Clear-eyed view inside from apolitical friends who watched

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

I talked about seven people into watching who don't normally keep up with this stuff. I know I'm biased and I wanted some clear-eyed (if less informed) views.

They all agreed: Edwards won it, though it wasn't the total ass-kicking that Kerry gave to bush last week. One of them said Kerry and bush were such a mismatch if it were a sporting event, it would have been STOPPED and in this one, they were more evenly matched, but they still felt Edwards came out ahead (they are unaffiliated with any party).

For most of them, it was the first time they've heard EITHER man for more than a sound bite. Their MAIN complaint about Cheney? He never smiled, he mumbled horribly (they complained they kept having to turn the volume up when he was speaking) and he seemed negative and "dead." One woman described him as "a cold fish."

Both the men and women liked Edwards. They said he came off as warm and personable and all four of the women in my seven person focus group apparently want to "do" him. Sorry, but that's what they said. They were joking. Sort of. They all said they liked that he smiled and he spoke up and seemed enthusiastic.

The one thing that stuck with them at the end?

Cheney voted against MLK Day, funding for Head Start and funding for Meals on Wheels?

Their reaction was a big WHAT THE F*CK??? WHY would he DO that?

Four of them (two men, two women) reported to me they have decided to vote for Kerry (I talked them into registering last week). The other three said they are going to watch the next two presidential debates before deciding (they watched on Thursday too) but they are leaning Kerry IF they bother to vote (I told you, they are VERY apolitical).

Last word from them: Edwards--sunny, happy, positive, upbeat, strong.

Cheney--glum, mumbly, negative, "sort of scowly at times," and INCREDIBLY BORING.

So there you go, my seven person focus group.

(They don't really get into the issues much, my seven. That's why there weren't many comments on that, beyond the Cheney voting record, which disturbed them.)

[leftofthedial]

1. that's cool!

good job

[soothsayer]

2. Cool! thanks for the report

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

4. No problem

kick for some truth from the ill-informed and those who hardly bother to vote!

[donco6]

3. I totally agree.

We've all seen the "Likeability" factor at work - as much as we hate it as an indicator of appropriate leadership. Cheney stunk is this department. Very "wonky" in his speaking, which turns people off. You have to be simple - convert points to stories like Edwards did. Cheney had substantive answers (or, at least they SOUNDED substantive), so in that respect he's far overshadowing his boss, which is another problem for the Repugs altogether. But the message was delivered terribly poorly.

[Kusala]

5. + -

I said the same thing earlier in a thread. It was positivity vs. negativity. The negativitiy plays well for people that thrive in that kind of outlook.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

9. Yep

and I think my friends did very well at picking up on that, even though they don't keep up with the news at all!

[LisaL]

28. Yep.

Edwards is charming, and likable.
Cheney-well, he is not.
I mean, Cheney is definitely not as dumb as Bush, but so what?
Who in the world would prefer to have a beer with Cheney?
LOL.

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

54. LOL I think if

I had a bully problem then that's where I'd call in Cheney. :bounce:

[DeepModem Mom]

6. I'm not surprised -- thanks for a welcome report!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

7. You're very welcome!

Kick for the gloomies!! Edwards WON this, guys!

Hey I know of MORE people who are now voting KErry because of tonight.

[LibertyorDeath]

8. That's all I need to know. Fucken A

Thank You

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

12. You're very welcome

if anyone is interested in how I got my seven person group, I started "adopting" them about a year ago and they all gamely agreed to be part of my "political experiment" and have been VERY good sports about it. Plus I feed them a lot of candy.

Five were here in person, two were on a conference call with me the whole time.

[LibertyorDeath]

29. candy of course :)

Great experiment are you doing the same for Fridays debate ?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

35. Oh yes we had standing dates

for the DNC, the RNC and all the debates! They are actually quite enjoying it now. Politics has a STEEP learning curve, but they are learning more and more all the time.

[Tangledog]

40. How did the conventions go over?

I'm still saddened that those purple heart bandages didn't have the backlash effect I was hoping for. Did your focus group/proteges have any especially strong reactions to the conventions one way or another?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

41. Huh, well MY focus group HATED the band-aids

mostly at first because it literally made me cry out of anger (my husband has two and my father in law has three from Vietnam) and then we got to talking about it and they all agreed it waas horribly nasty.

But the DNC? They loved it. You know what's funny? Three of them were MOST impressed by the fact that The Black-Eyed Peas performed in it! ROFL! We were dancing in my living room that night!

They LOVED Obama's speech, but who didn't? They loved Carter's speech and they thought Kerry's speech rocked.

One guy said something interesting a few days later: he said the pundits were making him question his initial reaction to the Kerry "I served in Vietnam" part of the speech--initially he thought it was GREAT but after a few days of listening to the pundits, he started to buy their hype then realized that HIS original reaction was good, so he followed my advice and turned off the pundits. Went back to the Sci-Fi channel!

[CitySky]

44. You, madam (or sir),

rock. Way to wake the dead.

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

56. Free candy

would get anybody to do anything. ;) Well, anything like that I think.
What do you do with the group? If you can share of course.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

57. Well I either work with or live on the same street as all of them

and I learned, through separate conversations about a year ago, that they were all pretty apathetic and ill-informed and none of them had ever voted or planned on it.

So I asked them if they would be up for a bit of tutoring. In the interest of being more well-rounded plus I played up this being one of the biggest elections of their lifetime thus far (they are in their 30s all of them).

Four gamely agreed, three I had to twist their arm and call in favors owed.

The four I work with, I started weekly, hour-long "tutorials" with. I was intentionally as un-partisan as I could be. We talked about media sources that were somewhat balanced (you really can't get totally balanced), we talked about the basics of voting, electoral college, the two parties (we explored the parties' platforms) etc.

Like I said elsewhere, a couple of them didn't even know who the VP was this time last year.

I actually had 10 in the beginning but three have dropped out.

They are much more well-informed now, but still don't really keep up with the issues.

[grasswire]

62. what a great idea

Too bad someone in the campaign didn't think of neighborhood "schools" and start a movement all over the country.

[sonicx]

10. plain and simple. Edwards is real. Cheney is fake. people can see it. nt

[crispini]

11. good report, thanks.

[osaMABUSh]

13. Did any of the men want to "do" JE?

That could be important for the GL vote. I had to ask. Just kidding.

Nice little focus group. I'm glad to hear that. I essentially called it a draw with slight edge to Edwards. We got spolied after the Kerry - Bush mismatch, I found it much harder to choose a clear winner. Since I've seen both so many times, their personalities were expected and not factored into my analysis.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

19. YEs we were VERY spoileed by Thursday

what I liked about my group was they don't have any particular emotional investment either way (most didn't even know who the current VP was when I started "teaching" them last year this time) so they weren't nervous about it, hyped up or anything. It was just "oh yeah she's making us watch this thing" though a few copped to being a bit more interested in "this stuff" when they were over here tonight.

[PSU84]

14. They are not alone!

Cheney has all the appeal of an undertaker with bad case of indigestion.

[delete_bush]

15. So the real question becomes,

for the undecided, uninformed woman, who would you rather fuck. Whatever gets out the vote, I guess.

[merh]

16. This is a great post. Thank you so much. I love to hear

what the apolitical and the average citizens think!

Thanks for conducting your own focus group!

[high density]

17. "WHAT THE F*CK??? WHY would he DO that?"

LOL, thank you for your post. I think evidence like this, even if anecdotal, is much more valuable than what Tweety or Andrea Mitchell (R) thought.

[paulk]

18. Edwards was brilliant in bringing up Cheney's votes

Most people aren't aware of Cheney's past - the media have managed to portray him as the wise old head - the steady hand that will help keep Bush on the path. In fact, Cheney is now and has always been an extreme right wing idealogue. His voting record in the House was to the right of Newt Gingrich's.

I'm glad to hear that information had an impact with your friends.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

21. Well to be quite honest

it was pretty brilliant on Edwards' part. Why?

REGULAR, kinda ill-informed on the issues people like my friends DO know what MLK Day is, they DO know what Head Start is (two of their kids were in it) and they DO know what Meals on Wheels is.

It's not wonk talk. It's regular stuff regular people know about.

And to hear that he voted AGAINST those things just nearly knocked all seven of them to the floor.

One woman even said "that's just evil."

[doni_georgia]

20. Awesome!

These are the people who will make the difference in this race.

[incapsulated]

22. I think Edwards did very well with this crowd

The punditwhores are clueless. I think he made a great contrast to Mr. Evil, and beat him soundly. He definately helped Kerry tonight. The polls will bear out the truth of this little debate, in Edwards favor.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

25. These seven are EXACTLY why I don't listen to the talking

heads on TV. They try to tell us how to think and what to feel and I ain't having any of it.

By the way, you reminded me of something: one of the ground rules for this informal focus group was we couldn't listen to or read any pundits 48 hours before the debates OR right after, when they were giving me their assessement.

One of the guys just got home, called me and said he is feeling even better about Kerry-Edwards NOW than he did five minutes AFTER the debate. Edwards is GELLING with these people.

[incapsulated]

32. Good deal!

:)

[cthrumatrix]

23. sounds like more good news.... it's all about "undecided's

[girl gone mad]

24. I noted some of the exact same..

reactions from people I spoke with on an apolitical message board.

The mlk day/Mandela/Meals on Wheels point was a score for Edwards, as was Cheney being out of touch on the AIDS question.

They noted Cheney was out of touch on the economy, and he didn't answer the questions.

It wasn't a KO, but Edwards clearly did better.

[Stew225]

26. nice repot. thanks. eom

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

27. You are welcome

kick for some apolitical's truth.

[The Magistrate]

30. Excellent Work, Ma'am!

A very good bit of organizing and observation.

The Congressional record of the wretch is indeed a shameful thing, that is and ought to be repugnant to every real American!

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[justjones]

31. Not to mention Cheney voted against the resolution to free Mandela....

You have to be one heartless soul to believe Mandela wasn't a political prisoner and shouldn't have been freed. THAT stuck with me in the end although I hadn't heard of his votes against MLK Day, Head Start, and Meals on Wheels funding either.

What a rank, vile, nasty human being, if you can call him that.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

36. Um, my "focus group" of seven previously unvoting Americans

didn't know who Nelson Mandela was, so that really didn't stand out for them!

[LiberalFighter]

33. The difference between this debate and cheney/lieberman 2000...

The public knows more about cheney now then they did in 2000. Not good for cheney.

[phish420]

34. Great post! Thanks..Kicked for the dis-heartened to read

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

37. And kicking the kick!

Disheartened? Read about what Linda, Kim, Elizabeth (I call her Liza!), Rob, Richard, Willie, and Melissa in Dallas, Texas had to say about the debate.

They are all adults (30s) and have never voted before this year. They are all now registered and four of them are now voting for Kerry.

The other three are leaning Kerry.

[lakemonster11]

38. I loved Edwards' "yes ma'am"s

Such a southern gentleman!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

39. Let me add another point here

or clarify it:

my friends didn't see this debate through the filter of the details of the issues.

They aren't really all too familiar with the issues, sadly. Their understanding of the major issues in this country are little soundbites and bits. Not much.

They looked at each guy and the AFFECTIVE response they had to them.

And damn Edwards kicked ass in their eyes. This would explain the high numbers of people voting in online polls that Edwards won.

We watched it with MUCH more critical eyes and most of us know more ins and outs of the issues.

[Spiffarino]

42. Excellent

It's great to see how true undecideds react. The after-debate polls taken by the networks are generally stacked against Dems. This is the case with ABC, who had 5% more Reps in the group than Dems.

I would love to see the major media do what you did...find as many politically apathetic people as possible (it shouldn't be hard) and have them sit and watch, then get their reactions.

On the other hand, are you sure it wasn't because you plied them with fine food and drink for 90 minutes? ;)

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

43. Hey no food and drink

just some Tootsie Rolls and my sparkling company!

This group couldn't possibly have been more apolitical when I first put them together. Three came in kicking and screaming to my experiment but they owed me big favors.

Kick for TRULY undecided observations!!!!

[GaryL]

45. Thanks.

This is EXACTLY as I would expect a generally unbiased group to see the debate. There are a number of people on DU who would piss and moan if they hit the weekly lotto. Gad!

[CitySky]

46. thanks for the report!

:kick:

[henslee]

47. Moonbeam, insightful post. JE bringing up MLK was damning.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

50. Yeah

demographics on my group:

four women, three men, all in thirties, two are single and childless, the other five have kids, of the parents, one is divorced.

They are six white and one Hispanic.

They are suburbanites in the Dallas area. Just regular schmos like me.

[Starlight]

48. These men are only 12 years apart in age!

51 & 63. Can you believe it? Dicky looks old enough to be John's grandfather. :evilgrin:

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

49. When I heard Edwards

say Cheney voted against MLK day I was shocked!!! Did he REALLY do that? :wtf: I also think Edwards' charm and sweet personality helps him big-time with leveling on people. And he is good looking. His family is cute.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

51. We really have to slam Cheney's voting record

it is REALLY disturbing based on the reaction I saw in them.

When they left they were STILL muttering about it.

[Hello_Kitty]

52. I knew it!!

JE was speaking to the people! He was brilliant!

[eridani]

53. Just nudging them in the direction of BEING more political is great!

Part of the problem with Dems is that we are fighting to preserve the public sphere, and so many people just don't give a damn about it. The Rethugs want to eliminate it.

That you have singlehandedly made 7 more people more interested in public affairs means more than the debate itself. If every one of us did that, we'd have all 3 branches of government before long. Unfortunately, most people on the board are like me--I can't even think of 7 apolitical friends to save my life, I'm such a wonk.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

58. That's a great thing you're doing...

with your apolitical friends!

I learned of Cheney's Mandela vote this evening while listening to Amy Goodman/Democracy Now. I was happy to hear Edwards mention it. I wish he had also mentioned Cheney's vote against the "cop-killer" bullet ban:

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Dick_Cheney_Gun_Control.htm

Considering the grip the NRA has on this country, bringing up gun control during a debate would be the kiss of death for a candidate, but how could any rational person make a case for those bullets?

It would have been good too for Edwards to have seized on this: “U.S. Businesses File Four Times More Lawsuits Than Private Citizens And Are Sanctioned Much More Often for Frivolous Suits” (thread from earlier today). That’s all he needed to say! Or maybe that the reason Shrub hates lawyers so much is that he was too stupid to get into the University of Texas law school!

While it wasn't a slam dunk, Edwards held his own. I really hoped he would go for the jugular, but in that Southern gentleman kinda way. Perhaps killing with kindness does work better—-he certainly silenced Uncle Dick with the kind words about Mary Cheney.

Hannity on FOX has seized on Edwards' "lights flickering" remark. Gawd he makes me ill.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

61. What lights flickering remark?

I must have missed that.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

64. Edwards said...

"Here‘s the truth: I have grown up in the bright light of America.
But that light is flickering today."

The blowhards at Faux obviously disagree. What is it with all this light imagery? Bush 41 and the "1,000 points of light"?! (The Move On bumper sticker is classic: "1,000 Points of Light and One Dim Bulb".)

It's late and I'm getting punchy, but I had to laugh at your "do" remark. He's way too Ken Doll for me, but if the "do factor" gets a few (or few thousand!) women (or men!) to the polls, so be it!

[newyawker99]

79. Hi TWriterD!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

60. Oh I bet you know them!

There are WAY more people who don't vote than who do in this country. It wasn't hard at all to find seven (originally ten), in fact it was depressingly easy.

But maybe I run with a non-wonkish crowd! LOL!

Thanks!

[progressivebydesign]

55. Thanks! I think your friends have EXCELLENT judgement!

I actually agreed with ALL they said. Cheney was slouchy, cold, negative, and really.. really.. boring! Because Bush came off as such an asshole last week, it was up to Cheney to be more cordial, I thought.. but he was even uglier than Bush.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

59. But did you notice my friends didn't have anything to say on the issues?

It's because they are ill-informed on the issues (despite all my best attempts for the last year!!!). They only looked at how each guy made them feel, how they presented themselves.

I honestly think most "normal" Americans who watched do the same. WE are policy wonks. Most people aren't.

That's why I am even more convinced Edwards really was a big winner in this debate.

[The Magistrate]

63. A Sound Point, Ma'am

It one that people actively political need to remember, when trying to influence those who are less involved. Issues are highly over-rated. Elections have much more in common with making side-bets on an impending bar fight than many like to admit....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[eridani]

65. Kick! This is important! n/t

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

66. Thanks for the kick!

Re-kicking for the late night people!

[babylonsister]

67. Where do you meet these people?

Not interested, uninformed?? I recognize your name, MS, but how'd ya pull this off? BTW, rock on!!!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

68. I work with four of them

and the other three live on my street. There were originally three others I live near, but they dropped out about six months ago, completely uninterested in politics or this election. The other seven hung in there.

[moggie]

69. How can anyone be that ill-informed?

That's great work you're doing with your group, but I have a hard time understanding how anyone can be quite that ill-informed. I know politics can seem boring or distant to many people, but, man... not knowing who Mandela is? Who the VP is?? You'd have to live your life with your fingers in your ears, surely?

[newyawker99]

81. Hi moggie!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[deckerd]

70. This is great news... I was worried how Edwards would play after seeing it

Of course, Cheney came off like a cross between Dr. Strangelove and
Mr. Grinch, but in this era of terra, that can be spun as a positive.

Based on the audience reaction to Dennis Miller on the late night,
I could easily see Peter Sellers running for president of the US today
and winning.

[alphafemale]

71. Sadly? Voting against MLK holiday is a plus for racist FReeper farkwads.

I really hate those people.

[DeepModem Mom]

72. kick

[DeepModem Mom]

73. kick

[NoSunWithoutShadow]

74. Good for you. And Kick!

[TexasSissy]

75. Wow. That was pretty much my impression, too!

I intentionally gave my impression some thought before watching TV pundits or going to the internet.

I decided that both did well, but that Edwards eeked out a win by a nose. In fact, I probably thought better of Cheney than your apolitical friends did.

But that they thought he won.....YAAAAAY!

[TexasSissy]

76. kick nt

[sonias]

77. Wonderful experiment Moonbeam_Starlight

Great report. I loved hearing this. We win when people give politics a chance. I hope they stay involved in the future and continue to, or vote for the first time even.

Thank you for taking the time to do this. Sounds like fun. You should publish your experiment. I bet you could get at least DU front page coverage.

Ask your focus group to check back with us on Nov 3rd and see if they think they made a difference.

Thanks again for the report and your effort.

Sonia

[Bongo Prophet]

78. I nominate you for a 1000 pts of light people-science medal!

You are a gem of a dem!

This could be a model for 2006/08 and longer term as well, adopting small groups and bringing them into the process by whatever personal means the mentor determines to be most effective. Especially for friendly people types, as you must be. (I'm more a friendly but eccentric hermit type, so would be less effective)

So, both as research and for the votes, a very valuable process.
Tell them you have fans and we are proud of them for being up for this and following through. It makes them better and will make them FEEL better too....

Freeps would see this as a scandal--dems buying votes with candy! Outrageous!
We must start inviting people to gun clubs and boycotting France! To arms! LOL/

:toast:

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

82. ROFL!

Actually I got the idea back when I was a Dean supporter and the Dean campaign had this grassroots school thing online, how to be a grassroots activist. It was ALL about bringing people into the process.

And like I said these are all people I already knew well.

We do have standing dates for the last two debates and all seven are registered and have promised to vote, even if I have to haul their asses there. Actually they have agreed to vote on Oct. 18, the first day of early voting here. Four have decided on KErry for sure, the other three are leaning Kerry, but just can't quite get off the pot, if you know what I mean.

I am patient with them! ;-)

Thanks everyone. I really didn't think it was that big of a deal....I've been doing this for quite a while but never talked about it here until last night because I thought some DUers needed an apolitical person's view in light of the "damn, Cheney won" posts.

I will give updates on the next two debates.

[4_Legs_Good]

80. Nice!

Good work, and thanks for the update...

david