"Deeply religious woman" shoots herself and two sons in CO Springs

[Democrats_win]

It happened last Sunday and her problems also involved the failed bush economy. Very sad.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/state/article/0,1299,DRMN_21_3727009,00.html

--snip
Mother, one boy dead; second teen in critical condition

COLORADO SPRINGS - A mother shot one son to death, critically injured another, then killed herself not long after being seen at a hospital for threatening suicide.

Friends and neighbors said that Rifkin, a deeply religious woman, struggled with depression. Rifkin told at least one friend that she took medications for bipolar and attention-deficit disorders.

Friends said that Julie Rifkin's personal demons intensified when her husband, Don, was laid off from his computer job at MCI a year or so ago.

[Tux]

1. But

Gays can't get married and a nutty evangelical is pres. Also CEOs are making killer money. I see no problem. :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

This is what people get when they vote based on emotions and fundie religion than information and reason.

[carnie_sf]

2. Many of these "deeply religious" people

seem more like deeply delusional to me.

[Jo March]

4. I don't think that it was her religion

I think that she had many other problems as well. Her mental illness was probably going untreated. I'm sure that as more details come out, we'll find out that she wasn't on her medication for one reason or another.

I'm not saying that many deeply religious people don't have problems. I'm just saying that her religious beliefs are the red herring here.

[heidler1]

9. Isn't the point, she was off her rocker and Religion sounded sane to her.

When her life came down around her this fiction left her defenseless, and as usual God didn't show up to help.

[CO Liberal]

10. According to Local TV Reports....

...that family had gone to four or five different churches in the past few years. The husband lost his job and took one in another state - she was working for a publisher of religious book, and was laid off on Friday.

[Jo March]

15. Whoa. Hold on there. "as usual God didn't show up to help"?

When I was at my worst during a bout of depression, I prayed and prayed to God for help. I received it - in the form of a wonderful doctor who listened to me and regulated my medication to the point where I can function, hold a job and raise my kids.

God shows up to help in many ways - just not always the way that we expect. No, God did not speak to me from a burning bush but I believe that he lead the way for me to the doctor - a doctor whom I would not have found if not for His intervention.

This woman asked for help but she did not get it. God did not fail her. The people around her failed her. Her husband failed her. Her church failed her. Her friends apparently failed her.

People need to understand that God does expect us to help ourselves and help others.

As far as the "fiction" comment - well, it's pretty clear that you do not believe in God. Your absence of faith does not mean that God has failed anyone.

[heidler1]

20. I believe that any help with coping will have to come from other people

In order to claim that someone was helped by God through another person you are claiming that God does exist. When actually that is the crux of the matter. I believe the credit for giving this help should entirely go to that person. To take the unprovable view that God made him do it. Is unfair to the apparent reality of the situation. If someone's depression needs to believe that God did it then to me that person feels compelled to expect others to share that view. To me this is a clear sign of mental illness on the person with the depression. Is this whole Religious thing based on the views of people with mental Illness? It is sad that we have to pursue this to the point of sanity, but it does seem like Bush and the RR have brought us to that point. You might want to do a Goggle search on these three words Mental, Illness and Religion.

I do not believe that this is productive to dwell on, but if a believer thinks that he/she has a valid way to prove that God exists they should expect to hear a rebuttal.

[Jo March]

22. I cannot prove that God exists - that's why it's called "faith"

I understand your post and see your point of view - however, I truly believe that God leads us to people sometimes.

When I was lonely, I prayed to God and asked him to send me someone of faith, someone who would treat me right, be faithful, etc. Two weeks later, I met my husband in the most oddball, can't believe that it happened circumstances. Coincidence? To some, yes. To me, it was an answer to a prayer.

I don't think that I have depression because of my faith or that my faith has caused my depression. I have a chemical imbalance that causes my depression.

I would never say that I can "prove" that God exists. It is something that I feel in my heart to be true. Again, that's why it's called faith.

To say that I'm mentally ill because I believe in God is just as bad as if I said that you are mentally ill because you don't.

[heidler1]

23. Who has the burden of proof? Surely it rests on anyone who brings up

a viewpoint based on an idea, a wish was or even the truth. When Copernicus discovered that the Earth revolves around the Sun he proved it. Galileo agreed and the Church persecuted him for saying it. When Darwin explored the world and wrote The Origin of the Species he had to prove it to the then scientists. Yeah I know that a bunch of people still don't believe it. Creationism, Trickle Down, Saddam's W.M.D., Taxing the rich less and the poor more will end the economic problems, Democracy in Iraq, this is a war on terror because of 9/11 and on and on. That Bush never proved. I submit the notion that we have the right to claim any damn thing with no obligation to prove it is BS. However we have no obligation even try to disprove anyone's religious beliefs.

"To say that I'm mentally ill because I believe in God is just as bad as if I said that you are mentally ill because you don't." If you checked out these three words mental, illness and religion using Goggle there is some evidence that people with minor Mental Illness are more apt to believe in some Religion.

[Jo March]

24. I tend to be wary of those who say that they are 100% certain of anything

WMD is a good example of that.

Again, you can Google and find all types of things that say whatever you need them to say. There are many studies out there, I know, about mental illness and religion. That doesn't sway me one iota.

Just as I respect those who do not believe in God, I ask to be respected as well. You may not believe what I do but for you to try and paint those who believe in God with the "crazy brush" is a bit disheartening.

I have never understood those who have to tear down the beliefs of others in order to make a point. I sincerely hope that is not what you are trying to do here.

I fight those on the right who believe that I can't be a person of faith because I am a liberal. It saddens me to have to fight with those on the left who not only want to ridicule me for my beliefs but would chalk up my beliefs to mental illness, stupidity or self-delusion.

I guess the difference between you and me (one of them anyway) is that I would never try to belittle your beliefs in any way - even in a roundabout way. Insinuating that people who don't believe in God are somehow inferior is something that the right does.

My belief in God, for the record, has nothing to do with my depression. It has to do with a feeling in my heart. Again, it's called faith.

[heidler1]

25. Because * wraps himself in a cloak of fundamentalist Religion he has the

whole country in jeopardy. We as a nation seem very susceptible to going hole hog on a view point that I see as very similar to what Jim Jones did several decades ago. I suspect that we humans could be talked into taking poisoned cool-aid all over again. So this is not just a one up game. They drag out the big guns like Rapture and the second coming. McCarthy used Communism to promote his witch hunt and part of the justification was the Communisms Atheist view. To me the Vietnam War resulted. So you could say we're all a bit crazy.

[Jo March]

26. * and his ilk are NOT Christians

Let me explain: They do not follow the true teachings of Jesus Christ. They simply use the mantle of Christianity to gain power and wealth.

It saddens me that * is not called on his use of faith for political gain. It's like everyone is so scared of being called unpatriotic or unAmerican that they've lost their tongues.

I can see where a nonbeliever would be scared. As a believer, I'mscared.

[CO Liberal]

27. Then You Need To Drive His Ilk Out

Let Bush, Dobson, Falwell, Robertson et al know that they do not speak for you.

[Jo March]

16. I guess I'm deeply delusional then

:hi:

[patrice]

3. There's a lot about Christianity that appears to be a failure, isnt there?

Apparently churches aren't doing what they say they do, maybe that's because they're really just the same rat race as any other business just in nice clothes and bleached teeth, mannacures for everyone!

[Jo March]

5. Sigh. Once again, it's not Christianity that is the failure here

Being a Christian does not make you immune to diseases or mental illness. This woman had a lot of problems. Read the article again. She was bipolar and depressed. I'm sure that had a lot to do with her killing her son and herself.

Christianity is wonderful - I'm a Christian - but I still take medication for my depression. If I come off of my medication, I get depressed. It's that simple.

Come on, folks. Don't blame Christianity for this. It's a tragedy regardless of what happened but the Bible didn't make her do what she did.

[patrice]

7. True it isn't Christianity itself that is the problem.

I was just alluding to the manner in which so many people just tell you to "give it to the Lord" and everything will be okay.

Not so.

We're supposed to help one another and live as joyfully as posssible together. Some things might be different for at least some people if people were paying more attention to what The New Testament means on a one-to-one basis, not so transfixed by illusions.

[Jo March]

14. Sometimes churches want to sweep mental illness under the rug

They think that it looks bad if the faithful are mentally ill. It does not make them look bad. What makes a church (and by association, Christianity) look bad is when the church fails to help the faithful get the help (therapy and medication) that they need.

Sadly, too many people are just told to "let go and let God." This doesn't work for someone who has a chemical imbalance.

[CO Liberal]

11. We'll Never Know For Sure

Remember, that woman who drown her five kids in Texas was a devout Christian, too.

[Jo March]

13. Yes and she too suffered from mental illness

It was the mental illness that made her kill her children, not her belief in God.

In Andrea Yates's case, I think that too many people told her to just rely on God, who would have told her to go and get help, I'm sure. Christ wants us to seek medical help, IMO, and not just sit and suffer.

[CO Liberal]

17. There's a Possibility....

....that some peoples' belief in God gets so distorted that they think that murder-suicide and other drastic measures are their only alternatives.

[Jo March]

18. I agree with that, CO Liberal, to a certain extent

They take what they've heard in church - rely on God, God can solve all of your problems if you are worthy and pray enough, Heaven is where you will feel no pain - and it becomes twisted around in their minds until they commit murder or kill themselves.

A good church would preach to ask for help if you need it because God does not want us to suffer needlessly. A good church would reach out to its flock and help them to get the medical attention that they need.

When you are suicidal, you just want some peace from the self-hatred and pain that goes with it. Heaven seems like the only place to get that peace.



This woman had so many problems but she could have been helped by the right medication, therapy and a good support system. Apparently, she had none of those.

[CO Liberal]

19. Unfortunately, That Requires a Good Church

The Colorado Springs area is loaded with the other "hellfire-and-brimstone" types. Many of which are closely affiliated with James Dobson and FoKKKus On The Family.

[Jo March]

21. I feel for the congregation at those churches

They are missing out on the message of Jesus Christ: love, tolerance and peace.

[MissMarple]

6. Very sad. The older boy died last night. His dad was there.

[CO Liberal]

8. She Was Hospitalized for Depression Friday Night

According to the reports on KVOR this morning, she had told a neighbor that she wanted to get a gun and kill herself. The neighbor told her to think of her sons; and she said she wanted to take them with her.

The neighbor called 911. The cops came and sent her to the hospital to be checked. the hospital released her.

saturday she went to a pwn shop and bought a gun. They did a background check, but apparently her hospital visit the night before did not come up. They sold her a gun.

That night, she shot her two sons as they slept, and then went to her bedroom, where she turned the gun on herself.

[heidler1]

12. This is a very sad story, but I wonder if the percentage of mentally ill

people is higher among the Religious than it is among the non religious. Does any one know. I looked it up using Goggle and found: The limited research that does exist on religious coping among persons with persistent mental illness suggests that it may be a salient and prevalent method for enduring chronic psychiatric symptoms and concomitant life frustrations. Kroll and Sheehan (2) found that 95 percent of the psychiatric inpatients in their study (N=52) professed a belief in God,
There many entries, but the below link seemed best to me: http://ps.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/52/5/660

The gist was that mentally ill people should use religion for help, but the availability of this type of help is poor even in Church.

A question occurred to me. Does a sane person have a right to feel and or act insulted if someone who has a nearly obvious mental problem tries to make this sane person believe the fiction, too? So 95% of the mentally ill believe where as about 80% of the general population believe.