful at all, unlike Dean's Democratically Democratic smears that the GOP steals FROM HIM!

[TLM]

161. Really...when did bush last call a democrat Bush lite

for voting with Bush on the IWR or no child left behind?

[virtualobserver]

18. Wheras Kerry learned nothing from War

and sent young Americans to die and get their legs blown off so that he wouldn't be branded an anti-war candidate.

I didn't want to believe that about Kerry, but after watching him apologize for his War vote, then proudly take credit for the vote when Saddam was caught, I now know what kind of a man Kerry really is.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

31. Got a link to Kerry's statement(s) after SH was captured?

I gotta see this.

[virtualobserver]

43. I don't....someone else posted an interview transcript earlier this week

I was reacting today to the Altercation weblog from Alterman

-snip
Yes, to those of you who asked, I am feeling that Senator Kerry did saw off that limb onto which I had climbed for him vis-à-vis his vote for the war when he started bragging about it after Saddam’s capture. The ultimate lesson here, I guess, comes from my old friend and mentor Izzy Stone. “Don’t trust any politician. Period.”

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3449870/

[IndianaGreen]

44. Why don't you use DU's search function yourself?

Kerry and Lieberman's self-serving statements on the capture of Saddam were extensively posted and discussed in DU. Use the search function yourself, and find out what has been said.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

51. Like this?

Senator John Kerry, whose position on the Iraq war has been the most contorted of the Democrats—he has sought to combine a vote for the war resolution with appeals to popular antiwar sentiment—reverted back to a defense of his pro-war vote.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=26264

[IndianaGreen]

54. That's a WSWS article

I share the views of WSWS on most issues, but many DUers have a different world-view resulting from 150 years of anti-Socialist propaganda in America's schools and media.

[Scott Lee]

109. POOP.

[Hawkeye-X]

131. May I remind you that Dean received 1Y deferment

Doesn't look like dodging the draft to me. He has proven medical condition. He went to the Army at his appointed time, and proved it. What is it with you and dodging drafts?

Kerry voted for the IWR which wasted over 150 billion looking for one schmuck who had nothing to do with the 9/11, and doesn't have WMDs. Where's the justification, hmm?

[zulchzulu]

169. Another Dean apologist with well-memorized lies

[Hawkeye-X]

172. And how is Kerry trying to defend his IWR vote?

He isn't. He blew it again after the capture of Mr. Hussein.

I speak the truth. Kerry isn't. And you defend this man?

I think you can find yourself steaming when Kerry decides to drop out in NH and supporting someone else who'll then drop out. The only man left standing with be Dr. Howard Dean. Then what are you going to do? Vote for *?

Hawkeye-X

[RetroLounge]

150. Yeah, whatever.

please explain how fighting in Viet-Nam would equate to Foreign Policy Experience and national security.

I'm waiting...

I'm still waiting...

[jeter]

160. I say Dean should

He can blow the race wide open.

Imagine the coverage. One on one, mano a mano. Dean vs. Kerry on National Security.

Tell me that this wouldn't get coverage. Tell me that this would not be run by all the cable networks.

If he wins, he could do away with all the national security talk among Washington Democrats.

Sure this is a desperate move by Kerry. But it could also destroy his candidacy. It could also ensure Dean the nomination.

I say Dean should do this.

[Demobrat]

9. A one-on-one debate with Dean

would position Kerry as a viable candidate. You can't really blame him for trying this ploy.

[IndianaGreen]

58. Kerry is in single digits

Let him debate Kucinich so that Dennis drives that wooden stake through Kerry's moribund vanity campaign so it never rises again.

[Demobrat]

62. I disagree.

I think a debate with Sharpton would reap the same result, and be a hell of a lot more fun!

[IndianaGreen]

65. Fer sure!

Some of our best candidates are in the "lower tier." And why are they in the "lower tier"? Because the media doesn't cover them, which keeps their numbers down, commesurate with the number of people that have actually listened to them.

When it comes to network TV, the news networks have already decided who they want in the race, and what sort of conflict they want shown in order to drive ratings up. This is why the media obsesses over whatever minor differences there are among the "top tier" candidates rather than talk about the commonalities.

We are cheating no one but ourselves by approaching the selection of our Presidential nominee in the same manner in which we choose a consumer product.

[flpoljunkie]

72. Yepsen,Des Moines Register,on CNN race in Iowa "bunched up"...

And few people, of course, know Iowa and the politics there better than veteran reporter and columnist,
Dave Yepsen of the "Des Moines Register." And he's with us now to continue our countdown to the caucus.

<>
Help us sort this out.

DAVID YEPSEN, POLITICAL COLUMNIST, "DES MOINES REGISTER": Well, Governor Dean is ahead, I
think, by a little bit, not much ahead of Dick Gephardt. And an interesting thing has developed in the
battle for third and second.

John Kerry has picked up some. He's actually closing in, I think, on Gephardt for the second place right
now. So it's a very bunched-up race.

<>

YEPSEN: That's right, Bob. And I think Judy had it right in her piece. There is a lot of undecidedness here.
And the reason for that is these caucus-goers are pretty sophisticated people and they know they've got an
important choice here to make for their party: who do they want to field against George W. Bush?

And so they'll have some initial favorites, they'll have some old favorites, but they know there are a couple
of more debates to go. They always know that these unexpected events, like the capture of Saddam
Hussein, can have an impact on the race. And so they're perfectly content to watch this thing play out to
the very end before they decide. It should make an interesting on caucus night.

FRANKEN: Well, it should be. Now there's an interesting point that has to be made, and that is the
expectations game. Howard Dean has gone from the lowest of expectations to, if he doesn't really hit a
home run in Iowa, his campaign can be hurt. Is that how you look at it?

YEPSEN: I think so. And I know Governor Dean's people are worried about that.

A candidate has to be in a position to surprise people like you and me on caucus night. It's called beating
the expectations. Howard Dean is now expected to win Iowa. And by some of these polls, there's an
expectation that he has to win it big. I think he's got to keep his expectations in check.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0312/19/ip.00.html

[Rose Siding]

136. There is no pressure for Dean in Iowa to

"wow" them or win big. For him to come from so far behind to beat the old seasoned pol is enough. 8-10 points ahead, and Yepsen can't bear to call it a lead.

I have some "undecidedness" of my own about Yepsen's continuing partiality.

[Ficus]

183. Yepsen sux

I hate the guy. His columns are nothing but Democrat bashing, from our House and Senate to the Gov. and Tom Harkin. Screw him, nothing he says has any validity.

[oasis]

149. Yepsen says "Gov. Dean's people are worried". No hint of worry here at DU.

But then, unlike Yepsen, we're not in Iowa with our finger on the pulse of what's going on.

Ignorance continues to be bliss.:toast:

[flpoljunkie]

170. Hillary Clinton reminded us recently that Bill was at 4% this time in 1991

National polls don't mean a lot at this point. The situation is very fluid, as David Yepsen, of the Des Moines Register, and others, note.

[bearfartinthewoods]

34. remember that reasoning when bush is too busy to bother with debates

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

77. Apples, meet Oranges.

Whereas Dem-Puke debates have a long history, Dem-Dem solo debates, within a field of 9, have none.

[bearfartinthewoods]

135. oh....the groundbreaking new wave dean is now going to fall back

on tradition??

[WiseMen]

185. Isn't it about time we has a REAL DEBATE?

[HFishbine]

2. Geez - talk about flip flops

One of Kerry's defenses for his IWR vote was that he expected Bush to get the UN behind the effort, then he critizes Dean for positing the same thing.

Dean would mop the floor with Kerry in a head to head debate. But I don't think he'll do it. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that Kerry has no business asking for a "special" debate that excludes those currently running second, or third, or fourth, or fifth.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[clarknyc]

11. What's the matter, Senator Kerry?

Are you desparate?

[Octafish]

14. No. The DEMs are.

If Dean is the nominee, it's four more years of Bush.

Happy?

[clarknyc]

You believe that.

But you can't know that. It's just an opinion that I disagree with.

[molly]

15. Well, they could charge admission - sell it to the media

and split the "donations" for their campaigns.

[drfemoe]

147. you mean

like a joint fund-raiser-debate? How about a wet t-shirt contest? Would JK settle for that?

[paulk]

17. it's not a matter of being desperate

it's a matter of the Democratic party fielding the best candidate we can. Why not debate on national security? Why not make an informed decision?

[Demobrat]

19. I agree. But why not include everyone?

Clark claims he can beat Bush on national security alone. Why doesn't Kerry want to debate him?

[molly]

24. I'm speculating he does, but Kerry wants

to eliminate the lightweights first.

[AWD]

28. Then he should drop out

[paulk]

36. Oh, I get it! It'a joke!

Hahaha.

Is this meant as a rebuttal of Kerry's idea?

[paulk]

33. Kerry's statement doesn't necessarily preclude other Dems.

It would be great if Clark, Gep, Edwards, and the rest took him up on this. It's something I would really like to see, actually.

[Demobrat]

59. You mean the lightweight

who's beating him in his own state? Yeah, I bet he'd like to eliminate him.

[virtualobserver]

21. Dean had the courage to stand up against Bush

Kerry wasn't willing to take the politcal risk, so he voted with Bush with the mistaken assumption that it would further his political career.

[paulk]

39. I realize this is the standard talking point

but don't you think that national security/foreign policy experience IS important? Being the "anti-Bush", how is that a qualification for the presidency?

Dean has no experience in this area, while several of the other Dem candidates have it in spades. Shouldn't this be part of the debate?

[virtualobserver]

40. common sense is far more important than "experience",

especially when nothing is learned from that experience.

[paulk]

45. can't argue with that

mostly 'cause it's the dumbest thing I've heard in awhile.

Yeah, "common sense" trumps "experience" everytime.

Common sense itself would tell you that someone who's done something before just might be better at it than someone who's never done it at all. Don't you think?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

64. Kerry did it before

and still made the wrong choice. I guess common sense can trump actual experience.

[paulk]

78. Oh, yeah - the IWR vote

the other talking point. So 20 years of solid liberal, progressive leadership just goes by the board for one vote?

What worries me about this rationale is it's shallowness. This is not the way to choose a president. Would you choose a car this way? Do you fall for the glitzy ads, the shiny chrome of this year's model - or do you go with the company with the proven, reliable track record?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

88. Oh, so in this case

we should ignore Kerry's 'experience', first hand experience of being in an immoral war and seeing his friends die, and let him get away with voting to let it happen to the next generation. Sorry, but I'm just not that forgiving.

[paulk]

96. Kerry's vote for the IWR was not an automatic vote for war

I know you would like it to be. It would make things so much easier. You wouldn't have to question the Doctor, then - especially since Howard Dean's position was fundamentally the same. You know, the Governor, under certain conditions, was all for a unilateral, preemptive invasion of Iraq. And his support of this wasn't even tempered by serving in Vietnam.

Howard Dean was among the minority of Democrats who supported the first Gulf War. Yet, apparently, you "forgive" him this. Why?

[Scott Lee]

111. Oh it was indeed!

Anyone in congress who claims not to have believed giving Bushhole the authorization to make war on Iraq would result in war is either a liar or an idiot - either way rendering them unfit for public office.

[zulchzulu]

180. So that would include Dean then...

Well, Dean was unemployed at the time, but he supported the war initially until Trippi whispered in his ear.

[virtualobserver]

84. experience has apparently taught Kerry nothing

"Common sense" does trump "experience" in that case.

Kerry has no experience as a chief executive whereas Dean has a decade of that kind of experience.

Common sense tells me that if someone bungles a campaign, they would not be well equipped to do political battle with the Republicans.

[paulk]

97. the campaign is not over

I would put your "bungled campaign" rhetoric on the back burner.

Not everyone believes that being Governor of a state with a population of just over 600k is the kind of executive experience that qualifies one to govern a nation of over 250 million.

Kerry does have the experience of working for 20 years in the dog eat dog Washington political environment - where he had above average success in pushing a liberal, progressive agenda.

You say:

"experience has apparently taught Kerry nothing"

then let the sentence hang...

How has it taught him nothing? Why do you believe this?

[virtualobserver]

108. His Vietnam experience should have enabled him to see through the lies

Instead he became so deeply connected to the Bush argument for war that he felt compelled to vote for the IWR. He either accepted too many of their fundamental assumptions about Iraq, or he felt too politically vulnerable to vote against the resolution.

The decision to go to war was unjustified. It was obvious to me during the summer preceding the IWR vote that the evidence supporting war against Iraq was flimsy, and that the Administration was hell-bent on War. They were obviously playing up the "danger" of Saddam.

I could see it from my house, and Kerry couldn't see it from his Senate office.


BTW... Since Kerry was the early favorite and is now polling behind Sharpton in some polls, I think that the term "bungled campaign" can safely be used.

[zulchzulu]

126. Dean would be seeing waffles if he debated Kerry

Why wouldn't Dean want to debate Kerry in New Hampshire. They are one and two.

Sounds like Dean's pants need changing to me.

[MaineDem]

3. Good for you, Senator!

This I'd like to see!

[quinnox]

5. Dean would never accept, he knows the outcome

would be a massacre for him. He would be too scared to accept a debate like this, but I'm sure there will be some Dean supporters who will paint his refusal as some sort of heroic act, just like his skiing during Vietnam. What a hero.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

35. A hero like this?

[clarknyc]

7. How silly.

Never underestimate John Forbes Kerry's sense of entitlement. It's quite presumptuous to exclude the rest of the candidates from a debate just to stroke your own ego.

[paulk]

20. do you dislike Kerry because of his "sense of entitlement"

or because of his national security positons?

[clarknyc]

23. I don't dislike Senator Kerry.

I just think that sometimes he can be a pompous ass.

[molly]

26. How so?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

37. See original post.

[paulk]

41. If you saw a deabate between Dean and Kerry

and came away from it feeling that Kerry was far better qualified in that area than Dean, would you still vote for Dean because Kerry is a "pompous ass"?

[clarknyc]

46. Dunno

How do you measure "far better qualified?" Let me put it this way: Kerry would need to earn my support, not just expect it. So far, he hasn't made the case.

[Demobrat]

70. What positions?

First he tries to justify his war vote by saying he was tricked, then he brags about it. Who knows what the guy really thinks.

[paulk]

82. Kerry has a long record of liberal, progressive voting

He's served on the Senate Foreign Relations Commitee for 16 years.
The only other Democrat who comes close to him on National Security issues experience is Wesley Clark.

His "position" boils down to pretty much that - his experience.


Although his IWR vote disappointed me, I thought he justified it. He has been consistant in his rationale - if you want to know what he really thinks, check out his voting record.

[molly]

10. That's great! This is the 2nd time he has challenged

Dean. If the tables were turned and Dean challenged Kerry, Kerry would accept in a heartbeat. If Dean won't debate Kerry, how can he debate anyone - one on one?

[TLM]

115. A dem v dem one on one debate would not be fair to the other dems

there are 8 democrats running, and Clark.... so why should Kerry get some special debate with the frontrunner that excludes all the other canddiates?

That is just typical Kerry arrogance.

[oasis]

153. Kerry would level anyone in the current field of Democrats. Foreign or

domestic policy.

[mouse7]

164. NOT.

All Dean would have to do is ask Kerry to explain his Iraq position at the beginning of the debate. Kerry would ramble for the duration of the debate and still not come up with an answer. Kerry has been trying to come up with an answer for his Iraq position for more than a year now and has failed to come up with a way to communicate all the twists and turns of his position to people.

Hell, Will Pitt was there at Al Franken's place when half the press corps jumped on him to make his Iraq position concise. What progress he had made with the Rolling Stone interview got thrown out the window by Kerry stumbling all over himself to congratulate Bush for Saddam.

Dean doesn't need to beat Kerry. Kerry's doing that for him.

[Andromeda]

165. Why should Dean accept?

He doesn't have to. He's already the frontrunner. Kerry is about fifth or sixth in most polls now. Kerry doesn't have anything to lose by debating Dean so why shouldn't he grandstand and try to draw attention to himself---nothing else seems to be working.

[CTLawGuy]

12. I think before Dean accepts the debate

Kerry should regain the lead in his home state of MA from Dean. Or at least show evidence of a state where he has half a chance to win.

[sfecap]

22. Polling nationally at 6% ...dead last.

Kerry assumes that anyone cares to hear him debate. Pretty arrogant. But that's always been his strong suit...arrogance and a sense of entitlement.

LOL.

[IndianaGreen]

32. Sharpton is polling higher than Kerry

and for good reason too!

[AWD]

25. That's twice now....

John Kerry seems to enjoy forgetting that7 other people exist in this primary. 4 of those often poll higher than you, John.

[quinnox]

30. Dean doesn't want to face questions like - You might be Howard Dean if

you change your policy positions depending on the latest poll results.

If you have a temper tantrum when anyone asks a question you don't like.

If you have no principles, and hypocritically accuse others of doing things that you do yourself.

If you missed your calling as a cult leader.

If you are a phony running as a liberal, but don't want to talk about your centrist record as governor.

If you use any gimmick you can to raise money, be it a recent news item or a self made specious accusation.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

47. Ignorance must be bliss!

you change your policy positions depending on the latest poll results.

Against the war when the majority of Americans supported it.

If you have a temper tantrum when anyone asks a question you don't like.

Of course you have a link to Dean throwing a tantrum? Didn't think so.

If you have no principles, and hypocritically accuse others of doing things that you do yourself.

Like matching funds, perhaps?

If you missed your calling as a cult leader.

?

If you are a phony running as a liberal, but don't want to talk about your centrist record as governor.

"I am in the center," he said. "I balanced budgets. The president hasn't done so. I believe that states have the right to make their own gun laws, after enforcing the federal laws vigorously. There's nothing that's not centrist about me."-- Howard Dean http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/dean.lkl/

If you use any gimmick you can to raise money, be it a recent news item or a self made specious accusation.

Like this:

https://contribute.johnkerry.com/?team=0016

[RevolutionStartsNow]

53. LOL RiF, I'm right behind you!

That was too easy. :)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

73. It's like

[RevolutionStartsNow]

50. Hmmm, this is fun:

Clever little rant, but totally BS:

1) Dean has stood firm on his stance on Iraq, esp after the capture of Saddam, despite polls suggesting he should do otherwise. Also on his position on the Bush Tax. You must be thinking of some other candidate.

2) Temper tantrum? Can you show me the last temper tantrum Dean had? Seems like certain other candidates are spending time lashing out a Dean in a tantrum-like way, while Dean cruises ahead.

3) Dean has no principles? That one I don't even have to touch.

4) Cult leader? Yeah, I know, that's a popular accusation, not sure I can debunk it because it's so silly, so you can have that one! Dean is like a Cult Leader! Go Dean!

5) "Don't want to talk about your centrist record as a governor..." Dean talks about his record all the time. Want some links?

6) Fund-raising gimmicks: I'm sure all of the other candidates would fall all over themselves to have the fundraising success of Gov. Dean. His supporters are committed to victory, and we know that will cost a few bucks. Money, time, letters, whatever, we're there. You call it gimmicks, I call it clever. And everyone calls it successful.

Hey thanks, it was fun playing with you. :hi:

[HFishbine]

38. Once again, having little faith in the democratic agenda,

a candidate falls into the trap of allowing the repukes to define the issues.

[IndianaGreen]

42. And Kerry wants the media to drop all the other candidates

from the debates. How democratic of Kerry! How much Kerry sounds like Ted Koppel during that disgusting ABC debate in which Koppel berated Dennis, Sharpton, and Mosley-Braun for still being in the race (never mind that not a single vote has been cast).

[WilliamPitt]

49. How is Dean not a punk if he dodges this?

[IndianaGreen]

55. Kerry wants all the other candidates to be kept out of a debate

in order to salvage his "vanity" campaign for President, to use Ted Koppel's offensive words he used on Kucinich.

[WilliamPitt]

56. Well, several candidates have made the point

that a debate with everyone on the stage at the same time isn't a debate at all. Maybe they can figure out some good pairings. Kerry and Dean, Clark and Kerry, Clark and Edwards, Dean and Kucinich, etc.

[adadem]

60. I believe the DNC

has failed miserably in putting these debates together. What a waste of time using the format they did.

[IndianaGreen]

69. We should let the League of Women Voters run the debates

particularly the Presidential debates in Fall 2004, and we should keep the DNC and RNC out of them altogether!

These are OUR debates, the people's debates, not the Beltway hacks' debates.

[Jerseycoa]

68. That's one I'd love to see

Dean and Kucinich }(

[TLM]

116. So you would support Kerry's arrogant call to get a special debate...

The flip flopping fraud Kerry wants to get a special one on one debate with the frontrunner that bars all the other candidates, WHO ARE POLLING BETTER THAN KERRY, from attending the debate? How typically arrogant.

Why can’t Kerry use the existing debate time to bring up these issues… why does he deserve a special debate just to try and jump start his losing campaign? Maybe if Kerry used existing debate time to actually debate issues instead of trying to play gotcha with Dean over decade old out of context quotes… he wouldn’t need a special debate.

[RetroLounge]

154. What crap, and you know it.

Yeah, then CMB can debate each of the other 8, then Edwards can, then DK can, then blah blah blah.

A desperate ploy by a losing candidate.

Which will be rightfully ignored.

[Jerseycoa]

157. I would like to see

Dean accept the challenge of a debate with Kerry on national security. I would like to see Dean challenge Clark to a debate on domestic policy. I would like to see Kucinich challenge Dean to a debate on health care. I would like to see Gephardt challenge Dean to a debate on labor policy. I would like Carol Moseley-Braun to debate Dean on women's rights. I would like to see Dean debate Edwards on corporatism. I would like Lieberman to challenge Dean to a debate on the war. I would like Dean to debate Sharpton on race relations.

If Dean's the frontrunner and so many are sure he will be the winning nom, then let him debate everybody. The voters will get to see what's what and who's who. An informed electorate and all that.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

57. Why isn't Kerry a punk for even suggesting it?

There are other candidates in the race. Many of whom who are polling higher than Mr. Kerry.

And all that screeching about how Dean was subverting the primary process with Gore's endorsement. (I'm not accusing you of having been part of that caterwauling) This reeks of the same subversion.

[WilliamPitt]

61. I see this as Kerry making the right move

He's looking to debate the frontrunner. Why shouldn't he? The ball is in Dean's court now.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

67. I understand the motivation.

I agree that it would be the smart move if it had a chance in hell of happening.

The smart counter-move by Dean is to ignore it.

Do you believe that there will be a groundswell of voters clamoring for a Dean-Kerry FP debate? Not bloody likely.

The ball is in Dean's court in Kerry's(and your) imagination only. Dean isn't even on the playing field. Kerry is hitting balls into an empty court.

[TLM]

118. The smart counter move by Dean would be to say

That he has too much respect for his fellow dems, many of whom are polling higher than Kerry, to exclude them from a debate. But if Kerry would like to use the existing debate time with al the dems to bring up these issues, Dean would be happy to explain why Kerry is wrong.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

174. That's pretty much what he said to Kerry the LAST time he

challenged Dean to a one-on-one. This will be no different.

[MR. ELECTABLE]

74. Why doesn't Dean debate Lyndon LaRouche as well?

I mean, after all, if the guy is going to start giving favors to unelectable democratic candidates....

[frustrated_lefty]

75. The right move?

Please debate me, even though I'm dead last in the polls, on one issue and one issue only because I think that's where I'm strongest? One on one debates are a good idea, I agree with that. It's impossible to justify when there are 9 candidates on the field, though. Further, restricting a debate to a single issue suggests to me Kerry doesn't feel particularly confident on domestic policy, for example.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Dean accepted the challenge. If he does, it would be against the advice of his campaign strategists.

[IndianaGreen]

76. Except that Kerry is nowhere near the front of the pack

Wes Clark is clearly in a commanding second place position in the polls, while Kerry keeps dropping in the polls rapidly approaching Nader's level of support.

This is another example of Kerry thinking that he is entitled to the nomination, and his bafflement as to why the Democratic rank-and-file haven't been mesmerized by his dazzling hair and presence.

Wes Clark has made Kerry irrelevant! Clark has Kerry beat in the "profiles in courage" department, and he also beats Kerry on the war in Iraq--hands down.

[quaker bill]

93. I see this as one of the few good moves Kerry has open to him

But a Hail-Mary is still a Hail-Mary.

If Dean were to chose to do a one on one at all, he should pick Clark or Lieberman first. Or perhaps John Edwards (if he is still in it) as the campaign heads south after Iowa and NH.

[TLM]

117. I'm surprised Kerry supporters can see anything other than Kerry's butt

considering where you folks have your nose planted.

[Demobrat]

66. How was I not a punk

when my little sister hit me and I didn't hit back? Kerry's not a threat to Dean, so why should he bother with him?

[babzilla]

105. changing america... one punk at a time

http://www.punxfordean.org/

[LizW]

71. Because it's laughable?

Be honest Will. Any front runner would be an idiot to give this debate request the time of day and you know it. Kerry's campaign is flailing desperately. Dean is ahead of Kerry in Kerry's own state, for goodness sake!

If Kerry makes some headway and takes a couple of states, including his own, AND some of the other candidates he is so arrogantly disregarding drop out, then MAYBE it would be a viable discussion. But now it's just not worth anyone's consideration.

About the only value in this challenge is that it lets Kerry's disappointed supporters vent and call Dean a chicken. Nothing wrong with venting.

[quaker bill]

90. Because John Kerry isn't all that special

He is no more serious a candidate than Wes Clark, or Dennis Kucinich, or John Edwards.

If Dean were to do a one on one with anyone, Clark or Lieberman should come first. They simply have more support.

[Rose Siding]

137. Does a boxer take every comer?

Did Ali climb in the ring with every cauliflower ear that thought he had his game on?

Kerry is at FOUR pts. Dean doesn't need him right now.

[mouse7]

139. William, are you a punk for breaking DU rules already?

A reminder for William...

"Nicknames for Democratic candiates, their supporters, or their opponents are no longer permitted anywhere on Democratic Underground.

If you wish to discuss any Democratic candidate, you are required to use that person's real name. You cannot use a nickname or a different name or add asterisks or anything else.

If you make a comment about any candidate's supporters, you are required to refer to them simply as "(Candidate Name) supporters" -- "Clark supporters," "Dean supporters," "Kerry supporters," "Kucinich supporters," etc.

If you make a comment about any candidate's opponents, you are requied to refer to them simply as "(Candidate Name) opponents" -- "Clark opponents," "Dean opponents," "Kerry opponents," "Kucinich opponents," etc.

Any messages posted after 10:00AM Saturday which violate this rule will be deleted and a warning will be added to your record.

Skinner
DU Admin"

William, in the past you have acted like people should just forget it when you blow your top and go off on a rant. That's not a reasonable expectation. With so much attention being focused on the atmosphere, then you are expected to act appropriately. A leader like yourself shouldn't allow yourself to be placed in the position of looking as if you are one of the reasons there are so many problems with people getting along. Look at how many posts picked up on your "punk" line and think about it.

You're supposed to be a role model here, William. Please act like it.

[Jerseycoa]

52. I would expect Kerry

to wipe the floor with Dean on this topic. However, what I would really like to see is a series of defined issues debates involving all candidates. The previous debates, trying to cover every last topic, resulted in no issues receiving serious attention. The problem was only partly the number of candidates. The biggest problem was no focus, so positions were never clearly defined or exposed. That said, I would actually enjoy a national security debate between Kerry and Dean, if one were to take place.

[adadem]

63. At least

Dr. Dean would have the opportunity to prepare himself for what would happen in the general election.

[TLM]

119. Yeah because debating Kerry on Iraq would be pretty much the same thing

as debating Bush on Iraq... since Kerry and Bush hold almost teh exact same position.

Pending wind direction of course.

[Fleshdancer]

79. If Dean wins the nomination,

will Kerry, and all his supposed foreign policy wisdom, help Dean on foreign policy matters?

[Renew Deal]

80. Dean won't do it, but this is good for Clark.

Dean will never agree to this. First, he doesn't have the guts. Second, even if he did, the other candidates would want in on it. Clark is most peoples second choice. The more the others attack Dean, the better for Clark if votes are pealed off. Keep on him John.

[dsc]

81. The unmittigated arrogance

This is why some people call Kerry arrogant. Just who on earth does he think he is? At least the last time he suggested this he could make a case he was in second place (so could Gephard and Lieberman) but now he is hard pressed to argue he isn't in 5th. Clark, Gephardt, and even Lieberman should be telling Kerry to drop dead.

[Renew Deal]

83. This isn't a new tactic

This sort of thing has been done for years. It's OK to challenge your opponent to a debate. What may be arrogant is not inviting the others.

[dsc]

91. well duh

that is what I said.

[paulk]

86. the arrogance here is coming from Dean supporters

who write Kerry off. Not a single vote has been cast, and any student of Presidential primaries can tell you that polls, at this point, don't mean squat.

Mark my words, this arrogance is going to bite you in the ass.

[dsc]

92. I am not writing Kerry off

but I don't think any candidates should be excluded. Evidently, Kerry figures that a ton of candidates should be. To top it off several of those candidates can make very good cases they are doing better than he is. On what planet isn't that writing Clark, Gephardt, and the rest off?

[paulk]

100. Kerry's running for himself - and Dean's the frontrunner

He can't be expected to include them - he wants to put himself forward as the legitimate national security candidate. It's politics...

But he did say "we democrats". It would be great if the other candidates picked up on this - I would like to see Kerry debate Clark, myself.

[dsc]

101. He can if he doesn't want to be an arrogant prick

Frankly I hope one of those other candidates, such as Clark, put him in his place. It is profoundly insultuing to them for Kerry to have done this.

[IndianaGreen]

98. The arrogance is Kerry's

thinking that he is entitled to the special privilege of a one-on-one debate to the exclusion of everyone else.

Kucinich would mop the floor with Kerry's hair in such a debate!

You are running for President of the United States, John Kerry, not for President of Skull & Bones!

[zulchzulu]

132. Sounds like you're a Dean cowardice apologist to me

Dean and Kerry are one and two in NH and Iowa. What makes Dean think he doesn't have the courage to debate?

It sure looks like he doesn't to me.

[IndianaGreen]

152. The only cowardice was Kerry's when he voted for PATRIOT and IWR

Kerry found it easier to swim with the Bush current than to stand for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, not to mention for multi-lateralism and international law.

Dennis Kucinich never hesitated to vote against PATRIOT and IWR.

[babzilla]

89. but, but, it would be good for our country and our party

Kerry is not offering the challenge to boost his own campaign, he is just looking out for the country and the party. As we all know, he has the courage to do what's right for America. LOL

"I hope Governor Dean will accept this offer. It’s good for our country. It’s good for our party. And if Howard Dean can’t debate national security with his fellow Democrats, how in the world can he expect to be able to stand on a stage and face George W. Bush?”

[IndianaGreen]

99. Kerry should have thought of the "good of the country"

before he voted for PATRIOT Act and the Iraq War Resolution.

What a pathetic display of political impotency by Kerry!

[babzilla]

104. agreed

if he had, to paraphrase Lott, maybe he wouldn't be having all of these problems.

[WiseMen]

85. The PARTY should be insisting on SUBSTANTIVE 1-on-1 Debates

The "debates" that have occured are a travesty of political
process and a disservice to the public. The networks don't care
about substance in those 9 person "american idol" type debate shows
we have had, but the voter are being shafted.

[dsc]

94. that I agree with

but to be blunt that isn't what Kerry called for.

[TLM]

120. In other words... Kerry is not getting enough spotlight time

Well maybe if Kerry tied focusing on his own campaign and why he is the right man for the job instead of spending every minute he has in a debate attacking Dean with bullshit, he might not need a special debate.

[quaker bill]

87. Isn't that special.

And I would bet he would like even more the appearance that the front-runner finds him the only other candidate worthy of this attention.

Like John Kerry's ideas have some special merit that Wes Clark's or John Edwards, and Dennis Kucinich's... don't.

[killbotfactory]

95. Bush doesn't know shit about national security...

Dean would mop the floor with him, if it ever came down to it.

"We're, uh... fighting the war on terror! (smirk) Saddam was an... evil man... He wanted to... develop... really bad weapons! (smirk) Uh... Hooray for freedom!"

And screw Kerry for misrepresenting Dean's positions and speech.

[mzmolly]

103. Which John Kerry?

The one who opposed the unilateral war, or the one who is for a unilateral approach post Saddam? :shrug:

[KaraokeKarlton]

106. Now this is pretty pathetic

Why does Kerry think he's so much more important than the rest of the candidates that he deserves a one on one debate with Dean or anyone else, for that matter? Talk about an ego...

:eyes:

[WiseMen]

107. IOWA is a 3-Man Contest. NH is a 2-Man contest. Did 9-Man Debate Help You

[TLM]

113. Maybe if Kerry used the existing debate time to debate issues

rather than taking cheap shots at Dean based on decade old out of context quotes... he wouldn't need to beg Dean for a one-on-one debate.


How rude though of Kerry to try this crap... he knows Dean will not put himslef in the position of baring the other dems from a debate, so Kerry will start accusing Dean of avoiding a debate with him.

Typical Kerry.

[zulchzulu]

124. Sounds like somebody is scared

[TLM]

128. Yeah... Kerry.

scared shitless of watching Dean become our next president instead of him.

[zulchzulu]

179. Kerry challenged Dean and Dean has a bad back or is it no spine?

If you want someone who is not a scaredy cat, choose Kerry.

[TLM]

112. So Kerry is back to attacking the UN to attack Dean...

“Job number one of the President of the United States is to make America safe. That’s why it’s so troubling that on the question of national security, in the past week alone Governor Dean has made a series of comments that betray a shoot-from-the-hip style and a troubling tendency to flip-flop. A candidate who treats America’s national security this way won’t be elected President of the United States – and frankly doesn’t deserve to be elected."

This from the guy who said Saddam had nukes.

“If You Don’t Believe In The U.N. ... Or You Don’t Believe Saddam Hussein Is A Threat With Nuclear Weapons, Then You Shouldn’t Vote For Me.” (Ronald Brownstein, “On Iraq, Kerry Appears Either Torn Or Shrewd,” Los Angeles Times, 1/31/03)



"On Sunday, Governor Dean said the capture of Saddam Hussein marked “a great day for the Iraqi people, the U.S., and the international community.” But the very next day, Governor Dean personally wrote a line into his prepared speech stating that “the capture of Saddam has not made America safer.”"

That’s no flip flop. The capture of Saddam was a moral victory, not a tactical one, as Saddam was not organizing the attacks by forced in Iraq... and the capture of Saddam did not address the situation in North Korea, Iran, nor the domestic issues of cargo containers or first responders.

Kerry is getting desperate if he's trying to spin that as a flip flop.



"He made the bizarre assertion that Saddam Hussein’s capture “could have taken place six months ago.” He stated that, as President he would have acted in Iraq “had the United Nations given us permission and asked us to be a part of a multilateral force” – implying that he would give nations like China, France and Russia unprecedented veto power over America’s security."

Since when is the call for having UN backing for military action unprecedented? Again we see Craven Kerry attacking the UN in order to take shots at Dean. Now just watch, in a week Kerry will be right back to saying we need UN support in Iraq.

What does Kerry have against the UN? Why is Kerry siding with Bush against the UN?


""I hope Governor Dean will accept this offer. It’s good for our country. It’s good for our party. And if Howard Dean can’t debate national security with his fellow Democrats, how in the world can he expect to be able to stand on a stage and face George W. Bush?”"

Hey asshole, by my count you've had about half a dozen debates with Dean so far in in them rather than address these issues you've chosen to take cheap shots and make attacks on Dean based on decade old out of context quotes and outright fabrications. Now you want to attack Dean for not debating his fellow dems on the issues?

Again we see the arrogance of Kerry in acting as if he somehow should get a special debate with Dean... that would hardly be fair to the other folks running. Maybe instead of trying to play a ploy about a special one on one debate Kerry should instead try using his debate time in the next scheduled debate to talk about these issues, rather than using his debate time to take cheap shots at Dean.

[Scott Lee]

146. This sick ass UN attack is not going away. Shame on you, John.

[mikehiggins]

114. How will the press respond to this? eom

[pasadenaboy]

121. Kerry should have challenged him

when Kerry was in the favorite to win the nomination. Challenging him now that he is in the middle of the pack nationally, and getting creamed in New Hampshire is just another demonstration of his desperate campaign.

If he wanted to debate, he could have gotten one when he was the front runner. He didn't want one then, why does he want one now?

[zulchzulu]

130. Never too late to prove Howard is not the one to run

If Dean is such a stud on national security issues and can prove that he's got the cahunas to back it up and debate Kerry, then he might get my respect.

But it sounds like he's just as much of a wuss as the guy in the White House now.

Can Dean prove he's not a coward?

[IndianaGreen]

156. Kerry shot his wad on national security when he voted for IWR

Kerry chose to ignore millions of people in this country and around the world that opposed an unprovoked US attack on Iraq.

Why Kerry when we have Clark?

[drfemoe]

144. No .. actually

Kerry did challenge Dean to a 'private debate' early on. Dean declined, saying there would be plenty of debates. I think he would still hold that position. This is just more Kerry narcissism, believing he is entitled to special attention.

Kerry has demonstrated so far that he is debating Dean one-on-one.

[babzilla]

122. net ball

8 hours later and the Dean Team still hasn't commented on Kerry's "challenge".

X-treme Kerry still has time to work on his serve, though he might choose to stick with finger-in-the-windsurfing.

on edit:

[zulchzulu]

123. B-R-I-N-G I-T O-N-!-!-!

I would love to see Kerry debate Dean one on one.

Dean would have to be carried off in a stretcher. Not from anything physical mind you. It would just be too much for Dean to take.

It's time to really bring it on.

The voter should demand to see this. If Dean wants to try to get another deferral, well we know why.

He may have a bad back, but I think he has a shady background.

[mzmolly]

125. He'd have to be carried off on a stretcher because he'd fall asleep

like the rest of us from listening to Kerry. :boring:

[zulchzulu]

127. Dean knows jacksquat about national security

If he's so good, it should be a no-brainer for him.

Yeah....right....

Something tells me Dean people don't want to see precious little Howard up against somebody who would clean his clock.

Is Howard still a coward? Prove he isn't.

[babzilla]

140. try this

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A16656-2003Dec19?language=printer

[mzmolly]

143. Is O'Kerry still full of shit?

Prove he isn't.

[Scott Lee]

148. And Kerry's expertise about national security comes from....?

A Cracker Jack Box?

His rightwing UN hating friends?

His being a Vietnam vet?

Sitting in briefings about Iraq that are so bogus my 14 year old niece wouldn't believe that poop dished up at them (odd that John was taken in though)?

Are you trying to build O'Kerry up or bring him down with your arguments? You're accomplishing the latter.

[zulchzulu]

167. If I told you, you'd curl up into fetal position

You like Dean even if he shat on your salad, so mentioning Kerry's years of experience in Foreign Relations and working in national security positions would fall on your deaf ears.

[retyred]

133. dean's response should be quite interesting

as well as quite telling. One on one is really the best way of getting to the meat of the matter in a given time restraint.


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[maddezmom]

134. has Dean responded yet? n/t

[WiseMen]

138. Dean Will Only Agree if the DNC puts pressure on him to Debate

[stickdog]

187. Why would Dean agree?

Would Kerry agree to debate me?

[LiberalBushFan]

151. how in the hell is this challenge arrogant?

And how is it exclusive of other candidates? John Kerry offers to debate Howard Dean, Howard Dean either accepts, and the consensual event takes place, or backs away. No other candidate has made such a one-on-one challenge, so no one's being excluded. We all know one-on-one or at most 3-person debates are sorely needed for us to have any idea who's ready to go against Bush, and who's most sure about their own principles. C'mon Dean supporters, I'm not a Kerry supporter either but even I can see this. This debate would bring major attention to both Dean and Kerry; one-on-one's draw large audiences. Therefore I can't see why a Dean supporter would not want this debate to happen unless they thought it would somehow negatively impact Dean.

[TLM]

162. Kerry is polling realy badly...

yet thinks that he should get special exclusive access to a one on one debate with the front runner?

That is arrogant because it excludes all the other dems running.

[zulchzulu]

181. Kerry running close second in Iowa and second in New Hampshire

Bawk bawk... Howard...is he still a coward?

[Cheswick2.0]

155. so Kerry is an even bigger asshole than I thought

he's seems to be endorsing Bush. What a moran.

[zulchzulu]

168. Dean is a much bigger weenie than I thought

Kerry is number 2 in Iowa, number 2 in New Hampshire...

Why are the Dean fans so scared of a debate? I detect.....

FEAR!

[arewethereyet]

159. I'd pay per view this one

of course Dean will never consider it, he knows the outcome and Trippi would never allow it.

It would require a belief in his convictions (some of you folks are ignoring his documented late 2002 flip flop on this war opposition).

It would do nothing to help him and everything to hurt him. Kerry is a skilled polititian and statesman and would get Dean's blood pressure up enough that he ceases to think about his words. Tantrums ? No, technically not but I've often enough seen him lose his composure and therefore his effectiveness.

As this is the defining difference between the two and n large part the crux of Dean's political stance, he should not be afraid to debate it with Kerry.

But, alas, it'll never happen.

[TLM]

163. It won;t happen because it is a lose lose ploy by Kerry...

Even if Dean beat Kerry, which he easily would... it would still be face time for Kerry with the frontrunner and that means media attention and a boost to his sinking campaign. Dean would be giving Kerry an advantage over the other guys running and Dean won't do that.

"It would require a belief in his convictions (some of you folks are ignoring his documented late 2002 flip flop on this war opposition)."

As ususal when this BS claim is repeated, no link or full quote is provided, because it doesn't exist. All the dean bahsers have is half a sentence they pull out of context. They claim Dean supported the war, but when you look at the quote in context you see that in the very next line Dean says the case for war has not been made or that his position is prefaced on there being an imminent threat and there isn’t one.


So no, it is in fact Dena bashers doign the ignoring... they ignore the parts of Dean's statements that prove their attacks are misleading and baseless.

[arewethereyet]

175. the first step is acceptance...

you can deny it all you want but it doesn't make it untrue.

But you are correct that it would be a lose situation for Dean.

Oh as to him out speaking Kerry, don't forget that he's been in the loser's camp of every debate aired.

[flpoljunkie]

166. Great idea! A pay-per-view DNC fundraiser for people powered convention

in Boston. Wouldn't that be a hoot! Probably not enough time for it to become a reality--but a great idea, nevertheless.

[arewethereyet]

176. nice touch !

I would suggest cage match but its probably a little too undignified.

But I would think that Howie would love it right up until he remembered (once in the cage, naked and with no way out) that Kerry IS a war hero and he checked out of service with his "bad back".

[Raya]

171. Sad that we are being railroaded into nomination without Real Debate

I didn't find is single one of the 9-person debate shows in
any way meaningfull. It is so stupid, yet like idiots we
accept it.

[Nazgul35]

173. This is the second lame attempt by Kerry

to do this...and it will work just as well as it did last time...boy this campaign sucks, now they are recirculating crappy campaign strategy...

It was an insult to other candidates the last time....and it is an insult now...perhaps even more so as Kerry has sunk far below in most state polls and if anyone can make this claim on the front runner's time....it is Clark....

Hell, even Lieberman has a better claim to debate dean one on one than Kerry does....

nomination for worst run campaign in dem history....

[zulchzulu]

177. Campaign of ideas or meaningless poll numbers?

Kerry is closing in on Dean in Iowa and New Hampshire. Kerry is 4 points behind Dean in Iowa and the only other candidate near him in New Hampshire. A debate in either New Hampshire or Iowa should be seen as a welcome opportunity for Dean to prove himself as a viable candidate.

Apparently by your own admission, you don't have faith in Dean to be able to debate Kerry on national security issues.

You're proving what the rest of us already know; Dean is a weak candidate with no chance of beating Bush.

If Dean would be so strong against Bush in debates (as many Dean fans seem to gloat about), why are Dean fans such cowards like Howard when it comes to debating Kerry?

I hope Kerry keeps hammering Dean on this issue.

[WiseMen]

178. If Dean accepts the challenge, I will be first to give him credit.

[sujan]

182. Kerry DEMANDS SATISFACTION

lol

[stickdog]

184. In other news, Kerry ignores Garth's request for a nine-part series of

debates on Community Access.

[stickdog]

186. Kerry supporters, how did Hussein's capture make Americans safer?

And why is Kerry lying to prop up Bush?