9/14 RALLY: CIVILITY YES, GLOCK RAFFLE NO

[Kali]

disclaimer: this is a forwarded e-mail from a local Tucson activist I have known for years, I did not put it together


Please sign the petition of you didn't, and attend the rally
this Wednesday, September 14, 4 - 5:30pm,
at Speedway and Campbell in Tucson.
Please forward to all who care ~ if you're on Twitter,
please tweet this, post it to Facebook pages, etc.

We really need a good turnout, especially if the media cover it.
(They usually arrive and leave early to make the 5 &/or 6pm news.)

Regardless of your political affiliation, if you're as horrified as I and many, many others are,
about the recent raffle of a Glock 23, the same type of deadly weapon that shot Congressmember Gabrielle Giffords, killed her aide Gabe Zimmerman and 5 others including a federal judge and a child, and wounded
11 others on January 8, 2011 in Tucson, for the "fun and profit" of the Pima County Republican Party,
you may have already signed the online petition to the PCRP about it recently.

If not, this is the link:
http://www.signon.org/sign/no-gop-gun-raffle-in?source=homepage.

Now you're invited to come to a rally about it ~ and about civility ~ this Wed. 9/14, 4 - 5:30pm,
at Speedway and Campbell.

Yes, the raffle is over, but the terrible taste remains, and we need to stand together to affirm
the sweetness of life, peace, dignity and mutual respect. Please bring a sign that expresses your feelings
about this!

Please click on this link for more information about the rally, and sign up to attend:

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=277515372275572

TUCSON SAYS YES TO CIVILITY AND NO TO GUN RAFFLE

Hope to see you there! Please bring your own sign and tell your friends too.

http://www.signon.org/sign/no-gop-gun-raffle-in?source=homepage
NO GOP GUN RAFFLE IN TUCSON!!!
www.signon.org

[PavePusher]

1. For the record...

it was not "the same type". It was the same manufacturer, but a different model and calibre.

It was also one that was left over from the previous year's raffle. It was by no means obtained specifically to make a political point.

[Kali]

2. I know

but even if it was a S and W or any other make, a gun raffle this year is pretty damn tasteless. They stupidly have no class so I don't have any problem pointing it out, even though I am about as pro gun as you can get. (I'm also not all that pro-civility when it comes to it, but hey!....:P)

[PavePusher]

4. What's the statute of limitations on this?

What is the acceptable waiting period? The NRA has a raffle at every gun show, should they stop doing so for some undefined period?

Does this apply only to guns, or would it apply to other items used in tragic/criminal circumstances?

I'm not trying to be an asshole, just trying to define the limits here.

[Miss M]

7. Statute of Limitations

Good question. In this particular instance, taking into consideration the factors of the January 8 and the GLOCK handgun used, I would "begin" by suggesting that the time period might last until after the surviving victims' physical wounds had healed and resulting necessary rehabilitative therapies had been successfully concluded. And what about the surviving families of the victims? I believe there's a consideration due them, as well. Also, there's the public sensitivity to consider, which is also still pretty raw.

As for other guns, this effort didn't address that point, but I would encourage handgun fans to review recent studies, like one by Pro-Handgun Experts that Proves That Handguns Are a Dangerous Choice for Self-Defense, and other gun violence statistics. Also, a re-reading of the Second Amendment in context of the time in which it was written may suggest that the arms they referred to are entirely different than the handguns like the GLOCKS available and prevalent today.

I'm glad to read you're not trying to be, shall I say, difficult. Nor am I - just trying to explain my own position in all this.

[Kali]

11. statue of limitations?

uh, I was talking about poor taste and shitty behavior not legalistic regulations. And the issue is the repuke party doing the raffle not the NRA at a gun show.

I don't know what would be an acceptable time period but obviously 8 or so months wasn't enough. C'mon.

A little human sensitivity and common decency in the case of Tucson is not the slippery slope of repealing the 2nd Amendment.

[Miss M]

14. Slippery Slopes

Without a LOT more human sensitivity, common decency, and CIVILITY, "similar to" what is being requested by this petition of the PCRP, this nation's current slide down the slippery slope of insensitivity and indecency in the way its citizenry is treated will result in its rapid "development" (?!) into an uncivilized third world nation!

[Miss M]

3. For the REAL record...

The gun WAS the same "type" - it WAS a GLOCK handgun. If the Pima County GOP had an ounce, a smidgen of regret or remorse, a real apology might have been issued. Not.

In fact, Mike Ebert, a member of the GOP executive committee, said he was happy to see the publicity.
"I knew exactly what it would do," he said. Quite aside from selling out, Ebert said, the publicity energized the base, which is going to be key in the November races. "Anytime you want to challenge First and Second Amendment rights, it's going to get conservatives off their butts."

That you, PavePusher, are not offended merely shows you to be less than sentient* about the well-being of your fellow mankind. *Def: able to feel, perceive or be conscious, or to have subjective experiences.

The rest of us were seriously offended and found it uncivilized. We can do better, and we should. Thus, the rally for Civility in Tucson goes forward.

And by the way, I was the one who started the petition, which over 6,000 signed nation-wide in four short days. And am happy to see the rally posted on Democratic Underground!!

[PavePusher]

5. "...shows you to be less than sentient*..."

Naw, it shows you know nothing about me, but are eager to make unfounded assumptions.

[Miss M]

6. Correct me, then. Please.

I'm sorry. Did I misunderstand. Were you offended by the raffling of the GLOCK? If so, let us hear it. Correct me, please.

It's commonly known that those on the Left are open to hearing new ideas and changing their viewpoints when appropriate...go ahead. I'm listening. (also a liberal habit.)

[PavePusher]

8. Simply because I am not offended about a raffled pistol...

does not indicate that I am lacking in empathy.

May I ask the cite for your quote please? I have not seen that before. If, indeed, the raffle was held for the specifically stated purpose of causing a reaction, that reason would be controversial. The gun itself is an inanimate object, posessing no positive or negative virtues of it's own. Any other conclusion is evidence of Animism, completely outside of reason and basic physics.

There was recently a fatal crash involving an SUV on I10. If someone wanted to raffle a similar but not identical vehicle, in order to make political hay, would that also be offensive? Would it make a difference if the raffle had been planned earlier and/or the vehicle was a left-over from a previous raffle?

[Miss M]

9. Quote and Representation - another meaning

I first read the quote in the Houston Chronicle but was originally posted on the Arizona Star's website at http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/elections/article_8b5dbc5a-c948-5346-ae53-d8332d06e27d.html. Even I was willing to give them the benefit of an afterthought. One was not forthcoming.

The question is a about a little more than "Animism." It's about what the Glock "represented." To answer your question about the SUV on I10: if the fatal crash killed some beloved members of the community, was a one-vehicle, roll-over crash, in a bright-red "Dixon TIMEMACHINE 2-door Sports Edition," and, it turns out that, while widely debated, it has not quite yet been "publicly" accepted that SUVs in general have an extremely high tendency to roll over, then, yes, any raffle, in that general area, for an appropriate while, of similar but not identical...say, a bright-red "DIXON TIMEMACHINE FOUR-door or LUXURY Edition" would be inappropriate. By ANY organization. In my humble opinion.

[tucsonlib]

10. So Are You Saying....

... that if it had been the exact same model and caliber Glock, you would have been offended? Come on now - Only a Glock aficionado could distinguish a .40 cal from a .45 by appearance alone. Glocks all have the same distinct physical characteristics.



This is NOT a 2A issue. It is NOT about gun rights. It's about basic human decency. Auctioning the Glock demonstrated, at the very least, incredibly poor taste and an utter lack of sensitivity.



As for your question about whether there is a "statute of limitations": Well, it's been almost 50 years, and even today I doubt any political party would try to raise funds by auctioning off a Mannlicher-Carcano. Know what I mean?

[PavePusher]

12. Well, you can buy them at some stores.

I guess I just don't buy into inherent symbolism-by-proxy.

[tucsonlib]

13. "Well, you can buy them at some stores"???

Yes. Same is true with Glocks. How is that the least bit relevant? We're talking about a political party raising funds by auctioning off a specific brand of firearm. If you don't find that offensive and in poor taste, then there's nothing more to discuss.

Look - The Pima County GOP could have auctioned off a hunting rifle and nobody would have batted an eye. They knew precisely what they were doing. It was a purposefully crude and boorish act.

We both know that if the object in question had not been a firearm, you never would have bothered to even post a comment. Ask yourself: Why is that?

[Miss M]

15. They Don't Sell Civility at Wally World

tucsonlib, I fully agree, and would only reiterate to PavePusher:

That you, PavePusher, are not offended merely shows you to be less than sentient about the well-being of your fellow mankind. This time, I feel certain I know a lot more about you, and am making NO unfounded assumption.

We can do better, and we should. The rally for Civility in Tucson goes forward.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

16. Re posted for your amusement.

My letter to the Arizona Star published Sept 7 with credit to the DUer who sparked the idea.

"I wonder how the Pima County Republicans would feel if someone raffled off a free abortion? Would they find the idea insensitive? Offensive? They don't seem to understand why people are upset about the Glock. After all, they say, Glocks are legal and lots of people have them. Well, abortions are legal and lots of people have them too, but, you know, some things are just not a good idea no matter how legal they are or how many people have them. Just saying.

For what it's worth, I doubt that I will attend the demonstration. I was supposed to be demonstrating in THE 60's, (and I did) not in MY 60's. Aside from that, I'm sure that you all have noticed by now that if three teabags with miss spelled signs show up anywhere, the corporate media is all over it but if 3,000 progressives show up with good spelling, the media ignores them. When progressives finally figure out that the only way to get the attention of the corporate propaganda machine is to show up on their doorstep, literally blocking the entrance to the Az star or KOLD, then, I will once again drag my poor, aged body out to demonstrate.

[Kali]

17. we get the star almost every day, but I missed that

:thumbsup:

I was struggling to come up with something good - the best I had was a personal x-ray machine after Hiroshima, but it didn't ring well in the post so I skipped it.

[Miss M]

18. Where's the Like Button?!?!

Thanks for re-posting. I love your sense of humor!! There's a lot to be said about that spelling issue, isn't there?! I hope you're right about 3,000 showing up tomorrow, and wrong about the media coverage!! At least, L@@K for it on TV and in the papers, and if it's not there, call and ask them why not!! No one's been able to quiet you yet, and that's a wonderful thing!! You rock, OffWithTheirHeads!! All power to you!

[OffWithTheirHeads]

19. Thank you for your kind words and Welcome to DU.

I'm curious, how did you find us? I've been here since early 2001 and it has changed a lot but I still get the news faster here than from any other source.

As to me, I moved to Tucson last December after most of a lifetime in the S.F. bay area. As you may have noticed, I have been trying to get some traction in the Arizona forum for awhile now without a great deal of success. When I first got here, we joined Drinking Liberally. They asked me if I belonged to Drinking Liberally in San Jose.. I explained to them that if you went out drinking in San Jose, you were drinking liberally. Tucson is a little different, but I like it.

As to them shutting me up, not fucking likely.

Anyway, welcome!

[Miss M]

20. How Did I find you...

Ah- I wrote the SignOn petition after hearing about the glock handgun raffle back on September 1 via - ya know, I'm not sure where I first saw the story...a secondary link while I was on another quest, perhaps. Probably forgot because it caused such a strong reaction in the moment.... Have been following the story since. Wishing them much success at the rally tomorrow ... I look forward to raising a glass to them! Cheers!

[OffWithTheirHeads]

21. well, hell. I guess I need to go to the rally. See you there.

[Miss M]

22. The Rally...

I'll be there in spirit...Tucson's a little too far from Baton Rouge, LA. But one of the rally-goers will be carrying a sign for me that says "Peace Rocks, Not Glocks" Tell her Miss M from Louisiana says, Rock on!! :-)