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LET'S TALK MORE ABOUT THE SCHOOL PLAN

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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 09:23 AM
Original message
LET'S TALK MORE ABOUT THE SCHOOL PLAN
I have read some of the previous comments on Baldacci's school plan. I am a public school educator myself and also a parent and property tax payer. But I think I have a pretty objective opinion on this matter. Here it is:

1) Meaningful tax relief MUST happen and MUST happen in a timely manner, especially for middle and working class property tax payers. TABOR (and Palesky before it) was a deeply flawed plan, but TABOR or something like it will pass next time if Augusta doesn't get it done. We can't risk that.

2) The Governor deserves credit for taking bold action and understanding the gravity and urgency of the need to implement tax relief and more economic development. He gets the message. He understands that the people are demanding reform and tax relief and he wants it to happen. While his ed. plan may need to be modified, he has certainly put forth a bold plan to re-structure ed. admin. in Maine which is now operating under a dated model. * The Governor is willing to negotiate as long as we get the savings he wants and that the amount of money he has proposed goes directly back to property tax payers. This is the right general idea.

3) I think that school boards is an area where we can scale back some "local control." While I appreciate any public service, reality is that there are too many school boards and too often you get entrenchment on these school boards which diminishes the best possible oversight and the best fiscal decision-making. I understand that 82% of our schools went over budget last year. The schools are now heavily regulated and funded by the state. That funding will go to 55% and perhaps more. The new plan allows for local advisory boards to maintain local involvement. In other ways there will still be many local CONNECTIONS and involvement such as boosters clubs, parent-teacher organizations, citizen reading programs, and other "town-and-gown" programs and connections between local organizations and the schools. The schools will always have a very local flavor in Maine.

4) I think many of the other ideas in the governor's plan are good such as putting a principal in ALL the school buildings, additional educational technology resources, etc. My two largest questions have to do with how school personnel will be able to in-process and address their pay/benefit and other administrative issues in a timely way without having to take care of these matters remotely, and I would want to know how the plan would impact the delivery of special education administration. *I know many people are also concerned about how the extent of consolidation might impact rural areas. That is a fair concern and something that hopefully can be worked out.

5) I know that the Governor's administration has implemented other state administrative efficiencies. I think the ultimate budget plan that goes to the Governor must likewise include some real change in the school administrative model even if it doesn't go as far as his plan. There is no way to deliver tax relief without, in some way, taking into account education since it is such a huge part of the budget. In addition, I think that the ultimate budget plan should include a comprehensive efficiency and cost cutting plan that is fair and reasonable but also meaningful and effective and which delivers real, tangible tax relief and the chance for additional economic development in Maine. Perhaps some measures such as closing LD1 loopholes, expanding circuit breaker and the homestead exemption, addressing skyrocketing property valuations in some way, streamlining some of the education mandates that drive up the cost of education and create the need for more administration, etc., also need to be part of the mix. Let's work hard to not hurt our most vulnerable people, but let's also be prepared to make some tough decisions and take some bold action.

6) WORK IN A BI-PARTISAN WAY TO GET IT DONE. Mainers want this bigtime!! They are tired of the partisan bickering. That means both sides need to give and take, and in the end create a win-win for Mainers and themselves.

7) The Baldacci plan as now written does eliminate about 600 teachers statewide but THROUGH ATTRITION. No one will be fired. It will mean losing an average of one teacher per school and takes the
student-teacher ratio to 17-1 which is still a VERY GOOD ratio.

8) The teacher's union (of which I am a member so I'm willing to take some amount of issue with them on this one), the superintendents, and the school boards are sending memos home to parents claiming the Baldacci plan will hurt students in many ways. The plan DOES NOT
"hurt" the kids beyond what what I have noted. It is about streamilining administration.

9) Again, WE CAN NOT REDUCE PROPERTY TAXES LONG TERM AND MEANINGFULLY WITHOUT DOING SOMETHING ON EDUCATION (and property valuations). Baldacci's plan may need some tweaking, but he is willing to negotiate and he has had the guts to take on some sacred cows. He deserves that much credit and the general support of those who see the urgent need for property tax relief and WANT property tax relief. It's better to go this way than with something VERY bad like TABOR or, heaven forbid, Palesky. If either of those passed, the classroom would take a REAL hit. Cuts are never easy. Woodcock talked and talked about cutting spending, the R's talk and talk about cutting spending and reducing taxes. OK fellas, TELL US HOW YOU ARE GOING TO DO IT!! Tell us how you cut taxes and spending without upsetting someone.

10) I urge you to urge our state Reps. regardless of party to work together and get the job done. Thanks for reading this.
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4bucksagallon Donating Member (324 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for your point of view. It fills in some of the blanks.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. From what I've heard, I have very deep reservations about this plan as a Portlander.
I'd love to find out what has been published locally isn't true, but somehow I dread that it is. My understanding is that our school district will become disgustingly huge, incorporating neighboring towns. This is stupid as Portland is both large enough to stand on it's own and structural very different from neighboring towns. Most kids here do not need a school bus. Population density is high enough to support local neighborhood schools that are still larger than most schools in the state. Yet my understanding is that the new plan will consolidate where there is no need. Last I read there was even concern that it would force the merging of the two high schools. If that were to happen, I would support our local representatives total abandonment of the plan. I have no interest in seeing one fifth of Maine's population getting screwed on education. Any plan must be designed to function differently for what is in reality two very different Maines.

:shrug:
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I don't think the final product will look like Baldacci's plan as is.
Everyone knows that the final plan will look a lot different, and as I said I too have some questions and don't necessarily think there should be that much consolidation. But also remember that we have 290 school boards served by 152 superintendents. The Bangor superintendent alone gets 130 thousand dollars a year, plus he has an asst. superintendent, a budget director, and two special ed directors. I think Baldacci knew full well that he may not get 26 districts, but after years of the same old same old talk and no action, he actually GAVE THEM a plan to work with. He is willing to compromise. He is insisting on tax relief which many of the same people opposed to the plan ALSO want and are screaching for. So you tell me and ask your reps. who are afraid of the politics: explain how you get property tax relief in Maine with including cost savings in education??????? It can't be done. Something has to give somewhere, or fine, we'll just let TABOR pass next time and then people will REALLY be crying the blues. So you need to ask them what there plan is and HOW it will mean real tax savings.
Also be advised that all across the country there are administrative districts WAY bigger than Maine's, even under Baldacci's plan, and they make it work. And remember too that many of the stories out there, like Special Ed Teachers are going to be fired, etc. IS NOT TRUE!! Let's look at the ENTIRE Baldacci plan, tweak it where needed, but AGREE that something new has to be done education!! Thanks.
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Shorebound Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Question
How did "tax relief" come to mean only property tax relief? One of THE major complaints I'm hearing about the governor's school-consolidation plan is that he's asking local governments to do something the governor himself is unwilling to do at the state level.

I had a heckuvan argument with my (moderate Democratic) neighbor the other day about this. She would not believe that the governor is serious about tax reform or tax relief. Her argument was that every time taxpayers rise against local school budgets, the first thing the superintendent does is threaten to cut the beloved sports program, and she thinks the governor is doing exactly the same thing by offering tax relief by cutting the sacrosanct local control of education.

As for the current plan, IMO it's DOA. Think about how many legislators came to Augusta after serving on their local school boards, and just consider what they must be hearing from their constituents. And serious questions have already been raised -- and NOT by the other side -- about the accuracy of the supposed cost savings. It does no good to eliminate 100-plus superintendents if they are replaced with 100-plus assistant superintendents (see RBInMaine's Bangor example above) earning nearly the same salaries.

I have to confess, I'm having a hard time trying to sell the plan to people whom I thought would be natural supporters. Is this unusual or is anyone else here having the same experience?
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luckyleftyme2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. GOOD QUESTIONS AND GOOD ANSWERS

IT WILL TAKE ALL OUR IDEAS TO MAKE IT WORK. I'M SURE THE GOV. SIMPLY GAVE US A PRELIMINARY
DRAFT OF WHAT HE THINKS THE FINAL OUTCOME WILL BE. HE DOESN'T UNDERESTIMATE THE GRAVITY OF THE SITUATION NOR SHOULD WE UNDERESTIMATE HIS ABILITY AS A LEADER.
ONE THING IS FOR SURE IN THIS DAY AND AGE NONE OF US SHOULD FEEL OUR JOBS ARE SECURE. THIS INCLUDES TEACHERS,PRINCIPALS,SUPERINTENDENTS AND JANITORS ETC. I AM SURE TO LOWER THE PROPERTY TAXES WE NEED TO GET THE BEST BANG FOR OUR BUCK FROM THE SCHOOL BUDGETS. AS WE ALL KNOW THIS TAKES A HEALTHY SLICE OF THE MUNICIPAL AND STATE MONIES.
AND I AGREE IT WILL TAKE BOTH SIDES WORKING TOGETHER TO ACCOMPLISH THIS TASK. AND TO ACCOMPLISH
THIS WE NEED TO LET THE HEADLINE SEEKERS,AND THE MUCKER'S KNOW US TAXPAYERS WANT RELIEF NOT RHETORIC AND POSTURING!
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I have some insights for you here.
This school plan is taking so much heat because it is quite SPECIFIC, unlike TABOR and squawkings from both sides of the aisle about "cutting" or "capping" spending or "providing tax relief" but then almost never, ever getting SPECIFIC about how they are going to do it. 46% voted for TABOR because they are pissing and moaning about their tax rates, but that was easy because Mary Adams and Co. REFUSED to tell us just what they would like to see CUT!! They lie and say it is a "tax cap" and not a "cut" which is pure sematical horsecrap. The R's also talk about "cutting spending" by "limiting growth". More semantical horsecrap! Of course they all know it means CUTS. They are just too politically cowardly to say exactly WHAT will be CUT. (And way too many Dems are just as damn guilty!!) So the first thing I do is tell people this, then I ask them "If you don't like Baldacci's idea, and you are willing to agree that it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to cut the budget without taking SOMETHING from education (it's 50% of the budget), then WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST WE CUT SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE YOUR TAX RELIEF??????????" And then they start thinking, BIGTIME. I tell them that if they don't like Baldacci's idea, and they MUST agree that any budget cutting MUST somehow involve education (at least to an extent), then they better darn well understand that if we don't do something ourselves then next time around TABOR WILL PASS, and then you better darn well get ready for some REAL education CUTS!! In other words, get ready to pay $200 fees to have your kids play soccer and to buy your kids good winter coats because they'll need them in math class! (Virtually what happened under TABOR in Colorado. Education got HAMMERED!!) Mainers can be a very annoying bunch. They are drunk like sailors on "local control" and the local HS basketball team's needs, but then they also want to bitch and whine incessently about Maine's terrible tax burden and that we have to cut taxes. Well by God, MAKE THEM TELL YOU EXACTLY WHAT SPENDING THEY WANT TO CUT, WHETHER IT IS IN EDUCATION OR SOME OTHER AREA!! Then they look at you stonefaced scratching their heads!! And you say, "So please don't go blasting Baldacci until you have a better SPECIFIC plan and then please call me when you do. I'd honestly like to hear your SPECIFIC ideas." This is what I told some Baldacci plan bashers just this morning, and they got very quiet and walked away THINKING. Now, on some of your other points:
1) Mainers are concerned about all taxes, but ESPECIALLY the property tax because they have risen so much and take the largest bites at once during the course of the year. 2) Sure, there should be other savings besides just in education. Baldacci has done administrative efficiencies in other departments, is consolidating two departments into one, reducing state employees through attrition, etc. Sure, more can be done. I advocate a COMPREHENSIVE package, BUT I also fully acknowledge that education MUST be PART of the mix because there is no way it can't be, and I give Baldacci credit for taking on some sacred cows. 3) I think Baldacci knew from the beginning that he would not get his WHOLE plan, but I bet that some kind of education savings IS part of the final package. So there you have it.
*** You are knowledgable. I'd like to hear YOUR ideas on how to cut the budget. BE SPECIFIC PLEASE. I'd really like to know.*** THANKS
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Shorebound Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. My cuts
Edited on Wed Feb-21-07 12:15 PM by Shorebound
"You are knowledgable. I'd like to hear YOUR ideas on how to cut the budget. BE SPECIFIC PLEASE. I'd really like to know."

Local education budget: Eliminate all extracurricular sports programs, let sports teams be organized through the local YMCAs or sports clubs, as they do in Europe. I would also take a close look at special education programs. Classroom teachers are using special ed as a dump site for students they're not willing to handle on their own -- kids who need discipline, in other words, rather than kids with genuine learning disabilities. It's a disservice to the students who need the help.

With sports eliminated, rewrite state Education Department requirements for new schools to require them to be located in town so some segment of the school population can walk to school. (I've heard too many superintendents say "all students will be bused to the new school" as if it's some kind of accomplishment rather than a sign of failure.) Under the current rules, the requirements for so much land for sports fields demands that ALL new schools be built outside town or city limits. Then rewrite the state school construction rules to offer the same level of state support for rehabilitating and rebuilding existing schools as it offers for construction of new schools. (Frex: Belfast abandoned Crosby Junior High School because it was actually cheaper to the locals to build an entirely new school with state aid way outside the city than it was to rehab the old building in town for a lot less public money but with more of it coming from local pockets. The same was true with the old Brunswick High School.)

That's a start. Specific enough?

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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. THANKS! Interesting. Now I can respond to your cutting ideas.
Thanks Shorebound. Much appreciated. Yes, plenty specific enough.

If you think Baldacci's admin. consolidation ideas are taking heat, if he had suggested eliminating sports teams they'd literally want his head on a platter. I am a track coach myself and I work part time for one of the HS basketball tournament venues. The unrelenting POWER of sports in our culture is phenomenal. If half the energy that parents and others put into sports went into good discipline and homework, MANY of the schools' (and society's) problems would be solved. It's absolutely unreal. I am a great advocate of sports and all other extra curriculars, but I at least agree that parents need to foot more of the bill if they want all these teams. That means setting up more boosters clubs and having more private fundraisers to offset all this cost.
* Back during the late 1970's gas crunch, there was a proposal to scrap the football program at my hometown high school to save money. The team was never really much good, and we also had cross country and soccer which would remain since they were cheaper to run. THE COMMUNITY WENT BULLSHIT! HUNDREDS of people went to the schoolboard meetings on this to protest, there were tons of letters to the editor opposing it, petitions were circulated, etc. and they caved quick and kept the program. Good luck trying to get rid of school-based sports in Maine.

I love the idea of the smaller neighborhood schools, but reality now is that they want to consolidate locally to save many of the other costs (including admin., utilities, maintenance, etc.) which is why the new schools are being built larger to consolidate the old smaller schools. It is expensive for a town/city to maintain multiple schools. Many Maine schools share principals. Larger schools put all the grades and admin. under one roof. But as you say that also means needing space for sports fields which WILL NEVER GO AWAY. Even the smaller neighborhood schools still require transportation services, especially for the little kids, and parents insist on this. We also have to remember that the rural schools will also always need transportation, so those new schools should certainly be consolidated.

As to the special ed. piece, under I.D.E.A. (Individuals with Disabalities Act - both state and federal), if a kid has a classified diagnosis (and there are many - everything from attention deficit disorder to mental retardation), then that student has the right to receive special education services. So those kids that you say are "behavioral problems" in school can qualify for some amount of special ed. services if they have a special ed. diagnosis, PERIOD! And parents can raise hell, to the point of threatenting lawsuits, insisting on this. If the kid is a behavioral problem but doesn't have a diagnosis, then he remains in the regular classroom and is subject to discipline from teachers and admin. Some kids who fall under special ed. who are still behavioral problems in their resource rooms and/or mainstream classrooms are still subject to discipline, but believe me that it is often a much harder road to travel to get something done with them. If a kid is bad enough and has to be removed from the school, often the system still have to provide tutoring, or another placement, or some other kind of alternative plan. Yes, the umbrella of special ed. has widened dramatically in recent decades, and it is VERY expensive. But it is the law. One could try to argue that we are over-diagnosing kids, but that is up to the Ph.D.'s and other specialists who are doing the assessing and diagnosing, but it is something for states to look at. There are also what are called 504 services for kids with disabilities that don't otherwise affect their abilitiy to learn (i.e. smart kids that may have a physical disability, but they still get accommodation services, etc). Kids under I.D.E.A. or 504 special ed. receive teacher aide support,
self-contained classes, resource room support and services, speech therapy, physical therapy, occupational therapy, special phys ed classes, resource room support, special transportation, etc. etc. It also requires more layers of admin. and clerical support. Some of the sp. ed. files are INCHES thick! Every sp. ed. student gets an indivualized plan that requires periodic meetings to update. It's ethical and right to do, but also VERY expensive and requires vast resources. BUT, with state and federal I.D.E.A. mandates the services MUST be provided.

Again, some of my cost saving ideas: Consolidate admin. and purchasing functions where practicable in education; As I said above, trim extra curricular budgets and increase town/school connections to offset these costs through added private fundraising; Close LD1 loopholes to increase local budgeting efficiencies; Streamline state ed. mandates (i.e. permanently eliminate the foolish local common assessment system, trim down the volume of learning results indicators to better focus on critical basic skills, etc.); deal with skyrocketing property valuations in some way and/or the proper adjustment of local mill rates; consolidate admin. functions wherever possible across all state departments; consider expanding circuit breaker and homestead exemption; implement zero-based budgeting models, especially in local government, to find ways to squeeze out waste; in the long run, healthcare and energy costs MUST be addressed. We could talk about how best to get those done forever. Looking forward to your response.
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luckyleftyme2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. SHORE BOUND
Edited on Thu Feb-22-07 10:22 AM by luckyleftyme2
AS A PAST DEPT. HEAD I CAN TELL YOU THATS THE OLDEST TRICK IN THE BOOK;RBI IS CORRECT ALL IT WILL DO IS MUDDY THE WATER!
SAME AS INCREASING YOUR BUDGET 10% SO THE SELECTMEN CAN CUT IT!
ONE AREA THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED IS THE EXCESSIVE BUSING,MANY OF THESE ROUTES CAN BE ADJ.
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