Brits call Anti-Dean movement 'Hateful' and 'Ugly'

[Patriot_Spear]

Wow. Once again it takes a free foreign press to see our nation with clarity.

'Hateful' allegations mar Dean's bid for the White House

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=473959

"Attempts to smear Howard Dean and thwart what looks increasingly like an unstoppable bid for the Democratic presidential nomination grew uglier yesterday. An incendiary television advert highlighted his lack of national security experience and an internet gossip-monger hinted at possible campaign finance irregularities."

[onehandle]

1. Movement?

What movement? No one in the article calls it a "movement".

There is no movement.

[Loonman]

3. bowel movement?

(rimshot)

D'oh!

[Patriot_Spear]

6. Really?

Marcus Mrowka....Moderator of Stop Dean 2004 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stopdean2004/join


Listed and contributing member of the GWU Students for Clark
http://www.gwforclark.com/downloads.html

[Uzybone]

8. Your in Sully territory

I know most Dean supporters are not as dishonest. Wow a yahoo group with barely 100 memebers is your evidence of a movement??? There are probably gingerbread baking groups that have 5 times that number of members.

Thats a laughable example of a "movement".

[Name removed]

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[JVS]

55. Hey folks, you only get 30 of those!

[KittyWampus]

29. MARCUS MARCUS MARCUS MARCUS MARCUS

[Patriot_Spear]

32. A Clark Supporter.

He's one of yours.

[mzmolly]

18. Have you seen the commercials to 'Stop Dean' from Democrats

I'd say "MOVEMENT" is a fair characterization....

according to dictionary.com ;) A movement is:

A series of actions and events taking place over a period of time and working to foster a principle or policy...

An organized effort by supporters of a common goal...

[dsc]

48. The claim was no one calls it a movement

Clearly someone is.

[onehandle]

9. A yahoo group...

...and a handful of idiot Democrats running an ad is hardly a movement.

[Patriot_Spear]

12. You need to bone up on your facts...

Progressive values apparently got an average of $50,000 dollars from each Gephardt Union to make this ad. $50,000.

Now you tell me of that's 'fringe' money.

[onehandle]

24. A movement suggests a large number...

...of organized people with a common goal. This was not the decision of the Union, but a handful of decision makers.

I could come up with 50 grand for an anti Sharpton ad. Does that make me an "Anti-Sharpton Movement"?

[Patriot_Spear]

26. $50,000 a pop IS a big number... Bush* fundraiser big.

But could you get 4 or 5 organizations to come up with $50,000 grand each?

Symantics aside- it's a real event.

[onehandle]

31. I said people, not money...

Money is smaller than people. 50k is nothing in politics.

There is no movement.

[Patriot_Spear]

35. Are you deliberately parsing the subject?

You keep focusing on the individual parts the the exclusion of the whole. Is this a tactic of some sort?


That's like saying a snake isn't dangerous because the tail has no fangs. You have to look at things in the sum of their parts.

[lewiston]

51. I wish it were only the Yahoo bunch...

[TexasPatriot]

41. marcus marcus marcus

one dumbass does not a 'movement' make

maybe you dont remember when Clark announced and they had their own internet people who left Clark's community for another because their ego's were bruised. If Marcus left the Dean camp for the LaRouche camp and started a Stop Dean movement - you'd be laughing about it...

stop trying to turn the actions of one bonehead into some sort of evidence of a grand clark conspiracy. I have issues with Dean as a candidate - i express them - i try to make my case - and i leave it at that. That doesnt make me a republican operative, a member of the trilateral commission, or a bad democrat.

Speaking of one dumbass and a movement, seeing as I was the person responsible for creating the STOPMARCUS2004 group on Yahoo - I guess that makes ME, as a Clark Supporter, somehow a plant for the Dean Campaign?! or maybe, just maybe, i think this sort of crap is stupid and makes us all look bad, and that Marcus' approach helps only one person - George Bush. Of course, i'm just one dumbass - and Marcus obviously doesnt agree with me. Fine. Welcome to democracy.

[AWD]

13. Amazing....

...rather than denounce the awful attacks on Dems, you'd rather debate the semantics of the word "movement"??

Pathetic.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. attacks on Dems (plural)? Dean does not represent all Dems

not yet anyway.

[Patriot_Spear]

20. Any Dem- I'd be angry at any Dem who attacked another in this way.

Any candidate.

[KittyWampus]

33. Where Were You On The Threads Claiming Clark Was "Tight" W/ Kissinger?

marcus marcus marcus marcus

[dsc]

49. I for one

have posted in several threads to defend Clark against idiotic charges. I have done so often.

[dsc]

50. that's because

you give a damn if Bush is ousted. Some here obviously hate Dean more than they hate Bush.

[onehandle]

27. We discuss the GOP and Faux's semantics constantly.

I'm just saying that we need to be careful how we label things.

Think of how the Rove machine blows things out of proportion. Are we no better than them? I think so.

[Patriot_Spear]

28. Look at the definition Molly posted...

I'd say this pretty clearly fits the description.

according to dictionary.com A movement is:

A series of actions and events taking place over a period of time and working to foster a principle or policy...

An organized effort by supporters of a common goal...

[onehandle]

37. Yes, that's the definition...

But most folks vision of a movement is a Lot of people.

There is not a lot of people behind this.

Call it an attack, fine. It's not a movement.

[Patriot_Spear]

38. I understand and to some extent agree with your view...

What would you call it then?

[onehandle]

43. Attacks

And for the record, stupid attacks. Rove is loving this and I am tired of infighting.

[LuminousX]

47. And thus we see the core problem

It is more important to be 'right' to have backed 'the winner' than to look at the situation objectively.

[cthrumatrix]

2. they see the Rovian tricks,....anything not face Dean

[Sequoia]

4. What!? Lack of National Security experience!!!?

Ha, ha, considering Chimp's national experience I have to laugh at that one. Smearing Dean only makes Dems look like jerks. We will only end up shooting ourselves in the foot.

[bitchkitty]

5. I love this line -

The new attacks on the front-runner were murky in origin and had no effect on the soaring morale of the candidate as he finished a 48-hour swing through California, with Democratic office-holders, showbusiness entertainers and grassroots supporters falling at his feet like teenagers in love.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

7. falling at his feet like teenagers in love?

hardly a compliment. Brits love to make Americans look like idiots. And it's not hard to do.

[BiggJawn]

11. No, since we help them so much.

Brits making Murkans look stupid is like TinMan shooting birds in a cage. Easy.

[Hep]

14. More inability to recognize metaphor comes from Dean opposition

But then, we were already well aware of the anti Deaners' inability to grasp literary devices. Why they need to keep demonstrating it will live on as a mystery.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. and the subtlety of British wit escapes another American

not unusual.

[Hep]

21. I'm all about it

But tell yourself whatever you have to. You've never had anyone fall at your feet like a teenager in love, I suspect.

[mzmolly]

23. Teenagers in love with Dean...

I like it! There's a new idea for a meet up :toast:

[TLM]

36. I was in the audience at the Hose of Blues even...

The women in the crowd love Dean... I'm telling you sooner or later panties will come flying up on stage.

[evil_orange_cat]

30. Attacks on Dean help the repukes...

sorry, they do...

[NewYorkerfromMass]

34. that's speculation

sorry, it is.

[Goldmund]

39. A speculation?

It's absolutely not a speculation. It depends what you mean by "attacks" -- specific policy disagreements are not only acceptable but constructive. But "if you elect Dean the boogie-man Osama will come and eat your children" is taken directly from Rove's mouth. I'll bet you a virtual drink that this very ad will be replayed by the Bushgang in the GE, subtitled "Even Democrats agree with this.".

And for the purposes of full disclosure, I'm not a Dean supporter -- I'm still undecided. I'm far to the left of any of the candidates, and frankly voting for any of them will require a little bit of nose-pinching. But I'll vote for Oprah if it'll help get this gang of criminals out of the WH.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

40. Sure. If the candidate has substance to counter an attack

then the attack cannot succeed.

[Goldmund]

42. Oh aren't we just idealistic?

If that were the case, there wouldn't be a single Republican elected to any office.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

44. Oh. So the strategy is "DON'T bring it on"?

yeah. that'll work.

[Goldmund]

46. "Bring it on"

is something you say to your enemy, and not your opponent. The two are fundamentaly different. There should only be opponents within a political party, not enemies -- otherwise the party ceases to function as a singular force. Now, I do think that it's pretty unfortunate that we have only a 2-party system, but we do, and that means that in order to succesfully confront one of the parties, the other has to be a strong enough counterweight. I'd be much happier not being in the same party as, say, Lieberman, but what that would in practice mean is that I would be doomed to being ruled by republicans for the rest of my life.

[Bucky]

45. On int'l issues its good to hear from Brits. But do they GET our politics?

I admit the Dean-Osama add sounds over the top, but it's soft compared to anything the Bushies are going to throw at him. So this is balderdash (excuse the French, mods). Politics is rough, but not as rough as the actual suffering of people if we elect the wrong president.

[T_i_B]

52. I posted this article in LBN yesterday

It is very much pro-Dean I found, but then again adverts such as the one described deserve all they get IMHO.

For what it's worth, the candidate I liked the look of the most was graham, Dean looks great, Kerry looks OK, I don't know enough about Clark to have that much of an opinion on the guy and as such I am undecided.

I have been invited to the London Dean meetup before though!

[Phelan]

53. British press has far fewer freedoms than the US press...thats a fact

[DFLforever]

54. This is a good post

I appreciate the detached view of the British media on the heinous 'Osama is going to get you via Dean' ad and on the Stop Dean "movement", although that term may be adding some undeserved value to what could turn out to be just a nasty little conspiracy of threatened insider Dems and their candidates fighting to keep control of the crumbling party apparatus.

edit: typo

[Patriot_Spear]

56. I thought so.

It started off a little rough.